Question for any members who are citizens of countries with socialized health systems

How much truth is there to the most common argument that people make against socializing medicine in the U.S.- "Look at the countries with socialized health systems, their sick and injured often have to wait for ridiculous periods of time to get help!" This is usually followed up by something along the lines of: "so those people often end up coming to the U.S. to get treatment instead."

See, I'm a supporter of the ideals of socialization for healthcare, or at the least a heavy overhaul of the whole system, instituting new policies that would help the less fortunate or those who lose their coverage. I try to make my point in all this to many people, and many of them reply with the arguments I've listed above. Is this really true? Do many of your citizens end up getting stuck in long waiting lists for treatment? Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I've always considered medicine as being exactly what it is- a social art, designed to help people. Everyone has the right to life, even if their resources don't allow it/ severely inhibit it.

I find it interesting that a lot of these same people who poopoo my idea of socialized medicine also add things like: "That's why so many doctors are coming here from Canada- because they can't survive in their practice there." I usually chuckle and reply that perhaps this is true, but then when they get here they're forced to leave the profession anyways because they can't afford the costs required to insure themselves against medical suits and the like.

Why can't a system where everyone gets the help they need "work right"? Why does a prosthetic leg have to cost $85,000? Why do my grandparents have to pay $800 a month for their prescriptions? Why is it that more and more companies can't afford the cost of providing healthcare for their employees?

-I hate to bring politics into this, but the two are pretty much joined at the hip-

When will we get an administration that seems to give half a rat's-ass about what's happening in our country, instead of worrying about what's happening half a world away?

Bottom line: I don't know whether or not Saddam Hussein really posed any direct threat to us, I don't know whether or not North Korea has/had any malicious intentions with their nuclear program, I don't know if Israel really has any ulterior motives in their "alliance" with us, I don't know how much of the aid money we send to foreign countries supposedly gets "redirected" to militant causes, I don't know if the drug war is really as effective as they say it is. I don't know, and can't be sure WHAT is the truth when it comes to many of our external affairs with the rest of the world. What I DO KNOW FOR SURE, is that there are many people in this country, right now, who aren't able to get the medical treatment they need and deserve, simply because their company refuses to carry healthcare anymore, or their provider buried convenient little clauses deep in their fine print that forbade coverage for items that should seemingly be covered, or find that they have to make the choice between food or prescriptions because they can't afford both. I find it difficult to believe that a government that can fork over $19 billion a year (and rising) on a questionable drug war, $130 billion on a questionable foreign war, untold billions on a convoluted "intelligence" network, and who knows what else, can't seem to juggle around the (obviously) immense amounts of funding available to help provide EVERYONE with health care, or even a good education for that matter! Are the socialized systems in other countries really as ill-functioning as I'm led to believe by many a person here in my country?

A few terms you might want to look up.

Price controls and Litigation.


I am so saddened by the way people think health care is some sort of right that people deserve. Are you a health care professional? Do you work for free? Do you work for a pharmaceutical company? Do you work for free? Do you work for a company that design, builds and does R&D on MRI machines, dialysis machines, or any of a host of others? Do you work for free?

Its easy to say that the government should supply this or that, but the fact is it takes money. It takes it out of everyone's pocket. Of course they won't take it from the people who aren't working or make less then X dollars. Then the government will have to take a portion as well for administrative costs.

Its sad that people somehow think the government can solve their ills by taxing someone ekse so they can get a service. Actually, I'm not saddened - I'm sickened by the sheer laziness of it all. :disappoin













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I was just reading today about the Russians reducing and stopping certain social programs like free health care, free transportation and so on. I forget all the details but its kinda going backwards on what you want.


I agree with Yogs, I pay for my health care every week and its a big chunk of money so I can do to a doctor. If I can afford it and some people can't than it is time to change jobs or start working.

My country has socialized health care, and I love it. My MSP's are about $80 a month, which is fine with me. Two weeks ago, I broke my wrist. I went to the hospital, they took my name down, and I waited for 20 mins before a doctor came and saw me. He checked out my wrist, and half an hour later I was getting an X-ray. Within two hours of arriving I was in a cast, and on my way home. Total cost to me, paying my $80 a month in MSP's. I make about $2200 a month, and out of that the gov't takes around $300 in taxes, Canada Pension plan, EI, and my MSP. That's about the same I'd be paying in taxes in the US, except I get health care, as well as other perks.

If you're at the hospital with an infected hangnail, you can expect you're going to have to wait if there's someone who comes in with a broken wrist, or a serious injury like head trauma. It's basic triage...

For all the right wing rhetoric trying to shoot down universal health care, there is no way that a private providor is going to offer better health care at a lower price, and still make a profit. Beaurocracy is not THAT inefficient, and on top of that, every dollar paid out to a gov't employee will go right back into the economy.

If a doctor only gets paid $150K a year in Canada as opposed to $200K a year in the US, let him go south of the border. If that extra money is more important to him than taking care of his own people, then he isn't a very good doctor. If there is any shortage of doctors in Canada, it's because it's so expensive and it takes 8 years to become a general practitioner. If the gov't was to subsidize tuition, I'm sure we'd have a great deal more doctors.

Ok Cbass how about elective operations?

I don't think elective operations should fall under the term health care.

It works.

Slow at times, but it works.

my principal beef comes about funding for road accident victims.All road users pay a hefty annual charge to the government department responsible for funding accidental injury claims.If you are stupid enough to get drunk,crash your car into a power pole,and break a leg,the government will pay all of your hospital costs [and quite often,postpone a far more worthy patient's operation to get you into the theatre].If you are a responsible driver and do no harm to anyone,you get nothing back,not even a no-claims discount.

That said,whenever my family has needed medical attention,it has been prompt and either free,or at minimal charge.And before Yogs starts pointing out that 'free' is a misnomer,the amount of money taken from my pay to fund it is far more acceptable to me than having to beg some faceless corporation to provide me with cover if I ever become critically ill.

Ok Cbass how about elective operations?

That really depends on the operation. If it's serious, it gets taken care of quickly. If it's something frivolous, it gets put at the end of the waiting list. The waiting list may be long, or there may not even be one, depending on where you are and what you need.

So, it does seem to work for the most part (though it can be slow at times, but then again so can our capitalistic health system.) The sticking points for me (and one of them is hard to stomach because it sort of seems to run in contrast to my general feelings of healthcare for any person,) is indeed the misuse of the system. Things like insurance fraud, frivilous malpractice suits (apparently very popular nowadays,) and the tough one for me: use of the system by illegal aliens. I think this is a tough one for many people because, morally, it just feels wrong to deny someone medical treatment that could save their life. On the other hand, people will come here from other countries with their afflictions, and amazingly seem to have little trouble getting hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of treatment. Meanwhile, Joe 45-hour-a-week with two kids, a wife, and a mortgage is working his ass off, just to pay for health insurance that keeps getting more expensive for him. Only to find out, when he does need to call upon that service, that his company was forced to drop some coverage options, or the fine print leads to a denial of his claim, or he's told that there is a three-year waiting list for something that, if not handled promptly, will kill him in two.

There are many that speak of price controls, litigation, "Getting a better job" (not exactly cut and dry in the current economy) the need for someone to be compensated for R&D, manufacture, etc., and other views. I have no problem with these opinions, but none of them seem to hold water when placed against the thing many won't address, and that is the fact that the funds for these services are already there- they're just being horribly misused. I reference my earlier statements about questionable funding for questionable causes to back up my claim, and I'll add one more for you, and this is the real pisser, that I challenge any fans of the current capitalistic ideals, namely "You can't expect the government to pay for health care." Oh really? Then how come, between 2000 and 2003, the United States government PAYED for 496 breast enlargements, 1,361 liposuction jobs, and an assortment of other "cosmetic" services. Through the first three months of 2004, the government's already funded 60 breast enhancements, and 231 liposuction jobs. All of this for the troops. Just another "perk," huh? Well, how about helping my grandparents afford their prescriptions every month, instead of pumping up G.I. Jane's bust size. How about coming in to aid the recently disabled mother of three who's insurance company won't even split the bill for her rehabilitation equipment. And even in cases where some people are finally able to gain government assistance, it's only after jumping through numerous hoops, possibly involving lawyers and a large amount of paperwork. Thankfully there seems to be many instances in these cases where donations (from private citizens or companies) are ultimately the saving grace. But how many people aren't that lucky?

We have a lot of people in this country, but we also have the world's highest GDP by a huge margin. The backbone is most definately there for a more socialized system of medicine, there's no reason why drastic steps couldn't be taken to remedy this current situation, which is still generally manageable for now, but IS steadily getting worse. Why wait until our backs are against the wall?

I'll add one more for you, and this is the real pisser, that I challenge any fans of the current capitalistic ideals, namely "You can't expect the government to pay for health care." Oh really? Then how come, between 2000 and 2003, the United States government PAYED for 496 breast enlargements, 1,361 liposuction jobs, and an assortment of other "cosmetic" services. Through the first three months of 2004, the government's already funded 60 breast enhancements, and 231 liposuction jobs. All of this for the troops. Just another "perk," huh?

You answered your own question. It's a perk to be used for recruiting. We can both agree that its a bad idea, but its no different then any other employer talking about the coverages they offer to entice you to take their job.

A lot falls back on the position you take about health care. I do not think that its a 'right' at all. Its a service. Potentially a critical one, but not one that you are entitled to. The only things people should be entitled to is to do anything they want as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else right to do their thing.













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