why i was gone...

though im sure i wasnt missed for the week i didnt post, the reason i was gone is of (i feel) concern to the members of this forum.

i was attending the national ACLU membership conference in san francisco. it was a very eye opening experiance.

i am new to the ACLU (i joined just a few months ago) but not to what they do. having done many research projects i was familiar with their work, and their stances.

however, i was not aware of the extent to which this administration is in violation of our bill of rights. i mean, i knew the basics: suspension of habeus corpus, right to council, trial, etc. and the ability and tendancy to search without cause or warrent our possessions, not to mention gay marriage and abortion but that was just the tip of the iceberg.

our administration is seeking to pass admendments to the constituion that would greatly limit our freedoms of speech and expression, such as making the burning of the flag a felony.

also, our administration is making huge efforts to not only fund religion with tax payer dollars, but to endorse it nationally. take for instance the faith based initiatives (which i had heard about but never really looked into) which seeks to give money to religious organizations that provide a civil service (but not to secular organizations mind you)

they also seek to inforce so called "free speech zones" at presidential rallies, political protests and on college campuses. excuse me mr ashcroft but i live in a free speech zone...its called america

its time, i believe, for every citizen of america to seriously consider whether or not we want to continue to live under an administration that feels no qualms in limiting our very basic freedoms of speech, press, association, religion, and expression. regardless of whether or not kerry or bush wins the upcoming election, we need to demand that our administration stop its efforts to erode the very soul of this country.

thank you for listening/reading....whatever

Hopefully I'll be able to move out of the country before my right to do that is taken away.

Get up! Stand up! Stand up for your rights!!!
welcome back...I knew there was a reason the Political forum was slow :lol:

though im sure i wasnt missed for the week i didnt post, the reason i was gone is of (i feel) concern to the members of this forum.

i was attending the national ACLU membership conference in san francisco. it was a very eye opening experiance.

Goody! Some raging liberals to argue with! The local 'conservatives' are losing their entertainment value :icon16:

Something to keep in mind is that the ACLU is a liberal bastion, so their perspecitve comes from there.













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Something to keep in mind is that the ACLU is a liberal bastion, so their perspecitve comes from there.

lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.

-Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
-Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

Liberal just doesn't work on the extreme left, damnit! They're equally as dogmatic and crazy as their counterparts on the right. We need a new word!

In fact, I can't see 'conservative' fitting anyone who's in favor of the highest federal spending in history, combined with the biggest federal bureaucratic expansion in history, combined with the biggest deficits in history.

WE NEED NEW WORDS! Let's have a contest!

Anyway, the ACLU: They are a mite slippery on gun control, that's for sure. But then, anyone who protects the Constitution's a friend of mine, no matter how lunatic their politics are :biggrin:

ACLU is a communist front organization to socialize America. They are anti-religion, anti-captializm bastards.

ACLU is a communist front organization to socialize America. They are anti-religion, anti-captializm bastards.

That's quite an opinion you have there. Care to provide anything to back that outrageous claim up?

They are suing the county of LA to remove a cross from thier seal, somthing that hasnt bothered anyone before. They have also sued numerous others for the same thing. Helping that anti-pledge guy Michael Newdow from San Fransisco to get rid of the Pledge of Alegeance.

HOws it outrageous, its my opinion?

HOws it outrageous, its my opinion?

Well, a 'communist front organisation' is a pretty ridiculous claim,unless you have anything more than obnoxious slander to back it up with....

Anyone that lives in the USA, and has a friggin brain, that works correctly, knows the ACLU is just there to sue everyone for everything. Like I said, its my opinion, and I know for a fact Im not the only one that thinks that.

So you don't have any facts to back up your opinion?Your man George was of the opinion that Saddam was fair falling over the stockpiles of WMD...in fact he asserted that they had them sitting there ready to deploy at 45 minutes notice...

Of course,that was HIS opinion,and we all know what a dick he made of himself over that one........

Bush? I never even meantioned him. Again, a Bush basher without promting! That is awesome!
I was talking about the ACLU, instead, once again, you make it a personal attack against me, like I voted for the guy.
Look, I dont like the ACLU, I dont respect what they do, I dont like how they go about achieving thier goals. I dont like tomatos, cause they are slimy on the inside, (kinda like politicians on the outside) but who cares about that?
I dont like liberalism or socialism. I dont like chest hair, either. Are you going to debate me on those, and the political ramifications of my opinion? I kinda hope so.
If I really wanted to go look for stuff I disagree with the ACLU for, I would, but only two or three things pop into my head. I dont care about them, I try not to give them much thought. That is my opinion. And they are still socialists.

As far as things 'poping into my head' That leaves stuff open for some good personal attacks.

So you still don't have any facts to back your opinion?

OK,let's leave it at that before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.Have a nice day.

Why do i need facts, we both will never agree, at least on this? Once again, I care less what people think of me.

Liberal just doesn't work on the extreme left, damnit!

Come to Canada and take a look the left/right wing balance of our political parties. :2cents:

Why is it whacky?

Anyone that lives in the USA, and has a friggin brain, that works correctly, knows the ACLU is just there to sue everyone for everything. Like I said, its my opinion, and I know for a fact Im not the only one that thinks that.

Hey. Now, I disagree hard with the ACLU on gun rights. I think that's typical liberal lunacy, especially nowadays, when I'm sure even your average Democrat is starting to think that they maybe SHOULD pick up a weapon or two, 'fore the Rummystapo kick in their doors.

But those people are even more dedicated to preserving our Constitution than the NRA, who, I'm willing to admit, works (hard and well) to preserve only one amendment.

As for crosses and pledges of allegiance -- A) In our system, religion and government don't mix. That's how the Founding Fathers wanted it, and I trust their judgement. B) They want "under God" taken out of the Pledge, not to eliminate the Pledge entirely. 'sides, that whole "under God" bit got added in 1954, so it's not like they want to gut a centuries-old American tradition. This would make the Pledge constitution-friendly.

Left-leaning looneys they may be, and Constitutional nit-pickers when they're bored, but they'll fight anyone who'd tread on our constitutional rights, and that makes 'em patriots in my eyes.

That's quite an opinion you have there. Care to provide anything to back that outrageous claim up?
How about it's fucking true?


They are anti-God, anti-traditional family, pro-reverse racism, and a dan communist organization that has no morals, religous or traditional, and is working against what America has long been made of and still needs to be.

Keep going to those meetings and destroying your brain, fine with me.

If I really wanted to go look for stuff I disagree with the ACLU for, I would, but only two or three things pop into my head. I dont care about them, I try not to give them much thought. That is my opinion. And they are still socialists.


and yet you argue with us about it. i think that is giving it a lot of thought.


How about it's fucking true?


They are anti-God, anti-traditional family, pro-reverse racism, and a dan communist organization that has no morals, religous or traditional, and is working against what America has long been made of and still needs to be.

Keep going to those meetings and destroying your brain, fine with me.


i would like to see some proof.

Hopefully I'll be able to move out of the country before my right to do that is taken away.

Yeah hopefully.

Hopefully I'll be able to move out of the country before my right to do that is taken away.

Yeah hopefully.

:spit:


:rofl:













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The ACLU brought out the "gestapo" in my State's capitol city, I'm glad they did - that the police were obtaining information they aren't allowed to have and keeping "secret" files on people seems to be more communist than anything the ACLU has done. Not that I agree with the ACLU on everything (Though I admit I've never done research on them, and am making this assumption on stories where the ACLU has been mentioned and it does seem like they want to sue everybody for everything) I have to admit, they at least did some good work here.

Anyone that agrees with the ACLU should pack thier bags, and move to China. Thats thier goal. Live there where no one has rights, just like the ACLU mission statement wants.

Anyone that agrees with the ACLU should pack thier bags, and move to China. Thats thier goal. Live there where no one has rights, just like the ACLU mission statement wants.

You really don't understand 'constitutional rights',do you?

Constitution? I understand it. But the ACLU wants to make it 'perfect for everyone' Thats communism.

okay...hope you understand 'constitution, a little better than you understand 'communism'.

Anti-religion, judge yourelf!
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLibertylist.cfm?c=139


I guess its ok to have as many children as you want knowing the state will pay to raise them.
http://www.aclu.org/PoorRights/PoorRightsmain.cfm

Constitution? I understand it. But the ACLU wants to make it 'perfect for everyone' Thats communism.

:rofl: Still believing the old propaganda?

Anti-religion, judge yourelf!
http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLibertylist.cfm?c=139




No, not anti-religion, they are anti-Christian. They have no problems with Muslims or Hindus. In fact, they despise the very idea of Christianity and are the Muslim's best friend. They hate Christians to the point of persecution.

Left-leaning looneys they may be, and Constitutional nit-pickers when they're bored, but they'll fight anyone who'd tread on our constitutional rights, and that makes 'em patriots in my eyes.

Absolutely correct.
The enemies of the ACLU don't realise the Constitution is no better than toilet paper if people do not take the steps to defend it. The ACLU does defend it, (dispite how you may feel about their politics). The current Whitehouse administration is destroying it. There has been ample evidence to this process within this thread alone.

I admire and respect that. I have no respect for those people who do not have the ability to keep an open mind (you know who you are) on such an important issue.

Now, for all those who dislike the ACLU, look at their mission statement.
How can you possibly describe yourselves as patriotic Americans and NOT agree with this:

The ACLU is our nation’s guardian of liberty. We work daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to every person in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States. Our job is to conserve America’s original civic values - the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles:

that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives;


that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.
Majority power is limited by the Constitution’s Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth) and the Nineteenth Amendment (women’s suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

If the rights of society’s most vulnerable members are denied, everybody’s rights are imperiled.

Now, for all those who dislike the ACLU, look at their mission statement.

I perfer to look at the actions of the ACLU instead of words written by the ACLU. Face it the can write whatever they want for a mission statement but its actions is what you judge them by.

I posted 2 links on the ACLU web site yet you have no comments on them!

Actions mean more than words.

Actions mean more than words.
In which case, they're getting more done than our president! :) (ha.)

I perfer to look at the actions of the ACLU instead of words written by the ACLU. Face it the can write whatever they want for a mission statement but its actions is what you judge them by.

I posted 2 links on the ACLU web site yet you have no comments on them!

I didn't comment on anything because all their efforts seem fine to me. I can see why a religious person might not like them, but they are fighting people who would like to turn the US into a Christian version of Iran, (in that the US would become a theocracy. )

Here's my comment: I looked through their efforts and decisions, at least on their site and (surprise) I agree with them.
Lets see.....defending the right to have an individual student print a religious quotation in a yearbook........keeping bibles and preaching OUT of schools.......ongoing efforts to keep religion out of the government.......it seems fine to me so far.

Tell you what, Flat. You post some campain from the ACLU that you don't like ( I am sure there are many) and lets discuss that.
I am being serious and not sarcastic. Let me know of a decision they have won that is bad, and why you think it is so.

Welfare laws and practices have often violated the rights of the poor, especially poor women and their children. The federal welfare reform law passed in 1996 is no exception. Under the law, states can deny welfare to any child born into a family already receiving welfare.


I have a problem with this. Welfare is funded thru my taxpayer dollars, my taxes pay to feed and clothe these families yet they continue having more children without having a job just to increase the amount of their state check without doing a lick of work to earn that money. I have 3 kids no one gives me one dime to raise my kids why should we be forced to pay for more kids just because they are too cheap to afford a condom yet they drive around in brand new cars wearing brand name clothes while my kids wear Wal-Mart clothes. I pay 280 dolars a month for health care, every week I pay out at least 300 dollars in taxes and fees.

I'll give you an example. I know this woman she is un-married with her boyfriend living with her who is working. Just had a baby she has 3 kids and is only 22 years old. Lives in section 8 housing, getting welfare, WIC,kids wear designer clothes, free health care, etc. They eat better than I do, the kids have the latest toys including a Playstation 2. I say put them to work make them clean the streets and earn the money they are given. Their should be no such thing as a free lunch, they need to earn their keep.

We'll start with this for now.

Welfare laws and practices have often violated the rights of the poor, especially poor women and their children. The federal welfare reform law passed in 1996 is no exception. Under the law, states can deny welfare to any child born into a family already receiving welfare.


I have a problem with this. Welfare is funded thru my taxpayer dollars, my taxes pay to feed and clothe these families yet they continue having more children without having a job just to increase the amount of their state check without doing a lick of work to earn that money. I have 3 kids no one gives me one dime to raise my kids why should we be forced to pay for more kids just because they are too cheap to afford a condom yet they drive around in brand new cars wearing brand name clothes while my kids wear Wal-Mart clothes. I pay 280 dolars a month for health care, every week I pay out at least 300 dollars in taxes and fees.

I'll give you an example. I know this woman she is un-married with her boyfriend living with her who is working. Just had a baby she has 3 kids and is only 22 years old. Lives in section 8 housing, getting welfare, WIC,kids wear designer clothes, free health care, etc. They eat better than I do, the kids have the latest toys including a Playstation 2. I say put them to work make them clean the streets and earn the money they are given. Their should be no such thing as a free lunch, they need to earn their keep.

We'll start with this for now.

In a round about way others help pay for your kids. My property taxes fund public education. I do not get a deduction on my income tax for kids (or a shit load of other social engineering tax breaks).

I’ll be the first to stand up and say that raising kids is not inexpensive. Quite to the contrary, it’s the biggest expense you’ll ever have. However, it was also a choice.

Aside from that, I agree with you about the public trough. For those who don’t know I’ve worked on HUD related programs for about elevn years now (section 8 that you mentioned, low income, new construction, section 202, Indian housing among others) and know first hand that a large portion of those getting assistance are lazy, unmotivated and feel entitled to the money and cheap rent they get.













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In a round about way others help pay for your kids. My property taxes fund public education. I do not get a deduction on my income tax for kids (or a shit load of other social engineering tax breaks).


I agree with you but at least I am also paying my share of taxes. I was talking about those who don't pay into the system just collect from it.

I dislike any welfare free loader as much as anyone else. If someone is abusing the welfare system, cut them off.
However, this argument, as a criticism of the ACLU is groundless. The ACLU statement is very vague and can be interpreted in many ways. It does not state the ACLU defends welfare cheaters.

Surely, there must be a specific case or judgement that the ACLU has won that you disagree with.
It can be on any subject or in any court.
Please, come up with one. The ACLU wins cases daily. All their victories I have come across. I have agreed with.

Its a good thing that the ACLU doesn't win most the cases that I think they shouldn't have taken.

But there are pleanty to chose from. These are just at the Supreme Court Level

The "We Meant It, but We Didn’t Mean It" Case
The "Pornography in the Library" Case
The "No Scholarships for Students of Religion" Case













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