357 hp
351wStang
08-06-2004, 01:35 PM
I'm building a 351w bored .030 (357). I am probably going with AFR 205cc heads, Edelbrock's Victor Jr. intake, Mighty Demon 750cfm, Cammotion's solid roller .657/.664 253/257 110*sep, 10.5:1cr, DSS Pro-Lite fly cut flat tops with forged I-beam rods, stock crank. C6 trans built, shift kit, semi/manual valve body, 3000 stall. 9" rear w/ 3.90 gears.
How much rwhp and tq do you guys think I can expect? Also with a car that weighs about 2900lbs what kind of 1/4 times do you think I should be able to run?
How much rwhp and tq do you guys think I can expect? Also with a car that weighs about 2900lbs what kind of 1/4 times do you think I should be able to run?
duplox
08-06-2004, 06:13 PM
I'd say 430-460fwhp, 375-420rwhp. Should be an 11 second car. You need more carb, more gears, a better trans, more compression, and more stall. Bump the compression to 11:1-11.5:1, get a 3500-5000rpm stall, full manual reverse pattern c4, 4.11 or 4.56 gears(with a locker or a spool, no limited slip crap), put in a proform bodied 750cfm double pumper or somethin similar, and you should be in the 475-525fwhp range, 430-480rwhp. 10 second ETs would be possible with a well setup suspension. I know of a guy who ran a .030 over 351 cleveland(also 357ci..), n/a, spun the motor to 8000rpm with a slightly bigger cam than yours, and ran low 6's in the 8th, which is mid-high 9's in the 1/4. Don't neglect your suspension, its critical to fast ETs!!
351wStang
08-06-2004, 10:43 PM
Well I'm trying to build a car that can be driven on the road and be stiff competition at the track. But I want to stay n/a. I'm sure with a little nitrous I could dip down into the 10's with a C4 and 4.10 gears like you say, but an 11 second n/a street car is fine with me. I also want to keep the compression around 10.5:1 to run on pump gas and a 5000 stall converter wouldnt be very fun to drive on the street. This is a winter project with a fairly low budget and a C6 is what I have, so thats what I'm gonna use for now.
I looked into a roots blower but I couldnt seem to come up with a good combination. Any help there would be appreciated. Just remember I want some streetability. 450rwhp would be fine with me.
I looked into a roots blower but I couldnt seem to come up with a good combination. Any help there would be appreciated. Just remember I want some streetability. 450rwhp would be fine with me.
xyfalconsrock
08-06-2004, 11:40 PM
love the scoop!reminds me of early nas car barracuda scoop.
duplox
08-07-2004, 01:24 AM
looks like one of the BIG boss 429 take off scoops. I have the normal boss 429 scoop on my '69, and thats big to begin with... Thats a BIG scoop you got on there! Not that its a bad thing at all!
Whats yours? A 68 coupe? Despite loving/owning classic mustangs, I just don't have the time to study all the differences between the pre-69 stangs. between the 64.5-68 and 69/70 bodystyles are pretty obvious, but I'm no good at 64.5-68...
For 450rwhp and a c6, you're going to need around 520-530fwhp... Thats a bit of a steep order out of a 357ci smallblock. Not saying its impossible in the least - Dave Storlien made 605hp by 6500rpm on pump gas for his Engine Master's Challenge bid in 2003 with a CHI headed Cleveland that weighed in at 357ci... But he's a professional engine builder and had all the tricks done.. Extremely lightened crank/rods/pistons, perfect clearances, low friction coatings, all the big dollar items you'd expect in a big dollar drag car.. but built for the street. If I were you, I'd definately look into getting a custom cam ground. You're already dropping a lot of cash for a solid roller, a custom solid roller wouldn't be much more. I think a non-roller solid would be perfectly fine for your application and save you a bunch of money to boot. I recommend looking into CHI 185 EMC heads, which are the exact heads and have the exact porting that Dave Storlien did on his EMC engine. IMHO, the best street smallblock head available. You have a mighty scoop on that beast, which just may allow you to squeeze the matching CHI intake in there(its VERY tall, I think somethin like 9 inches!!!). If you went with EFI(which would be ideal), it'd save you some room under the hood since you don't have to fit a carb and air filter, just an elbow. You can get aluminum spacers to fit the CHI intake(the CHI heads/intake are designed for a cleveland, not a windsor). THen again, you were considering a roots blower, so you probably have few reservations about cutting holes in your hood. CHI may have a manifold for the windsor, I'm not sure. Retrofitting cleveland heads to a windsor is quite easy, it just needs the manifold water passages drilled, and I believe a few minor head gasket mods(extra holes cut). There are gaskets designed for this swap out there somewhere if I remember correctly.
Saving weight in your drivetrain is critical. I recommend getting an aluminum driveshaft made, run an aluminum spool(I run a Mosier aluminum spool in my street '69), lightweight axle shafts, aluminum rims, lightweight brake components, etc. Anything you can do to save weight in the drivetrain will not only reduce overall weight, but also allow more power to get to the wheels.
Remember, horsepower is a measurement of accellerating a certain weight to whatever speed. If you reduce the weight, you'll reduce the ammount of horsepower required to accellerate it to a given speed. Basically, less drivetrain weight = more hp to the wheels.
If you don't want a lot of stall, you should try to make your power lower in the powerband. You've got the tall deckheight of the windsor, what about stroking it? 530+hp out of a CHI headed 408ci stroker Clevor(windsor/cleveland hybrid) is not difficult, it just takes a very well matched combination. Whether you take this route or not, I highly recommend contacting Mark McKeown about a cam, especially if you use CHI heads. Despite how new they are, he's already got some experience with them and can grind you a cam that'll suit your combination. He can also give you better recommendations than I can as to the rest of your combo. If I were doing it, I'd build a stroked windsor, ported CHI heads with a CHI intake, custom ground cam, light crank, aluminum 6.25" rods, forged lightweight custom pistons with 1.25" compression height, stud girdle, and fuel injection or a very well built, professionally tuned carb. I'm sure that combo would exceed your expectations. For a moderate weight v8 powered car, I'd put 7000rpm as a max. Mid 500s is hard to achieve out of 357ci if you want your engine to last and not cost a small fortune to build(although the engine I described isn't exactly cheap).
If you need any contact info for any of the people/companies I mentioned, I'd be happy to give them to you. Just let me know.
Whats yours? A 68 coupe? Despite loving/owning classic mustangs, I just don't have the time to study all the differences between the pre-69 stangs. between the 64.5-68 and 69/70 bodystyles are pretty obvious, but I'm no good at 64.5-68...
For 450rwhp and a c6, you're going to need around 520-530fwhp... Thats a bit of a steep order out of a 357ci smallblock. Not saying its impossible in the least - Dave Storlien made 605hp by 6500rpm on pump gas for his Engine Master's Challenge bid in 2003 with a CHI headed Cleveland that weighed in at 357ci... But he's a professional engine builder and had all the tricks done.. Extremely lightened crank/rods/pistons, perfect clearances, low friction coatings, all the big dollar items you'd expect in a big dollar drag car.. but built for the street. If I were you, I'd definately look into getting a custom cam ground. You're already dropping a lot of cash for a solid roller, a custom solid roller wouldn't be much more. I think a non-roller solid would be perfectly fine for your application and save you a bunch of money to boot. I recommend looking into CHI 185 EMC heads, which are the exact heads and have the exact porting that Dave Storlien did on his EMC engine. IMHO, the best street smallblock head available. You have a mighty scoop on that beast, which just may allow you to squeeze the matching CHI intake in there(its VERY tall, I think somethin like 9 inches!!!). If you went with EFI(which would be ideal), it'd save you some room under the hood since you don't have to fit a carb and air filter, just an elbow. You can get aluminum spacers to fit the CHI intake(the CHI heads/intake are designed for a cleveland, not a windsor). THen again, you were considering a roots blower, so you probably have few reservations about cutting holes in your hood. CHI may have a manifold for the windsor, I'm not sure. Retrofitting cleveland heads to a windsor is quite easy, it just needs the manifold water passages drilled, and I believe a few minor head gasket mods(extra holes cut). There are gaskets designed for this swap out there somewhere if I remember correctly.
Saving weight in your drivetrain is critical. I recommend getting an aluminum driveshaft made, run an aluminum spool(I run a Mosier aluminum spool in my street '69), lightweight axle shafts, aluminum rims, lightweight brake components, etc. Anything you can do to save weight in the drivetrain will not only reduce overall weight, but also allow more power to get to the wheels.
Remember, horsepower is a measurement of accellerating a certain weight to whatever speed. If you reduce the weight, you'll reduce the ammount of horsepower required to accellerate it to a given speed. Basically, less drivetrain weight = more hp to the wheels.
If you don't want a lot of stall, you should try to make your power lower in the powerband. You've got the tall deckheight of the windsor, what about stroking it? 530+hp out of a CHI headed 408ci stroker Clevor(windsor/cleveland hybrid) is not difficult, it just takes a very well matched combination. Whether you take this route or not, I highly recommend contacting Mark McKeown about a cam, especially if you use CHI heads. Despite how new they are, he's already got some experience with them and can grind you a cam that'll suit your combination. He can also give you better recommendations than I can as to the rest of your combo. If I were doing it, I'd build a stroked windsor, ported CHI heads with a CHI intake, custom ground cam, light crank, aluminum 6.25" rods, forged lightweight custom pistons with 1.25" compression height, stud girdle, and fuel injection or a very well built, professionally tuned carb. I'm sure that combo would exceed your expectations. For a moderate weight v8 powered car, I'd put 7000rpm as a max. Mid 500s is hard to achieve out of 357ci if you want your engine to last and not cost a small fortune to build(although the engine I described isn't exactly cheap).
If you need any contact info for any of the people/companies I mentioned, I'd be happy to give them to you. Just let me know.
351wStang
08-07-2004, 01:11 PM
Well to start with lol, thats not my car, I just wish it was :). Its a 1965 Coupe. I'm looking at a '66 coupe. Same body style as the '65, I just like the '66 chrome better. Yes it is a massive scoop and yes it is a Boss 429 scoop :). My '66 will have one! A Vic Jr intake with a 750 Mighty Demon and an X-treme flow K&N should be a good enough excuse to cut a hole in a 1966 6cyl coupe hood. I thought about a 393 or a 408, but I decided to save a little money and use the stock crank. So I doubt this car will see a roots blower. Although I am already buying some high dollar rods, another $300 for a decent cast crank wouldnt be the end of the world. I dunno yet lol, alot to think about. Hell I still gotta talk this lady down on her price. I'm not paying $3200 for a '66 cyl auto coupe with rust bubbling around the windsheild and back glass and thats rusted through the wheel well I think where the steering knuckle attaches (3 bolts hold on a saddle looking plate, no clue what it is, didnt get a very good look). This car needs alot of work so I'm probably gonna keep looking. If anyone knows of a '65 or '66 coupe for sale let me know pls. Thanks!
duplox
08-07-2004, 03:46 PM
Search on cars.com, thats where I found my '69 coupe. I just looked briefly and there were numerous v8 powered 66 coupes on there for $4k and below. Probably can find one in better condition than the one you described.
I paid $5500 a couple years ago for my '69:
http://www.turboslut.net/stang.jpg
By the way, the scoop on my car is a replica Boss 429 scoop. The one on the car in your signature is a 'Boss-Pro' scoop, which is basically a Boss 429 scoop on steroids. If you want the Boss-Pro scoop, you can get it at Unlimited Products, www.up22.com, heres a direct link:
http://www.up22.com/mustang67.htm#PR-63
If you want the smaller scoop(still big..) like the one I have, you can get that at Mustangs Unlimited
http://www.mustangsunlimited.com
I paid $5500 a couple years ago for my '69:
http://www.turboslut.net/stang.jpg
By the way, the scoop on my car is a replica Boss 429 scoop. The one on the car in your signature is a 'Boss-Pro' scoop, which is basically a Boss 429 scoop on steroids. If you want the Boss-Pro scoop, you can get it at Unlimited Products, www.up22.com, heres a direct link:
http://www.up22.com/mustang67.htm#PR-63
If you want the smaller scoop(still big..) like the one I have, you can get that at Mustangs Unlimited
http://www.mustangsunlimited.com
351wStang
08-08-2004, 08:11 AM
I only found 4 cars, how are you searching?
MrBB
08-08-2004, 03:44 PM
I got a 65 Coupe in need of ground up restoration. It has rust on driver's side upper floor pan.Its got a 200 I6 with a manual trans in it. I also have a 351 Cleveland for sale as well. Asking $750 for everything.
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