my engine

I have a 66 GTO with a 400cid engine from a 73 Grandville and am getting ready to have the engine rebuilt. I know very little about engines. I would like to open up the hood scoops on the car to make functional ram air but am not sure what to tell the engine shop to do the engine. I'm not really sure what changes should be made to the engine to set it up for ram air, but i'd like to be able to go into the shop and tell them exactly what needs to be done. I'd like to get about 475 horse power from the engine, how hard is that to achieve from a 400 engine?
I know many of you probably have the knowledge to help me, and i would really appreciate all replies.

475hp from a 400cid Pontiac: can be a very streetable 350-375hp engine with 100-125hp shot of Nitrous Oxide --OR-- a forged pistoned, race gas burning, roller cammed, fire breathing monster without Nitrous Oxide. Do you plan to drive it on the street or at the drag strip?

Your question is a good one, however it's all about money.

The first thing is this JUNK YOUR STOCK RODS, the factory rods are junk, they will not hold anything beyond 5500 and if you work on them you might get 5800 but would you trust them?

The work is in the heads, you will get the most power from a set of aftermarket heads, however some factory head work great, however by the time you get a set of non factory HP heads to flow your money would have been better spent on aftermarket heads.

The bottom end, a stroker kit, that said you get a new crank new rods and pistons all balanced and ready to be put in.

The block, if its not cracked or damaged in some way take it and have it line HONED this is when the crank lives it will fix any problems that may have been caused and might fix any factory casting problem, then you would ask for a .40 over bore, you may need to go more the machine shop will talk to you about that,then have the block squared this makes the block even so that you get the same ammout of compression in each bore.

I had my block machined with a Line hone , squared, hot tanked and the cam bearings installed and .30 over and it cost me $407 . The crank kit can vary from what rods and pistions and such you want, but it's worth every penny.

The best thing to do is look on the net for Pontiac only engine builders like KRE and Butler they will guide you the right way, but dont think it come cheap, and no matter what dont use your factory rods even if they are SD rods they are like rubber compared to a 1987 stock chevy engine.

If you want to my webpage has lots of stuff for people who are just starting out with Pontiac engines and I have the links to these people I just talked about.

http://www.geocities.com/RAMairGTO72

let me know if this helped

Not to get into a disagreement, but a couple of things here. The SD rods are hardly junk. The 421 SD rods are more desirable than the 455 SD rods. They LOOK like the "rubber" rods, but are 4340 steel and Rockwell in the 36 range. VERY tough. And as tough as they are, they are even rarer... Forget the factory rods altogether. The hot lick today is the Eagle for a high horsepower application, or the C.A.T. I-beam for a stocker. Both are "better" than any of the factory rods.
The amount of time (money) to get a pair of factory heads to flow and perform like the E-heads or KREs, DOES make the aftermarket head a better buy. But to make 500 horsepower, iron heads need much less wortk than that. We have a "package", where you can get 240 CFM (intake) and 200 (exhaust), easily enough to support 500 horsepower. Including valves, springs, guides, studs, et al, they run out the door at about $1,300. That's significantly less than the $1,700-plus you'ld have tied up in the aluminum ones.
Making 500 horsepower on 93 octane is also quite doable with the 400. It DOES take money... We have MANY 400s out there over 400 horse, getting reasonable fuel economy (around 15-16 MPG).
Get "the book". That is, Jim Hand's "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s". It's available at most book stores, or Performance Years, Ames Performance, BOP Engineering, and many other Pontiac-specific outlets. And yes, use a Pontiac guy. Too many Pontiacs have been shit-canned with broken parts because someone assumed they were built to perform in the same fashion as the small block. What makes a small block run well, will KILL the Pontiac. What makes the Pontiac run well, will make a turd out of the small block.

Not to get into a disagreement, but a couple of things here. The SD rods are hardly junk. The 421 SD rods are more desirable than the 455 SD rods. They LOOK like the "rubber" rods, but are 4340 steel and Rockwell in the 36 range. VERY tough. And as tough as they are, they are even rarer... Forget the factory rods altogether. The hot lick today is the Eagle for a high horsepower application, or the C.A.T. I-beam for a stocker. Both are "better" than any of the factory rods.
The amount of time (money) to get a pair of factory heads to flow and perform like the E-heads or KREs, DOES make the aftermarket head a better buy. But to make 500 horsepower, iron heads need much less wortk than that. We have a "package", where you can get 240 CFM (intake) and 200 (exhaust), easily enough to support 500 horsepower. Including valves, springs, guides, studs, et al, they run out the door at about $1,300. That's significantly less than the $1,700-plus you'ld have tied up in the aluminum ones.
Making 500 horsepower on 93 octane is also quite doable with the 400. It DOES take money... We have MANY 400s out there over 400 horse, getting reasonable fuel economy (around 15-16 MPG).
Get "the book". That is, Jim Hand's "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s". It's available at most book stores, or Performance Years, Ames Performance, BOP Engineering, and many other Pontiac-specific outlets. And yes, use a Pontiac guy. Too many Pontiacs have been shit-canned with broken parts because someone assumed they were built to perform in the same fashion as the small block. What makes a small block run well, will KILL the Pontiac. What makes the Pontiac run well, will make a turd out of the small block.


Finding the "good Rods" would be like finding Ram Air 5 heads, and the price is silly.

Are you useing ported 6x heads to make those flow numbers?
I just got my HPP mag and they were talking about how to many people miss match parts and then goto the "Dark Side" (Chevy) because they don't see the HP, they also talked about aftermarket pistons not being able to make the correct compression, I have a set of TRWs in one of my 400s, the one in my GTO right now, i'm sure if I didnt have a set of shaved #13 ported that my proformance would have been "poor".

I will say this, if your building HP dont be crying about getting bad MPG! i'm sure if you have a port injection you can cry about bad MPG , however with a carb, and 450hp it's going to be not so good.

I KRE or Butler bottom end is the best thing going outside a Gen 2 Pontiac block. I would go with a whole bottom end they sell, it's just to easy {465"+} out of a 400! Man we have it good!

My next step is that block, with forced induction.

Good luck

I agree, finding a set of SD rods is a waste of time. The Eagle rod is FAR superior, and available with a phone call. There are those that swear by the Crower Sprtsman rod, too, but I feel you get more for your money with the Eagle. My point was simply that the SD rods were excellent peices, especially the 421 stuff.
The stroker kits are from Eagle. Right now, cranks are back-ordered and no word on when that will change. They do assure us, they ARE coming... The Butler and KRE "kits" use mostly the Eagle parts. We've installed no less than 30 of them over the last three years. Awesome combination! We buy directly from Eagle.
One of our guys went 10.58 @ 127 at PIP last month, on 93 octane and a flat tappet cam, 461 CID, 3,400 lb. '70 Firebird. He revs it to 6,500 on every pass. Last time around, over 300 runs when he burned a ring on his chassis dyno. Rods, crank and bearings were just about perfect. Right at 640 HP.
Before you get too deep into buying parts, get Jim Hand's book "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" from SA Designs. The book is a current study of the old Injun. You would be amazed at all the power these engines are making with application of a few modern peices!
If you're speaking of I/A II block by "allpontiacs.com", it looks good, but thare have been some "issues" with the early ones. I would think they've straightened it out by now. KRE is also releasing a block in the very near future. It has more traditional Pontiac engineering features, combined with the VERY stout valley the original I/A and II blocks have. One of our guys has I/A (I), big bore/short stroke combo (4.375"x3.75"). if you've never heard a Pontiac at 7,800 RPM and still pulling hard, it's a treat! ('70 GTO, 3,400 lb. race weight, 10" tire, foot btrake, 10.07 @ 133) Of course, we all know you can't make power OR revs with a Pontiac... Yah, right...

7,800 lol, I was a Norwalk a few times I watched all of them run, even the Brothers twin hair dryer.It's great they they do that, Pontiac people are some of the die hardest people around, if not the hardest, just look at my GTO engine thred:)

Crower Sprtsman rods, yes you seem to se them in alot of build ups, however the way I see it is, if your going to build a solid bottom end you go with Olivers rods, a bit on the high side, but when you have a Arma Steel bottom end and hit the high side of 5500 you start thinking about such times when you dont have to think about those rods.

Man I have to tell you I bought that book tonight, I spent some time on the can with it, so far it's great, but I think whats missing is "aftermarket" parts, sure they had a few but what about all the new heads that have been out for a while?

Those SD rods are like trying to find that guy that owns 2 Alum 400, he was in HPP once and said he was going to the grave with them AHHHHHH. Or how about M/T's Hemi heads! You know I have the 1960s "HOT ROD" PONTIAC hand book, that has that engine in it!!! I think it said .64 for the price on the front.

You correct about the IA 1st Gen but they fixed it in the Gen 2s It was said that they cracked around 970hp,. Can you see spending 3G and going to race that Dick chevy guy and the block cracks, omg. You would think that they would have gotten it correct the fist time.

As for a repo factory blocks go, i'm not nuts on the deal, I think that if the Gen 2 works great people buying that will drive down the price, it's still high VS a Alm Chevy BB.

I think it your a machine shop? If so where are you at?

72,
Allpontiacs.com didn't "fix" anything in I/A (I). They made changes to make it cheaper to manufacture, at a cost of durability. The particular area I'm speaking of, is their claim to "registered mains" being better than "doweled mains". This is an erroneous statement, from an engineering point of view. Registered mains (ala Chevrolet) have 90 degrees of support for each side of the cap. It can "walk" back and forth. Chevrolet engines at high horsepower have significant cap-walk issues.
A doweled cap has support at 360 degrees. The KRE block is different from the I/A II in that regard. Pontiac knew in 1955, dowels are better. The MAIN issue of valley weakness and splitting the block above certain power levels is addressed by BOTH blocks. They actually resemble Merlin in the valley. We have had zero reports of I/A (I) blocks breaking under ANY conditions, short of flying parts. They were NHRA certified to 3,000 horsepower. The same is true of the sequel. We know of one bumping the 2,000 mark, with no problems after three years of racing. Be careful of sales hype...
The REAL news from Allpontiacs.com is the Tiger head. THAT will change EVERYTHING, once they get the details straight. Valve train issues still exist, so it has not yet een released. Out of the box, it flows better than ANY modified Edelbrock anyone has reported. The potential for over 500 CFM per intake port is there! You could be seeing some NHRA competitive ProMod, SuperGas and maybe even a ProStock or two, sporting the Injun. It's a very exciting time for Pontiac people. Chevy boys are getting nerveous all across this country! Old guys will tell you, when Pontiacs have good parts, they ARE among the best race engines.
We had Pontiacs in the Park last month here, just outside of Richmond (Dinwiddie). John Welter made the quickest pass in Pontiac history (6.82 @ 204). It was a '02 Grand Am body (former ProStock, I think) with a 440 CID, single turbo on methynol. While the 6.82 is the quickest, the 204 isn't even close to MPH. Arnie went 7.0s at about 225 back in the early '70s in his nitro funny car.
Yup, we get a crowd around Dalton's GTO in the pits after he goes one of those 10.0s. They all want to now what size BBC is in there. They just can't believe a Pontiac can rev like that without leaving its' rods on the track. Some old myths just never die... When they find out is isn't even a "big" motor (452 CID), they just walk away, shaking their heads and mumbling. We LOVE it!
The book was published last Summer. The KRE D-port was just about to be released. The pic in the book was one of the prototypes. I've installed some of these. GREAT head, especially for a ballsy street engine. The Edelbrock head was considered outside the scope of the book. Jim did a helluva job putting it together. My portion was Chapter 2, "Building Your Shortblock". My shop is the first one listed in the back with "recipes".
The target audience of the book is not the racer, but the guy that wants a stout street engine that IS raceable. There have been many discussions concerning this. Others have voiced their opinion similar to yours, that there should be more aftermarket stuff in there.
The Pontiac crowds (there are a couple of branch-offs developing with all this new stuff) are kinda funny. Many still approach building a racer like they did when aftermarket stuff didn't exist. The leaders are taking their ques from the other racers. More and more, they're showing up with sheet metal intakes, Flying Toilets, blowers, turbos, etc. With all the new goodies, one must step up to the plate, and understand, the old guard won't survive. To compete against the Chevys and Fords, one must spend the money just like the Chevy and Ford guys do. The days of building a 350 Chevy for brackets, and actually competing, are long gone. One must get all the aftermarket goodies, including blocks, cranks, heads, etc.
FWIW, we've used Eagle rods in 1,500 HP BBCs without problems (same part number we use in the Pontiacs). After 500 1/4 mile passes, zero out-of-round, zero stretch. Even the bolts were still fine. Oliver is certainly a great rod, but for all but the high-end racer, MASSIVE overkill. At 1/3 the price, the Eagle is a much better rod. Crowerods (the billets) fall into the same level and category as the Olivers.
Really, in Pontiacs, high-end rods are never necessary. Mainly because once you get to a certain point of power production, you "move up" to aluminum rods. Fowler or BRC are the rods of choice there. We've not found the power limit of the Eagles in any street engine.
Yup, have a shop. It's in Burkeville, VA. I know, "where the hell is Burkeville?" (a caption on some of our T's) Burkeville is 45 miles SW of Richmond on US Rt. 360.

www.centralvirginiamachine.com

Check us out, and gimme a "holler"....

Dude i'm in Richmond! This is great, i'm orignaly from PA but after the Army I ended up here. yep thats your name on page 121

I have been some what worried about finding a good machine shop and even more about finding one that knows pontiacs!

This is good news, I used to goto a place in Erie PA, and allways got some sort of comment about changing to Chevy engines, and shipping to the Butlers was kinda out of my wallet at the time.

I know what your saying about the mains, my best friend runs a 71 Monte and I am able to respond with a number of problems the SBC has. I allways try to bait him into an timed intake remove install race (I have a cut water crossover).

My main cap dowels are SBC head dowels dew to the slightly larger size. I also have SBC lock nuts on my rocker studs.

You correct about NEEDing aftermarket parts to run in Chevy land, unless you have a set of RAMAIR 5s. I have heard that the IA Gen 1 has split right down the cam vally one more then a few engines. I did not know that dowels were not on the list of things to do on the Gen 1, and i'm kinda pissed they did'nt use a Dodge type crank position way up in the block to hold it way better then dowels ever would.

I have been watching the Tiger heads, they are going to sell like hot cakes, and everyone else that has made aftermarket heads should have done this!!!! I was very upset when Edelbrock came out with the RAMAIR 4 "kinda" heads, sure they flow better but it was really nothing untill Butler CNCed them.

I would love to run Alum, rods however i'm not sure of the care that has to be taken on them, like how many runs do you get out of them with an engine running 1,000hp? or do I really have to bring the engine inside during the winter (LOL winter in VA)? I have no room for a weak bottom end, and I will pay good money not to worrie about it.

under my belt have have Pat Ganahls book on forced induction and Earl Davis forced induction/NOS book as well as Tom Monroes Builders guide, along with my backyard mechanics and plan on forced induction innercooled with water injection.

My current engine is the same as on page 132 "Engine Recipe B" the differances are my springs are ERSON and my cam is a Comp Cam 292 501 on both sides. I have not had the crank "custom cut" i'm not sure if they are talking about an "off set" but mine was a PAW redone and checked before installed.

I want to take more advantage of my bigger EX valve and the cam they have listed, the Crower 229/239 480/501 cam looks great, my stall is B&M 2800 however it really dosnt "go" untill 3 or sliglty more, It seems that I run out of rod safty 5500 before the engine makes it's best power, everythings being held together by ARP studs and bolts and I beamed and polished the rods myself after they got 48hours + in my oven at 500. I know I have maybe a little more then 5500 but I don't go that far, however it's happend raceing my buddies SBC 60 over,4speed with Alm heads, and he lost:) What do you think about this cam or a cam for my car, I really like the 292 501 but it seems it works a little to high for my rods, I don't plan on doing much more with this engine, but I want it working good before I move on. The engine has 240 miles on it, I turned the OD back after I put the car together with the engine, the car and engine/trans were rebuilt at the same time.

I will be getting back into everything with Pontiacs next year, I'm not ready to bring the GTO back from Erie PA yet, however after I do I will be calling on you for some engine work, I do hope to keep talkiing to you here from time to time!

Dude,
Use the phone number on the site and call me. We need to talk. There are some issues to be discussed both about the Pontiac and the LSx engine. This forum really isn't the best place to do it. I live in Chesterfield, so we can get together after hours.

Jim

Sorry guy I don't know why or how but the email never got to me about this post...

Sure it would be great to get together , things beenmoving kinda fast here, i'm going out of town for about a week and a 1/2 on top of that I have to go to Walter Reed, it's been crazy here with my better half getting to get stuff done.

I do hope to be putting together a 400 with a stroker in it, I want to "work" with some forced induction, and get some real hands on work under my belt, reading about it is one thing but doing it, is well doing it.

I plan to stop doing anything to the 400 I have now, the botom end is not up to raceing, I don't want to kill a good engine like that, it would do great for sombody with a Bonn or some other big car.....hmm should I buy a big car just for that engine? :)
I would like to get the best cam for what it's able to do, and leave it alone

As far as the ChevyAussiGTO sure that engine may not be true to the SBC but it's what the SBC should be in 2005, I don't think i'm worng about that, even tho it's very different it's bloodlines are Chevy.

I will be here off and on, we have/had a problem with our 02 Jeep Grand, i'm haveing to run around and get stuff done before the trip, as well as other issues with the other jeep and car,...it's all been nuts, as you see it's allmost 2am as well as most my posts, hard time sleeping with all the crap going on.

Did you ever goto the car cruzs outside Target on Hall on? If you did do you know where they go now?

Do you have a Pontiac TQ plate for boreing?

Hope to talk to you soon.

Yup, have a deck plate. Have one for MANY engine families.
Been to Hardy's at Rt. 10 in Chester. Good one there. Honeybee's in Hopewell is another. I hear there's one in Short Pump, but haven't been there.

Have fun on your trip.

Jim

I will be heading out the first week in july, been crazy here.

I never had the TQ plate bolted on when I had my engine done (they didnt have one), tho I did have the mains honed and the block squared, SBC head dowels in place of my main Dowels, ARP studs on the bottom end and the heads and the bolts on the rods. I old wish they had better rods when I was putting it together, tho they had them they were big $$$, I don't think the idea of Chevy rods was really big then.

I still can't get over what you worte about pontiac people likeing the car lol