Should suicide be legal?

I say yes, it should be. If you have a right to live, shouldn't you have a right to die? What if you lost all your limbs in a accident? What if your wife of 40 years died? What if you had a serious disease? I dont think there should be restrictions on if you can or cannot. Say, only terminal ill people can hve the option, etc. I dont think anyone other then the person should be able to decide the conditions in which they have the right to choose. I have no place to take that choice away from people, and neither does the government. Neither do any of you.

However, I think there should be ways to help show a person why suicide is not a very good option. You may get some 16 year old teen who just broke up with his gilfriend, who would want to end his life. :rolleyes: So i think education on the subject would still be important.

Now for assisted suicide. I think this should be legal as well. However, there should be regulations on who can do this. Just like there are regulations on who can be a doctor. So, i think only people in a healthcare type positon, etc. could do a assisted uicide. Not some cult leader.

The only reason that the law is in place is so that people who attempt suicide and fail their attempt, go to jail where they can be "supervised" and not hurt themselves again. I don't think it should be illegal, but people should be mandated to get help after they attempt it.

As for assisted suicide, I believe that it should be legal as well. Imagine being 80 yrs old and your wife of 60 yrs dies, and you are bedridden and know that the rest of your life(what is left of it) you are going to be stuck in bed, with hardly anyone visiting you, or worse, stuck in a nursing home somewhere. No way, not me. Give me some pills and let me go join my wife. The guy who gives the pills to me will be my savior.

i never knew suicide was a crime....people have different degrees of tolarences and some cannot handle their own problems by merely talking or logically working it out....this of course results in suicide and other forms of self-hurt....i dont think any government can control this situation, its too personal. who are they gonna charge with the crime? the next of kin? the spouse? personally, i dont see why anyone would want to take they're own life...willingly of course. its the most precious thing we own. our very existance. its a wonderful thing when you think about it. so why people want would want to end their misery is kinda hard to understand for me. it may be because i can handle my problems or because i was taught that life sux sometimes and bumps in the road are necessary for anyone to gain valueable experience.......anyway, thats what i think...


deuces

yea, i just thought about the failed suicide attempt....that's illegal isnt it?

Who makes the line between the 16 yr old after a breakup and the 80 yr old suffering blinding pain from a terminal illness? It can get messy if you try to make it official.

I also have 2 other reasons against an official right to suicide. 1st, we all help eachother(ideally) in our society, so one person killing themselves should hurt everyone. After society's investment in a person's upbringing, it would be "nice" for that person to try and pay it back by living their life. 2nd, I think any such approval would only encourage fence-sitters to go for the easy way out. If a person isn't completely sure they want to die, I think its just irresponsable to do anything that might convince them to do so.

Originally posted by Pikachoo
The only reason that the law is in place is so that people who attempt suicide and fail their attempt, go to jail where they can be "supervised" and not hurt themselves again. I don't think it should be illegal, but people should be mandated to get help after they attempt it.



But why do we put them in jail? Because the goverment basically thinks they dont have the right to try and commit suicide, or at least thats what I think.

As far as I know,suicide is not illegal in N.Z., and even if it is,there can be no effective way of punishing a corpse.

As regardes assisted suicide,it can only be truly ethical if all of the immediate familly of the prospective cadaver are reconcilled to the decision. Like it or not ,in electing to kill yourself,you can inflict enormous pain on others,just a surely as if you were to take an axe and hit them. No individual should have the right to inflict that kind of pain simply to relieve their own misery.

On the other hand,there should be an absolute right for a person to specify that they do not want their life to be artificially prolonged.Too many people assume that the medical proffession will automatically accept their wishes in the event that life becomes diminished as a result of illness or injury.Without the full consent of the patient, the doctor who decides to revive an elderly or sick person after a potentially terminal seizure is simply playing God.

Originally posted by V.S.
Who makes the line between the 16 yr old after a breakup and the 80 yr old suffering blinding pain from a terminal illness? It can get messy if you try to make it official.



But see, there shouldnt be a line. There should be education involved in why suicide is really not a viable option. No matter if you are 80, or 16 years old.


Originally posted by V.S.

I also have 2 other reasons against an official right to suicide. 1st, we all help eachother(ideally) in our society, so one person killing themselves should hurt everyone. After society's investment in a person's upbringing, it would be "nice" for that person to try and pay it back by living their life. 2nd, I think any such approval would only encourage fence-sitters to go for the easy way out. If a person isn't completely sure they want to die, I think its just irresponsable to do anything that might convince them to do so.


true that suicide can affect more then the person, I dont feel I have any obligation to 'repay' anyone by living my life. Lets say I have a horrible accident, where I am a burden to my family. I have to have someone sit and change my shitty diaper. How could that be considered nice repayment to my family? Im not saying your idea is bad, just o you know. :D I just dont agree on the repayment part. :)

As for the fence sitters taking the easy way out? i feel thats darwinism at its best. If they want to end their life just because they are broke, and too lazy to find work. Nobody loves them, whatever. Let them go. But again, education woul play a good part in letting them know there are other ways to deal with the hardships of life.

It's so funny to see a thread on this today, I JUST HAD THIS CONVO WITH A BUNCH OF PEOPLE LAST WEEK. WE JUST BURIED A FRIEND ON JAN 9TH WHO COMMITTED SUICIDE. hE HAD BEEN ARRESTED FOR ROBBING HOUSES, TO SUPPORT HIS HEROIN HABBIT. HE WAS IN JAIL FOR 35 MINUTES WHEN THEY FOUND A SHEET TIED AROUND HIS NECK WHICH HAD RIPPED AWAY FROM WHEREVER HE HUNG HIMSELF (OFF THE CELL DOOR IS WHAT WE THINK) HOWEVER THE POINT OF THIS STORY IS I THINK IT SHOULD BE LEGAL, HIS POINT OF VIEW IN HIS LETTER WAS THAT HIS PARENTS HAD ALREADY REMORTGAGED TO GET HIM OUT OF TROUBLE ONCE, HE DID NOT WANT HIS FAMILY TO HAVE TO SACRIFICE FOR HIM AGAIN, HE ALSO DID NOT WANT TO DRAG HIS LITTLE BROTHER DOWN WITH HIM, HE KNEW IF HE KEPT USING SO WOULD HIS BRO, SO IN THE LONGRUN HE JUST WANTED TO STOP HIS OWN PAIN AND NOT CAUSE ANYMORE TO HIS FAMILY...WHATS WRONG WITH THIS? SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE SO FAR GONE AND DEPRESSED THAY SEE NO OTHER WAY.

Originally posted by taranaki
No individual should have the right to inflict that kind of pain simply to relieve their own misery.




Thats a good point, but why should I live a miserable life to me, just to please, and keep others happy? My life is not about what others think, or feel. It is my own. But yes, I know first hand that suicide can bring great pain to those close to the person who did the deed.

Originally posted by kbslacker



true that suicide can affect more then the person, I dont feel I have any obligation to 'repay' anyone by living my life. Lets say I have a horrible accident, where I am a burden to my family. I have to have someone sit and change my shitty diaper. How could that be considered nice repayment to my family? Im not saying your idea is bad, just o you know. :D I just dont agree on the repayment part. :)



Well, I'm just saying that if a "normal" person just decides to kill themselves, that is hurting society, and as such society probably shouldn't, for its own sake, approve. There are ofcourse exceptions where suicide may help everyone, but like I said before, making a "line" where the law ends is hard.


As for the fence sitters taking the easy way out? i feel thats darwinism at its best. If they want to end their life just because they are broke, and too lazy to find work. Nobody loves them, whatever. Let them go. But again, education woul play a good part in letting them know there are other ways to deal with the hardships of life.

People do go through depression without being worthless bags of organic waste their entire lives you know.

Originally posted by taranaki
As far as I know,suicide is not illegal in N.Z., and even if it is,there can be no effective way of punishing a corpse.

Actually, the Crimes Act specifically requires and empowers any person to do what is needful to prevent a suicide, or actions that would amount to suicide. I'm very bothered by the idea though, that in the US, people go to jail if they attempt suicide - I hope that';s not actually correct. Jail is no safe place; people suicide regularly in jail.

There are many many reasons for suicide, and there is no one solution, nor way to approach the problem (for example, someone in extreme pain from cancer, as opposed to someone after a relationship break-up. Although it also pays to remember that people who have experienced both the pain of cancer and that of major depression, find the depression to be worse). Some suicides absolutely should be prevented if at all possible. People suffering psychosis for example, have a very high rate of suicide, but very often this is based on the nature of their psychotic symptoms, and after they receive effective treatment, they no longer wish to be dead. Similarly in depression, though there are usually other factors influencing those that actually go as far as making an attempt.

Suicide has been very closely linked to social trends: during wars, the suicide rate drops, during economic depressions, it goes up. Largely, suicide is a social problem, with a vast number of determinants. Consequently it is very difficult to predict or prevent.

btw: with all the hoop-la about youth suicide, I wonder if anyone knows that the group in society with the highest rate of suicide (though of course not the highest absolute numbers) is men over 85. Younger men (15-25 odd) come way down the list as far as the actual rate of suicide goes.

We've had a suicide thread on here from time to time and I wont rehash everything I've said before but...

I understand that if someone is in great physical pain or beyond help and if they want to check out its fine by me. Anyone who does because they just feel overwhelmed while they still have family depending on them (children especially) deserve a nice hot room in hell.

The act shouldn't be considered illegal, but anyone who lives through the effort will get zero sympathy from me.

Originally posted by V.S.


People do go through depression without being worthless bags of organic waste their entire lives you know.

Depression is treatable.

Originally posted by kbslacker
I say yes, it should be. If you have a right to live, shouldn't you have a right to die? What if you lost all your limbs in a accident? What if your wife of 40 years died? What if you had a serious disease? I dont think there should be restrictions on if you can or cannot. Say, only terminal ill people can hve the option, etc. I dont think anyone other then the person should be able to decide the conditions in which they have the right to choose. I have no place to take that choice away from people, and neither does the government. Neither do any of you.

However, I think there should be ways to help show a person why suicide is not a very good option. You may get some 16 year old teen who just broke up with his gilfriend, who would want to end his life. :rolleyes: So i think education on the subject would still be important.

Now for assisted suicide. I think this should be legal as well. However, there should be regulations on who can do this. Just like there are regulations on who can be a doctor. So, i think only people in a healthcare type positon, etc. could do a assisted uicide. Not some cult leader. Yes I think it should 100% be legal (I am very much a supporter of youthanasia in contrast to living the end of your life constantly in and out of hospitals, or in a nursing home). True, killing yourself may inflict great pain and suffering upon those who love and care about you, but IMO it is your life, and your priorities should be your wishes, which need not reflect theirs.

Not much to add besides that, Kris; you covered the bases nicely above.

Originally posted by JD@af
Yes I think it should 100% be legal (I am very much a supporter of youthanasia in contrast to living the end of your life constantly in and out of hospitals, or in a nursing home). True, killing yourself may inflict great pain and suffering upon those who love and care about you, but IMO it is your life, and your priorities should be your wishes, which need not reflect theirs.

Not much to add besides that, Kris; you covered the bases nicely above.

I had the misfortune to be involved in exactly this scenario a couple of years ago.....3 years Feb 16th ,to be precise.My good buddy hung himself in our workplace one night because he was having marriage problems.It came as a total shock to us all,as he never let on how badly he felt.His business was doing really well,he was a prominent local charity worker and he had an absolutely unshakeable belief in God and his church.......or so we thought.He left behind 3 lovely children aged 6-10, a sweet lady of a wife and,among others 6 staff members, including myself.

I can't understand to this day how he believed that things were so bad,but I do know that there were several hundred people at his funeral all in varying degrees of shock and disbelief.His family will carry the burden of his death for a very long time,and be changed for ever.His close friends from the business are now scattered,the business having closed.His church buddies,of whom I was one have all suffered a blow to their beliefs.

You may feel that you have a right to end your own life when it suits you,but I feel that you have a responsibility not to.

Originally posted by taranaki

You may feel that you have a right to end your own life when it suits you,but I feel that you have a responsibility not to.



*puts on flame retardant suit, and makes quick reminder that this is the philosophy forum*
this is the philosophy forum

So you think we should continue living a life we don't want to lead and suffer so that others may be happy? A life that is nothing more than slavery, sacrifcing our own feelings and desiress so that other people who we possibly no longer care about can live in some false belief that we are also happy and that everything is just peachy?


death is an envetiable part of life, it can occur for an almost infinite number of reasons, but has one always has one common part. Its final.
However if someone truely believe they are suffering so much that they can no longer live then as far as im concerned that should be allowed to die. They are no longer serving a purpose and it could be argued thats its in fact an act of cruelty to force them to live.
Iv had 3 grandparents all die very slow and drawn out painfull deaths from a variety of diseases, and I know all 3 wanted to be able to pass away peacefully and in a dignified manner free from excess suffering. Instead all 3 were forced to live longer than nessacry, and suffer the loss of dignitynad personal pain assicated with wasteing away in a totaly helpless condition in a hospital bed.

I also know several people who although young and healthy suffer such severe mental disorders and bouts of depression thier lives are a total nightmare. Pumping them full of drugs does not "cure" them, but turns them into mindless emotionless zombies.
Why should they be made to live a life that to them is pure hell just because we think its the way it should be. We are not in thier shoes, and we are not living thier lives. If they truely feel that thier life is not worth living then we should repsect that desicion and leave them to it.

this thread has split into two parallel but separate issues.on the subject of euthanasia,I have already posted my thoughts,and they seem to be fairly close to your argument,Moppie.

As to suicide,yes I hold to my original position.Nobody has a life so bad that they cannot improve it by actively managing it.To simply quit it rather than address your own problems is selfish and conceited.Short term depression is one of the most common forms of mental disorder,and is one of the easiest to treat.The hardest part is admitting to yourself that you have a problem,and actively doing something to resolve it.
Splattering yourself on the pavement under a tall building,or stringing yourself up when nobody is about doesn't actually solve anything.I couldn't even guarrantee that it stops your negative emotions,as I have yet to discover the truth of what may lie after death.


Somewhere between your two examples lies a body of people who carry an additional responsibility.When I promised myself to my wife,I actually promised -"for richer,for poorer,for better,for worse."I
consider myself lucky to have been able to stay true to that promise(as best a mere mortal can)for the last 16 years.In that time I have also committed intentionally to raising two children.This may sound a little old-fashioned,but for me,that means doing my best to be there for them until they are mature enough to manage their own lives.There is no date fixed on the calendar that this will happen,but as each day goes by,my children grow more independant,and my responsibilities will change as they mature,diminishing to a point where they can reasonably be expected to fend for themselves.

Until that happens,and as long as my wife chooses to share her life with me,I consider it their right to expect me to make every effort to keep my end of the bargain.If that means enduring a spell of misery occasionally,then fine-for what I have received over the years from them I feel I owe them the effort.Even if life gets to a point where it is unbearable,I owe it to them to take whatever remedial steps I can in the short term,in the hope that a better solution can be found in the long term.The priviledge of being loved is not something to be discarded lightly.

It should be legal only if youre really disabled, terminally ill, or losing your memory........in these three cases to what extent are you alive? (and by disabled, i mean seriously seriously disabled, i could go into the graphic details of some cases, but i just ate breakfast).

In most other cases, theres nothing the mind can't conquer....

of course this is all just my opinion

i tried it once and i'll try it again

Originally posted by kbslacker


Depression is treatable.


Did you realise that when you said

As for the fence sitters taking the easy way out? i feel thats darwinism at its best. If they want to end their life just because they are broke, and too lazy to find work. Nobody loves them, whatever. Let them go. But again, education woul play a good part in letting them know there are other ways to deal with the hardships of life.

?

Originally posted by Moppie
...death is an envetiable part of life...
Hmmm. Although I think you probably meant 'inevitable', it did come out sounding awfully close to 'enviable'...

Everything going OK Moppie? We're your friends, you know you can talk to us. Suicide is not the answer!

;)


----
I think there is a distinction to be made about suicides that has been missed here: People choose to commit suicide either through
1) a rational decision making process
2) sudden impulse
3) mental illness

Now I'm not saying that the line between them is always clear, but these are three different modes that need to be treated differently. In my personal opinion:
1) Say I'm sorry and good luck.
2) Prevent it.
3) Attempt to cure, but only if the cure is better than the disease.

And another thing, just from a standpoint of logic - it's stupid for suicide to be illegal - in fact, it's the only unpunishable crime.
:cool:

Originally posted by fritz_269
I think there is a distinction to be made about suicides that has been missed here: People choose to commit suicide either through
1) a rational decision making process
2) sudden impulse
3) mental illness

Now I'm not saying that the line between them is always clear, but these are three different modes that need to be treated differently. In my personal opinion:
1) Say I'm sorry and good luck.
2) Prevent it.
3) Attempt to cure, but only if the cure is better than the disease.

And another thing, just from a standpoint of logic - it's stupid for suicide to be illegal - in fact, it's the only unpunishable crime.
:cool: MY GOODNESS you've made some good points above Fritz :eek: Nice going.

I have a little something to add, about the rationalizing of suicide. The Catholic church for most of its history stated that the soul of a person who committed suicide was comdemned to eternal damnation (or something closely related to that). In the last few years, it reversed its position, stating that mental instability was the cause of suicide, and that those who committed the act were not to be held accountable for their actions (anyone who is Catholic, or has a clearer understanding of this exchange than I, feel free to correct me - there may be slight inaccuracies in my post). This, obviously, is a huge reversal in opinion and policy for a large organized body that so strongly opposed suicide for hundreds of years.

While the separation of the Church and State centuries ago in England was a huge change in how the nation was run, contemporary governments usually do not hold religious organizations in even nearly the same regard. That being said, I still find it very significant that the Catholic church reversed its opinion. To me, this is comparable to the plaintiff's position in OJ Simpson's murder trial, when they admitted "okay, many members of the LAPD are racist, but that doesn't mean that they would be incited to plant evidence." Who knows, maybe suicide's legalization, at least in the United States, is more of a possible reality than we think.

Originally posted by fritz_269




----
I think there is a distinction to be made about suicides that has been missed here: People choose to commit suicide either through
1) a rational decision making process
2)
3) mental illness

:cool:

Sounds a bit like "catch22" to me........:)

Originally posted by taranaki


Sounds a bit like "catch22" to me........:)

Not if its 3 differnt reasons why people may commit suicide.
There are many differnt reasons, but I think they all fall into the above 3 general catagories.

Your post above as to why you think its bad falls very neatly into the first catagory, You've found some rational reasons as to why people should not kill themselves. This does not however exclude potentialy rational reasons why people might kill themselves.

Whats happening is the debate is turning from argueing whether suicide is simply good or bad, to suicide can be good or bad depending on the motivation.




FritzPrehaps for some death is an enviable part of life. (I mean who wants to live for ever? :) )
However I did mean to use an "i" and not an "e"

Please bear with me,Moppie its a long time since I read the book,and I am not a scholar of philosophy;)

For my own reference,and for the benefit of those who may not know the origin of the phrase, I have tracked down the original root meaning of the phrase 'catch 22'.

Catch 22" has come to mean a problematic situation for which the only solution is denied by a circumstance inherent in the problem. The original "Catch-22," in Joseph Heller's 1961 novel of the same name, is the catch that prevents a US Air Force pilot in World War II from asking to be grounded on the basis of insanity. The pilot knows that military regulations permit insane pilots to be grounded and not forced to fly further dangerous bombing missions. However, the regulation prevents airmen from escaping bombing missions by pleading insanity by stating that any airman rational enough to WANT to be grounded cannot possibly be insane and therefore is fit to fly. From the novel: a man "would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to: but if he didn't he was sane and had to."


It seems unlikely to me that any sane person could make a rational decision to end his/her own life.Surely any form of suicidal intent could be classified as a mental disorder,since it is contrary to the normal mental instinct of self-preservation...

Originally posted by taranaki
.Surely any form of suicidal intent could be classified as a mental disorder,since it is contrary to the normal mental instinct of self-preservation...

who can realisticly state what is normal?

What one person thinks is a normal behaviour another person may see as an irrational behaviour. It is all a matter of perception:right:


I however do agree that any rational person would not make the final decision to take their own life.

As to the inital question I don't think that suicide should be legal, I believe that euthenasia should be legalised.

Originally posted by taranaki

It seems unlikely to me that any sane person could make a rational decision to end his/her own life.Surely any form of suicidal intent could be classified as a mental disorder,since it is contrary to the normal mental instinct of self-preservation...

Im bearing with you! :)

I see your point, and its a very good a very valid one.
However Im sure I can think of a situation where someone might make what could be deemed to be a rational chioce to take thier own life.

Take the Kamakzi Piolits in WWII, In Japanese culture what they were doing was considered very rational. Jumping from the top of the World Trade center towers as they burned could be deemed to have been a rational choice by those who jumped.

Under a deffinition of rationality in which it is always bad to want to kill yourself then you have a catch 22 situation with Fritz's list. But if you have a differnt concept of what is rational then its quite possible to make a rational decision to end your life.

yup moppie

"reality is merely perception, nothing more, nothing less"

yup moppie

"reality is merely perception, nothing more, nothing less"
-me, but im sure someone else has said it
but until then its alllllllllllllll mine
muahahahahahahaha

WTF?! oooops................

ok sorry about that guys

I'm a spy. I have information on my own country's troop movements. I'm caught by the enemy. If I'm tortured, I may talk, and thousands of my own people will be killed. I have a cyanide capsule in my teeth. I commit suicide with rational and clear intent; no mental illness or impulsive behavior. See "The Value of Life" thread.

Although this is an extreme case, it does show that you cannot rule out "rational decision" a priori. It is not by definition a catch-22 or tied up with impulsiveness or mental illness in any way.

There are circumstances where someone can be very rational (and even moral!) about their own suicide.
:cool:

Originally posted by fritz_269
I'm a spy. I have information on my own country's troop movements. I'm caught by the enemy. If I'm tortured, I may talk, and thousands of my own people will be killed. I have a cyanide capsule in my teeth. I commit suicide with rational and clear intent; no mental illness or impulsive behavior. See "The Value of Life" thread.

Although this is an extreme case, it does show that you cannot rule out "rational decision" a priori. It is not by definition a catch-22 or tied up with impulsiveness or mental illness in any way.

There are circumstances where someone can be very rational (and even moral!) about their own suicide.
:cool:

Fair call,but a very rare practice in real life.This scenario could also be applied to the 7/11 hijackers,I suppose,or at least some of them.I still wonder whether all of the terrorists were actually aware that they were on a suicide mission.....

Originally posted by taranaki
This scenario could also be applied to the 7/11 hijackers,I suppose,or at least some of them.
Could also be said of the people who fought back on United flight #93.
:(

Originally posted by fritz_269

Could also be said of the people who fought back on United flight #93.
:(

Don't think so.No disrespect to them,but their intended plan was probably to regain full control of the aircraft,thereby saving their own lives,not simply to force it down in the wrong location.Either way,it takes a lot of balls to take on a hijack team.

Originally posted by taranaki
Don't think so.No disrespect to them,but their intended plan was probably to regain full control of the aircraft,thereby saving their own lives,not simply to force it down in the wrong location.Either way,it takes a lot of balls to take on a hijack team.
Possible. But hard to say. I'm sure they had a pretty good idea what would probably happen. Probably not the best example of my point.

I was just trying to make it clear that there are at least some circumstances where one can make a rational decision to commit suicide.

:cool:

it should stay as a crime becuase you have the right to live but not the right to kill yourself. It's killing someone and that yourself and then again killing or murder, if you will, is a crime. All of this with the right to live right to die thing is morals and views and the morals and views of one person should not jeprodize the lives of other people(which suicide can), also suicide is selfish. You're only thinking about yourself when committing or thinking about committing the act and that act hurts your friends, family and the economic system(especially if you have money and no one after you spends it).

Originally posted by AEstud
...also suicide is selfish. You're only thinking about yourself when committing or thinking about committing the act and that act hurts your friends, family and the economic system(especially if you have money and no one after you spends it).
Don't you dare try to take away my right to be selfish!

It's one of the founding principles of this country! Do you remember something about "pursuit of happiness"?

PS> If you have money - someone will spend it. Most probably the state. Money is like energy, it doesn't just disappear.
:cool:

Well I am agreeable on attempted suiciders being put away for a while so they can get a grip on life and then come back and face thier demons.

Euthenasia on the other hand is a touchy subject people should not be feeling pain these days there are drugs that can stop you from doing that.

However if you are a lonely 85 year old and your wife of 65 years has died and you have no kids an the life insurance fell through-then I can only agree with thier intentions