code 41 1992 park avenue

Hi this is my first post. I recently acquired a 1992 Buick Park Ave. A beautiful car... that seems to hate me.

my problem is that she shakes as i slow down and stalls when I stop. Usually about 10 minutes or so of driving. it doesnt stall everytime but less when i baby the brake (i think) Its getting worse quickly and I've changed the spark plug wires and that didnt help also the previous owner recently changed the Cam sensor yet I'm getting a code 41.

i know nothing about cars... someone please help before i end up bankrupt. thanks.

sounds like a fuel problem, put some drygas in the tank, or a few bottles of rubbing alcohol to a half tank, then bounce the rear shocks to stir it up. Change the fuel filter as well. At the worst, you'll need a new fuel pump and sending unit.

I just picked up some dry gas and some "complete fuel system cleaner" Im going to give it a shot right now... Ill tell you how it went. thanks a lot

120 mi. later and my baby is running almost beautifully now. The only problem i have now is when i try to pass, she jumps forward in bursts, I'm assuming it's just residule effects and it'll pass... right? thanks for the help.

You might want to try and change or have changed for you the crankshaft sensor - since some of what you described sounds similiar to what i was experiencing (slight bucking and then conking out). It may not be related - but i almost remember having that Code41 as well - and nothing i did except changing the crankshaft ever really fixed my car. Actually when i think about it - one thing i changed too was the TPS (throttle position sensor) which is pretty easy to change out - that might be related. Anyhow - just a couple of suggestions if your at your ropes end. Im a little crankshaft sensor crazy at this point - so you might want to disregard what i say :screwy:
Mike

I'm not quite at my ropes end. she seems to be coming around for me. but with 156k (or so) i should look into all the parts i can.

Need help!

I got a code 41 as well. Replaced camshaft sensor, simple switch-out. I have erased the computer 5 times and everytime I start it up, service engine soon light comes on right away with the same code! Just replaced crankshaft sensor about 8 months ago. Not into putting stuff in gas tank because no issue with fuel. Now I check my chiltons and it has one listing for code 41 - the cam shaft curcuit. I double check the Haynes manual and it has 3 listings for code 41 - #1. cam shaft curuit - #2. cylinder select error (mem-cal or ecm problem) for fuel injected engines, and, #3. no distributor signals ecm, or faulty ignition module (carbureted models). I don't believe #3 applies here.

So with this info, can anyone help point me in the right direction in what to replace next? Thanks!

The code does not necessarily mean the sensor itself is bad, as you stated, the circuit, check the wiring out for cracks causing a open in which the circuit is not functioning, as well as the connectors for corrosion.

I would also recommend a good injector cleaning, if you don't want to put any in tank detergents then you can have it serviced directly at the fuel rail.

Good point about the "circuit", guess I wasn't thinking well. I will go trace that.

Can you explain the fuel issue and how it is related to the camshaft circuit? I'm lost one that one and would like to learn so I know what to do next time. Thanks.

The crankshaft reference signal is used for the ignition timing, and as back up to the cam for injectors.

The camshaft signal is used for optimal injector firing. So if the injectors are clogging up, I could see where there may be a conflict. If the the cam signal prompts the ECM to fire the injector, but fuel is dribbling out and casuing the ECM to keep reevaluating exhaust counts, the ECM may say "hey we're constanlty rich, and the cam signal says to fire again, it must be lying" :dunno:

Ok, that was great info! Not doing to good on thinking straight today! I will play with the injectors, cleaning and so on. And retest the fuel pressure. I can't thank you enough. I'll post back soon.

Thanks for all the help so far! Ok would like to know the exact psi I should have at the fuel rail, please. I still have the code 41, after adding additives to fuel. The light just keeps coming on when I start the car for the first time after a memory reset, plus now I got a hesitation when I push the gas pedal. If I slowly push the pedal - no problem, pushing it faster it seems like there is a delay and it just takes off. Still only code 41. This thread is for a code 41 right? I noticed it changed to 14. Thanks.

Yeah, 14 is CTS problem.

About 40 psi @ idle is a good average reading reading. Anything lower than 36 psi @ idle would be incutcive of a problem.

Ok, reading 48 psi.

I was playing around and noticed that the idle is about 500 rpm, when I give it a little gas it hesitates, just tapping the pedal. It wants to die and goes right up to about 1500 rpm and stays there for about 5 seconds and goes down to about 850 rpm for about 5 more seconds then slowly goes to 500 rpm. It does this every time I push the pedal. That's with the ac on. With the ac off it just goes to about 1200 and back to 850 rpm and slowly to 500 rpm. At 500 rpm the car idles sick, its not overheating but is getting very hot, enough to kick in the high speed fan. Still got code 41, I did find in my scanner book afew more things that could be at fault, six total, I'll list them -

1. Cam sensor failure
2. Cylinder select error
3. Tach input error - no reference pulse during engine run
4. Electronic spark timing (EST) circuit - open or shorted to ground
5. Direct ignition system fault (DIS) - bypass circuit open or shorted to ground during engine run
6. Ignition system fault - loss of 1X - Reference Pulse signal

Hope this is helpful. Replaced cam sensor, tach does read, and the rest I'm lost. What do I do next? Thanks!

Rob, it sounds like you are losing your cam sensor signal, either from a broken or missing magnet in the cam gear or either the sensor and associated wiring going to the ICM. Code 41, can also be the crank sensor on these cars!

FYI;
As with the crankshaft sensor, the ignition module sends a reference signal to a Hall-effect switch in the camshaft sensor. A permanent magnet, attached to the camshaft sprocket, passes close to the sensor once each camshaft revolution (the camshaft rotates once for every two crankshaft revolutions). As the magnet passes beside the sensor, the Hall-effect switch is activated by the magnetic field, and its transistor turns on to ground the ignition reference signal line and pulls its voltage low (0-0.1 volts).

The camshaft sensor "sync" pulse is received by the ignition module as piston number 1 (and 4) reaches approximately 25 degrees ATDC on the power stroke. The camshaft signal output is also sent from the ignition module to the ECM.

The 3800 engine will not default to simultaneous (MFI) injection when the camshaft sensor signal is not received at any time, whether in bypass or Electronic Spark Timing (EST) mode.

If the camshaft signal pulse is not present during cranking, ECM/PCM signal logic begins sequencing injectors after two crankshaft revolutions or six pulses from the 3X reference signal. Code 41 is stored on the seventh pulse from the 3X signal and sequential injection begins in a random pattern.

There is a one in six chance that fuel injection will coincide correctly with valve opening. If injection is off, drivability is affected only a small amount (slight hesitation).

Source: GM Powertrain V6 Introduction to Fuel Injection, Diagnosis and Service by Ron Harlow.

http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_nxsmile.gif

Ok, makes alot more sense now. I understand better the functions on these sensors. I can test better with that info and hopefully pinpoint the problem. Will HOPEFULLY post back with cause.

When I replaced the cam sensor I noticed a groove worn into it, looks like this shape --> ( <--. About 16/32 deep. Is this normal wear?

No!!! Nothing should touch the sensor! It sounds like the cam magnet is trying to dislodge itself from the cam gear, if it has not already. Pull the sensor out and inspect the magnet ASAP. You may need to turn the engine and use a mirror to see it after you remove the sensor. Here is a good link on the subject;
Cam magnet replacement (http://6007.us/cammag.htm)

If I drop some small pieces of the magnet down the inside do I need to worry? Do I have to remove the timing cover to get those pieces out?

How many miles do you have on the PA? The reason I ask is, it might be wise to replace the timing set while you are at it!

Cntrysthbst, my timing set went out at roughly 140k, are you anywhere near that mileage? And, yes, the timing cover must be removed to gain access to the magnet, as it is (or should be) connected to the cam sprocket

Good you are both bring up the timing cause I got a question bout it :frown:.

I went with HotZ28's post with JB weld for the magnet and sanding it down. Worked beautiful. My magnet was destroyed. Eight buks and two hours later I have no code. I would have started replacing fuel injectors/fuel pump if I wouldn't have had some GREAT advice. Thanks!!!!!!

I was turning my crankshaft to find the magnet in the cam sprocket, I went alittle to far so I turned the crank the other way to center the magnet. I noticed that the cam sprocket wasn't moving when I turned the crank the other way, with alittle more turning it started moving. Just seemed like alot of play to me. Engine runs fine, seems like I should have more pick-up when taking off though. Mileage is 130, 128. Should I replace the timing chain? Would this help the engine run better?

What you saw, was slack in the chain, when the cam gear did not turn with the crank gear! Again, I hate to be the one to say it, but you need to add the timing set to your list of things done to your PA!! Be sure to replace the tensioner also. With all that slack, your timing is retarded and that will rob power! You will be surprised how much better it will run with a new timing set! By the way, please state your mileage again.:uhoh:
Good luck
:grinno:

All post titles edited to reflect "code 41" to keep things on track.
HotZ28

If it's anything like how mine turned out after a new timing set, you'll get MUCH better gas mileage as well...something that is good these days!

I was afraid of that. It has 130128.6 miles on it. Just over a hundred and thirty thousand miles. Yes it does have lack of power when taking off, and when downshifting to pass. And the gas mileage is terrible, I mean it's bad!!!

The tensioner helps keep the chain from having slack in it right? Is that what your talking about replacing? Is there ANYTHING at all I should replace when I replace the chain? Like the oil pump stuff? The crank seal? Do I need to worry about the wear of the sprockets?

That JB Weld is still holding the cam magnet and is a great quick fix! I trust JB Weld but am worried about how long it will hold the magnet in the sprocket. The engine goes from cold to hot and comes in contact with oil all the time. When I replace the chain is it better to just buy another magnet and replace it the right way? or is the JB Weld fine?

Thank you both for all your continued help!

If I remember correctly, the timing set came with 1)-new chain (obviously!)2)-new magnet 3) new sprockets...they all need to be replaced at the same time..(kill 3 birds with 1 stone, right?)
An oil change is done at the same time, and they had my cam sensor replaced while they were down there. They also remove the water pump, so that's your call if you want it replaced as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Hotz28 was refering to the serpentine belt tensioner?

Ok, sounds good. Ya your right about the tensioner I was focused on the inside of the timing cover - was thinking of the damper. Thanks

HotZ28,

Just a quick question. Started thinking to myself why the drivebelt tensioner?So just to double check - I've always referred to the chain damper as the tensioner for the chain. To me there are two definitions for the word tensioner on my car, one for the chain and one for the belt. Am I to replace the belt tensioner or the timing chain tensioner? Just wanted to make sure which one you are talking about! If you are talking about the chain tensioner, how would I know if mine has a chamfered of counterboard hole? Thanks

The parts below are what I used. I also put a new magnet in the cam gear (dealer item) and replaced the water pump while it was off. (Cheap insurance) If you will notice, there are two cam chain dampers (tensioner), one with chamfered bolt hole in block and the other with counterbored bolt hole in block. Wait until you see what you have prior to purchasing that item. The gasket kit should include everything you need for the front cover and water pump. The parts are available at most parts stores. Be sure to change the oil after the work because you will have coolant in the oil!!


http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Cloyes/Detail.html?C3071.jpg

http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Cloyes/Detail.html?95175.jpg
CLOYES Part # 95175 (L27, L67 ENG SINGLE BOLT CAM); Used in a block W/chamfered bolt hole

http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Cloyes/Detail.html?95295.jpg
CLOYES Part # 95295 (L27, L67 ENG SINGLE BOLT CAM); Used in a block W/counterbored bolt hole

http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Fel-Pro/Detail2.html?cds.demo.activant.com/C2C/20/205500/100/TCS45840_TOP.jpg

Thanks! Code 41 now is like getting a transmission code. It's not a good one to get. Might run into a question through the process, if not will let you know the outcome!

Been done for awhile now, just wanted everyone to know - mission accomplished! Thanks for the great knowledge you ALL shared!

Out of all the Dealers, mechanics, other Buick sites, and so on,
no one, no place, and no other site, compares to Automotive Forums! Thanks!

Cam sensor and magnet are replaced, cleared codes, still having an issue. But something else set off an issue.. I wash my engine every year and it's been fine so far. But this last time when I started the car it seemed to be missing bad and stopped running every few minutes. I eventually made it home and found that the issue was a weak coil. Ran fine for a few days and then I accelerated hard (I don't drive on highways often) The car missed once and then stopped running and since then has had the problem of running a few minutes, stalling, running a few seconds, barely firing, and then no spark. Replaced the crank sensor and it worked fine for a few days on short drives, then I got on the highway again.. Same hard stall, and then I had to wait nearly 15 minutes between startings just to move a quarter mile at a time. So I have my harmonic balancer off again, checked resistance between the sensor and ICM and it checks fine. The crank sensor has some wear grooves, but from what I've read that's pretty normal. I have a spare ICM that I changed out, but the problem persists. I'm almost ready to get a dealership diagnosis or re-wire the car myself, but I lack that kind of money or time. For the record: New fuel pump, filter, and pressure regulator a few days ago and good pressure at the time. New alternator a few weeks ago as the last one was failing. Tap test turned out fine on the ECM.

And today: New CPS (not a cheap one) and Harmonic Balancer, no rubbing, and dielectric grease on ICM, crank, and cam sensor plugs. Code went away for about 15 minutes and it ran better than ever.. then it stalled while I was inside getting a drink and now the code is back, wont spark at all, even running the backup ICM after 20 minutes off. I've checked all available fuses and the pump cycles when the key is turned. I don't have a noid light but I know my pressure is fine. I'm rather open to suggestions.