turbo my B18, or LSvtec?

well i swapped the b18 into my car a while ago and i've stumbled on a little extra money.. so i want some opinions :)

i figure that it will cost me about as much to lsvtec as it will to turbo the LS motor so what do you all think would be more cost effective?
eventually i wish to have both but what should i start with?

anyone run LS turbo or LSvtec and have good/bad things to say about either?


if i LSvtec now i will leave the rods stock and put new rods when i turbo it.

if i turbo it now i will leave stock rods and run 8lbs or so until i lsvtec when i will put new rods in, then run 15-18lbs.


keep in mind i'm on a budget and will probably have to live with this decision for about six months before i can have both.. also this car is a daily driver hehe, either thing i choose can be done in a weekend.. i'm not new at this and hondas certainly aren't complicated :D i've done a couple of sohcvtec turbo and a d16a6 turbo but this lsvtec thing sounds a little more challenging :)

I've heard LS-Turbo can be safer than LS-Vtec provided you have the right managment. LS-Vtec has to be built right or else you'll have a quick smokey car that may stall at the next light. Either way, remember that LS bottom end is not that strong and revs should be kept below 8500 if you plan on using it as a daily driver.

If you're really on a buget I'd say LSVTEC is considerably cheaper than turbo....

i would have said just put a b18c1 in there... but i see you have the b18a/b in. boost could be faster but ls/vtec is going to cost less like Siz said... i would go boost just not too much and your ok.

You guys say boost is expensive? Sure I paid a few for mine but it has a propose it HAD TO BE LEGAL. If I did not care I could boost any car for about $400-500 including a make shift fuel management system. So boosting is really not that bad as far as cost.

As to the answer of this question I would boost the LS motor but also build it to run your 15-18psi now and worry about your vtec later. IMO

Ok this is some info I got from some kid at a meet a week or so ok, so don't flame me if I sound like an idiot.

I was talking to a kid who had a boosted mini-me in his rex, and he was saying that the vtec was acutally giving his turbo less potential or something, because it wasn't letting it spool to its full ability. And I've seen people before with vtec killer cams to get rid of vtec on their b series motors.

But in my personal opion, I would boost the LS right now and worry about your ls/vtec later. I'm not really a big fan of ls/vtec anyone, I've heard of/seen a lot of spun bearings and thrown rods if you don't build it right.

you could turbo the LS for cheaper than you could build an LSVTEC for, and make a shitload more power.

VTEC is good for boost. I was running the biggest SOHC VTEC cam made with my turbo and it was awesome.

you could turbo the LS for cheaper than you could build an LSVTEC for, and make a shitload more power.

VTEC is good for boost. I was running the biggest SOHC VTEC cam made with my turbo and it was awesome.
"was"? what happend? are you still running it?

well as i said i could do them both for about the same cost, as there is no emissions here in MN where i live.. b16 or b17 head alone is about 400$ and then i need a head gasket and vtec controller so i'm probably looking at around 700 for lsvtec.

turboing parts and fmu will probably run me around 700 and if i buy new rods there's 300$ on top of that so turbo will be more expensive if i build the engine too.. but i know it will produce mad powah yo. :p

i think i'm gonna turbo it cause i want a bov. hehe also i've been hearing some horror stories about lsvtec and such, as well as some great success stories so maybe i'll wait on that one a bit :)

thx for the opinions guys! :D

I bet theres more horror stories about turbos than about vtec

well as i said i could do them both for about the same cost, as there is no emissions here in MN where i live.. b16 or b17 head alone is about 400$ and then i need a head gasket and vtec controller so i'm probably looking at around 700 for lsvtec.



There is more to building LS/vtec than what you said, atleast to do it the right way. Don't expect to be reving to 8 grand, it just wont handle it.

You guys say boost is expensive? Sure I paid a few for mine but it has a propose it HAD TO BE LEGAL. If I did not care I could boost any car for about $400-500 including a make shift fuel management system.

Ya ya, thats all fine an dandy but when it comes down to it; someone with $2000 or so swap probably cares about their motor. Tell me how you're going to boost a car safley and efficently for near the same amount of money it would cost to build an LS block with new bearings and rings, and a few other minor things to make it like a new motor!?

I bet theres more horror stories about turbos than about vtec

Right, and it comes from corner cutting. Some people have went a little too far with the homemade turbos, I've seen some fucking scary setups and I've heard plenty of boo-hoo stories about how thing went wrong where they "saved" money with their turbo setups.

A decent setup isn't exactly dirt cheap, however not as much $ as we previously would have thought. Still though, you don't want to cheap out on an old turbo, you don't want shitty rubber charge pipes, you don't want some used wastegate off a 13 year old car, you don't want a FPR and the seat of your pants as a fuel managment system either.


Hybrid - LSVTECs can take 8k no problem, but you've gotta do it right. ARP head and rod bolts are a MUST.

First, i think you should ba asking people who have done this before.Dont ask so publicly cuz then everyone an there mothers wiil respond.

Ask people who have boosted an ls and people who have boosted an ls/vtec.That is the only full proof way to get the answers you nned.Or else everyone is gonna say yea i hear this and i hear that.

I can tell you from my experiance on an ls/vtec turbo.It's in a 4th gen 4-door civic lx.I have helped build this car since my buddy Rudy bought the damn car for 5 hundred.We started with just an ls block then swapped a 1st gen b16 head on.Eventually he came up with the money so we began getting parts for the turbo kit build.We went with a T3/4 hybrid setup.Set at 10psi it's a dialy driver.Now, amazing potential is found with a boosted ls/vtec.

But, many problems do arise.Mainly with bearings.He would go through bearings every 2 months.This was mainly because we couldn't get enough oil to them.First we swapped out the stock pump with a type R.But stil had problems.Even with a walbro oil pump, we still were not getting sufficient amounts of oil pressure.With alot of headaches and money, we finally figured out a solution.We went back to the type R integ oil pump and just retuned the car so it wouldn't run as fast to deplete the oil pressure.It now runs 12's on street tires all day long.

turbo LS dominates an all motor LS VTEC any way you look at it.

A decent setup isn't exactly dirt cheap, however not as much $ as we previously would have thought. Still though, you don't want to cheap out on an old turbo, you don't want shitty rubber charge pipes, you don't want some used wastegate off a 13 year old car, you don't want a FPR and the seat of your pants as a fuel managment system either.

I have a brand new aftermarket BOV, all metal charge pipes, 450cc injectors, and a chipped ECU. If it wasnt for me spending a little extra money on things i didnt need (werent necessary but still help), such as my cam, cam gear, & Apexi VAFC, i would have WELL under $1000 into my entire turbo setup. on a SOHC @ 10psi, it is VERY likely i am putting out 180-200WHP.

I have seen *ALOT* of "all motor" LS VTEC engines (or b18c/b16a for that matter) with type r cams (or similar), high compression pistons, and bolt ons making less than 160WHP.

compare cost for cost, you cant beat turbo. There are people running 15PSI on 100% BONE STOCK LS bottom ends, making close to 250WHP. Its all in the tuning and power output. without detonation, consisting of proper fuel and timing management, turbo is VERY reliable.

I have a brand new aftermarket BOV, all metal charge pipes, 450cc injectors, and a chipped ECU. If it wasnt for me spending a little extra money on things i didnt need (werent necessary but still help), such as my cam, cam gear, & Apexi VAFC, i would have WELL under $1000 into my entire turbo setup. on a SOHC @ 10psi, it is VERY likely i am putting out 180-200WHP.

Can you write a break-down of what all you bought and what it cost? This interests me. When I was going for a turbo setup a lot of the parts were a lot of money.. I know that you americans buy brand new parts for about half the price of what they are here in Canada, but I want to know exactly. Are you using a used turbo? Are you using the HF manifold for your turbo? With B series you have to buy an aftermarket one, or have a custom one made wich is quite a bit more money than an HF manifold and adapter plate.

I have seen *ALOT* of "all motor" LS VTEC engines (or b18c/b16a for that matter) with type r cams (or similar), high compression pistons, and bolt ons making less than 160WHP.

Somethings not right there, a B16A with boltons and type-R cams should make 160whp. Thats not right. Type-R cams and PR3 pistons in an LS block with bolt ons should be making 170+hp and around 130tq. to the wheels.

compare cost for cost, you cant beat turbo. There are people running 15PSI on 100% BONE STOCK LS bottom ends, making close to 250WHP. Its all in the tuning and power output. without detonation, consisting of proper fuel and timing management, turbo is VERY reliable.

I agree 100%. What I was saying with my reply is it really depends how much money you have to spend. If you have the cash for turbo, I wouldn't be thinking about LSVTEC, but if you have the cash for a nice LSVTEC build and are thinking about rigging up some ghetto turbo setup its probably best that you stick with all motor. You know what I'm saying?
Fuel managment is key to reliability with turbos..

I bet theres more horror stories about turbos than about vtec

Both set-ups can be horrific if not built well. At the end of the day it all boils down to cost, taste and reliability! For a cheap, all motor and reliable set-up, I'd go B18C. If you have a little more cash to burn the options are endless. In my experience however, LS-turbo will walk Ls-vtec all day.

Thanks for the input guys!

i'm gonna get some F1 cams for my LS motor and toss a T3 43/47 with 2" piping and DSM sidemount and see where i come out at on the dyno :)

oh yeah DSM 450's and fmu as well as fuel press. reg and 1g bov.

gonna run 9lbs.

in about six months i'll drop 800$ on lower comp. pistons and new rods and headbolts etc and then run about 18lbs

oh yeah DSM 450's and fmu as well as fuel press. reg and 1g bov.

gonna run 9lbs.

in about six months i'll drop 800$ on lower comp. pistons and new rods and headbolts etc and then run about 18lbs

DSM 450's + FMU = no.

you dont use them in conjunction. an FMU raises fuel pressure per psi of boost. larger injectors flow more cc's of fuel at the same pulsewidth.

maybe you should do a little more research into fuel management, becaues you'll find that an FMU in conjunction with DSM 450cc injectors will not run, and in the (very) unlikely event that you get it to idle, it will run so rich that you would get 3mpg and smoke out a cloud of black smoke so thick you wouldn't be able to see the car.

honestly. research your fuel management options a little better.

do you know why these guys arent making the hp they should. because htey do an ls vtec, put cams and pistons in but they still run the car off the stock ecu. you gotta get an aftermarket ecu like hondata or uberdata or whatevers to tune the car for the ls vtec with all the parts it has

do you know why these guys arent making the hp they should. because htey do an ls vtec, put cams and pistons in but they still run the car off the stock ecu. you gotta get an aftermarket ecu like hondata or uberdata or whatevers to tune the car for the ls vtec with all the parts it has

this is tru!! :screwy: never thought about that!

oh snap!

meant afc not fmu.. mybad.

:p

btw not the first time i've turboed something.. i was looking for a challenge so i was wondering more about lsvtec.. drivin honda's doesn't provide much challenge in the mods/workin on dept. :)

that's why i converted to RWD with my other hatchie and tossed a 350 in there. :evillol:

I would go turbo before going vtec anyday. Turboing a car is less expensive and in the long run, more power can be made with less money than with adding a vtec head. You don't just replace the head gasket and slap on a vtec head.
There are many things that come into play. Yes, you'll need a new head hasket, in addition to many other things; a vtec head, vtec ecu, external oil feed line, new timing belt, new vtec water pump, new head bolts, new vtec oil pump, etc..the costs keep adding up.
You're gonna want to replace w/ new bearings (rod and main), oil pan gasket, main seal, oil, oil filter, oil return gasket.
In addition there are many things that can't be done on ur own. your gonna need the rotating assemble balanced, your gonna need to do some welding to close the vtec oil galley in the head
In addition, if you want this to be a reliable setup, and to make the power that adding a vtec head is capable of, you're gonna want new pistons, rings, and rods.
Now, 99% of this work, most people don't have the knowledge, experience, or tools to do...so it has to be done by a shop which doubles the cost of the swap.
You're gonna need someone to wire the vtec which isn't that hard but requires someone knowledgeable about wiring.
This all just keeps adding up and up...can be anywhere from 2k to 4k to add vtec to a non vtec block.
Also, the motor must be out of the car to accomplish this.
Adding turbo is alot cheaper, more reliable (IMO), and is removable if needed.
If you go with a junkyard setup...you can boost relatively cheap...for under 1k...probably alot less than that if you take ur time and catch deals that pop up.
Turboing requires less components and work. If you get a turbo, EVERYTHING else can be fabbed up at a shop that welds. In addition you may want an intercooler, and a blow off valve.
If you only boost 5-7 lbs (which is perfectly safe..even without major tuning), you can be making the same power as adding a vtec head...and it is more reliable. If you want to turn up the boost, it just requires some good tuning. When people here tuning, they get scared and expect to have to do alot of work...it's not. It's as simple as creating a good fuel mixture for the motor to cause it not to have detonation. Turbo motors LOVE the extra fuel. It's better to have way to much than not have enough. With a little research, you can start to slightly tune the engine yourself, with like an Safc....taking you out of that RICER stage...lol. There are plenty of ls motors taking 10-15 lbs of boost on tuned engines...over 200Hp...closer to 250.

BTW...
I'm curious on everyone's opinion on what would be a decent setup on a B20b...
thinking a tuned s-afc, some DSM 450's, an ebay turbo mani., and a IC from like a saab. I'll use the radiator from a 92-95 civic. I want a turbo that would be nice in the range of 2k to about 6k. I wont be revving over 6500 on this motor. Should my 2.5 piping and 2.5 cat be sufficient at low boost until i can get a 3' welded up?
Civicdude...whats ur opinion. I know u own a D-series but im curious on what ur setup is and what u think.
P.S..
all the information posted above is Just my opinion. Everything stated is (IMO). This is a message board and that is what it is used for..everyone is entitle to their OWN opinion. Please no flaming from you vtec guys.

the rex i ran 25lbs with was 2 1/2" exhaust.. no cat tho it was straight out the back.. i think the 2 1/2" was plenty.

i could do 99% of the work for a built LSvtec in my garage. sending the crank/rods/pistons out to get balanced would be the only thing i can't do on my own :naughty:

BUT.. this is a budget car, the fast one (Teh V8) is built enough and has enough money sunk into it. this is my budget daily driver.. the LS pulls nicely but i was looking for a relatively inexpensive mod.. i think i'm going to just turbo it.

I have another project in the works for LSvtec tho.. I just have to keep my eyes open for the right car to put it in. I'm going to make a Bseries to GM adaptor plate and mount a powerglide to an LS block.. LSvtec turbo that for a RWD drag car.. probably a rex but maybe just maybe i'll find an inexpensive del sol :evillol:

BTW...
I'm curious on everyone's opinion on what would be a decent setup on a B20b...
thinking a tuned s-afc, some DSM 450's, an ebay turbo mani., and a IC from like a saab. I'll use the radiator from a 92-95 civic. I want a turbo that would be nice in the range of 2k to about 6k. I wont be revving over 6500 on this motor. Should my 2.5 piping and 2.5 cat be sufficient at low boost until i can get a 3' welded up?
Civicdude...whats ur opinion. I know u own a D-series but im curious on what ur setup is and what u think.

for a b20 only revving to 6500, i would suggest a T3 Super 60. .60 AR compressor/.48 AR turbine. with that particular combination, you're going to reach full spool very quickly (2500-3000 rpm estimated) and hold it all the way to 6500 with the 60 AR compressor. A larger turbine would raise your spool and shift your powerband beyond your rev range.

your 2.5" pipe should suffice, as long as you know that 3" will make more power. the rest of your setup sounds good.

I've heard a lot of rumors that the B20 blocks have weak sleeves and blah blah blah, but i doubt they are weaker than d series sleeves which can hold 20psi easily.

My thoughts on the AFC hack:
(i wrote a big ass reply on this and for some reason it didnt save it so now im going to give only the abridged version. ifyou want more specific info, pm me)
The AFC hack, for those who dont know, is a method of using an AFC to accomplish 2 things: control the flow of larger fuel injectors allowing the car to idle, and "bypassing" the need for a missing link or check valves to bleed off boost from your MAP sensor, which will throw a check engine light when the ECU senses the map sensor is outputting over 1.3psi, or roughly 3 volts. The stock map sensor can actually read up to 10-11 psi, but its the ECU that freaks out. The AFC accomplishes this task by scaling the voltage of the map sensor down, keeping the peak voltage output below the threshold of check engine light. You accomplish this by subtracting -35% to -40% from the AFC's fuel mapping, thus the need for larger injectors.

The problem with the AFC hack:
As you know, timing retard is crucial on forced inducted engines, especially hondas which werent' made for boost. One problem with the AFC hack (due to how it works) is that it is reading from a different part of the fuel and ignition table than the car is actually running at. As a byproduct of scaling the map sensor, you lose resolution in the table (the amount of tuning points). This means that under low boost, you are reading from the lower left hand corner of the ignition table which is very advanced. LOW BOOST + AFC HACK = VERY ADVANCED TIMING = VERY BAD to counteract this, you need to run as much boost as the stock honda map sensor will allow, which will let you use more of the ignition and fuel tables.

my advice: run 7-10psi on very conservative AFC settings. retard your ignition timing 4-8 degrees at the distributor. enjoy boost.

P.S. - FYI, i believe that an LS VTEC (stock block) can be built with about the same amount of money it takes to build a turbo kit, and they will reflect that amount of money you spent. This said, would you rather have 160hp or 220hp for the same price?

I know which one i would choose. boost baby.