The Tall T Gets Taller - Torsion Bars and AAL's

Well no pics yet (I know, I'm sorry) ... they're at Kirk's house. And there aren't that many anyway ... but we'll get a whole slew of them next weekend at ECXC I'm sure. :bandit: We worked on my truck for 5 or 6 hrs. in the RAIN yesterday - sometimes a downpour, most of the time just an annoying drizzle that soaked us to the bone. A big fat THANK YOU to Will and Kirk who got drenched under my truck and standing in Kirk's drieway just to help me out. Anyway ...


'PowerBarz' by Sway-A-Way torsion bars - awesome. I can't believe the difference when driving, like night and day. Smoooooooth! And I still have on my front stock shocks, which have been bottomed out numerous times in the past 52K miles!

Rancho Add-A-Leaf - again, I'm surprised. Nice and smooth. I've always been told that AAL turn your ride to crap but these sure don't ... maybe it's because we actually "replaced a leaf" instead of "adding a leaf" ... ? Not sure, but I like 'em. They raised up the back of my truck 2" and gave me back the stock attitude rake that I wanted after the torsion bars leveled out my truck. :) Not to mention I'm glad to be rid of that flat load leaf at the bottom that just wants to get snagged on rocks! As far as the install went, it was pretty much like any other DIY project - it takes some time to figure out WTF is going on with the first half of the install and then when you finally get it done, the second half takes a lot less time. I drove around with my rear shocks set on 1 and it was smooooooth and then turned them up to 3 and although not as smooth, the ride was still great.


New measurements (with 32" M/T's - just under 1/2 tread left on front tires, 3/4 tread left on rears):


FRONT:

Ground to uppermost part of lower A-arm = 12"
Ground to top of wheel well fender lip = 35"
Ground to frame just behind first body mount = 15.5"

REAR:

Ground to frame just in front of spring hanger = 16.5"
Ground to top of wheel well fender lip = 37"
Ground to bottom of rear shackle = 18.5"
Ground to bottom of rear diff = 10"
Bottom of rear bumpstop to top of axle = 5.75"


(BTW - all measurements are the same on both driver's and passenger's sides)

Sounds like a lot of misery (install in the rain) that will be forgotten when you take the new suspension components out for a little testing.
As for not posting pics...sounds to me like a way to increase your post count :D.
By the way, in your opinion what is the advantage of the Rancho addaleaf you used over a larger rear shackle (such as the infamous SLR 2.5" shackle)? I'm assuming you think the addaleaf is in fact a better way to go since that's what you did.
Obviously the best route is to replace the entire spring pack but does this Rancho addaleaf really affect the suspension geometry in a very negative way?
I've got a buddy who swears that replacing the entire spring pack is the "only" way to go & I sure would like to argue that the Rancho addaleaf isn't going to be detrimental in some way in the long run....
One more thing, where did you get your PowerBarz? I called xterraparts.com & was told they were out of stock & that I should go to swayaway but (doh!) they don't sell direct....

Thanks for any feedback.

Congradulations on your new mods, and thanks for the measurements :)

Originally posted by xterrabull
Sounds like a lot of misery (install in the rain) that will be forgotten when you take the new suspension components out for a little testing.


You got that right. :)


As for not posting pics...sounds to me like a way to increase your post count :D.
By the way, in your opinion what is the advantage of the Rancho addaleaf you used over a larger rear shackle (such as the infamous SLR 2.5" shackle)? I'm assuming you think the addaleaf is in fact a better way to go since that's what you did.
Obviously the best route is to replace the entire spring pack but does this Rancho addaleaf really affect the suspension geometry in a very negative way?
I've got a buddy who swears that replacing the entire spring pack is the "only" way to go & I sure would like to argue that the Rancho addaleaf isn't going to be detrimental in some way in the long run....


I have both the 2" SLR shackles (Gothamist and I were the first guys to install them months ago) and the AAL now. I've also had my spring pack replaced by Nissan at 45K miles under (extended) warranty.

The shackles have more of an adverse effect on the geometry of the spring pack than the AAL does - the AAL replaces the load leaf and has a bit more of a curve than the stock leaves, thus making them curve upwards at either end a bit more - not that big a deal compared to the shackles, which literally push the rear of the spring pack lower to the ground and (I think) will eventually flatten out the springs. Nonetheless, I have both of these items instead of buying a $500+ new spring pack. I got both the shackles and the AAL for DIRT CHEAP so it was the best thing for me to do right now - further down the line (should be quite a while) when my Nissan springs are sagging and the AAL isn't helping much anymore and the shackles just aren't doing any good, I will be replacing my spring pack with the best one I can find.


One more thing, where did you get your PowerBarz? I called xterraparts.com & was told they were out of stock & that I should go to swayaway but (doh!) they don't sell direct....



I got them thru my buddy FSRBIKER. You should contact him if interested ... :D

I hate to split hairs here, but...
You mention the Rancho AAL adding 2" of height to the back. Is this in addition to the 1" or 1.5" or 2" you gained with the SLR shackle?
Or maybe your AAL compensated for some flattening of your second leaf set & both the AAL and shackle give you 2" above stock height?
So, I'm wondering what the Rancho AAL w/out the SLR shackle would do to the back end height (i.e. raise it .5"? 1"? 1.5"?).
Not trying to be a PITA here, just wondrin'.

Originally posted by xterrabull
I hate to split hairs here, but...
You mention the Rancho AAL adding 2" of height to the back. Is this in addition to the 1" or 1.5" or 2" you gained with the SLR shackle?
Or maybe your AAL compensated for some flattening of your second leaf set & both the AAL and shackle give you 2" above stock height?
So, I'm wondering what the Rancho AAL w/out the SLR shackle would do to the back end height (i.e. raise it .5"? 1"? 1.5"?).
Not trying to be a PITA here, just wondrin'.


Yes, that amount of lift is additional to the 2" I got with the SLR shackles ... but the AAL without the shackles would still provide you with 1.5 - 2" or so of lift. The replaced spring pack just helped a bit.

Nice!
Thanks for the measurments.
It's cool to have something to compare against.

Originally posted by rhombus
Nice!
Thanks for the measurments.
It's cool to have something to compare against.

No sweat ... sorry we won't be meeting you this weekend. :(

Well I ordered my NisMo t-bars today, still looking for the best price on the Rancho AAL's. I doubt I'll get them until next week. That should give me some time to get the AAL's Thanks to Schlud and Mr.T, I think the install should go off w/o a hitch!
:D

Originally posted by Aquamander
Well I ordered my NisMo t-bars today, still looking for the best price on the Rancho AAL's. I doubt I'll get them until next week. That should give me some time to get the AAL's Thanks to Schlud and Mr.T, I think the install should go off w/o a hitch!
:D

Cool. Before you try installing the AAL's, give me a holler and I'll give you a few tips to make the install as smooth as possible ...

Thanks! Yeah I think it may be a week or two before I'm ready. Like yourself, I want to wait and do the mods after I get all the parts.

I do have one question though, do you think it will be okay to put the t-bars on even though I don't have a bullbar? I'm prepared for the front end to be a little tighter, I figure I'll be able to ride with my shocks on 3 to kinda balance it out.

I guess I should have asked this question before....:bonghitte

yeah, go ahead and install them. just index them properly so you have enough room to crank them more once you get the bullbar on there.

I see, in effect what you are saying is to set the bars up where I have the pre-load I want, but the adjuster-arm thingys are close to the bottom of their travel right?

If this is so, how do I check the height of the t-bars to know they are indexed properly? Is that posted in someones set-up notes?
I'll read through them again. I don't mean to seem stupid about this, but I'm trying to visualize the process before I get started. :bloated:

Thanks for all the help bro's

not exactly. what you want to do is index the bars so the anchor is just inside the crossmember and out of harms way when tightenend up to hold the weight. this way it gives you maximum room to adjust them up once the bars settle a bit and once you get the ARB on there.

I just added the Rancho AAL to my truck.
I love it. I believe the ride is actually *smoother* than before (I actually replaced the stock load leaf w/the AAL like (I believe) everyone else who's done this).
My only concern is the resilience of the whole spring pack w/out the load leaf but I don't really tow much so it's probably moot.
Anyways, I would also like to give a big "thanks" to Todd (FSRBiker) @ EOE (website HERE (http://www.extreme4x4parts.com)) for the awesome customer service....
I think this pretty much ends the chapter on my suspension until my tires wear out (31x10.5 all terrains) and there are more (& hopefully cheaper!!!) suspension lift options...maybe ~1.5 years from now). For now, though, I'm All :D's.

I have 31x10.5 Yokohame Geolander AT's; 1/2 tread on rear, 3/4 tread on front. R is passenger side measurement & L is driver side measurement. Measurements are w/truck on suburban driveway of "average" slope. Disclaimer: I don't claim that these measurements make sense 100% :D.
I left Philosopher's measurements for comparison & added the Nissan factory measurement for the front ride height (located at bottom of the "front" section).
Overall, I'd say my car has *slightly* more rake than stock when sitting on level ground....

FRONT:

Ground to uppermost part of lower A-arm = 12"
R: 12", L: 12 1/8"
Ground to top of wheel well fender lip = 35"
R: 34.5", L: 34 3/4"
Ground to frame just behind first body mount = 15.5"
R: 15", L: 15"
(Ground to bottom of front steering stop bracket) minus (Ground to center of lower A-arm pivot bolt) = ?
R: 2 5/8", L: 2 5/8"

REAR:

Ground to frame just in front of spring hanger = 16.5"
R: 16", L: 16 1/8"
Ground to top of wheel well fender lip = 37"
R: 36 3/4", L: 36 5/8"
Ground to bottom of rear shackle = 18.5"
R: 19 1/4", L: 19 3/16"
Ground to bottom of rear diff = 10"
R: 9", L: 9"
Bottom of rear bumpstop to top of axle = 5.75"
R: 5", L: 4 7/8"

Do you have the AAL and the shackles, or just the AAL's?

I only have the AAL & my OE springpack is still in good shape (which is another way of saying I don't get off road as much as I would like--GRRR:mad: ).

Originally posted by xterrabull
I only have the AAL & my OE springpack is still in good shape (which is another way of saying I don't get off road as much as I would like--GRRR:mad: ).


Not true. The springpacks are just inconsistent. My pack is still good and I go offroading a lot more than people I know who have wasted leafs.

Well...maybe you don't go offroad enough. I'll let you speak for yourself on that one. :D

I've noticed that at full droop in the rear, my brakelines/vent lines were almost the point of no slack. It's a little scary. I know I can put longer lines and modify the bracket on the axle but I have too much lift in the back. (is there anything such as too much lift? hehehe) I don't think pulling the shackles will really decrease the lift in the rear as they are more for articulation than lift right? :bloated:

I also had to make new 10mm spring pins! I stripped out one when I was trying to tighten the springs before I reinstalled the U-bolts. When I managed to get the stripped bolt off, I broke out the calipers and started measuring things. I found (at least on my X) that the OEM springpack had a thickness around 1.650" The new spring set-up, (+add-a-leaf / - the OEM load spring) came to a thickness of 1.375" The pin thingee is threaded to accept only about 1.400".
So I made a mad dash for the shop (my greasy ass in my wifes new Altima) and took some 10mm socket head bolts and turned them down to fit the hole in the axle bracket. I got home, started putting the new hardware on and discovered that the shock mount thingee didn't have a big enough hole to accept the new nuts that I was using for my bolts. So at 11:00pm I had to run to Lowe's and buy a 3/4 drill to modify the plate. I pulled the plates off the shocks and drilled them. I also noticed that by pulling the plates it made it easier to reinstall the plates once everything was ready to go back together. I had to use brute force to align the pins once I was ready to bolt everything back together. I had my wife at the helm of the floorjack, lowering and jacking as I realigned everything. (how's that for a woman, huh?) she did the standard bitch about starting a mod project in the middle of the week, but I think she was getting tired and cranky.
All in all had I been a little more prepared, I would have been ready to do the install a little quicker. I too am lifted in the front about as far as I can go without going with new uppers and ball joints. I like it, and the ride, I think is much smoother. Thanks to Todd and EOE for good buy on the AAL's!

I think this episode could fall into Syncro's dammit, dammit, son of a bitch class of install glitches!

Going to try them out tommorrow.....
:D

just so you know, what you could have done was use the dies from a tap and die set and fixed the threads and extended them.

also, most of us reused the stock pin with no problems. hmmmm.. so you had to modify the shock mount plate? did i understand that correctly?


glad i can be quoted. :cool:

True, I could have run a die on the stock pins. The first one was dead. I f'ed it up in order to get it off. The stock pins will work, it's just that it's not threaded far enough. (at least mine weren't) I used an 10m course thread to replace the OEM pins. As you may know, I'm a machinist by trade. Making the new pins wasn't any trouble at all. It was just a hassle to drive to the shop and make a pair. Like you said, the stock pins will work, (I don't see how folks are getting them tight without running the nut up onto unthreaded material.) I still think caution should be used to prevent stripping the bolt and/or nut. I just wanted to give the heads up. Most folks don't have access to a machine shop, so your advise on using a die would be the best way to prevent this problem. However, I think my 10m course thread is better suited for this kind of application courser the thread, deeper the pitch. less chance of stripping them in the future.

Yeah, since I used a different thread in a pinch, I had to use the nuts I had available to me. They needed a larger diameter hole through the shock mount plate. Not much mind you, I had to open it up by about 1/16 per side for them to fit.

I pulled the SLR shackles late last night. I was too worried about snatching the lines from the axle. I need to look into this further, see if I can find some longer lines and decide if I really need that kind of droop with the AAL's on. I decided to err in the favor of swapping out the shackles instead of tearing something up when I go wheelin' later this afternoon. I swapped them out in about an hour, so it's not much of a PITA.

I don't want to seem like chicken little here, I thought it was important to let others know that a potential problem may exsist.

Besides that, the AAL's kick ass. The ride on the road is greatly improved. I don't know about the rest of you but My X seems a little less bouncy...contrary to what skeptics have said about AAL's in other threads in other forums. The T-bars in conjunction with the AAL's are a vast improvement. Now it's time to see how they perform off road.

Thanks Syncro!

(p.s. When do you think you guys in the MAXC will be coming back down for a Tellico trip? I was sorry I missed the trip, it would be fun to meet and go wheelin with you. Perhaps this year's ECXC?)

How did the tension on your brakelines increase at full droop when you added the add-a-leafs? Wouldn't the fact you didn't change shocks or bumpstops mean that the brakelines wouldn't be any more tight regardless of whether or not you have the shackles installed?

At full droop mine are tight, but not guitar-string pluckable.

You're right, the shocks would be the limiting factor!DOH! I'm a dufuss! :bloated:

Of course AQUA X performed wonderful today. We went and crawled on some nasty big cobblestone hills. I only had to rethink one line. I stuffed the front right tire on a wheel hang and couldn't seem to get up on top of it. I had to back down the hill and start out on a different angle than before...now it's just like I want it! I think I may have pulled on the vent hose during the install and got freaked.

Right on. I didn't mean to be curt, it's just I went through the same thing--I ramped my X at Skid-Row just after the shackle install to make sure the brakelines were okay, at which point Eric (Skid-Row man) asked me why I was checking them...the shocks hadn't changed...I looked at him, thought it through a minute or two, and went..."oh yeah...I feel dumb." :rolleyes:

Having said that, I would still like to lengthen the lines out a bit at some point, just for peace of mind...who knows, I could snag a tree limb or something and having a bit of slack would be nice. I think at this point though we're all getting pretty close to the limits of travel on the stock driveshaft...anyone know for sure?

the tension of the srping pack is what we used to get the nuts off that bolt and to get them back on. whenever we needed tension we lowered the truck a bit and that put the tension we needed on there to tighten the nut.

as for tellico. who knows. there is no way i would run an event at telico. the trails are too narrow, to many people and the possibilites for damage too high for most people. when i go back there, i was thinking of getting a few people and renting a cabin and making a week of it. wheeling, hiking, fishing, drinking and good times. there is plenty to do around there. i just need to find a crowd of people interested in doing that. :-)

Aw heck Goth, you weren't being curt, this is the positive constructive discussion that can be useful for those who follow the ol'mod trail so to speak.
I too have wondered about the angle of the driveshaft and the depth of the slip yoke. (does that make sense) This is another good question to ponder. I haven't really looked close at the assembly but I wonder how it's built and what kind of travel it has.

Brent, you care to comment on this?

Hell yeah Syncro, I'm in if you get something going. Our plans are wide open after the holidays. By that time people's pocket books will be recovered from GOX.

We should toss around the idea in the coming months. Perhaps we can generate some interest, get MAXC, SEXC, and FLXX clubs together. This will give me time to get my bullbar and sliders put on. I would be doing it this month but I have to have a tooth crowned, $580.00!

POOOF! there goes my bullbar fund. :(

Just how much are those old step rails worth anyways? hehehehe
:D

Of course, we could all get together next Memorial Day and crash the Monteagle jeep rally! I know where everyone camps! :bandit:

There's nothing in the ESM about the angle or the yoke depth, no surprise there.

Tellico is my old stomping grounds, used to go out that way all the time when I was young. Be sure and hike up to the top of Bald River falls, and go for a swim a way up above it. There are a couple of places where the river shoots through a narrow gap and you can float down the sluice and into a pool below. And no, you're nowhere near the lip of the falls itself.
If you want a fairly civilized place to camp, Indian Boundary isn't far away on the TN side. There's a nice little lake with a large sandy beach.
There is a nice little primitive campground a few miles up North River road, right on North River, and a couple of good swimming holes at the bends there.
A few more miles up there is a schweet old hunting cabin up the road past a very old log bridge that crosses the river. People still drove across that bridge but I sure as heck would be scared to. It's beefy, but it's past its prime. It's a nice hike up to the cabin.
Stratton Meadows is a nice place to chill out at the top of the mountain.

Brent

Talking with SLR a few months ago about a possible driveshaft spacer when I go solid up front and spring over in the rear they did not think I would need one but could make one from old plans they have(I am not sure though if the driveshafts have changed over the years though). They are running their lift with the new spring pack and said they could go a few inches more before the driveshaft would slip out, I sure don't want to be the first to experience this so more research needs to be done to be sure.