super vs turbo

u prelude owners supercharge ur car or turbo it? if ya havent done either one what would ya like to have? or just keep it n/a? i was thinkin of doin it to my car... greedy turbo or jackson super

Use the search function, this discussion has come up a number of times

if i had the money, i would get a supercharger... i feel its more reliable than a turbo

go with the turbo its just straight hp wheres a super charger takes hp to make hp

each has its advantages and disadvantages to the other.

i had a jrsc on my lude. loved it. the instant power is definately a big plus for the supercharger. at times you'd forget it was a high revving 4 banger under the hood coz it certainly felt much torquier.

now, i have a turbocharged car (not a prelude but same principle). and for less than $500, i was able to get an additional 30hp. try that with a supercharger.

so you can see some of the things that make one better than the other and worse than the other.

the supercharger is ideal for bigger engines and the turbo is ideal for the smaller engines. the added power is delivered where it counts on each application.

Use the search function, this discussion has come up a number of times

How have you been here long enough to know if it's "Come Up a number of times.?"

Simply telling the person to use the search function sometimes defeats the purpose of even posting.

On Topic:
There is a Fine Difference between FI (SC/TC) and N/A. Always remember that you can't just "Bolt-On" a Supercharger or a Turbo and expect your motor to last. There is ALOT of perperation work to be done. N/A is cheeper, but Turbo/SC gives you more power. Here's a spiel on how to build your motor for FI and have it LAST.

I guess I'll start off as I usually do in these posts with my disclaimer. I'm not a master engine builder, I'm not some numbers pimp with a degree in bench racing and spec quoting. I'm a real live person, with real life experience. I've played with Preludes for years, I've owned them, torn them apart, built them, broken them, and I love them. What I post here is mostly my thoughts. Educated thoughts of others will differ in some areas, and I highly encourage them at all times. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Like I tell people all the time, a Honda is only reliable until you break the motor open. Once you do that it's a dice game. For some reason we have reliability fairies in our H22's that come from the factory, and if you crack it apart and take the guts out, the fairy escapes.

The clearances that Honda's run on are notoriously tight, and this is why it's important to have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING build your motor. It's ALSO very important to choose someone who HAS EXPERIENCE IN HIGH PERFORMANCE HONDA'S work on your car. Regular mechanics who work on 350's, or who change out stock parts will end up wth a product that is less than perfect. It's nothing against them, it's just they don't understand that there is a difference when building a motor.

I'm not saying that when you build your motor it's going to fall apart in 10k miles, because it's VERY possible to make them last. I'm just telling you that when you step off the ledge into "modded land," you can't go back.

Something WILL happen that isn't expected. Plan for it. Oil leak, engine code... something, at some point in time will happen. You can't modify a car and still expect it to act stock in all other aspects.

On to the tips.

Reliability and longevity count on two basic things: Sticking to the basics, and having someone build it CORRECTLY. When building a motor to run for a while, just keep things simple. No number games, no drastic changes. Take the motor and just make it stronger.

When you build a motor for FI, take some things into mind. Number one high compression is your enemy, but low compression makes streetability 'nill. The key is to find a happy medium. Our motors were built from the factory to run NA, and now you have to combat that to turbo your car.

Compression:
TurboSam ran 10:1 on forged pistons when turbo'd. It worked. I also know other people who have done this. It makes tuning a LOT more important, but it also keeps an element of driveability in the car. 9.5:1 is also a very popular combination, it gives you a little leeway on how much boost you want to run. I run 8:1, but my bottom end power is ASS, and I always aim for something like... oh... 30psi for top speed runs. I recomend 8:1 for most people like I recomend a bullet to the head.

So you have your choice there, but if you want durability I'm going to say 9.5:1 compression.

Pistons:
Forged pistons are really the only choice if you want to do this. There are people who run Type S pistons, or stock pistons or other combinations... good for them. If you want something built to take some pressure, then go forged. JE and Arias are two I always suggest. I run Arias, and I love them. There are others, Wiesco etc, and I haven't heard bad things from them. So the choice is yours. I always just drop the extra cash on something I know and trust. No need to change now.

Sleeving:
Yeah, this argument has been raging for the better part of a decade. I'm not even going to step off into this, everyone knows my stance. I sleeve ALL my motors. It's stronger, it works, it's proven. Durable FI motor: sleeve it.

Rods:
Saenz Rods are the shizznit. They are the one thing I've never managed to damage no matter how damn hard I try. Since the chances of getting those are slim and they're a custom item for these motors anyway, then I say Crower. Maybe JUN. You can always run Eagle, they seem pretty reliable. Take your pick... mainstream forged rods are like women, they're a dime a dozen, and everyone has different preferences. DON'T run stock rods. You have your motor apart, and make use of it. Stronger rods rock when turning up the boost.

Stroking or De-stroking:
Don't bother. It messes with the factory proven geometry. Again, leave it for the brave and the rich... and the ones with something else to drive.

Knifedging the crank:
Same thing as above. Limited gains and you chop up something you want to be VERY strong. I say no for a street car.

Have your entire rotating assembly balanced
That wasn't really an entire thought on it's own, it just needed to be bold for some reason.

Boring:
I change my mind on this like I change my socks... (about once a month) There is a lot to be said for leaving things as they are at 87mm. It keeps with my theory of staying simple and staying strong, but it also loses out on some potential displacment. So I'll go ahead and say just stick with 87 or 88mm. 89mm is the highest you should go for something like this if you do bore it out. There is a risk of hairline fractures between the sleeves at the top of the block, but it's miminal.

Bearings:
Lots of people use stock Honda bearings. I do too. They work, they are meant for these motors, and ... well ... they work. Run tight clearances. Looser wears down faster. Always replace them when tearing a motor down.

Headwork:
Oh the chapters I could write on this. Theory for this extends farther than the bullshit in the kills forum. I'm going to stick to what you want to know.

Porting and polishing:
Have it done ONLY BY A PROFESSIONAL. Someone who has spent months with Honda heads on a flowbench. I say Portflow just cause they haven't pissed me off yet.

Valves:
Bore them 1/2mm, and toss in some stainless steel valves. They take heat better, and are stronger. Nitrite coatings etc.... do it if you want. I've done both ways and haven't had trouble with either. I see no reason for it on a street motor though.

Valvetrain:
STRONGER valvesprings and retainers are a must. Whoever builds your head will have a preference on these and on valves. Go with what they tell you, after all, they're building your head.

Massive reshaping and radical headwork:
for the street. Leave the ragged edge for those who want to go fast. You want to have a motor 20k miles from now.

Cams:
Ditch the stock cams. They're worthless for boost. Crower, JUN, or Webcams. I trust them. Call them up and have them help pick out a profile that will best suit your setup once you have it set out.

Headgasket:
No lower or higher compression head gaskets. Change compression through pistons, not headgaskets.

ECU:
Hondata or full standalone. AEM, DFI, etc... these work great, but they have to be tuned correctly. Hondata probably has a little better street sense to it. Either way, tune it. See TUNING below.

Tuning:
TUNE YOUR MOTHERF(*&ING CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dyno time is essential. Do it or I'll kick you in the junk. End of story...

Accessories:
-FPR: Anything other than a B&M... they suck.
I use the AEM and the AEM fuel rail. It's a common combo, and it works.
-Fuel pump: Upgrade it. Go a little bigger than you need if you want, the right FPR should be able to still turn the volume down.
-Injectors: 400-450cc will be fine. Stock can work, but it's safer with some larger ones.
-Cam gears: Never a bad idea. See TUNING.
-Stainless steel braided hoses: a must. Use them whenever possible.
-Moroso oil pan: Good bolt-on item for the simple fact everything is already tapped for you. Oil leaks are a BEEYATCH.

I could go on for days... just use your head on this.

Turbo Kit:
Drag, Fmax, custom... I don't care. If it's well thought out, and complete, it'll work. Don't try to put together your own unless you have experience. Don't let a shop put one together for you unless they've done that setup before. A simple t3/t4, a nice intercooler, and GOOD PIPING AND CONNECTORS are a basis for a good kit. Tial wastegate, and HKS BOV are good choices. Boost controllers are a necessity, and turbo timers will help save you trouble in the long run.

Gauges:
The more the merrier. You CAN'T have too many.
The ones you want in order of what I believe to be greatest to least:
-A/F
-Boost
-Oil Pressure
-EGT
-Fuel Pressure
-Water Temp
-Oil Temp

Carrying spare parts:
Always have hose clamps of all sizes, vacuum hoses, JB Weld, and your Helms manual. Phillips head and flat head, and I suggest a 3/8 drive socket set with extension and at least two regular 10mm sockets, and a deep 10mm socket.

Your Part in things:
Be active in your buildup. Read, think, explore. Don't be afraid to ask the shop some questions. If they recomend something over another, ask why. Don't be rude, but let them know that your car is something that is important enough for you to make extra effort with. Learn how things work. This is invaluable experience for you and your future as a modified Prelude owner.

Savings Account:
The smartest thing you could EVER do for yourself is set aside $500-$1000 in an account for a rainy day. Small things, big things, who cares. BE PREPARED. This is the KEY to keeping your car on the road. It's PARAMOUNT that if something small goes wrong, you take care of it and take care of it CORRECTLY. Not just "a temporary fix till I get more funds." This mentality kills cars.

*the end*

Ok, I left a lot out, and I know it. There's only so much you can type out before you go crosseyed, plus after a while people quit reading.

TO SUM IT UP:
----------------Cliff notes---------------------

Keep it basic, keep it strong. Tune the crap out of it. Have it built by known and highly reputable shops. Always carry spare parts and some basic tools. Do research: KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Detonation, oil leaks, engine codes. Read up on others problems and symptoms so when it happens to you, you can asses the situation better.

Hope that helped a little. As always, EDUCATED thoughts differing from my own (as long as reasoning and experience is included in the post) are ALWAYS welcome in my threads. I encourage discussion, and everyone can always learn something new. Even me.

What, no credit? This article came from HT, from the very bright Lone Luder.

In any case, NA is hardly cheaper than Turbo. If anything it is the more expensive of the two. As long as you're running mild boost and not flooring it like a goddamn idiot at every stoplight, it will last. I am starting to lean towards superchargers now that I have driven in a supercharged 5th gen Prelude. As Del said, instant power *is* incredible, and supercharge would be insane if you are an Autocrosser. Turbos are reserved for the drag types who have time to spool up their turbos to get good 1/4 mile ETs. A large turbo versus a large supercharger would get wasted in a 0-60.

What, no credit? This article came from HT, from the very bright Lone Luder.

Entirely sorry, I thought that I had mentioned it. Though I never said it was my spiel. Thanks for teh Heads Up.:)

-Brian

yikes lotta things to take into consideration... im gonna do a jdm swap pretty soon because mileage gettin real high and im just afraid to ruin it real fast. but then i hear about turboed ludes smokeing M3s and thats what got me thinkin about forced induction.hey everybody dreams of having more power... oooohh and the sound of the BOV too awsome!

What, no credit? This article came from HT, from the very bright Lone Luder.

In any case, NA is hardly cheaper than Turbo. If anything it is the more expensive of the two. As long as you're running mild boost and not flooring it like a goddamn idiot at every stoplight, it will last. I am starting to lean towards superchargers now that I have driven in a supercharged 5th gen Prelude. As Del said, instant power *is* incredible, and supercharge would be insane if you are an Autocrosser. Turbos are reserved for the drag types who have time to spool up their turbos to get good 1/4 mile ETs. A large turbo versus a large supercharger would get wasted in a 0-60.

I didn't think they made a supercharger for the 4th gen preludes. Did you find one or are you going to do a custom one? Just curious, because I'd love to supercharge mine.

yikes lotta things to take into consideration... im gonna do a jdm swap pretty soon because mileage gettin real high and im just afraid to ruin it real fast. but then i hear about turboed ludes smokeing M3s and thats what got me thinkin about forced induction.hey everybody dreams of having more power... oooohh and the sound of the BOV too awsome!

You don't have to do any of those things if you are planning on low boost. This means below 7psi, 6 @ daily driven is optimal. And besides, Lone Luder is talking about boring/P&P's/valvesprings; none of which is absolutely required. The primary concern for a higher boosting H22A lies with 1) compression and 2) internal integrity. Rods, the weak FRM lining of the stock sleeves, and the pistons. You only need this if you are wanting Eclipse-like boost levels (+15psi) and higher.

I drove in a supercharged 5th gen. However, there is a guy who has a conversion kit for the JRSC for the 4th gen. He sells the converted JRSC as a full package. You should be able to find him on a google search, I've forgotten his name right now.

so a turbo would be more expensive in the long run eh? all the other stuff needed to make the turbo stable..

yah turbo might cost more but you can run a big turbo (td06sh-20g or gt3037s pro turbo w/ 1.7 bar or 24.95 max psi u have to make custom kit) you can daily drive it at 6 psi and still run around 260hp and on the weekends (at the track) boost it as high as you decide and pull up to 620hp!!! yes cost's more but in the long run it is most definitly the way togo for killer hp and if you race for cash and keep the car up you'll make the cash back and more.

To answer ProjectPhantom's question first, no. In the long run, a naturally aspirated setup would cost significantly more to extract the same amounts of horsepower. Turbo/Superchargers cost roughly the same initially.

yah turbo might cost more but you can run a big turbo (td06sh-20g or gt3037s pro turbo w/ 1.7 bar or 24.95 max psi u have to make custom kit) you can daily drive it at 6 psi and still run around 260hp and on the weekends (at the track) boost it as high as you decide and pull up to 620hp!!! yes cost's more but in the long run it is most definitly the way togo for killer hp and if you race for cash and keep the car up you'll make the cash back and more.

You can't use a 20G on an H22A, nor would you want to. It doesn't fit (a 14G hardly does, and that's still only speculation), and it does not flow as well as any Garrett hybrid. Going to 25PSI will shoot a rod out of your block quicker than a bullet.

dude with a fully built block with sleeves it works ive seen it done.and bout the 20g with some modifications you can actually put under your hood!

dude with a fully built block with sleeves it works ive seen it done.and bout the 20g with some modifications you can actually put under your hood!

It may have worked, but it isn't practical. The motor won't or didn't last very long probebly. It may sound nice, but it just isn't practicle.

-Brian

no not practical but sounds like alot of fun to drive

It's not so much that its not practical, it's that it *physically will not fit*. A tiny 14G will rub up against the block fairly deeply. Let's see some pictures.

it wasn't a 20g it was a gt3037s pro turbo from the HKS lineup and i'm srry don't have pics but i'll find some so cill and stop telling me i'm wrong

i'd go with turbo...yeah so a turbo takes time to spool up ? so what with modern turbos lag is almost history...that is if you use a fairly small turbo of course..and then theres gas milage....with a turbo when your just cruising down the highway the turbo wont be spooled thus better gas milage...with a supercharger boost is always there (which is nice for autocrossing) but goin down the highway you'll get worse gas milage....so it really depends what kinda racing your gonna do.....and your budget.....Turbo=More effiecient and better for drag racing.....Supercharger=Power on demand and great for autocross.....

ONCE AGAIN... dont bring up DEAD threads!

is it really worth it??

cost of my used 97 prelude: $10k
estimated cost of heavy build-up: ~$8-10k+

vs.

cost of used '8x camaro with 350 or LT1: ~$1.5k
cost of heavy engine buildup ~$5-8k

==================================
lude hp: ~400hp
camaro hp: ~700+hp

i've said it once, i'll say it again...its not worth putting heavy wads of cash into 4 bangers. and trust me, i love my prelude, but seriously, its not worth it. think about it.

How have you been here long enough to know if it's "Come Up a number of times.?"

Simply telling the person to use the search function sometimes defeats the purpose of even posting.

On Topic:
There is a Fine Difference between FI (SC/TC) and N/A. Always remember that you can't just "Bolt-On" a Supercharger or a Turbo and expect your motor to last. There is ALOT of perperation work to be done. N/A is cheeper, but Turbo/SC gives you more power. Here's a spiel on how to build your motor for FI and have it LAST.

I guess I'll start off as I usually do in these posts with my disclaimer. I'm not a master engine builder, I'm not some numbers pimp with a degree in bench racing and spec quoting. I'm a real live person, with real life experience. I've played with Preludes for years, I've owned them, torn them apart, built them, broken them, and I love them. What I post here is mostly my thoughts. Educated thoughts of others will differ in some areas, and I highly encourage them at all times. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Like I tell people all the time, a Honda is only reliable until you break the motor open. Once you do that it's a dice game. For some reason we have reliability fairies in our H22's that come from the factory, and if you crack it apart and take the guts out, the fairy escapes.

The clearances that Honda's run on are notoriously tight, and this is why it's important to have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING build your motor. It's ALSO very important to choose someone who HAS EXPERIENCE IN HIGH PERFORMANCE HONDA'S work on your car. Regular mechanics who work on 350's, or who change out stock parts will end up wth a product that is less than perfect. It's nothing against them, it's just they don't understand that there is a difference when building a motor.

I'm not saying that when you build your motor it's going to fall apart in 10k miles, because it's VERY possible to make them last. I'm just telling you that when you step off the ledge into "modded land," you can't go back.

Something WILL happen that isn't expected. Plan for it. Oil leak, engine code... something, at some point in time will happen. You can't modify a car and still expect it to act stock in all other aspects.

On to the tips.

Reliability and longevity count on two basic things: Sticking to the basics, and having someone build it CORRECTLY. When building a motor to run for a while, just keep things simple. No number games, no drastic changes. Take the motor and just make it stronger.

When you build a motor for FI, take some things into mind. Number one high compression is your enemy, but low compression makes streetability 'nill. The key is to find a happy medium. Our motors were built from the factory to run NA, and now you have to combat that to turbo your car.

Compression:
TurboSam ran 10:1 on forged pistons when turbo'd. It worked. I also know other people who have done this. It makes tuning a LOT more important, but it also keeps an element of driveability in the car. 9.5:1 is also a very popular combination, it gives you a little leeway on how much boost you want to run. I run 8:1, but my bottom end power is ASS, and I always aim for something like... oh... 30psi for top speed runs. I recomend 8:1 for most people like I recomend a bullet to the head.

So you have your choice there, but if you want durability I'm going to say 9.5:1 compression.

Pistons:
Forged pistons are really the only choice if you want to do this. There are people who run Type S pistons, or stock pistons or other combinations... good for them. If you want something built to take some pressure, then go forged. JE and Arias are two I always suggest. I run Arias, and I love them. There are others, Wiesco etc, and I haven't heard bad things from them. So the choice is yours. I always just drop the extra cash on something I know and trust. No need to change now.

Sleeving:
Yeah, this argument has been raging for the better part of a decade. I'm not even going to step off into this, everyone knows my stance. I sleeve ALL my motors. It's stronger, it works, it's proven. Durable FI motor: sleeve it.

Rods:
Saenz Rods are the shizznit. They are the one thing I've never managed to damage no matter how damn hard I try. Since the chances of getting those are slim and they're a custom item for these motors anyway, then I say Crower. Maybe JUN. You can always run Eagle, they seem pretty reliable. Take your pick... mainstream forged rods are like women, they're a dime a dozen, and everyone has different preferences. DON'T run stock rods. You have your motor apart, and make use of it. Stronger rods rock when turning up the boost.

Stroking or De-stroking:
Don't bother. It messes with the factory proven geometry. Again, leave it for the brave and the rich... and the ones with something else to drive.

Knifedging the crank:
Same thing as above. Limited gains and you chop up something you want to be VERY strong. I say no for a street car.

Have your entire rotating assembly balanced
That wasn't really an entire thought on it's own, it just needed to be bold for some reason.

Boring:
I change my mind on this like I change my socks... (about once a month) There is a lot to be said for leaving things as they are at 87mm. It keeps with my theory of staying simple and staying strong, but it also loses out on some potential displacment. So I'll go ahead and say just stick with 87 or 88mm. 89mm is the highest you should go for something like this if you do bore it out. There is a risk of hairline fractures between the sleeves at the top of the block, but it's miminal.

Bearings:
Lots of people use stock Honda bearings. I do too. They work, they are meant for these motors, and ... well ... they work. Run tight clearances. Looser wears down faster. Always replace them when tearing a motor down.

Headwork:
Oh the chapters I could write on this. Theory for this extends farther than the bullshit in the kills forum. I'm going to stick to what you want to know.

Porting and polishing:
Have it done ONLY BY A PROFESSIONAL. Someone who has spent months with Honda heads on a flowbench. I say Portflow just cause they haven't pissed me off yet.

Valves:
Bore them 1/2mm, and toss in some stainless steel valves. They take heat better, and are stronger. Nitrite coatings etc.... do it if you want. I've done both ways and haven't had trouble with either. I see no reason for it on a street motor though.

Valvetrain:
STRONGER valvesprings and retainers are a must. Whoever builds your head will have a preference on these and on valves. Go with what they tell you, after all, they're building your head.

Massive reshaping and radical headwork:
for the street. Leave the ragged edge for those who want to go fast. You want to have a motor 20k miles from now.

Cams:
Ditch the stock cams. They're worthless for boost. Crower, JUN, or Webcams. I trust them. Call them up and have them help pick out a profile that will best suit your setup once you have it set out.

Headgasket:
No lower or higher compression head gaskets. Change compression through pistons, not headgaskets.

ECU:
Hondata or full standalone. AEM, DFI, etc... these work great, but they have to be tuned correctly. Hondata probably has a little better street sense to it. Either way, tune it. See TUNING below.

Tuning:
TUNE YOUR MOTHERF(*&ING CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dyno time is essential. Do it or I'll kick you in the junk. End of story...

Accessories:
-FPR: Anything other than a B&M... they suck.
I use the AEM and the AEM fuel rail. It's a common combo, and it works.
-Fuel pump: Upgrade it. Go a little bigger than you need if you want, the right FPR should be able to still turn the volume down.
-Injectors: 400-450cc will be fine. Stock can work, but it's safer with some larger ones.
-Cam gears: Never a bad idea. See TUNING.
-Stainless steel braided hoses: a must. Use them whenever possible.
-Moroso oil pan: Good bolt-on item for the simple fact everything is already tapped for you. Oil leaks are a BEEYATCH.

I could go on for days... just use your head on this.

Turbo Kit:
Drag, Fmax, custom... I don't care. If it's well thought out, and complete, it'll work. Don't try to put together your own unless you have experience. Don't let a shop put one together for you unless they've done that setup before. A simple t3/t4, a nice intercooler, and GOOD PIPING AND CONNECTORS are a basis for a good kit. Tial wastegate, and HKS BOV are good choices. Boost controllers are a necessity, and turbo timers will help save you trouble in the long run.

Gauges:
The more the merrier. You CAN'T have too many.
The ones you want in order of what I believe to be greatest to least:
-A/F
-Boost
-Oil Pressure
-EGT
-Fuel Pressure
-Water Temp
-Oil Temp

Carrying spare parts:
Always have hose clamps of all sizes, vacuum hoses, JB Weld, and your Helms manual. Phillips head and flat head, and I suggest a 3/8 drive socket set with extension and at least two regular 10mm sockets, and a deep 10mm socket.

Your Part in things:
Be active in your buildup. Read, think, explore. Don't be afraid to ask the shop some questions. If they recomend something over another, ask why. Don't be rude, but let them know that your car is something that is important enough for you to make extra effort with. Learn how things work. This is invaluable experience for you and your future as a modified Prelude owner.

Savings Account:
The smartest thing you could EVER do for yourself is set aside $500-$1000 in an account for a rainy day. Small things, big things, who cares. BE PREPARED. This is the KEY to keeping your car on the road. It's PARAMOUNT that if something small goes wrong, you take care of it and take care of it CORRECTLY. Not just "a temporary fix till I get more funds." This mentality kills cars.

*the end*

Ok, I left a lot out, and I know it. There's only so much you can type out before you go crosseyed, plus after a while people quit reading.

TO SUM IT UP:
----------------Cliff notes---------------------

Keep it basic, keep it strong. Tune the crap out of it. Have it built by known and highly reputable shops. Always carry spare parts and some basic tools. Do research: KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Detonation, oil leaks, engine codes. Read up on others problems and symptoms so when it happens to you, you can asses the situation better.

Hope that helped a little. As always, EDUCATED thoughts differing from my own (as long as reasoning and experience is included in the post) are ALWAYS welcome in my threads. I encourage discussion, and everyone can always learn something new. Even me.


NICE ESSAY...