The Enzo's future Nemisis

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet?attachImage=true&contentType=image%2Fpjpeg&attachment=133
http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet?attachImage=true&contentType=image%2Fpjpeg&attachment=134
http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet?attachImage=true&contentType=image%2Fpjpeg&attachment=135
http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet?attachImage=true&contentType=image%2Fpjpeg&attachment=137




http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74482&page=1&pp=15

It will never have the track potential the enzo has. It might have the accel and the topspeed but the enzo will still top that toy anyday. over 20 years of F1 experience have been put into the enzo. Jus dosent happen.:disappoin

I wouldn't make a blanket statement like that before I had seen it run at the track. That thing looks like a real performer and it costs (retail) a whole lot more than an Enzo (I think). Should be a good one, but its still a chrysler so I won't be buying one :lol2:

it looks awfully a lot like the enzo. how much is it? v12? can we get some stats in here? I clicked on the link, but refuses to connect.

I has to, I think that the squashed look is probably the most aerodynamic

it looks awfully a lot like the enzo. how much is it? v12? can we get some stats in here? I clicked on the link, but refuses to connect.

850 hp quad-turbo V12 ME Four-Twelve 6.0L amg built v12.

ME412
V12 Quad Turbo 850HP/850 Torque
0-60mph: 2.9 seconds
0-100mph: 6.2 seconds
1/4 mile: 10.6@136mph

and a quoted top speed of 248mph

Sounds like a straight line rocket to me. But the question is can it handle? Cause otherwise, I can get better quarter mile times by spending a lot less. Not necessarily safe or reliable or consistent, but 10.6s is hardly legendary. The only thing you'd be paying for is the top speed then and what's the point? How often can you fly yourself and your car down to Nardo to achieve that kind of speed?

It will never have the track potential the enzo has. It might have the accel and the topspeed but the enzo will still top that toy anyday. over 20 years of F1 experience have been put into the enzo. Jus dosent happen.:disappoin

So you've driven them both then?

key word quoted you know how many times car have been quoted or est. Top speed. I cant even name them all but I do kno 1 ex and that the bugatti veyron est top speed was 353 was it no its around 230-225. The only car verifyed at topspeed is the Mclaren F1 and the Enzo with 228 standing as its new record.

So you've driven them both then?

Track record counts as I c it. Dc is good but not that good.

You guys are all right! It has an American badge on the front. There's no WAY it can handle! :rolleyes:

I'd take it over the Enzo, just my opinion. The Enzo is a great car of course, but, it's just not my thing.

You guys are all right! It has an American badge on the front. There's no WAY it can handle! :rolleyes:



Haha thats my point. :icon16:

How many American made chassis are used in F1?
Infact, how many American made chassis are used in IRL? Most of the teams use European designed and built chassis.

There is a good reason why alot of people make gross generalisations about American cars and thier lack of handling, its because as a generalisation its relativly accurate.

However any car with over 800hp and super car looks should have some pretty advanced suspension technology underneath it.
And at the speeds its and the Enzo are capable of reaching any differnce in handling ablity because some what meaningless, as only a very small number of very talanted race drivers will ever be able to get the cars close enough to the limit to truely explore it.

I'd imagine that mercedes had their hands in most of the deisgn of that car.

Yeah, dont' forget Mercedes is also in on the project. It may say chrysler, but from what I've read in Motortrend, it's mostly Mercedes engineering.

And that makes me ask WHAT THE F--K ARE MERC DOING?

They go to all this trouble to bring us the SLR. Then, only a few months after its launch, they release the CL65, the SL65 and the CLK DMT (I think that's right). Now, they bring out this 800+bhp monster.

I don't think those cars are all the same. But they're all very expensive, very fast two door cars.

There's only so many rich people. Some couldn't care less about cars. Some may like a nice car but it's the RR's and Bentleys that attract them. So the "very rich to super rich speed addict" is a small enough segment as it is. And Daimler Chrysler will soon have five cars in that segment? Can anyone seriously say that those cars won't be taking sales from each other?

And that makes me ask WHAT THE F--K ARE MERC DOING?

They go to all this trouble to bring us the SLR. Then, only a few months after its launch, they release the CL65, the SL65 and the CLK DMT (I think that's right). Now, they bring out this 800+bhp monster.

I don't think those cars are all the same. But they're all very expensive, very fast two door cars.

There's only so many rich people. Some couldn't care less about cars. Some may like a nice car but it's the RR's and Bentleys that attract them. So the "very rich to super rich speed addict" is a small enough segment as it is. And Daimler Chrysler will soon have five cars in that segment? Can anyone seriously say that those cars won't be taking sales from each other?

You have to know Mercedes owners. They have VERY particular tastes. Somone looking for the CL65 isn't looking for the SLR, someone looking for the CLK-DTM is not looking for the SL65, and someone looking for the ME-Four Twelve is not looking for the said Mercedes. They are all very different, you kind of have to drive and experience them to know this. I doubt if any of these cars will draw sales away from each other, but even if the do, it's all going to the same place anyways.

The CL&SL65 will certainly be taking sales away from the SLR.

The CL&SL65 will certainly be taking sales away from the SLR.

I have a very hard time believing the SLR will have trouble selling because of the 215 and 230. Whoever is going to buy a SL65 or CL65 over and SLR because of the price wasn't going to be paying the high bid at the auction anyway.

Hey Moppie, you forgetting the Riley & Scott MkIII?

http://www.andywallace.com/dyson_roadamerica00.jpg
http://www.gpma.org/Images/acrsford01.jpg

Last I remember, ol' slabnose was the better choice when compared with its IMSA WSC contemporary, the Ferrari 333SP.

How about the Chevy Intrepid GTP car?

http://www.gunnarjeannette.com/gallery/crete_gal/images/Crete-Intrepid.jpg
http://www.jadepigracing.com/webimages/intrepid_64/mastertop.jpg

Top end of only 178 down the Watkins Glen backstretch compared the the 962's 212mph top end, however the Intrepid was only .5 seconds slower.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is aerodynamics. The Chrysler ME412 is supposed to be capable of 248mph or something. Okay, fine. What about lower speeds? When you build something to be aerodynamically functional at such high speeds, you compromise performance at lower, more common speeds. Basically, this car could do very well at the Bonneville Salt Flats or the Nardi Bowl, but results would be different at an actual course like Laguna Seca, for example.

This will be/is a problem for the Bugatti Veyron, as well. I still think they're working on finding a tire manufacturer that will make something that will work on the Veyron.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is aerodynamics. The Chrysler ME412 is supposed to be capable of 248mph or something. Okay, fine. What about lower speeds? When you build something to be aerodynamically functional at such high speeds, you compromise performance at lower, more common speeds. Basically, this car could do very well at the Bonneville Salt Flats or the Nardi Bowl, but results would be different at an actual course like Laguna Seca, for example.

This will be/is a problem for the Bugatti Veyron, as well. I still think they're working on finding a tire manufacturer that will make something that will work on the Veyron.

UHHH...What's so slow about 0-60 in UNDER 3 seconds????

UHHH...What's so slow about 0-60 in UNDER 3 seconds????

UHHH...Where did I say that was slow? :rolleyes:

I said that performance will be compromised. You go for stability at almost 250mph where you'll almost certainly be traveling in a straight line, and you'll sacrifice some performance at slower speeds where you'd be turning. You can't have both.

There's really no way to get around it without some sort of adaptive aerodynamics, and a pop-up wing won't cut it.

Y didnt they put a standard racing spoiler on it? dosent it have diffusers?The f1 also can come with a spoiler in the hdf kit and still hit 240 :evillol:

I see, mis-read. Understood.

Y didnt they put a standard racing spoiler on it? dosent it have diffusers?The f1 also can come with a spoiler in the hdf kit and still hit 240 :evillol:

It's easy to do that kind of thing with a purpose built race car. Building a production car places many more restrictions on the design.

I have read or heard nothing to suggest that the grand-daddy of supercars the McLaren F1 has any dynamic problems at lower speeds, yet it holds the current production car record of 241,7mph set at nardo.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that Chrysler have the same type of expertise McLaren has.

Although, they will soon be owned by the same company. I wonder if people like Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey has a hand in the ME4-12.

Can you imagine that. In 3-4 years, there'll be three models of McMercs added to the list of the other five we were discussing. I guess it's a machine gun scatter shot approach. If you're in the market for a supercar, we're bound to have something for ya.

The Mclaren is a production car it is considered the fastest production car in the world.

I have read or heard nothing to suggest that the grand-daddy of supercars the McLaren F1 has any dynamic problems at lower speeds, yet it holds the current production car record of 241,7mph set at nardo.

Don't forget that only 1150kg(~2536lbs), the McLaren F1 is probably a good bit lighter than the ME412. Heck, even the Enzo weighs just a bit over 3000lbs. The Macca's lower weigh surely helps with dynamics at any speed.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that Chrysler have the same type of expertise McLaren has.

Although, they will soon be owned by the same company. I wonder if people like Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey has a hand in the ME4-12.

It's highly doubtful that Murray had any part in the ME412. First off, he was probably busy with the SLR. Second, he hates the Veyron, since it's pretty much a narrow-sighted attempt on the F1's top speed record. Murray probably wouldn't be involved with a car that seems so similar to the Bugatti. Oh, and he doesn't like turbocharging. He doesn't like supercharging either, but considers the latter better than the former. He prefers normal aspiration, but gave in and allowed a blower on the SLR.

Can you imagine that. In 3-4 years, there'll be three models of McMercs added to the list of the other five we were discussing. I guess it's a machine gun scatter shot approach. If you're in the market for a supercar, we're bound to have something for ya.

Murray is supposed to be interested in working on smaller cars next. There'll be a baby McMerc, and who knows, he might work on an A-class or an SLK or something.

I have a very hard time believing the SLR will have trouble selling because of the 215 and 230. Whoever is going to buy a SL65 or CL65 over and SLR because of the price wasn't going to be paying the high bid at the auction anyway.
The market for hypercars is small enough as it is and desperately overcrowded, as witnessed by the declining premiums cars like the Carrera GT and Enzo are commanding. Besides, if memory serves Merc have pretty bullish targets for the SLR. Oh, and Rich people watch the pennies too, you know ;)

Oh, and Rich people watch the pennies too, you know ;)

hehe true the more money u have more you want I would think.

The market for hypercars is small enough as it is and desperately overcrowded, as witnessed by the declining premiums cars like the Carrera GT and Enzo are commanding. Besides, if memory serves Merc have pretty bullish targets for the SLR. Oh, and Rich people watch the pennies too, you know ;)
So only people named Richard watch pennies? What the hell is up with you, ya fricking retard. :p don't mind me, just mucking around with the ill placed Capital letter :D:D


As for this Chrysler, meh- I think the market for Hypercars is collapsing and the power race is getting out of hand (Bugatti, Cadillac and Chrysler are nuts). Now the Hulme F1, now that looks like a pretty good Up and Coming supercar, eh? eh? :uhoh:

As for this Chrysler, meh- I think the market for Hypercars is collapsing and the power race is getting out of hand (Bugatti, Cadillac and Chrysler are nuts).

Yea the race is gettn outa hand 16 cylinders! Cadillac :rofl: chrysler :disappoin bugatti yes but not a 1001 hp car that is only good in a strait line thats not a supercar.

Yeah, where the hell are all these new supercars coming from?

Count them up:
SLR
Enzo
Carrerra GT
Bugatti Veryon
2 cars from Koneiggsegg (sp?) CC8S and CCR I think
Ascari
C16
Cien
ME4-12
Pagani Zonda C12S
I think there was another new supercar at the Monaco super car show. Can't remember the name though.

And I'm not counting the Ford GT, Lambo Murc. and Gallardo and Ferrari 360CS. They're too cheap to make the list above.

All within the space of two years. It's getting ridiculous. And not one of them are getting any lighter. Everyone only cares about more horse power. Don't they realize that with a lighter car, you can have less power, go just as fast and it'll handle better.

So only people named Richard watch pennies? What the hell is up with you, ya fricking retard. :p don't mind me, just mucking around with the ill placed Capital letter :D:D

Now you listen to me and listen to me good. One day your poking fun of people's ill-placed capitalisations will get you into trouble. Serious Trouble :sly:

Yeah, where the hell are all these new supercars coming from?

Count them up:
SLR
Enzo
Carrerra GT
Bugatti Veryon
2 cars from Koneiggsegg (sp?) CC8S and CCR I think
Ascari
C16
Cien
ME4-12
Pagani Zonda C12S



cadillac cien :rofl:

Merecedes hasnt released a supercar in a while they have the right to they re just keep up with comp. Enzo yes because ferrari needed something new to brag about beside another f1 world championship and porsche gt2's were gettin old so they spiced it up made a real C.F body and a v10 instead of a meek six and so the gt was born everything else is a wana be besides the zonda C12-S because zonda has already releasd the wait can you guess it..... THE C12! Veyron was just an attemp on the mclaren speed record but failed horribly :rofl:. The ccr & cc8s are true supercars just late bloomers thats all.

Tell me again why Chrysler isn't allowed to make a supercar?

Tell me again why the Swedish aren't allowed to make an all out assault on the world production car speed record?

Tell me again why a car from an admittedly troubled manufacturer (even with big daddy VW's pursestrings, Bugatti hasn't built a production car since 1995) that hasn't made it to production yet is a failure?

Tell me again when Cadillac said they'd build the Cien?

Seriously, jcsaleen, can you provide any good reason why you're so eager to shoot down the multitude of small european garage manufacturers who turn out thousands of small sports and racing cars a year. Companies like Dallara, Courage, Radical, Picchio, and Lola are the livelihood of road racing. Sometimes, they build roadcars because it's good for sales of their race cars or team morale.

And why can't the Americans try? It only makes sense that the nation where the most supercars are bought and sold should be involved with producing them.

It's just really narrow-sighted of you to be so blunt with your blanket statements.

all I can say is ENZO this! (thanks malkaJB)
http://img23.exs.cx/img23/6351/EnzoGTPrototype.jpg

And I have no problem with the swedes I OWN A DAMN VOLVO!!! All I said is they are late bloomers. Chrysler cant make something that handles unless Mb is helping them out other wise there as good as done. The cadillac 16 is not a supercar it has massive weight and is a show car only!

I'm sure some of you would have said that the Ford GT40 would've failed in Le Mans also.

I say more power to whoever wants to put the money into building a supercar; hell, even saturn could attempt it. But until it's finished and ran, all you can do is speculate as to how good/bad it is in each aspect.

Very true however you also need racing experience to build a supercar as well.

Hmm, nah, Chrysler has never done any racing.

http://www.racingtours.dk/pictures/Le_Mans_2001/Jan_knudsen_donnington/Oreca_Chrysler.jpg

And yes I know that they farmed out chassis design to Dallara, however consider this. Chrysler designed the Lamborghini Diablo.

Yeah, go figure, the first drivable RACEABLE Lamborghini since Bob Wallace built the Jota (which, oddly enough was built from the Lamborghini Miura which had a chassis designed by GASP! DALLARA!) was designed by Chrysler engineers in the 80's.

Never said they didnt :nono: They should dtick to economy cars and I have the feeling you like lmp's alot dont you :naughty:

I like the ones that don't have four rings on the nose. In the words of myself "I would greatly enjoy dismantling every Audi R8 ever built with a chain saw."

By the way, that's the origin of the Porsche Carrera GT. It's what remains of Porsche's aborted LMP900 project that was scrapped when the ACO changed the rules before the car was complete.

If you're wondering why Audis, Lola/MG's, Dallara Judds, and Pescarolo Courages are still competing unaltered, it's because no companies have yet prepared LMP1 cars thus in order to have fields in the LMES and ALMS they had to "grandfather" the old LMP900 cars. Rumor has it that Mazda is building a works LMP2 car, though, and Lola, Courage, and Lucchini have all debuted new LMP2 cars. LMP1 is still a barren wasteland, though.

I know alot of supercars today are based from lmp's I wouldnt be suprised if audis le mans concept was based from the r8.

Very true however you also need racing experience to build a supercar as well.

Chrysler only made some of the best cars of the 60's, and hte Viper. I don't see what your beef is with chrysler, but it's quite evident.

I know alot of supercars today are based from lmp's I wouldnt be suprised if audis le mans concept was based from the r8.

Actually, the only modern supercar that shares parts with an LMP that has competed is the Ferrari F50. The F50 and the Ferrari 333SP shared engines, although the 333SP used a six speed sequential gearbox and the F50 used a traditional manual and the F50's engine was swelled out to 4.7L instead of the 333SP's 4.0L engine.

Of course, the engine started life in a Ferrari F1 car, namely the Six-Forty series of F1 cars.


The Audi Le Mans, however, is an AWD V10 twin turbo powered hulking beast. Whereas the disgusting panzers prowling the slim underfunded ranks of the ALMS use twin turbo V8's.

Chrysler only made some of the best cars of the 60's, and hte Viper. I don't see what your beef is with chrysler, but it's quite evident.

Was I reffering to CHRYSLER!!!! NO! I dont care about chrysler.

I'm sure some of you would have said that the Ford GT40 would've failed in Le Mans also. I say more power to whoever wants to put the money into building a supercar; hell, even saturn could attempt it. But until it's finished and ran, all you can do is speculate as to how good/bad it is in each aspect.

Does the RED text look like chrysler to you 2 !!!!!! :loser:

Companies get pigeon holed. That's a fact of life.

Chrysler can build an expensive supercar.

McDonalds can decide to serve Champagne and seafood dinners for 200 a head.

K-mart can make $2,000 suits to compete with Armani.

That's all well and good but don't be surprised when people are skeptical.

Companies get pigeon holed. That's a fact of life.

Chrysler can build an expensive supercar.

McDonalds can decide to serve Champagne and seafood dinners for 200 a head.

K-mart can make $2,000 suits to compete with Armani.

That's all well and good but don't be surprised when people are skeptical.

:1: very good anologies. Except for the k mart 1 I saw this guy who sells suits in C.A beverly hills he charges 2,500$ dollars just to get in the store the suits are 50k plus.:eek7:

Actually, the only modern supercar that shares parts with an LMP that has competed is the Ferrari F50. The F50 and the Ferrari 333SP shared engines, although the 333SP used a six speed sequential gearbox and the F50 used a traditional manual and the F50's engine was swelled out to 4.7L instead of the 333SP's 4.0L engine.

Of course, the engine started life in a Ferrari F1 car, namely the Six-Forty series of F1 cars.


The Audi Le Mans, however, is an AWD V10 twin turbo powered hulking beast. Whereas the disgusting panzers prowling the slim underfunded ranks of the ALMS use twin turbo V8's.

Very interesting I love the 333sp 1 of my fave race cars of all time. Actaully I saw the weirdest thing about a year ago on a site that sells high priced exoitics as well as regular cars I saw a custom f50 for sale it had a V8 and down graded the litres buy .5 or so. Now I would think all this was BS but it was a very hidden site with alot of nice cars for sale but I looked @ the email to contact seller An guess who's M.####Schumacher @ something (M.####Schumacher@ something) mail I had never seen anything like it and of course the 1 person who could get anything they desired from ferrari beside MAX mosley lol is non other then Michael Schumacher.

:1: very good anologies. Except for the k mart 1 I saw this guy who sells suits in C.A beverly hills he charges 2,500$ dollars just to get in the store the suits are 50k plus.:eek7:

Sorry, that went right over my head. Does this guy work in K-mart or something? What does a guy who charges 50k a suit have to do with K-mart?

Back to the discussion. I have no problems with people who are willing to attempt making supercars. I'm a car fanatic. More supercars the better. It's just that I remember the last "GOLDEN" era of supercars. I also remember what happened to those companies. I hope the current lot do better but I don't think they will. It comes back to the market your pitching to. And it's far too small to accommodate all these different companies.