S4 vs. M3 (E36)

Tried and true battle of Audi vs. BMW...now most ppl will say right off the bat that the M3 is the winner...but you must look beyond and realize that these cars are more closely matched than that...

S4
2.7 Liter Biturbo V6
AWD
250HP
258 lbs. of torque
6 spd manual
0-60 in 5.6 seconds
93.6 bhp per liter
Brake Size: 12.6 F/11.8 R
Curb weight 3300 lbs.

M3
3.2 Liter Inline 6
RWD
240HP
236 lbs. of torque
5 spd manual
0-60 in 5.5 seconds
76.14 bhp per liter
Brake Size: 12.4 F/12.3 R
Curb weight 3150 lbs.

Brag all you want about the last BMW M3. Hey, we sure did. Profess about its being the king of compact sport coupes/sedans. But the fact is that the previous E36-platform M3 gets flat-out trounced in just about every way by the new E46-based design. How? Thanks to a thrilling new 3.2L DOHC inline-six that delivers a sky-high 8000-rpm redline, 333 serious horsepower, and a torque curve flatter than Kansas. Don't forget its wider-track, larger-rubber, race-inspired brakes and redesigned suspension. Factor in a more aggressive look and upgraded interior appointments, and you begin to get an inkling of what the '01 M3 is all about. (Motor Trend)
The M3 is much better than the S4. More power, better styling, and an awesome car platform thats soo balanced. I think the M3 kicks major ass.

motor trend would be right in saying that the e46 is way better than the e36. but anyways, i would have thought the S4 would make to 60 faster than that because of the AWD, and i was initially going to say the S4. But after reading that the M3 is faster to 60, the M3 definately takes the cake. I think its styling is better, it would be easier to get more horsepower out of it because its naturally aspirated, and its rear wheel drive, creating overster:D
The only thing i see as better for the S4 is the AWD, probably giving it a bit better handling, and making it more of an all-seasons car.

i agree, thats one thing i love about audi's. the quattro system is awesome. but you know what, if was givin keys to any of those cars, i would pee my pants..

Originally posted by 3.5litermoose
it would be easier to get more horsepower out of it because its naturally aspirated

Umm...what school do you come from? There's a chip that you can buy for the Audi S4 that makes the HP jump from 250HP to 320HP...and that just a CHIP!!! Imagine what would you have if you did intake, downpipe, full catback exhaust, boost controller...we are talking 360HP or so. Plus...we aren't even getting into the dreaded KKK turbos!!! I think you are wrong in saying that the NA M3 is going to be able to get more power...it could get more power if you put a supercharger (Dinan) or a turbo (Active Autowerkes)...but saying that you can get more HP NA-wise out of the M3 vs. the TWIN TURBO S4 is just foolish.

NISSANSPDR..why do you have to be so ignorant. just because someone posts something they believe or know, doesnt mean there foolish. Where do you come off being the all-knowing car expert, who gave you the permission to go around putting people down.

Considering there both in the same price range, the Bimmer is a better gain. NISSANSPDR was only talkin about modding the S4, what happened if you modded the M3, why dont you talk about that, but thats proabably because you dont look at both sides. The M3 is miles better than the S4. Just take the time and read about the E-46 platform, youll be amazed. The fact is you haved to buy extra shit so that the S4 is almost as fast as the M3. You say 320 hp by buying a chip, well how about 333 hp with out buying anything, or then buy a chip an raise the hp to 390 in a Bimmer. Then get an exhaust all that crap that you were talkin about, the Bimmer will be faster. Try an tell me no. That s the fact, you can squeeze more power out of a Bimmer cause you havent even begun forced induction..but anyway, i hope that you decide to think about certain things an be more considerate before opening your mouth, there is no need for that.

when i said that you could get more out of it because it is naturally asipirtated, i meant you have a 3.2 literand havent even added turbo yet. Because the Audi is a 2.7 liter with a biturbo already, i figured it wouldnt get as much horsepower.:finger:
if you add those mods you were talking about to any car youll be getting more horsepower, like mastachi said

hello?
dollar for dollar on the stock cars, if you do the same mods, you get more power out of the biturbo audi. b/c it has turbos.
that was tough. we're not talking about major upgrades, just a chip and exh, you get more from the tt car. end of story. if you add the turbo to the m3, you get alot, but what about upgrading the tt turbos on the audi?

he did talk about modding the m3... like adding a supercharger or turbo, dinan or activeautowerkes...

read boys.

i have driven both cars, and i love the powersliding rear the m3 offers, but i love having the s4s supergrip. the only downfall is that it cant spin the wheels b/c the quattro is too smart. thats good and bad. the m3 can slide so easily its kinda scary. but a fun scary.

if i had to choose one, it would be a yellow m3 coupe.
or a nagano blue s4 with the blue suede inserts in the interior... six speeds are soo much fun.

Originally posted by NISSANSPDR
Tried and true battle of Audi vs. BMW...now most ppl will say right off the bat that the M3 is the winner...but you must look beyond and realize that these cars are more closely matched than that...

S4
2.7 Liter Biturbo V6
AWD
250HP
258 lbs. of torque
6 spd manual
0-60 in 5.6 seconds
93.6 bhp per liter
Brake Size: 12.6 F/11.8 R
Curb weight 3300 lbs.

M3
3.2 Liter Inline 6
RWD
240HP
236 lbs. of torque
5 spd manual
0-60 in 5.5 seconds
76.14 bhp per liter
Brake Size: 12.4 F/12.3 R
Curb weight 3150 lbs.

Sorry but you have wrong specs.

Curb weight of S4 is 3593 lbs for 6 speed manual.
Also the 0-60 time is 5.9 seconds for manual and 6.5 for tiptronic.

E36 M3's official spec is 0-60 in 5.7 seconds.

Originally posted by mastachi
Brag all you want about the last BMW M3. Hey, we sure did. Profess about its being the king of compact sport coupes/sedans. But the fact is that the previous E36-platform M3 gets flat-out trounced in just about every way by the new E46-based design. How? Thanks to a thrilling new 3.2L DOHC inline-six that delivers a sky-high 8000-rpm redline, 333 serious horsepower, and a torque curve flatter than Kansas. Don't forget its wider-track, larger-rubber, race-inspired brakes and redesigned suspension. Factor in a more aggressive look and upgraded interior appointments, and you begin to get an inkling of what the '01 M3 is all about. (Motor Trend)
The M3 is much better than the S4. More power, better styling, and an awesome car platform thats soo balanced. I think the M3 kicks major ass.

Funny how you believe all these marketing.

Originally posted by mastachi
Considering there both in the same price range, the Bimmer is a better gain. NISSANSPDR was only talkin about modding the S4, what happened if you modded the M3, why dont you talk about that, but thats proabably because you dont look at both sides. The M3 is miles better than the S4. Just take the time and read about the E-46 platform, youll be amazed. The fact is you haved to buy extra shit so that the S4 is almost as fast as the M3. You say 320 hp by buying a chip, well how about 333 hp with out buying anything, or then buy a chip an raise the hp to 390 in a Bimmer. Then get an exhaust all that crap that you were talkin about, the Bimmer will be faster. Try an tell me no. That s the fact, you can squeeze more power out of a Bimmer cause you havent even begun forced induction..but anyway, i hope that you decide to think about certain things an be more considerate before opening your mouth, there is no need for that.

If you don't know anything other than what's presented in TV and magazine please don't acted like you know everything.

1. S4 and E46 M3 are not the same price.
2. You do not need to buy a ton of shit to make S4 faster than M3.
3. Chip for S4 cost around $500 if you shipped them the ECU.
4. M3's chip raise the hp from Euro Spec 343 Din to 363 Din. It does not raise to 390 hp.
5. Go take a lesson in engine before coming back. S4's engine block was built to withstand some serious boost. M3's engine was design using rev multiplier to increase power hence the 8000 rpm. You can get the same amount of power going all motors but it will cost many many times more than an engine already force inducted.
6. Keep your mouth close when you don't know anything.

Originally posted by 3.5litermoose
when i said that you could get more out of it because it is naturally asipirtated, i meant you have a 3.2 literand havent even added turbo yet. Because the Audi is a 2.7 liter with a biturbo already, i figured it wouldnt get as much horsepower.:finger:
if you add those mods you were talking about to any car youll be getting more horsepower, like mastachi said

Wrong!! Read above for answer.

The post quality of this forum has really gone downhill.

Mastachi...stop talking about the E46...this post is about the E36 which is not the 333HP version. I dont look at both sides? The side you are fighting isnt even relevant!!!

F20C...www.supercars.net...curb weight of the S4 is 3307 lbs. Check it. Also has the 0-60mph of the M3 is 5.6 seconds...my bad...but it is not 5.7 as you say...

Originally posted by NISSANSPDR

F20C...www.supercars.net...curb weight of the S4 is 3307 lbs. Check it. Also has the 0-60mph of the M3 is 5.6 seconds...my bad...but it is not 5.7 as you say...

Supercars.net are not known to have the most accurate information. Go check http://www.audiworld.com/ or Audi USA's site for the real information.

Also the 5.7 are quote from BMW itself. I don't take 3rd party information that seriously. Especially when you don't know where their stats came from. I trust manufacture on this.

Ok so you'd rather take the word of the manufacturer...I mean they are going to try their best to make their car look the best...so they are biased from the get go. You need 3rd parties to be impartial.

I would go for the M3 personally, on looks (no s4 coupe, right?) and entertainment value. However, our (Europe's) E36 M3's have 286bhp and 321bhp so i dont know how much slower the 240bhp version is. then again if the S4 has only slightly more power but the extra weight of 4wd to carry around i would definitely go for the M3, even if it is the "underpowered one"

cheers
jay

the fact is he was talkin about a brand new S4, not an earlier one, so the new M3 is the E46 platform, if you were to compare the a new S4 to an old M3 (E36), that would be unfair, that chip thing was off the top of my head. Plus, dont go around acting like your the all-knowing God of cars, cause your not. F20C, someone will always be there to correct you also, dont go around admonishing people unless your absolutely sure. The character of certain people in this forum has gone down.

Kelley Blue Book
INVOICE RETAIL
S4 2.7T QUATTRO AWD
8D2579 Sedan 4D (6-Spd.) 35252.00 38900.00
Destination Charge 645.00 645.00
--------- ---------
BASE MODEL PRICE WITH DESTINATION CHARGE 35897.00 39545.00
(Mfr's. Effective Date 1-1-02 Revised)
Note: Base price does not include advertising and other dealer costs (see below).

BMW
M3 3.2L
0237 Coupe 2D 41930.00 45900.00
Destination Charge 645.00 645.00
--------- ---------
BASE MODEL PRICE WITH DESTINATION CHARGE 42575.00

There is only a 2000 dollar price difference. Also, were not talkin about modded cars. Were talking stock. So why would you even talk about it? An you guys are talking about 100th's of a second in the 0-60 time, there could have been many factors involving the time difference.

Originally posted by NISSANSPDR
Ok so you'd rather take the word of the manufacturer...I mean they are going to try their best to make their car look the best...so they are biased from the get go. You need 3rd parties to be impartial.

Did you know manufacture are known to have conservative stats. They cannot overestimate because if they can't back it up they will have a big marketing headache.

Originally posted by mastachi
F20C, someone will always be there to correct you also, dont go around admonishing people unless your absolutely sure. The character of certain people in this forum has gone down.

Please go ahead and correct me. Afterall I know what I am talking about and you don't.

F20C. Wow, i was right in thinking you were an ignorant, superficial close minded person.. You should read my post again before opening your mouth.

Sorry but I don't like hiding behind computer playing around with words. If you an owner of Audi S4 then I would respect you. You haven't proven you have any knowledge regarding S4. I like shooting down people who have a big mouth and pretend they know everything about cars they don't own. Go learn more about both M3 and S4 then come back and post. Until then you are just making yourself look like a fool by posting inaccurate information.

Right..you got me pinned down. Better not say anything. How about you go race an M3 (E46) an tell me if you win. You probably wont.. Why, cause the M3 is faster, is that so hard to understand?Maybe for you cause your a snot-nosed know-it-all. Just because you own an S4, doesnt make you the definitive expert on S4's, does it? What have i said wrong? I made one careless comment about racing chips? Maybe you should see if they make any other chips other than Dinan? or maybe thats all you read about, therefore the only ones made for the M3? cause i also forgot you are the resident guru on M3's..Everything, else, i managed to back myself up on. or not cause you proabably didnt even read my post an just shot your mouth off..which is probably the case since your already know everything. All you talk about is how an S4 can be faster than an M3. The key word is "can", were not talkin about modding the cars, were talkin about bone stock off the factory lot. This isnt the Audi Tuning forum, course, you proabably didnt read that either, since you know everything, an no one else knows shit. Would i be correct on that, or am i wrong on that also since you cant seem to agree with anybody. Are'nt you hiding behind the computor playing with words also?? Only people with Audi S4's are worth respecting, or so you say, not that people with M3's would know anything about there cars too. Well, if you like shooting people down, you should do a better job?? So far, you havent proven anything to me at all, except that you seem very immature about this subject. So, am i right in saying that people wouldnt know shit about cars unless they owned every car they talked about. Again, i would ask you to read my other post.You havent said anything about it. I didnt make those price quotes up, an they seem like there in the same price range..or is the Kelley Blue Book wrong also? cause you are also the definitive guide to price quotes and have owned every single car known to man.

Gosh does stupid people ever learn? I'll quote you so you can see what uneducated remarks you made.

Originally posted by mastachi
or then buy a chip an raise the hp to 390 in a Bimmer. That s the fact, you can squeeze more power out of a Bimmer cause you havent even begun forced induction

This quote tells me you like to BS a lot to prove your point. There is no chip available for M3 that will create 57 hp. I'll repeat it again that the best chip so far only makes 363 DIN and removes the top speed limiter along with better emissions. Also it tells me you know nothing about cars especially engines. Do you know what's one of the worst enemy of force induction? The compression ratio will limit how much boost. You can still run safely with 6 psi but you won't be making much more power.

Originally posted by mastachi
i hope that you decide to think about certain things an be more considerate before opening your mouth, there is no need for that.

This quote is so ironic. You acted like you know everything so you tell people to shut up. However in reality your information was probaly as far off as one can get.

Originally posted by mastachi
Right..you got me pinned down. Better not say anything. How about you go race an M3 (E46) an tell me if you win. You probably wont.. Why, cause the M3 is faster, is that so hard to understand?Maybe for you cause your a snot-nosed know-it-all. Just because you own an S4, doesnt make you the definitive expert on S4's, does it? What have i said wrong? I made one careless comment about racing chips? Maybe you should see if they make any other chips other than Dinan? or maybe thats all you read about, therefore the only ones made for the M3? cause i also forgot you are the resident guru on M3's..Everything, else, i managed to back myself up on. or not cause you proabably didnt even read my post an just shot your mouth off..which is probably the case since your already know everything. All you talk about is how an S4 can be faster than an M3. The key word is "can", were not talkin about modding the cars, were talkin about bone stock off the factory lot. This isnt the Audi Tuning forum, course, you proabably didnt read that either, since you know everything, an no one else knows shit. Would i be correct on that, or am i wrong on that also since you cant seem to agree with anybody. Are'nt you hiding behind the computor playing with words also?? Only people with Audi S4's are worth respecting, or so you say, not that people with M3's would know anything about there cars too. Well, if you like shooting people down, you should do a better job?? So far, you havent proven anything to me at all, except that you seem very immature about this subject. So, am i right in saying that people wouldnt know shit about cars unless they owned every car they talked about. Again, i would ask you to read my other post.You havent said anything about it. I didnt make those price quotes up, an they seem like there in the same price range..or is the Kelley Blue Book wrong also? cause you are also the definitive guide to price quotes and have owned every single car known to man.

First you lose your arguement then now you are misquoting me? Go find the exact sentence where I said stock S4 will beat E46 M3? But for your information back when I was stock M3 will beat me but now M3 will get beat. I owned a S4 therefore I don't need to BS like you to prove a point. I talk from experience and you based your information of S4 off what? Magazines? Internet? or just something off the top of your brain? About the owning S4 thing. It was said because non-owners like you goes to a board and spreads wrong information. Worst thing is you act so cocky while telling people to shut up. S4 and M3 aren't fully loaded. You should add up options on both side to make it compareable.

Are you saying you could beat an M3(E46) in a race?... . im gonna say something, i formally apologize for being ignorant. I said one thing wrong, im sorry for that. The fact, is im not the only being cocky here.. This has gone way off topic, and the fact is its getting silly. I even strayed from what i believed. I hate arguing, even if im right or wrong, i always stand by my word, an i hate that, im sorry. I dont like making enemies. You may have proved somethings, but on the other hand you also strayed to far off the topic to make things relevant, which was my mistake also. But i do apologize for being overbearing and stubborn. But i do stand by the other things i said, about price range, how fast each car is compared to the other. The thing about the chip is something off the top of my head, but also, there is no way people can keep up with the latest tecnological developments because the field grows too fast to know about every breakthrough they make for the M3 in racing chip technology. The errant comment about the chip does not mean i do not know about engines. Engines are some of the most complex machines in existence. I doubt that anybody heres knows everything there is to know about engines. Although i apologize, its not because you proved me wrong, its because of the way i went about the topic was wrong. My ettiquette was wrong an so were my manners. The last thing i want to be is a bullshit artist, or anything of that sort. Im here to learn more about my passion and thats all.

i give the edge to the e36 m3 over the s4. as far as tunability goes, i'd say you can get better gains dollar for dollar from the s4. please stop talking about the e46(that's a totally different debate)...you know who you are.

how bout you read the posts before opening your mouth. Blowhard99, you know how you are. I guess you didnt read the apology....

Originally posted by mastachi
Are you saying you could beat an M3(E46) in a race?...

Mods and I'll list the price I pay too. However I haven't include in the tax, labor and shipping charge yet.

1.0 Bar ECU Upgrade $600
Cat-Back Exhaust $1000
Air Filter $50
Engine Snub Mount $50
BiPipe Kit $350
Shocks and Springs $500

Just the parts itself cost $2550.

Mods good for 320 hp with 370 lb-ft torque.

Originally posted by mastachi
But i do stand by the other things i said, about price range, The thing about the chip is something off the top of my head, but also, there is no way people can keep up with the latest tecnological developments because the field grows too fast to know about every breakthrough they make for the M3 in racing chip technology. The errant comment about the chip does not mean i do not know about engines. Engines are some of the most complex machines in existence. I doubt that anybody heres knows everything there is to know about engines.

Audi S4

Base MSRP: $38,900
Destination Charge $645
Premium package $1,200
Cold weather package $600
Bose® premium sound system $650
Price as configured: $41,995

BMW M3 Coupe

Base MSRP: $45,900
Destination Charge $645
Cold Weather Package $700
Premium Package $3,200
Bi-xenon headlights $700
Harman Kardon premium sound system $675
Price as configured: $51820

You can see how those 2 compare when loaded up to same equipment.

Actually you will if you are on the waiting list for a M3.

The part that tell me you don't know about basic engine mechanics was this quote.

you can squeeze more power out of a Bimmer cause you havent even begun forced induction
Like I said before high C/R engines are not suited for big boost. Without big boost you simply don't gain that much.

'if you were to compare the a new S4 to an old M3 (E36), that would be unfair' -mastachi

that's the only place that you've mentioned the original topic. even in your "apology" post, you are still talking about the e46. i was just suggesting that we stay on topic. apology accepted, btw.

all im gonna ask is this. do you accept my apology? thats all i wanted to know. Im still standin by what i said. As i said earlier, I dont know everything about engines okay. The majority of the time, if you havent put turbos on a car yet, you can still make more power from that car, than a car already with turbos. Apparently this is another case. If you are going to keep criticizing me, thats fine, ive let it go. Im done with this, and i just dont care anymore. I apologized whole-heartedly, without holding back anything. You stick to what you believe, an Ill stick to what i believe. Im done with this post..it makes no sense to me anymore. There are too many underlying factors in what we are trying to prove, an i dont feel like discussing this anymore..Please, can we leave this alone and get on better terms? Is that alright with you?

Apology accepted.

thank you.

wow... that was kinda funny...

however, f20 does know his shiet... and what he said was true in general....

and with the money saved on an s4, it would molest an m3, if mods were allowed.

dollar for dollar, cheaper to mod an s4.
more power per mod, etc...

and whoever said it was unfair to compare the s4 and the m3 b/c the s4 was "never", then go and buy a 98 of each, and compare those. just so we have the baseline.

either way, i would take the s4, possibly over the e46.

Thank you...I agree w/FLYLWSI...they both co-existed at the same time...the E36 and the S4 that is still around...so it is totally fair....need I remind you that the S4 beat the M3 in a C&D comparison test...there were 2 other cars but I cant recall...point being...1st place S4, 2nd place M3...it was a big deal since C&D always put the 1st place trophy in the Bimmer's trunk since it was always wrapped up and no contest...but this time it was not so.

If all youre concerned with is modifying the S4 so it can outrun the M3, then fine. But the simple fact is that the S4 isnt as involving nor as much fun to drive on the limit. Thats why ive only ever seen a handful in a city drowned in A4's.

cheers,
jay

word.

hmm... b/c it is an underground style car. how many people really know what it is? and for all practical purposes, you cant tell unless you are really familiar with them that its an s4. and who said it was modded to catch an m3? they are pretty equal as is. have you driven both? the s4 is very fun at the limit. get seat time in both... the m3 felt kinda disconnected to me, i was spinnin the tires but i couldnt get the feedback im used to in other cars that are more mechanical.

and not that the s4 is mechanical, but be fair. drive both, and if you have, do it again. i drove the s4 in the rain too, so you get a real idea there, b/c i wouldnt drive the m3 like i did the s4 in the rain.

Originally posted by mastachi
the fact is he was talkin about a brand new S4, not an earlier one, so the new M3 is the E46 platform, if you were to compare the a new S4 to an old M3 (E36), that would be unfair, that chip thing was off the top of my head. Plus, dont go around acting like your the all-knowing God of cars, cause your not. F20C, someone will always be there to correct you also, dont go around admonishing people unless your absolutely sure. The character of certain people in this forum has gone down.

I think price is the most important criteria in comparing car A to car B. Prices will vary by region, but a new M3 costs about $15k Cdn. more where I live. If you're talking used, then a used 2001 S4 is about the same money as a used 98 or 99 M3 which is the E36 platform.

I think if you equalize price then its fair. To use an extreme example, no one would realistically compare a new M3 to a new Civic would they? I see what you're saying about the years, but I think the way the pole was set up (new S4 vs. E36 M3) its fair and the original intent of the pole.

Hmm... this whole forum sounds like a bunch of magazine-racers. By that I mean you judge who will win a race by the statistics you read out of Motor Trend or download off the internet, times that were gotten with a professional driver behind the wheel. I've taken my car to the track and I can tell you that it takes practice to get your car through the quarter as fast as the drivers of most automotive magazines. Has anyone here driven their E36 at the dragstrip? I'd be curious to hear what your times were, whether they correspond with what you've read or if they're faster/slower than what you thought. A modified S4 would have an advantage over a modified M3 at the dragstrip being that it's AWD and could launch very consistantly with virtually no wheelspin where a modified M3 would have to fight for traction and might lose even though it weighs less and has the same or more HP. Put your magazines down, head to the track and get some timeslips that prove how fast/slow your car actually is. I swear people, just because your computer tells you your car runs a 14.1 doesn't mean YOU will run a 14.1 behind the wheel.

with a little practice, its not so hard launching your car off the line. But then again, thats not what driving cars is about. in my opinion, those times mean jack sh*t.

cheers,
jay

Those times mean jack shit until you get dusted by a rice rocket who knows how to launch his car better than you. You could be sporting a brand new M3 and get embarassed by a fixed up Honda, you'd probably win even if you launched horribly but it'd be embarassing to be playing catch-up after he got a good launch and you didn't. I raced an Integra GSR at the track and he one, he was upset that I kept up with him 'till the 8th mile and didn't want to believe that my car was mostly stock. He didn't launch well and spent the first 8th mile passing me, pissed him off, made my evening.

So if i bolt on some wheels and a quad-turbo'd V8 to my garden shed does that make it a vehicle i should be proud of? A rice rocket, if i understand the expression correctly, is a piece of sh*t car that's been heavily modified and therefore capable of going like stink. Still makes it a piece of sh*t car if you ask me. If being outdragged by something like that bothers you, fine. I for one dont pay these people any attention whatsoever. If i'm in an M3 i wouldnt look twice at a car like that and certainly wouldnt "play". Bring on the 911's and Ferraris. Anything else just isnt worth the effort.

cheers,
jay

that's not fair, not everybody has the money to plop down 30+ large on a new bimmer or 70 large for a 911. The fact that somebody would go through the trouble to modify an import car to the point where it runs side by side with 911's and Ferrari's is a testament to their ingenuity. It takes a lot more bloody knuckles and head scratching to get a CRX into the 13's but I guarantee you that the sense of accomplishment is a lot more than the person who spends 75 thousand dollars on a new 911. And that CRX will be paying a hell of a lot less for insurance and gas than the 911 or M3, it's fit and finish may not be quite up to Porsche or BMW standards but i'll bet the owner loves every little quirk on that car.

Sure, but will it handle or just go fast in a straight line?
+ how much money will it have cost to get a "modest" car to go so fast in the first place? With all that money you probably could have afforded a 2nd hand E36 or E30 M3.
It all comes down to your personal preferences. People love different things, and i for one like my cars (fairly) standard.

cheers,
jay

For well under the price of any '95+ M3 you could buy a '91 CRX and have it handle, brake, and accelerate better than an M3. You would have a vehicle that you could be proud of, work on it with your son or daughter and give them memories. Anybody can buy a car and drive it (if they have a job) but it takes a true "car nut" to make their car their own buy customizing virtually everything about it. The M3 is a great car, no arguments, but it costs so much initially and aftermarket is extremeley expensive. A lot of older imports can be had at a steal and aftermarket is usually huge and inexpensive allowing you even more options when you want to personalize. That's my opinion, i don't want someone asking me what's under the hood and having to say "stock", i want to be able to rattle off a list the size of "War and Peace" explaining all my mods. That's just me, to each his own.

it takes a true "car nut" to make their car their own buy customizing virtually everything about it
theres no end to how much i disagree with that. so because i buy a Porsche GT3 or a Ferrari 360 and it's "stock" the car is not special enough and im not a true car nut? No. To each his own, yes, but being a "true car nut" has absolutely nothing to do with modifying cars.

cheers,
jay

on the "new" s4 vs "new" m3 thing, the new s4 is still the older style until the newest version comes out, and that should be a 3.0tt motor with 350ish hp.

the s4 is still the same one as the last couple of years

I agree with Jay about the CRX and '95 M3, I mean, no matter what you do to a CRX you will still have a "Honda CRX" and the other guy will have the "BMW M3". I would much rather drive a used stock M3 for 25,000 than a 25,000 CRX with mods, no contest. Yeah the CRX will problably win in a straight line but you won't have rear wheel drive, be labled as the best handling car in america, look cool, and you will always have a Honda and not a BMW. Anyways, just my opinion.

There is more about a car than just the 1/4 mile.

No offense to all the drag racers in the world...but drag racing is not the highest form of racing...get down on race in SCCA either Solo I or Solo II...that's the grassroots form of racing and from here you will learn how to truly race. If your lucky, you get discovered by some company or scout and you are driving in amatuer, then semi-pro, then pro levels or racing.

I myself have driven in both Solo I/II in Florida...and I will tell you that I learned more about my car (240SX at the time) and the way it handles and responses then the 3 times I went down the drag strip. I would take 3 Solo I course events anyday or 3 drag strip events b/c you learn so much about how to drive, what to do and what not to do.

PS: Btw...for having a turbo CRX...you're car is not really fast...if your fastest timeslip is a 15.7

With the turbo i'll be in th 13's, i'm running a 15.3 now almost completely stock except for suspension. My car (as of now) isn't really built for straightline speed but for autocrossing. A CSP CRX with auto-x tires can pull around 1.18g's on the skidpad, that's not bad for front-wheel drive now is it? My front to rear weight distribution may not be 50/50 but with a car that weighs under 2000lbs and a well tuned suspension I can out handle M3's, Corvettes, etc. After upgrading my suspension and brakes I got tired of hanging with fast cars on the turns and then seeing nothing but taillights on the straightaways, hence the turbo project. And for whoever was saying that they were a car-nut if they bought a Porsche 911 GT3, in my book you'd just be spending a whole lot of money to buy a fast car from the factory. Why not buy a 911 turbo and modify it so that it does everything a GT3 does and then some? You'd be proud of your accomplishment and probably spend a lot less money while learning the in's and out's of your car in the process. With the ammount of work I do on my car I can sit here and visuallize every nut, bolt, etc because I don't take my car to a mechanic, I figure if I don't know how to fix something it's because I haven't tried. Anyways... do you not launch your car when autocrossing or other forms of road racing? It took a bit of practice to learn how to launch my car for the best 60' times and now that i'm good at it I beat a lot of RWD, 4WD, and FWD with slicks just because I can launch harder and faster than they can. I embarassed a Subaru WRX (4WD), Civic SIR (slicks), and a Camaro (RWD) at the track by beating them off the line, they spent the rest of the 1/4 playing catch-up.

As we look at performance the M3(E36) wins (so it doesn't realy matters if we compare an old BMW with the new S4). I think it's more a question what you want a full sports machine BMW or a verysporty luxury car(S4).
BTW the M3(E36) does 0-60 in 5.4~5.6 (we tryed this out).

And for whoever was saying that they were a car-nut if they bought a Porsche 911 GT3, in my book you'd just be spending a whole lot of money to buy a fast car from the factory.

I cant believe you said that. 911 GT3 a fast car, no, a VERY fast car, yes. Not only that but you would be buying a legend in the making, a car with unbelievably precise handling and truly exceptional on the limit.

Why not buy a 911 turbo and modify it so that it does everything a GT3 does and then some?
This shows how little you know about this.
1. A Turbo is faster than a GT3
2. A Turbo is more expensive, i thought thats what you were against
3. A 996 TT could never handle like a GT3 no matter what you do to it. The Turbo is a GT, the GT3 a true race car. There is no doubt the GT3 is the finer car, the best 911 of its generation, far better than Turbo or GT2, though slower than both. Anyone who would choose one of the other two cars over the '3 is an idiot, pure and simple, someone who doesnt know what performance cars are about.


With the amount of work you do, youdo learn a lot about your car and as someone who generally likes finding out how stuff works i appreciate that, a lot. But the notion of that making you more of a true car nut than someone else is ridiculous. If i saved up all my money, took out my savings, sold my house, my wife, my kids :D etc and bought a McLaren F1 with absolutely no intention of touching any of its inner (or outer for that matter) components does that just make me a dumbass who spent a helluva lot of money buying a fast car? does that mean i appreciate it less? What makes someone a true car nut is how they feel about their car and cars in general. How much you want to drive your car even though you have nowhere to go and really should be doing something more productive. Mechanical knowledge is only one aspect of learning about your car, many others are learnt driving it, and thats what enthusiasts buy their cars for, and intend to do with them. And yes, theyre true car nuts. Whether someone buys a Mini Cooper or a GT3 they can both be car nuts, modifying has nothing to do with that.
Some people buy a fast car and have no intention of changing anything about it, and why should they? Modifying is used to make your car go fast. When you start with something like a Honda hatchback (im not insulting you here, i drive a Golf so this applies to me), modifying is the only option we have to make it go fast. but like i said automotive enthusiasm isnt about speed. anyway... if i had enough money to buy a fast car, or tune a cheaper car, i would go for the more expensive factory-fast vehicle. a FWD will never handle like a RWD and on-the limit handling, no matter how light your car will be, will not be as good, not as adjustable, simply not as good as an M3 or the like. Its common for people to resent those who drive faster cars such as Porsches or Ferraris because the likelihood of each of us owning one some day is not very high. im not saying this about you btw, just wanna make that clear. its simply the truth...

As for drag racing, i think thats the biggest form of BS racing that is. True, learning how to launch your car as fast as it will go is tricky and a good thing to be able to do, but it's like a trick, almost. Learn how to drive your car as fast as it can go around a few bends and i'll be impressed. Racing is going around corners, and no its not ovals either. A good change of direction never hurt anyone :D

cheers,
jay

OFF TOPIC MUCH?

GT3?

this thread is about s4s and m3s...

and whoever said drive em, i did... i liked the s4 better. and that was in the rain. at 90. on a backroad. believe me, it was like i stole it.

so back to the point, or not.

if you have the crx that whups on m3s, i'll take.... the crx... especially over a stock m3. just b/c everyone knows that the m3 is the best handler stock, doesn't mean i should go get a stock one if i can get a crx to handle better... and who gives a funk what other people say?

if my car is better, regardless of what you are driving, and you look down your nose b/c the sticker price was lower, than you have a lot of growing up to do...

if you are driving an m3, and a honda is quicker in a straight line AND in a curve, don't think you're too good b/c you wear armani and he's wearing jeans, b/c that is the attitude.

any car that is up to it... is up to it. regardless of the badge.

No, not off-topic at all. Think out of the box a little bit

Well back on topic then... The S4 has quite a bit of hp... but don't forget the quattro, this eats away alot of this hp... so if its drag racing on a dry road, M3 will smoke it easy...

The S4 would handle much better though no matter what, again, cause of quattro.