Progress!!!

This story put a smile on my face when I heard it. In Toronto, the Jewish community donated 10 000$ to the Muslim community to help a sick Afghan child pay for the heart surgery needed to keep him alive.
Now if this isnt progress, then I dont know what is

I don't think thats progress... I think thats Canada. As long as they aren't donating to the French, they think they'll be just fine.

If you have nothing decent to say, STFU!

It's a start...but still so far to go....

i bet if we read the bible a little better, we could understand the problems of jews and muslims.

i bet if we read the bible a little better, we could understand the problems of jews and muslims.
How?

There are several verses that talk about them being enemies and continuing to be so for many many years. But this isn't the right forum to get into that.

How?
I'm sure his reply will be something along the lines of that niether group is christian. :)

I think it would be more in the direction of the Isrealies and Arabs are and will always be sworn enemies. It says so in the Old Testament. Long before there were Israelis and Arabs. Sorry I wasn't going to get into a religious discussion on this part of the forum so I'll shut up now about it.

I think it would be more in the direction of the Isrealies and Arabs are and will always be sworn enemies. It says so in the Old Testament. Long before there were Israelis and Arabs. Sorry I wasn't going to get into a religious discussion on this part of the forum so I'll shut up now about it.
Awww....you should know all I ever show up for is religious arguments.


I have always though that most Jews and Moslems are able to co exist happily, on a personal level. For decades, Palestinians have been well integrated in to the labour pool in Israel (the quality of the jobs notstanding. ) It is the influence of the governments and special interest groups (including some facets of organised religion) that poisons the minds and attitudes of the individual.

I have always though that most Jews and Moslems are able to co exist happily, on a personal level. For decades, Palestinians have been well integrated in to the labour pool in Israel (the quality of the jobs notstanding. ) It is the influence of the governments and special interest groups (including some facets of organised religion) that poisons the minds and attitudes of the individual.

I personally thought that if the Israeli gov't would just pull their troops back to their actual border, and stop occupying land they stole in `67, there'd be peace. Let the lunatic "GOD GAVE US ALL OF THIS LAND" settlers deal with lunatic Muslims by themselves, without putting the Israeli Army and tons of Israeli money into said lunatic settlers, and 99% of the terrorists would disappear. Instead of the current Israeli policy -- "let's fund these fanatics to the utmost and send Israeli troops to go protect them."

Well, the Palestinians would be blowing up insane Jewish religious fanatics in Palestine, and not people in Tel Aviv, anyway.

I personally thought that if the Israeli gov't would just pull their troops back to their actual border, and stop occupying land they stole in `67, there'd be peace.. You say stole as if they just went in and invaded that land and took it. There was a lot that led up to the six day war and Israel came out with a huge victory even though they were hopelessly out numbered on all sides from all the surrounding nations military hostile build ups on their borders. They were going to invade and try to wipe them out but it didn't work like they had planned. Even then Israel was set to give the land back they conquered in a peace settlement. Unfortunatly this peace agreement has not become a reality.:2cents:

We go from good deeds of helping a child live, to religion wars. I love watching certain threads.

You say stole as if they just went in and invaded that land and took it. There was a lot that led up to the six day war and Israel came out with a huge victory even though they were hopelessly out numbered on all sides from all the surrounding nations military hostile build ups on their borders. They were going to invade and try to wipe them out but it didn't work like they had planned. Even then Israel was set to give the land back they conquered in a peace settlement. Unfortunatly this peace agreement has not become a reality.:2cents:

Well, Israel CLAIMED that their neighbours were massing armies at their borders, but Germany also claimed that the Polish were massing forces near the border. With the exception of christian Americans, nobody takes Israel's word at face value. There is no country that practices deception and political manipulation to the same degree as Israel.

The people of Israel want peace, the people of Palestine want peace, but the people in power do everything they can to perpetuate the violence, especially the Israelis. The very fact that the Likud party controls Israel speaks volumes about the situation. Making completely unreasonable demands, such as having Arafat order the militants to stop fighting, when they do not answer to him in any way, building a massive wall, often through Palestinian neighbourhoods, demolishing the houses of the families of SUSPECTED militants... This all serves to intensify the conflict, and don't think for a second they don't know that.

You say stole as if they just went in and invaded that land and took it. There was a lot that led up to the six day war and Israel came out with a huge victory even though they were hopelessly out numbered on all sides from all the surrounding nations military hostile build ups on their borders. They were going to invade and try to wipe them out but it didn't work like they had planned. Even then Israel was set to give the land back they conquered in a peace settlement. Unfortunatly this peace agreement has not become a reality.:2cents:

Well, um, they DID invade it and take it -- that's why their troops are still there, 37 years later... It is one of the prevailing Israeli myths about 67 that the bordering Arab nations were "Just about to attack, so we just HAD to attack them first! ... Why are we hanging on to all this land we somehow occupied? ... Uh... ANTI-SEMITE!"

A country that suddenly attacks their neighbors and occupies huge chunks of land in the process, which they then occupy in perpetuity (even though not having the land DURING the war didn't slow them down) is probably not acting in self-defense.

And the best part about occupying land is that it's really easy to stop occupying -- you just leave... No 'peace settlement' involved.

This exerpt was picked from a site I visit on occasion. It doesn't sound like the build up was a myth. Just by the sounds of what was comming out of the Syrian leadership they were ready and anxious to wipe out every last Israeli in that area. This is just the tip of the iceberg as I understand it. Terrorist attacks had increased against Israel in the months proceeding the build up. "On May 15, Israel's Indipendance Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.
Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967):
"As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence." 1
An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:
"Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." 2 Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 60 Ibid."

This exerpt was picked from a site I visit on occasion. It doesn't sound like the build up was a myth. Just by the sounds of what was comming out of the Syrian leadership they were ready and anxious to wipe out every last Israeli in that area. This is just the tip of the iceberg as I understand it. Terrorist attacks had increased against Israel in the months proceeding the build up. "On May 15, Israel's Indipendance Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.
Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16.

Grab ye a map, my friend! The Sinai is about twice the size of Israel itself, and was Egyptian territory that was occupied first by the Israelis in 1956 and then by a UN force. Reoccupying your land is entirely fair. Also, they occupied with a massive TWO DIVISIONS!
Also, the 'ready for battle' is a major skew -- both the Israelis AND Arab nations had troops on their common borders. By May 18, Israeli troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights, inside the demilitarized buffer zone they illegally occupied in the 50s.

Further, there'll be no real war between countries before they actually mobilize their troops, which happened all at about the same time -- the last couple of days of May 1967.

If the Arabs REALLY wanted to smash Israel, apparently they were totally ready by 20 May 1967. To believe the Arabs were ready to attack in mid-May, and then politely waited for a couple weeks as Israel (the mortal enemy they swore to destroy) called up its reserves, mobilized and organized the troops, readied its aircraft and tanks... and the Arabs basically sat around until Israel started blowing up their airfields and crashing over the borders... takes a stretch of credulity.

Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967):
"As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence." 1
An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:
"Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." 2

Rhetoric 'n chest-thumping -- if they were massing up the troops and ready to attack, they would have, WITHOUT waiting for Israel to get in the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth hit.

Also, of course, Israel's STILL occupying all that land, with all the people in it, building settlements like crazy.

Here's a more accurate look at the Six-Day War, from Jews For Justice...

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/1967war.html

Will have to read that link when I get home from work then I can respond properly. Sorry about the delay.

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

I read through the site. It's a good read. It has even slightly changed a few of my views on the matter but not the view I (and many others) hold that Israel was not the agressor until provoked by Arab nations using terrorism, Threats("Rhetoric 'n chest-thumping") of annhilation, And closing of the sea routs for Israeli shipping. Yes they did strike first. Not to do so would have been a huge mistake, The Arab world was not just sitting on their thumbs in the weeks proceeding the war. They were continuing terrorist strikes against Israel and in unity telling the world that they were poised to drive the Zionist into the sea. Israel only had 2 choices flight or fight. They showed amazing restraint in the months proceeding the was on the advice of the US not to counter attack the terrorist activities against their land. Go back to some of the articles printed during that time to see what was happening. They paint a very different story than does that site. Israel is not without it's own faults on this matter either. I believe that many of the reports and claims by Israel(as well as other nations)of large amounts of troops gathering on their borders were exaggerated and the threat of being totally annihilated was probably not as grave as they made out. I would like to see peace in that area and I would also like to see Israel return to the land originally set be the UN. Hopefully the comming year will be one of change on both sides (Arab and Israeli) but I doubt it.

Anyway, I am obliged that you have brought new light to some of the goings on during the war. I have a feeling that we won't come to an agreement readily on this subject but I do enjoy learning new facts about it.

Time for work
Later.

I read through the site. It's a good read. It has even slightly changed a few of my views on the matter but not the view I (and many others) hold that Israel was not the agressor until provoked by Arab nations using terrorism, Threats("Rhetoric 'n chest-thumping") of annhilation, And closing of the sea routs for Israeli shipping. Yes they did strike first. Not to do so would have been a huge mistake, The Arab world was not just sitting on their thumbs in the weeks proceeding the war. They were continuing terrorist strikes against Israel and in unity telling the world that they were poised to drive the Zionist into the sea. Israel only had 2 choices flight or fight. They showed amazing restraint in the months proceeding the was on the advice of the US not to counter attack the terrorist activities against their land. Go back to some of the articles printed during that time to see what was happening. They paint a very different story than does that site. Israel is not without it's own faults on this matter either. I believe that many of the reports and claims by Israel(as well as other nations)of large amounts of troops gathering on their borders were exaggerated and the threat of being totally annihilated was probably not as grave as they made out. I would like to see peace in that area and I would also like to see Israel return to the land originally set be the UN. Hopefully the comming year will be one of change on both sides (Arab and Israeli) but I doubt it.

The Gulf of Aqaba was in fact Egyptian territorial waters. The only country that disputed Egypt's right to close it to shipping was (predictably) the US... As for terrorism, the link provided gives a good idea of how that happened -- namely, the Israelis would just push deep into Syrian territory until they were fired on, and then claim 'terrorism!'

It's IDF strategy number one, which can best be observed by watching Israel repeatedly violating Lebanese airspace (http://www.google.ca/search?q=israeli+jets+lebanon&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&meta=).... provoke provoke provoke provoke provoke provoke THEY'RE ATTACKING US!

Anyway, I am obliged that you have brought new light to some of the goings on during the war. I have a feeling that we won't come to an agreement readily on this subject but I do enjoy learning new facts about it.

Agreed, and thanks to you also! I love a healthy, educational, INFORMED debate of the issues... Seems to be hard to find these days...

The Gulf of Aqaba was in fact Egyptian territorial waters. The only country that disputed Egypt's right to close it to shipping was (predictably) the US...
- Canadian Prime Minister L.B. Pearson in the House of Commons, May 24/67 "...something should be done about the right of Israeli ships, which was exercised by all other ships until a day or so ago, to navigate the Suez Canal There have been decisions by the Security Council of the UN affirming that right, but in practice, the affirmation has not meant very much to Israel ."
As for terrorism, the link provided gives a good idea of how that happened -- namely, the Israelis would just push deep into Syrian territory until they were fired on, and then claim 'terrorism!'


- Canadian Prime Minister L.B. Pearson in the House of Commons, June 8/67.
In 1967, Palestinian raiders from Syria increasingly put the lives of Jewish immigrants in danger. Encouraged by the U.S.S.R ., Egypt , and its charismatic leader Gamal Nasser, was thought to have "expansionism." tendencies, and a desire to invade Israel . As 100,000 Egyptian troops massed on the Sinai , Israel took the only action available to prevent certain defeat...on June 5, 1967, they attacked. A brilliantly planned air attack destroyed almost the entire Egyptian air force as it sat on the ground. By gaining air superiority, the Israelis were then able to maneuver their tank corps with impunity, not fearing Egyptian air attacks. A series of armored cavalry and tank task forces then advanced rapidly and surrounded or cut-off Egyptian defenders . Six days later, it turned into a rout, and the Israelis gained both territory and the respect of other military forces in the region.
- Amin al-Huweidi, the former Egyptian Minister of War and head of the General Intelligence .
"In recent weeks, the Middle East has passed through a crisis whose shadows darkened the entire world. The crisis has many consequences, but only one cause. Israel 's right to peace, sovereignty...indeed its very right to exist, has been forcibly denied and aggressively attacked."







Agreed, and thanks to you also! I love a healthy, educational, INFORMED debate of the issues... Seems to be hard to find these days... Me too. :)