AWD Monsters

Choices are:

Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI GSR

Subaru 22b STi

Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 Vspec

i havent voted, but i love skylines, and they are a given killer of everything, but i love the 22b sti...
something about a car that is all about rallying... drifting on gravel is awesome...
but i really like the skyline... i just cant make something into one over here in the states...
the wrx or prez can be made into a 22b sti if you have the dough... i just dream about skylines...

Well you should know which I voted for :)

You just can't beat the Skyline for all around fun. Though they other two would do better in the dirt. That is where it would end and they would never catch up.

Oh and for the record the Skyline GTR is not full time 4wd. It uses the ATTESSA system so it is 2wd until either the G-force sensor or traction sensor instructs the computer to apply front wheel torque. That is when the fun begins :)

Skyline in V-spec is a flawed car full stop. what with the induced oversteer, it cant be taken seriously.
Evo 6 for me

cheers,
jay

well thats csaue it handles more like a FR car, cuase its not full time 4WD. even though i do admit that the evo6 is a damned fast car. i would still pick the gt-r.

there are a lot of FR cars that dont behave like the GT-R. It's been programmed to oversteer without even being provoked, a kind of party trick, which i find pathetic. Still a good car in other ways, but doesnt touch the evo6

cheers
jay

since i dont' own a GT-R and i don't think i will ever get a chance to drive one. hmmmmmm will some GT-R owner come in here to defend their cars?

I don't know where you get your information at mate, but they are not programmed to oversteer. You get the best of both worlds without constant 4wd bullshit. Full time 4wd is for people who just plain and simply don't know how to drive or for off road use.

I have no problem with over steer or understeer. I have enduced small amounts of oversteer being stupid but the computer engages front wheel torque and it just straightens you out. I have done 7,000rpm launches and track in a straight line. I have also seen quite a few GTR's doing that on a regular basis without blowing the gearbox. How many times do you think a subbie or Evo can do that while pushing over 400hp without shitting something? Not may so don't even kid yourself.

Now I have seen subbies and Evo's go into oversteer quite a bit, it is all on how you drive. Guys in Japan drift GTR's but they do it with the fuse pulled so it is only 2wd.

nice one RAZORGTst :smoka:

Yea well nothing hacks me off more than someone who thinks they know all about every car made. I don't know how many times people who have never owned or driven a Skyline GTR, spit out the stupidest things. Sorry to say most seem to be from the States. I think those who do are either assuming based off of bits and pieces of information or that vid of the R34 GTR where the guy is throwing it sideways on a run way.
Just for the record that was oversteer was enduced at over 65mph! How many cars would have come right at that speed!

If you want to know more about Skylines then do some reading and ask the right people before making assumptions.

gee whiz pal, sorry for "hacking you off". i dont know how ill be able to sleep tonight.
and no, i dont think i know everything about every car made. i never claimed i did, so dont put words in my mouth
i am not fortunate enough to have driven a Skyline, so just as you suggest in your eloquent post, i had done some reading about the R34 and seen a few vids, albeit not the one you mention in your post. and in separate cases by separate testers, they both say exactly the same thing. too much oversteer when the car isnt provoked, the car is engineered to behave in this way (in V-spec i believe)
so thank you very much, i am not spouting sh*t or making stupid comments. if you want to insult peoples' intelligence go do it elsewhere

cheers,
jay

can i bitch about how much i hate skylines some more!?!?! pleeeeeeeeease...........

AND NO CRAZYZAYJAY YOURE ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY WRONG! THE SKYLINE WAS HANDCRAFTED BY GOD HIMSELF! THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH IT AT ALL!!! (jk :D )

anyway, i voted lancer evo....rally heritage, AND it looks great....id take it over a skyline and an STI anyday.......but i will concede that the r34 is one SICK lookin car, just too big and bulky lookin for me....but of course its performance counters that.....

Actually I would take an EVO over a Subbie any day. They are nimble cars and the performance is quite astounding for what they are. Of all the EVO's made my personal preference would be the I - III. I like the styling much better than the newer versions. Also they are lighter which would equate to a better performance figure. Though technology does have it's advantages. A very good mate of mine has an EVOII and we have had lots of fun in that car :) Once I am out of my purchase warrenty period we will be having some good goes with each other on the tracks. Both drags and circut.

crayzayjay can you provide me with a website that you got your information off of or at least some of the information you got? I would really like to go and see it.
I have been in a few R34 GTR's including the non-Vspec, Vspec I and Vspec II and i can tell you from first hand experience that from a dead start if you launch or take off rapidly in a turn you can get them sideways but then the front wheels kick in and ruins your fun. That is what the ATTESSA system does. Remember it is 2wd until the computer gets a signal from one of 6 sensors, two on the front wheels, two on the rear wheels, a latteral and horizontal g-force sensor. So there is a bit of a delay before torque is applied to the front wheels, hence the ability to get the car sideways.

I am sorry about spouting off like that. I was having a bad day and should not have done that. I usually try and educate people first, but just jumped instead. For that I was wrong.

Dont worry about it, i had a few of those myself this week.. at the end of the day you cant criticise someone for liking something, right? you can only give your own opinion on an issue so as long as everyone does that things are ok :)

I didnt get any of my info from any websites, im not really a Skyline fanatic so i dont look it up on the web. i did however see it reviewed on a French satellite channel (called Moteurs i think), they liked it but said it oversteered too much without enough provocation and also on an Italian satellite channel (i think it was Nuvolari or something like that) but since i dont speak italian i dont really know what the guy said about it, he seemed to like it a lot though. the only article i have is the 1999 Car of the year issue of EVO magazine (Jan 2000) where i got my info from, where several journos who drove it (7) found it to be very fast, but flawed... if you dont have access to the mag, heres what they found: "power on oversteer isnt a consequence for the slab muscled nissan, more a well honed party trick. its programmed to do it and the result can feel a tad contrived". R34 started as top 3 contender (along GT3 and Modena), but the V-spec suspension was criticised as too hard, as was the lazy engine and throttle response. "when the torque's redistributed it feels like all the wheels are pointed in different directions"... Overall the car finished 9th out of 12, racking up 4 times less points than the overall winner, the GT3, which finished narrowly in front of the 360. The Impreza RB5 was also in the event and came 3rd.

so thats what i base my opinions on, 8 so-called motoring experts who found the same results. since i havent had the chance to drive the car i simply make my own deduction from what i see/hear/read as long as its from more than one solid source.

cheers,
jay

well, i havent driven any of them, but i voted 22b cuz its my cars big mean brother! however id shit all over myself if if someone handed me the keys to any one of them, so just cuz i pick one doesnt mean i dont like the others!

razor, youre a lucky guy to live in a place where those cars roam free...

Well for a while any how. The government is putting a stop to the R32's coming in by passing some stupid frontal impact standard thing which because the R32 did not have the little sticker from Japan on it, they are not allowed to bring anymore in. Funny as the front bar is the same on the R33 well the construction and design is. The Goverment wants cars that fold up in a front to abosrb the impact instead of staying in tact. Go figure.

crayzayjay now it is begining to make sence. I think what they are refering to is that since they are assuming that the GTR is 4wd oversteer should not be an issue. I can see the confusion in this. Also based on the date of that mag you posted that would have been a first generation R34 Vspec. Nissan must have had a something a-miss for some odd reason, anything is possible. I think what they are feeling or experiencing is the delay when the computer applied front wheel torque to sort out the wheel spin. It is also very possible one or more of the sensors would have been playing up. I would have had to see a video of it to be more sure though. Either way that is how they saw it and nothing anyone says will change the outcome now.

Lets just say I know you can throw a GTR around if you are brave enough, but one has to remember to keep your foot into it or it will go absolutely stupid and oversteer like an RWD car. It is hard to explain without writing a novel on the ATTESSA system and how and why it works as it does.

I dont see the true monsters up their named Diablo and 911 Turbo S. Either of those would get my vote.

YogsVR4>
lets see..... 444bhp, 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, 0-100 in 8.9? yeah, the 911 Turbo S was a beast alright :D . I used to see a dark blue one every day minutes from my house. The thing looked awesome yet he never seemed to drive it that fast. Maybe he was scared :D

cheers,
jay

Razorgtst>

Yeah youre absolutely right the cars in question were both 1st generation R34 V-specs, so im sure there was notable improvement in the later cars. The testers were aware of the whizz-bang electronics, their findings were as i described them. Regardless of this, my favourite Skylines were the R33's purely for their looks, much sleeker than the cartoony R34

cheers,
jay

You want real AWD monsters? Then put some not japanese cars in this poll , like RUF CTR2 , Porsche 959 , Lamborghini Murcielago , Diablo VT , Audi RS4 etc. Anyway from those , skyline please , possibily a Nismo 400R , because there's not even a single one outside japan...

Originally posted by Tom_S8
You want real AWD monsters? Then put some not japanese cars in this poll , like RUF CTR2 , Porsche 959 , Lamborghini Murcielago , Diablo VT , Audi RS4 etc. Anyway from those , skyline please , possibily a Nismo 400R , because there's not even a single one outside japan...

yes yes :) 400R! Thats the big daddy of all the Skylines :D

Any how, I voted Nissan all the way because it has the best AWD system out of the three, better potential for HP and for handeling. And I trust Nissan and Nismo more then I do Scoob and Mitsi.

I donno though, Ghosn better be serious about bringing the GTR back with avengence in 2004 or he may lose a supporter. (yea I know, I'm sure it would really hurt his fealings if I stopped likeing nissan :D:D)

I dont know... i wouldnt really call the RS4 a monster. i just saw my neighbour's wife driving it around with their baby at a snail's pace... its more of an effortless pace kind of car than a savage brute

cheers,
jay

I just wanted to compare Japanese AWD cars...since this was done in CAR (a UK mag).

Originally posted by crayzayjay
I dont know... i wouldnt really call the RS4 a monster. i just saw my neighbour's wife driving it around with their baby at a snail's pace... its more of an effortless pace kind of car than a savage brute

cheers,
jay

Yeah i know but it has some power if you want you can use it , but that's how it is right now , they don't make sport cars like they did a couple years ago... like the new porsche turbo , you can get it with tiptronic , that's too much , but even with manual it's a bit like playing a video game IMO , i'll probably get a lot of stick for that , but that's my honest opinion... Anyway an RS4 tuned to 500+ hp with a good driver and aftermarket suspension would be really nice...

Anyway the turbos aren't like the ones before...

My favourite is porsche 930 3.3T from 1978
4 speed
110 km/h in the 1st
This car was simply a pure :devil:
A little mistake and you're going sideways , but it wasn't awd so it doesn't count here...

i know exactly what you mean. cars are getting "softer" and easier to drive. I dont like it either

I just have to throw in the Nissan Pulsar GTIR, and T4 Primera. Both cars are never spoken of and hold thier own.

boy thats a hard choice.

if money wasnt the fact, i would probably get the gtr.
22b is a limited production so i probably wouldnt be able to get my hands on one. but faster than a evo in dirt and corners.
evo VI makinen edition is really not my style, i like the evo VI gsr front with the fog lights better.

overall i like them all. but if its technology wise, i would say the skyline is the awd monster. if you look at it as just a normal awd i say still the skyline with the attesa steering.

omg i just saw the most unusual race just right now online. its on bestmotoring international. it was a snow battle with street R34 GT-R a EVO 6 GSR and a WRX STi. well to my surprise the GT-R did better on the snow with its street setup then i thought i would do. either way the evo burned both of them and the GT-R and STi were a pretty close race. and i also saw a V-Spec II and a V-Spec I drag and the V-Spec II really is a 12 second car. it did a 12.9 second pass when the V-Spec I did a 13 second flat pass.

Not so surprising considering the shorter wheelbase of the EVO. I like all three, but for road racing, I'll stick with my '32. 3's and 4's are too heavy, the EVO has a nasty habit of breaking diffs above four hundred HP, and the Subaru like's to drop second above the same. :p

isn't a stock R34 much better for road racing then a stock R32? since the 32 still has alot of stuff is still done mechanically isn't of electronically. sooo its more primative and less precise. caseu from everythign that've seen, the R32 has a problem wiht understeering which they fixed in the R34's and its ATTESSA-ETS pro is much better then the R32's and soo is the super HICAS. plus i doubt the R32 was able to hit a 12 second quarter mile like the R34 v-spec II can. plus the R34 has much better brakes sooo in a brakin duel the R34 would win as well and it also as underbody defusers to aid it in high speeds. but non the less the R32 is still an awesome car. even though its like the father of the later GT-R's.

Au Contrere,
The R32 is faster than the R34 in the quarter. The small increase in torque does not overcome the large weight difference and increased drag in the 34. Nagata pulled a 12.6 in a completely stock form for Option magazine (Aug H9) In stock form, the R34 is a better road racer, but it's electronic advantages tend to overrun the car. Most people running the circuits in Japan disable HICAS in both cars as it makes them a tad unstable at speeds above 170 KM/h (which is more expensive on the R34 as you have to weld in steel bars to prevent HICAS activation vs. pulling a fuse in the R32. You can also pull a seperate fuse to disable the 4wd (I installed a toggle switch next to my boost controller:)) The speed at which 4WD engages is almost unnoticeable between the two cars to the drivers. Both cars when suspension and body roll is tuned pull about the same on the skid pad...1.04-1.08. The R32 is also much cheaper to tune:)
The only advantage of the R34 I see is that it's a new car.

And by the way, the R34 GTR, VSpec, VSpec II, and M-Spec all have the same output (Torque and HP) from 98-02. The only one that's a little different is the NUR edition (sporting N1 turbines and pistons), but it f'cking heavy and you'd have to be crazy to tune that car anyway...being that it's limited edition (unless of course you buy two:)).

hmmmm but isn't the ratio's taller on the R32 since its only a 5 speed? i would expect it to be slower becase of the lower torque and taller gearing. but then i could be wrong. but what i'm wonderin is why do people disable the HICAS and ATTESSA pro? thats what makes hte skyline famous. oh wellz. i guess in japan if you can't drift hte car. you can't be happy lolz

Hicas is good for a road car and average/good drivers.

But when you want to push the GTR to the limit, and feel what is going on, Hicas can confuse this. Hence they remove it.
Or if you just like to get even more loose in it. :D

GTR vs EVO vs WRX... pointless discussion.

One is made for the road and track and will always dominate over full time, more FWD cars...

Originally posted by GTS-4 Ben
One is made for the road and track and will always dominate over full time, more FWD cars...

yes one is made for the track and will always win on a track, and the other 2 are made for more real world conditions whith extremely tight roads and loose conditions and will always dominate over the other. u know some rallya are run on the tarmac right? wonder why u dont see many skylines rallying.

The subbie and Evo are great fun dirt cars. Put them on a tarmac race track the the heavier GTR will eat them up for lunch.

They were banned from all Australian Motorsports racing, and that was against the V8 Super Cars. The GTR is home tearing up the tarmac, the Subbie and Evo would eat it for lunch in ralley. Hence they are not used in Ralley.

Now Rod millian took an R33 GTR up pikes peak faster than any other production made car. A record as far as I know still stands. That is real life :)

Damn right!
I laugh so hard when all these young guys driving EVO's and WRX's around the street think they are driving a F1 or something?? When it comes down to it on the tarmac, they end up understeering into a bank.
That is life.
EVO/WRX will never be a drag car
EVO/WRX will never be better than a GTR on a road track, no matter how tight.. do we need to go to Germany.

One of our GTR's did a 11.6 1/4 with stock turbo's, Fuel, Intercooler...
You would have to spend $50,000 on a WRX or EVO to come close.
And then it would need a special gearbox and suspension setup... our GTR is setup for the road, not drag racing...

i'll vote evo.... jackie chan used to own one... :biggrin2:

i don't think the hicas and the attessa does that much, casue in the older issue of sportcompact car, they had rhy millen test drive both, and he was able to bury the throttle all the way and power through a turn and full speed, the harder he pushed it, the faster it went. he felt the computers intervining, but it didn't bother him. when he was in the nsx. the harder he pushed it, the more tail happy it got. sooo the time difference was by 2 seconds between those two cars. and i woudlnt exactly call rhy millen a rookie. hes able to drift with no hands on the wheel. soooo i think its just a matter of preference i guess. but the hicas doens't not hurt the cars performance when its put to the limits. other wise. why would they even put it there in the first the place? am i right?

If you get use to it, it's cool ;)

Originally posted by GTS-4 Ben
Damn right!
I laugh so hard when all these young guys driving EVO's and WRX's around the street think they are driving a F1 or something?? When it comes down to it on the tarmac, they end up understeering into a bank.
That is life.
EVO/WRX will never be a drag car
EVO/WRX will never be better than a GTR on a road track, no matter how tight.. do we need to go to Germany.

One of our GTR's did a 11.6 1/4 with stock turbo's, Fuel, Intercooler...
You would have to spend $50,000 on a WRX or EVO to come close.
And then it would need a special gearbox and suspension setup... our GTR is setup for the road, not drag racing...

hey i said the skyline would win on a conventional road track, but i also said the wrx or evo would win on a tight technical course with potholed corners and little patches of loose gravel and maybe a little rain every so often, u know the kinda conditions u see in real life... u cant tell me a skyline is gonna get around a 180 degree hairpin turn with a little loose gravel sprayed across the middle of the turn quicker than the wrx or evo. if it could do that, then u would see a lot more skyline rallying.

u think its funny when u see "EVO's and WRX's around the street think they are driving a f1 or something" well i laugh when i see skyline drivers think the same thing. u act like god himself designed the skyline.

Btw Razorgtst, the skyline was not "banned from all australian motorsport", it contested only one championship, the Australian touring car championship:rolleyes: . It's main competitor in those series was the Ford Seirra.

Three cars built for two different scenes, end of argument.

I don't think GOd made the skyline... but I think as a road car it is alot better then any full time 4WD car...

I have driven alot of all, even new model WRX's and EVO's I am just not satisfied with them. They do pull alot of Chicks somehow?

sure a skyline is not gonna get around a 180 degree hairpin turn with a little loose gravel sprayed across the middle of the turn quicker than the wrx or evo. That is a rare conditon and it wouldn't be far behind.

okay how bout this, the skyline is a road racing car, the wrx and evo are rally cars. it doesnt make sense to compare them, so lets stop trying to prove one or the other is better. they are all 3 very awesome cars, late just leave it at that alright?

I don't think GOd made the skyline... but I think as a road car it is alot better then any full time 4WD car...

imo, there are many better 4wd cars than the skyline

True ldelaysionl.


Name some crayzayjay.. that don't cost so much that only millionares can buy... and that are not full time 4WD.

why not full-time 4WD? i was replying to:
I think as a road car it is alot better then any full time 4WD car...


anyway,

996 Turbo
993 Turbo
Carrera 4
Lancia Integrale EVO
Lancia Hyena ;)
Audi Quattro 20V
Audi RS2
Impreza P1
Impreza 22B
Impreza RB5
EVO VI RS Sprint
EVO VI Makkinen Edition
EVO VII
Diablo VT (are we getting into millionaire territory here?)
EB110 (Yep!)

there are more to name but you're right there is no point comparing it to much more expensive cars.. anyway... that'll do for now... awaiting criticism,
jay :D

what do you think about the new Audi RS6? I think it qualifies as an AWD monster... 4.2 Biturbo V8 with 450 hp , 6 speed stick shift and audi's quattro 4WD drivetrain... just wait till they start tuning the enigne... intake , exhaust , BOV , increase the turbo pressure a bit... bah - 600 hp... At least that's what i think will be happening...

the RS6 isnt even out yet is it? or is it just been released in germany. it definitely isnt out over here in the UK and we normally get em soon after the germans.

as for the comparison, the R34 would win, its AWD is way more tuned to the road.

and i always thought that the skyline was permanent 4wd, but it shifted the torque so there was only about 20% at the front wheels/80% at the back instead of full RWD???

Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R
the RS6 isnt even out yet is it? or is it just been released in germany. it definitely isnt out over here in the UK and we normally get em soon after the germans.

as for the comparison, the R34 would win, its AWD is way more tuned to the road.

and i always thought that the skyline was permanent 4wd, but it shifted the torque so there was only about 20% at the front wheels/80% at the back instead of full RWD???

The ATESSA system (in skylines) is a permanent RWD system until the car starts to spin/slide etc. or you set it some other way...

i would pick the mitsubishi! its sweet!:bandit: :smoka: :smoker2: :ylsuper

Honestly, there are so many Skyline addicts on this site, its pointless putting a GTR in a poll because it will always win. Unless you pit it against a 911 or a ferrari, and even then it would be close.:)

The thing is, Tom, that most of the RS6's parts are already high performance. It would be difficult (or expensive) to find/make an intake that could be an improvement over the stock one.

Actually Im just ranting. I dont really know what that V8 is made of.

To MattyG---> yeh there are alot of Skyline addicts on here because it is a brilliant car that will make a lot of more expensive cars look stupid. Its easily the best car out of Japan. And its also very tunable. There are better cars out there, but its hard to think of any in the same price range (except perhaps TVRs)

To Tom_S8---> are there any Audi tuning houses, i heard of a few for Merc's and BMW's but neva for Audi.

you've never heard of audi tuning houses?

under a brick eh?

what about total audi performance, which i believe is in canada, or oettinger, or apr down in alabama... some really hardcore companies building fast cars...

and that doesn't include europe...

the dtm audi tt v8 cars were made by an independent company, not audi, so you better count them too... v8 audi tt... hmm...

Originally posted by flylwsi
you've never heard of audi tuning houses?

under a brick eh?

what about total audi performance, which i believe is in canada, or oettinger, or apr down in alabama... some really hardcore companies building fast cars...

and that doesn't include europe...

the dtm audi tt v8 cars were made by an independent company, not audi, so you better count them too... v8 audi tt... hmm...

not from the US, so no clue about any of US ones you mentioned. but anyway i kinda shouldnt have posted that cos thinkin about it i do know of some tunin houses (Abt (they make the V8 Audi TT), MTM), but none as high profile as Brabus (or even AMG) or Alpina (or M GmbH) are to Merc and BMW.

Back in the 80s, Treser was a major Audi tuner, like right now how dinan is for BMW.

Im surprised Tom didnt mention it...

Treser Info (http://home.arcor.de/bmaj.roesner/etres.htm)

sure a skyline is not gonna get around a 180 degree hairpin turn with a little loose gravel sprayed across the middle of the turn quicker than the wrx or evo. That is a rare conditon and it wouldn't be far behind.

Were do you live? those conditions come up all the time in real life. Maybe not 180 degrees all the time but close. I have talked to people who have driven the R34 one who owns a R33 one too and they said its not better than 4wd for every day driving. In real life you have rain, sand, oil, ice, snow and they said 4wd just kicks ass in real life and in the twisties but they all still loved the skyline. And the one who has one said the Atessa system is a pain he said its like a big brother when your driving he feels its for people who sshouldnt be driving a sports car like the skyline.


Also GTS-4 Ben stop ranking on 4wd cars I think it makes perfect sence to street race a 4wd car.

And one more thing if 4wd cars have so much understeer how does that make them for people who cant drive?