350 or 454?

I am restoring my dads 66 malibu. He is the original owner of it, bought it in 1966 when he was about my age (17). It had a 283 in it, which is now sitting in a corner. I wont be statisfied with the 283 though. I am thinking about getting a 350 or 454 crate motor. I realize that i need to upgrade the rear and tranny ect. Which motor would be a better choice? I basically want it for the street and race it on the ocasional weekend. I want to know which is the better motor, which would be more fun, faster,potential for more hp, and durable, not which is easier or cheaper to install, OR GETS BETTER GAS MILEAGE. Everybody seems to give me those answers. Both motors have about 430 hp. I would like to do some mods to it eventually, but i dunno if messing with a crate engine that is set up to run efficiently woudl be wise? Would the 350 rev alot faster and higher than the 454? Im thinking that if the motors have the same hp that the 350 would be faster cause of its shorter stroke, it should rev faster, shift faster, go faster??? Im worried that the 454 might be a little dogish in reving like....i dunno how to explain it lol, im not saying that its a slow motor or anything lol.

454- Bore:4.25 Stroke:4.00
350- Bore:4.00 Stroke:3.48
I'm pritty sure those numbers are correct, if i remeber right.

Im also thinking 12 bolt rear, m-22. Any suggestions on that also.

If anyone could help me answer any of my numerous questions it would be apreciated.

Well seeing as the 283 is sitting on the side already I guess trying to talk you into putting it back in the car is out of the question? If you absolutly have to put another engine in the car I would at least stick with a small block. You wont have to do any mods and the car will still handle the same. With a big block addition there are a few things that you will have to change. As far as power I'm a big block guy myself. If gas mileage is even an issue for you then forget about the big block. But either way putting out 400+ HP is going to take some gas.
Cherry out your dads old Malibu and drop the original 283 back in it. He will/would've appreciate it. :) Too many non original cars out there nowadays and if your Malibu is mostly stock still then the car itself is already very rare and will be worth a lot more in the long run. Plus a rebuilt 283 with a nice mild cam is still fun and much better gas mileage than the other engines you are thinking about.. Oh and no side pipes..

ok ok no side pipes! lol My dad started to fix the car in like 79ish? and he took the 283 out and was going to rebuild it and all. But he is always very busy and never got around to it. And now im hooked on cars, so i want to get it running more than anything. I dont think i will ever be satisfied with the 195 hp comming from the 283, well not yet anyway. My plan is to get the motor and other stuff, and just keep the 10 bolt, 283 and saginaw in storage, and then when im little tired of not being able to pull out without the tires spinning :grinyes: ill put the 283 back into it. Gas isnt really a problem, i have another car to drive for gas mileage. I already have replacement parts for the trunk, rear inner and outter fender wells, and patch pannels for the front and rear rusty spots. Its not rusted up that bad at all, it has been kept in the garage since 79 when he took it off the road, and never really on salty roads b4 that, after i put these pieces on it it will be rust free except for a couple spots in the floor boards that i will fix later. Im going to polish rust off the frame, tnx again :)

The 454 will rev slower than the 350 but will make more torque at a lower rpm. If you have the option big-block is the way to go without a doubt. Your 430hp 350 will have to sacrifice that low end torque to make the higher rpm horsepwer. Turning a higher rpm is harder on your engine as a whole.

Why build a 350 that needs 6500 rpm to make the same 430hp that the 454 can make at 5500 rpm?

And it'll cost you more money to make that horsepower in a small block than a big block due to needing better quality internals.

You'll be much happier with the 454 for sure!

Ignore the post above.

454 for a Drag car.

350 for a Street car.

We have a camero around here that runs on pump gas with 700hp and guess whats under the hood? A 350.

Yes the 454 has more power, stock... but a bigger engine is not always better.

I completely disagree with you. But as far as bigger is better it depends on who your asking. If you are having money problems and cannot afford the cost of BB Parts and the gas it consumes, then by all means get a small block.You cannot substitue anything for cubic inches! The biggest, toughest built Big Block will always be faster and beat the biggest, toughest built small block. (Given that they are ran in relatively the same set up). PERIOD. I agree if you're going all out trailer queen race car then hands down big block but still... You've got a mouse vs. Rat.. The rat takes it. It's just bigger and stronger. When your talking a crazy built small block, you're talking about a ton of money. But to get a big block to run just as fast as that small block it will be cheaper. It all boils down to opinions but speaking from experience. At car shows the big block draws the attention. 350 small blocks are about as common as those Ford 289's (just nothing special about them).. They just don't do it for me.

I'm not sure what 96civ's problem is. I didn't say that a small block couldnt make horsepower. I said that a big block will out power a small block with the same basic setup. And it will, any time, any day, any where, PERIOD!

Some of you may be familiar with the phrase "there's no replacement for displacement". Well, that rings pretty true. If you want to go fast big block is the way to go. Anyone that knows cars will tell you that!

Moding a 350 is a lot cheaper and thats not just my opinion here... its a fact. I'm simply saying, if you are going to go with a street application then you should go with the 350. If your setting up your car to drag, then go with the 454 because obviously it can get more horsepower at its full moded capacity. But this guy is probably not going for a 1000hp street machine, right? Nor does he have thousands to waste on the 454's more expensive components.

I honestly cannot see why you are so biased against the 350 when you clearly do not give an argument at all.

"If you want to go fast big block is the way to go."

Sorry, thats not the way the cookie crumbles... :loser:

What more argument do you need? A 454 will make more horsepower and torque than a 350 will! That is the whole point!
I'm not sure who you think you are talking to but I'm sure I have 10 times the experience with these engines that you do. I worked in a speed shop for years, was on a pit crew for a rail dragster, my family has a restoration shop and I've probably built 50 chevy big and small block engines myself. How about telling us where you expertise comes from?

The man asked a question and I answered it.

By the way nice touch with the loser smiley--shows your age!

Wow, such big words for a young 17 yr old with absolutly no Street time. You are entitled to your own opinion and that's good. I don't understand your hate towards the guys with daily driven big blocks I'm sure that if you wanted to you could drop a BB in your FOUR door chevelle. I am only saying (speaking from experience) with 11 more driving years than you and building race engines for a hot rod shop from 16 to 18yrs old that once you own a small block you tend to ponder what it would be like to have that big block. I have 3 cars all with Big Blocks, All are drivable and not set up for full drag. Only one runs off Race Gas and i'm sure there are faster cars on the street however a well built 350 will still have a struggle against them. We all speak from experience and personal Opinions so please, Try not to take it so personally.

I am not prejudice against big blocks at all, but all you seem to be missing the point. Yes a big block has more power.. stock. Thanks for stating the obvious.

I don't know about you, but being 17, (I cant really speak for Treill at the moment because I don't know his financial status), I don't have the money to dish out for a big block for my 'Daily Driven Chevelle'...

DUHYEE :silly:

350- Cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to MOD.

454- More power.




..And please stop with the whole 'more power is always better' gig, because its not. If this is how older more 'experienced' people act, then I am really disapointed. Sounds like a few people need to go back to legos and playdoh..

Sigh* We are merely giving our opinions... Again.. Please stop taking it so personally 96Civ

Sigh* We are merely giving our opinions... Again.. Please stop taking it so personally 96Civ

Its like you want an argument, but when you get a heated discussion, you get all defensive.. oh well.

Go look at your posts. You give all the credit to the 454 and don't even talk about the 350 except to downgrade it and constantly remind yourself how weak it is. Giving Treill6 good advice would be telling him the good things about each engine. I was merelly making up for what you lacked conserning this discussion.

And Treill6, I hope you do more research before you make your decission. I hope your car turns out great btw. :bigthumb:

I refuse to try and argue a point with anyone that uses the phrase DUHYEE.

I'm going outside to insult some more poor small block motors now... :rofl:

*heavy sigh* I don't know how to respond anymore... nore am I looking for an argument, especially one with a 17yr old boy. I have already gone off the offensive and on the neutral but you are testing my patience. You are right 96Civ. There are pro's and cons to both engines and I'm sure he knows the (obvious) difference between the two. I believe he merely wanted an experienced opinion. Like I said before. I have had both and prefer the big block that is all. BTW.. I don't know if you have been paying attention to the earlier posts but I even recommended he use the original 283 small block and or just stick with a replacment small block. I never even recommended the big block.. So please... just relax.

Holy crap a lot has happened since I've been gone. First things first....96Civ...if your name stands for 96 civic...you don't belong in this conversation :disappoin The "best motor" is simply all your personal preferance. I'm currently thinking of building 327 that revs somewhere around 8 grand with 400'ish hp. 400 hp is plenty for the street "where i live anyway" If i go too much higher we are going to be having this conversation again when i build a new car "this one will end up in a tree". Nah, im not gonna do somethign that stupid lol. I have been researching all motors...everybody has their own oppinion.....one guy says get a fast reving small block, the other says get the big block. I THINK that if you had a 283 and a 572, both with 400 hp...i think the 283 would eat the 572 cause of its short stroke...in my mind it will rev faster, shift faster, go faster. :2cents: I don't really want to drive the chevelle everyday, but most of the time...Gas money isnt an issue..its going to be a V8...its going to be sucking gas, PERIOD. I think Indetrucks is proboly right....ill be better off getting the big block...cause im always going to be wishing i got one proboly, i still like the idea of 8000 rpms roaring out from the 327 tho :grinno:

96Civ...if your name stands for 96 civic...you don't belong in this conversation :disappoin

:spit:

Funniest thing I have heard all week!!!! :lol2:

This is funny because I'm in the middle of buying either an R1 (Yamaha) or a 998 Ducati Super Bike.
Everything is telling me R1.. Cheaper, less maintenance, and in some cases (opinions vary) outporforms. However on the other hand a Ducati is a Ducati... When you see one you say "wow.. that's a nice bike". Some one once told me... If you buy that R1 you'll be happy untill a Ducati goes by or pulls up next to you. Then you're going to wonder what if. But if you own a Ducati and an R1 pulls up or goes by you're gonna think, "Oh another R1, I own a Ducati". Point of the story.. Ducati's are less common and R1's are a dime a dozen.. Everyone wants a Ducati/big block but not everyone can afford them. So they settle for something that is probably just as good but deep down you really wanted the other... So yes.. I will be picking up a Ducati. Treill6 I'm sure whatever you do will be great and I hope you all the best. If you need anymore opinions don't be affraid to post, we're here for ya.

Well what is the meaning of 96Civ?

What do you guys think about the 327 idea?

Well what is the meaning of 96Civ?

What do you guys think about the 327 idea?

Its for Civic, but if you looked in my profile, you would have realized I don't even own a civic! It was funny to me that you based my experience on muscle purely on my name. I bet if my name was 68Chevy, you wouldn't have made that comment..

But hey, this is where ends meet...

I think the 327 engine is a fun engine for racing. But Treill, before you decide what engine you want, try and find the estimated horsepower you want for your car. While the 454 does rev slower, but it can tear it up with 1400 horsepower all modded out. But if your going for something like 600 or less, I highly recomment a small block or a 327. But its your choice, so happy choosing. :smokin:

umm.. don't agree here with the Civ Dogg...
600 hp out of a small block is gonna cost you a friggin pant load of money... However, 600hp out of a big block will end up being cheaper.....dont get me wrong. I'm sure Civic has some super fast rides that probably produce 800hp from the straight six he just rebuilt but I used to build engines for a living...
Now back on topic, I think the 327 will be fine, if you can crank out 350 to 400hp you will be happy. Burn outs all day long and faster than most cars that pull up next to you. This can also be done from a small block without spending a ton of money. Now Civic...... Please don't get your panties all in a bunch, you seem, to get mad at anyone that dissagree's with you. I know you're in the range of 16-18 yrs old and probably know a ton about this stuff. (Maybe where you're from you have been driving since 14?) I don't know.. But it seems that wherever I post something you get immature on me....... Remember.... Opinions will vary and when you dissagree... you don't need to attack and get all mean. Like telling the other person to "take the stick outa there ass before it punctures their brain".... Not nice... hehe

Yes if your name was 68chevy I would be more comfortable taking advice from you. I generally dont find myself hanging around kids who like to "pimp out" civics and other imports, and I dont think im about to start taking advice from them lol. I'm not a big fan of four cyls and people who think that they are the fastest things around. The fact that you have a 68 chevelle makes it a little better. Anyway...I proboly only need (haha want lol) 500 hp at most. 1400 hp for the street is insane...i will NEVER use it all unless i move to like Kansas lol. I just want atleast 400 hp, and i think if id get that outa a motor with a short stroke it would haul pritty good.

Civic im interested in what kinda stuff is done to your 700? (its not on this page) horse 350?

Oh yea, forgot about this. My name does stand for something. A treill or trill is something that you do on a guitar, but i wouldnt expect you to know that. I'm not a prick, i just enjoy kidding with people, and hate imports. I think your the one who needs to grow up a little bit. Like Indetrucks said...your thong starts ridding a little closer to your ass everytime somebody says something that you dont like.

Well im done being a "prick"

Well Indetrucks... I tend to make friends with all of my enemies eventually so who knows, I may like you. ;) I do not own a 700hp street machine, I do not know where you got that from, buuut I know the guy that does. I have ridden in this car and you wouldn't think this camero has a 350 small block under the hood. He often goes on the freeway to play and/or Sears Point infinion raceway.

I like all kind of cars. I want to get a civic and turn it into a performance car. I estimate it will be a 2 year project and believe me... rice will be for dinner, not on my car. Any wing I ever get will actually function on my vehicle, any fart can I get on my car will be the same size as my exhaust system AND any sticker on my car will be from actual companies that provide me with a compensation.

But I know where the criticizm about the imports comes from. They lack torque. I want to build a 500hp civic with atleast as much torque and I have been doing research on this project for some time now so no one can really tell me its not going to happen. :)

Me and my best friend are almost done restoring his 70 chevelle. We have worked on it for 8 months now doing all the body work and now we only have a few more weeks to put it back together, block sand it and paint it.

So have you gone to a tech school or what? If so, what school did you go to because I would like to get into mechanics soon. I am 17 and I just graduated highschool so I'm ready to get my hands dirty. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/naughty.gif

As for Treill6, I really, really dont care what your name means. The point is it gets to you and I really don't care how you deal with it. If you would like to try to insult me, please feel free to email me at [email protected] at any time...

Have a good day...

Hi Civ, Yes I did go to a Tech College right out of high school. After graduating in 95 I attended Wyoming Techical institue in Laramie Wyoming. I acquired my AA Degree there, took the street rod customizing class and the Automotive theory classes. I highly recommend it but it doesn't come cheap. I was very fortunate at the time to have my dad pay for it and I am in great debt to him for that. Before I even attended the schooling however I did work at a hot rod shop through my senior year. Although I do not do what I went to school for at this present time, I did work for Toyota right after the schooling for 7 years and it helped me to get to where I am now. I have nothing against imports as long as they aren't those "Pep Boy'd out bolt on everything you can find cars." Speed is speed and it all takes talent. Hell I used ot own a TT 94 Supra.. So far the biggest problem I've found about building a car like a civic to produce in the 500hp is cost.. It can get REAL expensive to build an import. But when that import smokes American muscle at the track.. that is something to see... When it comes down to it we are all in the same boat.. $$$$$ and I have seen many imports put American Muscle to shame. Good luck with youe Civic.

Civ:"I do not own a 700hp street machine, I do not know where you got that from, buuut I know the guy that does." I didnt know exactly, i just remembered you saying somethign about a 700 horse camaro with a 350...thats where that came from.

Civ:"As for Treill6, I really, really dont care what your name means." I was just answering to this...."Thats interesting, because your name stands for nothing and you appear to be a very good prick."

Finnally i would like to say that im done bickering over pointless stuff, lets try to get along :P

What the nuts kinda front end and tranny do you have to get for your civic so it doesnt make baby gears when you bomb the clutch?

Ind:"I have seen many imports put American Muscle to shame." I hate to hear that lol. But if you have a fully moded muscle car and a fully modded import...at the max horsepower they can have, my money is on the muscle car.

I have never said I owned a 700hp Camero... I know I didnt say that because I would never ever say that. I would have to be drunk-off-my-ass to even say something even remotely like that.

"doesnt make baby gears when you bomb the clutch" ????

Another genius quote that made utterly no sense at all!

Its not all about horsepower at all... The world is not 2 dementional if you hadn't noticed already. In this world I like to call reality, we have curved slants called "TURNS".

And I'm not sure if I even want to be friends with you... :nono: :thumbsdow

You're right treill, a fully modded muscle will out run an import. Don't get me wrong.. at the track it's rare to see the import beat the muscle but I was just mentioning that I have seen it and it looks funny to see a crx running down the track ahead of a old american muscle car. But then again they towed that crx to the track and the muscle car drove there :)

You're right treill, a fully modded muscle will out run an import. Don't get me wrong.. at the track it's rare to see the import beat the muscle but I was just mentioning that I have seen it and it looks funny to see a crx running down the track ahead of a lod american muscle car. But then again they towed that crx to the track and the muscle car drove there :)

Gas at the track is expensive!!! I dont blame em...

This isnt a question that anybody here can answer, we can offer advice. The 454 will have more potential for higher hp and will be faster. The 350 will get better gas mileage and probably give you less problems down the line because parts are more readily available. If you were to put in the 454 there would be a lot more work and money involved.

If you are considering a new rear end you might want to consider the Ford 8.5 inch rear end, it is lighter and can hold almost as much as the gm 9 inch.

"If you are considering a new rear end you might want to consider the Ford 8.5 inch rear end, it is lighter and can hold almost as much as the gm 9 inch."

hmmmmm...a ford 8.5 inch and a gm 9 inch rear axle? Well Dank4569, (I hope thats talking about weed cause that would be sooooooo funny...:sigh:...) how long have you been working around axles...or even cars in general? Hopefully you just made a mistake when you typed that. How many times have you ever seen a gm 9 inch rear axle? GM never made a 9 inch rear axle. There were the 7.25, 7.5, and 7.625s that were used in the smaller s-10/15 trucks. They also had the 8.5 inch 10 bolts and the 8.875 inch 12 bolt which were in some cars and 1/2 ton trucks. Then they used 9.5 inch semi floating 14 bolt and the 10.5 inch full floating 14 bolt in their 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, as well as the 9.75 inch dana 60 in the front of their 1 ton trucks. Now FORD made a 9 inch rear axle in their cars and trucks....but thats just my $0.02.

Treill's original question asked: "I want to know which would be more fun, faster, potential for more hp, and durable, not which is easier or cheaper to install, OR GETS BETTER GAS MILEAGE."
SBC & BBC are both Chevrolets, and so are better than anything else on the planet. Beyond that, there is no doubt that the BBC is more fun to drive, listen to, look at, and race. Faster? BBC. (All things equal). Potential for more power? BBC. Durable? Stock, both are solid. Moderate HP, both solid. Mildly radical or beyond, BBC is more durable, for a given $$ investment. (500HP at 5500 RPM is much easier on parts than 500HP @ 7500 RPM is). I agree with keeping and restoring the original drivetrain for a later re-install, but if you want the things you asked about, the BBC cannot be beat. My weekend warrior is a 71 Monte Carlo SS454 that has a mild 408-inch, 402 BBC, (steel oval-port heads, hydraulic .578 Lift/246 deg cam, 9.5:1 TRW's), full interior, weighs 3750# without driver, gets shifted at 5400, & runs 12.30's @ 108MPH on pump gas at 1300 ft altitude. It's been drag raced and run hard on the street for 8 years now, without a solitary whimper from that hard-working rat motor. Stock cast crank, (Undersize .20/.30!), stock rods & bolts, stock heads. And NOTHING sounds better than 2 inch primary header tubes that get filled-up with hot n' nasty gases from those big, canted and splayed valves, on a BBC!!! Have fun, they can all be made to run, but nothing sounds or runs as consistently good as a big-block Chevy, which can be built almost as cheap as a small-block!
Thanks for allowing me to share my passion! Big-Block Chevy's Rock!
-Jim.

Treill's original question asked: "I want to know which would be more fun, faster, potential for more hp, and durable, not which is easier or cheaper to install, OR GETS BETTER GAS MILEAGE."
SBC & BBC are both Chevrolets, and so are better than anything else on the planet. Beyond that, there is no doubt that the BBC is more fun to drive, listen to, look at, and race. Faster? BBC. (All things equal). Potential for more power? BBC. Durable? Stock, both are solid. Moderate HP, both solid. Mildly radical or beyond, BBC is more durable, for a given $$ investment. (500HP at 5500 RPM is much easier on parts than 500HP @ 7500 RPM is). I agree with keeping and restoring the original drivetrain for a later re-install, but if you want the things you asked about, the BBC cannot be beat. My weekend warrior is a 71 Monte Carlo SS454 that has a mild 408-inch, 402 BBC, (steel oval-port heads, hydraulic .578 Lift/246 deg cam, 9.5:1 TRW's), full interior, weighs 3750# without driver, gets shifted at 5400, & runs 12.30's @ 108MPH on pump gas at 1300 ft altitude. It's been drag raced and run hard on the street for 8 years now, without a solitary whimper from that hard-working rat motor. Stock cast crank, (Undersize .20/.30!), stock rods & bolts, stock heads. And NOTHING sounds better than 2 inch primary header tubes that get filled-up with hot n' nasty gases from those big, canted and splayed valves, on a BBC!!! Have fun, they can all be made to run, but nothing sounds or runs as consistently good as a big-block Chevy, which can be built almost as cheap as a small-block!
Thanks for allowing me to share my passion! Big-Block Chevy's Rock!
-Jim.

Very well put Jim.... That's what I tried to say this whole thread. haha

Small block all the way! Its hard to beat a 350 or 400 small block chevy! The 454s arent all that hot for an everyday driver.