Discuss amongst yourselves

Agree or disagree with the following?

What isn't remembered, never happened. Memory is just a record, all you have to do is rewrite that record.

I agree especially if I'm in trouble. My wife however, disagrees totally.

Absolutely agree. Memory is nothing but chemical and electrical input. Imagine if every night we went to sleep, our memory was erased. And every morning we woke up, we just came up with a plausable explanation as to how we got where we are and everything that happened before.

MDM style y0' (Matrix Domestic Market) :icon16:

. Imagine if every night we went to sleep, our memory was erased. And every morning we woke up, we just came up with a plausable explanation as to how we got where we are and everything that happened before.



Sounds like the movie 50 first dates.

I was thinking it was a reverse Ground Hogs Day

But why do people with brain damage still have a criminal past and tax bills from pre-memory loss days? I disagree, this seems like something dreamed up by somebody on the computer when he thought to himself.."when I erase something from my hard drive it is gone...I wonder if life is the same way"

But why do people with brain damage still have a criminal past and tax bills from pre-memory loss days? I disagree, this seems like something dreamed up by somebody on the computer when he thought to himself.."when I erase something from my hard drive it is gone...I wonder if life is the same way"
Exactly.. what about home videos and photos? We have records of our existance besides just our memory. Theory - debunked.

But you all are thinking if ONE person forgets something. I'm talking about the whole world. If an event were to be forgotten, all evidence destroyed... would it exist? No, because things like that have happened, and we have no fucking clue cuz no one remembers it.

yes i agree that things forgotten have never happened. there are alot of things that happened that way. also certain things like the communists and nazis did like rip pages out of all books that had to do w/ a certain topic. some ppl had no idea that any of it happened for another 40 years. i recently just found out last year, this sort of goes with what you are saying, that stalin had actually started another holocaust russian style, but luckily he died before he carried out his plan to its full effect. there would have been no way to stop him. so i agree very much with the original topic

Things forgotten have never happened. If no one remembers it happening than how is there a way to prove that it happened?

Memory sucks. Trust evidence.

Anyone for 'memory loss means it never happens' still isn't making their point clear. Lets say I hide a phone in my glove compartment, and no one else knows it but me. The next day I get amnesia and forget about the phone. Did I still put the phone there? Of course, I'll find it eventually so therefore it existed despite the fact I did not remember putting it there and no one else saw me do it.

I realize you mean no evidence.. and the phone was evidence.. but I'm proving that actions can exist without memory of them. Proof or not.. things do take place despite our memory.

No, YOU don't get it. If you don't remember it and the most plausible explanation determined by brain chemistry of you and your partner is that your partner put it there, and that's what you noth remember and beleive - who's right or wrong?

No, YOU don't get it. If you don't remember it and the most plausible explanation determined by brain chemistry of you and your partner is that your partner put it there, and that's what you noth remember and beleive - who's right or wrong?
Obviously you still don't understand. It doesn't matter WHO did it, the point is it happened. The phone was moved from one spot to the other, it happened. Just because we don't have any recollection of who did it or why doesn't it mean it didn't occur.

i agree with everio11 100% no matter what the fact that it still happened whether we remeber or know about it it DID in fact happen

But if everyone beleives it and it makes sense and it can't be disproved - is it wrong? You are both still not thinking in the right way.

But if everyone beleives it and it makes sense and it can't be disproved - is it wrong? You are both still not thinking in the right way.
That.. has nothing to do with the original question. I agree with that, just because its the general concensus doesn't mean its correct. But what does that have to do with something existing or not?

But if everyone beleives it and it makes sense and it can't be disproved - is it wrong? You are both still not thinking in the right way.


Isn't that like saying a lie becomes truth if everyone believes it ?

Isn't that like saying a lie becomes truth if everyone believes it ?
Could be. What if you told a lie, then did what you lied about and redefined time :D

Now some of you are starting to think laterally enough.

Then wouldn't a belief become truth if everyone believed it to be true?

Then wouldn't a belief become truth if everyone believed it to be true?

thats how religion came about. no one can actually prove it right or wrong. there is a way to say this happened and theres no way this happened. i guess in this dimension we will never truly know. and sorry i didnt mean to get involved w/ anything religious, just giving an example

But if everyone beleives it and it makes sense and it can't be disproved - is it wrong? You are both still not thinking in the right way.

Wrong things are wrong whether or not people realize it. At some point "everyone" believed the earth was flat. It was eventually disproved...but you are saying that for hundreds of years the world existed flat because everyone believed it to be.

Along the same lines, a human rights violation is a human rights violation, whether or not it is socially accepted as "ok".

Wrong things are wrong whether or not people realize it. At some point "everyone" believed the earth was flat. It was eventually disproved...but you are saying that for hundreds of years the world existed flat because everyone believed it to be.

".

Well, there goes the arguement I was setting him up for.

I have to try and not be so obvious on the direction I'm heading next time. :)

Good job Boingo. I agree with that whole statement.

thats how religion came about. no one can actually prove it right or wrong. there is a way to say this happened and theres no way this happened. i guess in this dimension we will never truly know. and sorry i didnt mean to get involved w/ anything religious, just giving an example

Actually I believe that "religion" (or beliefe in God) came about because of contact with God by individuals.

But I agree. We don't need to get into that on this thread.

But if everyone beleives it and it makes sense and it can't be disproved - is it wrong? You are both still not thinking in the right way.

If it can be disproved does that mean that it can't be proved either? B/c agreeing with the others here...That is religion. You cant say yes this definately happened or no this definately did not happen. I believe that the original question was "What isn't remembered, never happened. Memory is just a record, all you have to do is rewrite that record." I partially agree and disagree with that statement. I can sit here and tell you that I remember what I had for dinner last night but then I can sit here and not remember what I did last night (little too much to drink) and for all I know I could have had a huge orgy and ended up passing out alone on the beach. But I don't know that. So to me, it never happened until someone has a memory, proof of it happening and then to me, it has happened. What isnt remembered never happened in the way that my mind thinks about it.

This probably makes so logical sense so argue if you must but if you dont understand....just keep reading. Thank you!

Agree or disagree with the following?

What isn't remembered, never happened. Memory is just a record, all you have to do is rewrite that record.


Let's put this another way..
You go up into the woods, and stumble upon the cabin of a hermit. He lives on his own and nobody knows he's there. You kill him, bury the body, and on the way back out you trip, and smack your head on a rock. You wake up with a concussion and no recollection of the murder. Is the hermit still dead? Is there still a body in the ground? Yes.

Let's put this another way..
You go up into the woods, and stumble upon the cabin of a hermit. He lives on his own and nobody knows he's there. You kill him, bury the body, and on the way back out you trip, and smack your head on a rock. You wake up with a concussion and no recollection of the murder. Is the hermit still dead? Is there still a body in the ground? Yes.

hmmm...not what I was trying to say but I do see your point. In giving this more thought though, I do think that it depends on what we're talking about. ya know?

...So to me, it never happened until someone has a memory, proof of it happening and then to me, it has happened. What isnt remembered never happened in the way that my mind thinks about it..

OK...so if a guy slips GHB into a girl's drink at a party, and rapes her, leaving her clothed and in a bedroom, then later that night od's on ecstacy and dies, and nobody knew about the rape but him, did she still get raped? He used a condom that got flushed so there is no evidence...is it still rape?

OK...so if a guy slips GHB into a girl's drink at a party, and rapes her, leaving her clothed and in a bedroom, then later that night od's on ecstacy and dies, and nobody knew about the rape but him, did she still get raped? He used a condom that got flushed so there is no evidence...is it still rape?

that's not what i mean. I know what i mean but it's difficult to explain i guess. I mean, i'm agreeing with you, not trying to argue really. I mean, things that one person does. If I act on my own and I dont remember it then it didn't happen. If it effect's no one else and is so trivial that it doesn't matter that i remember than it never happened...If I don't make sense, let me know and I will stop.

Ok, I have a question, so you kill the hermit, burry the body, and get the concussion and forget... but somehow the body isn't there, then did it happen?
If some superpowerful Alien force erased today from everyone's [the entire human population] memory and reversed any permanent effects of that day, then did it happen... yes and know, depending on what you belive.

yes it still happened no question it happened. you still said that aliens interferred and erased our minds that doesnt mean it never happened.

Ok, I have a question, so you kill the hermit, burry the body, and get the concussion and forget... but somehow the body isn't there, then did it happen?
If some superpowerful Alien force erased today from everyone's [the entire human population] memory and reversed any permanent effects of that day, then did it happen... yes and know, depending on what you belive.

Explain what happened to the body, then we'll talk.

Yes and "know". LOL.. :grinno:

Yes and "know". LOL.. :grinno:

haha its ok we have all made mistakes like that before.

what I was getting at, if the day is completely erased from our memories and from the world (all effects of this day are reverted) The world wakes up wednesday, and everything is how they left it monday night. Did it happen, well, there is no way to proove it, so it is really up to you to decide

So if you killed the hermit and forgot you did it...does it really matter that the hermit is dead?
Or that the girl was raped?...what you are really talking about is erasing your conscience not your memory...if no one has a memory about the incident then no one would care about the hermit...Did it happen?
Yes it happened...just because you got a concussion and you forgot that you did it doesn't erase the fact that "matter" ceases to exist the DNA still points to the crime....
....and on a lighter note if I'm guessing right the Alien story won't work and the cops might be at your door any day now.......(Ha Ha)

what I was getting at, if the day is completely erased from our memories and from the world (all effects of this day are reverted) The world wakes up wednesday, and everything is how they left it monday night. Did it happen, well, there is no way to proove it, so it is really up to you to decide
Until you can make up a scenario where that could possibly happen, I am not considering this. I made up a scenario where MY case was proven, you ought to do the same.
Otherwise I'm not responding to this "Well if Aliens attacked and somehow 4=7 and somehow everything reverted and the sun enveloped the earth.." bs. If you can't even fabricate an imaginary scenario where your idea (all evidence being erased) then it's not worth thinking about.

Obviously this is all hypothetical anyway... I don't understand your comments toward me... I am a very deep philosophical thinker and thought poeple would enjoy stretching their brains... my scenario boils down to a philosophical argument, it all depends on what side of the fence you are on.

You know what, go read the book "Timequake" by Kurt Vonnegut.

Study: False Memories Easily Implanted
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, February 17, 2003

[About new Elisabeth Loftus' research]

DENVER (AP) -- Remember that wonderful day when Bugs Bunny hugged you at Disneyland? A new study shows just how easy it can be to induce false memories in the minds of some people.

More than a third of subjects in the study, presented Sunday, recalled that theme-park moment -- impossible because Bugs is not a Disney character -- after a researcher planted the false memory.

Other research, of people who believed they were abducted by space aliens, shows that even false memories can be as intensely felt as those of real-life victims of war and other violence.

The research demonstrates that police interrogators and people investigating sexual-abuse allegations must be careful not to plant suggestions into their subjects, said University of California-Irvine psychologist Elizabeth Loftus. She presented preliminary results of recent false memory experiments Sunday at the national meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Loftus said some people may be so suggestible that they could be convinced they were responsible for crimes they didn't commit. In interrogations, "much of what goes on -- unwittingly -- is contamination,'' she said.

The news media's power of suggestion also can leave a false impression, Loftus said.

"During the Washington sniper attacks, everyone reported seeing a white van,'' she said. "Where did it come from? The whole country was seeing white vans.''

Loftus is one of the country's most controversial memory researchers. She frequently draws harsh criticism from victims' advocates, attorneys and other scientists.

Over 25 years, she has examined more than 20,000 subjects and written 19 books. She appears frequently in court as an expert witness.

While some recovered memories turn out to be true, Loftus says her experiments repeatedly show that memories are fragile possessions that are easily manipulated. But she does not condemn her subjects for being gullible.

Of adopting false memories, she said: "This behavior is entirely normal.''

A key, researchers said, is to add elements of touch, taste, sound and smell to the story.

In the Bugs Bunny study, Loftus talked with subjects about their childhoods and asked not only whether they saw someone dressed up as the character, but also whether they hugged his furry body and stroked his velvety ears. In subsequent interviews, 36 percent of the subjects recalled the cartoon rabbit.

In another study, Loftus suggested frog-kissing incidents that 15 percent of the group later recalled.

"It is sensory details that people use to distinguish their memories,'' said Loftus. "If you imbue the story with them, you'll disrupt this memory process. It's almost a recipe to get people to remember things that aren't true.''

In other research presented Sunday, Harvard University psychologist Richard McNally tested 10 people who said they had been abducted, physically examined and sexually molested by space aliens.

Researchers tape-recorded the subjects talking about their memories. When the recordings were played back later, the purported abductees perspired and their heart rates jumped.

McNally said three of the 10 subjects showed physical reactions "at least as great'' as people suffering post traumatic stress disorder from war, crime, rape and other violent incidents.

"This underscores the power of emotional belief,'' McNally said.

:So would this mean that you were told that you had forgotten...but really didn't...only lead to believe that you had forgotten?:

PRAVDA.R U
Translated into english by: Andrey Nesterov
03/06/2004 16:37
Men With No Memory (http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/12223_memory.html)

American writer Alfred Bester in his novel "Man with no face" describes future when mankind became merciful enough to abolish prisons and death penalty.

People of future take away the criminal"s memory, and in this way the personality which committed the crime is wiped out. Such a person has to live anew, with no past. The writer could hardly imagine that his fantasies would be implemented in Russia even before the beginning of the third millennium.

On June 5, 2000 "Vzglyad" (Outlook) TV program broadcast sensational news: in Kaluga region four people with no memories of their past, had been found. These people could not remember anything: their names, relatives, places of residency or work.

One of them was "in luck": after the TV program broadcast, his wife and mother identified him. But after returning to his family, this man could remember nothing. He recognized nobody.

Another man with lost memory hardly avoided death: he was walking along the railroad while the train was approaching. New life for this man started in the police station in the city of Novosibirsk. He had neither personal belongings nor ID. 썷ever, people with no memory did not lose professional skills. "Sergey" (this name was given to him by doctors) said to a local newspaper reporter that he could do computer programmer"s work and develop software in any language, he also had proficiency in English. The man said he did not know the city of Novosibirsk and had no idea how he had arrived in the city. Psychiatrists said that in all other parameters Sergey"s health was perfect.

Another man started his new life on the bench in the park of city Kharkov, Ukraine. He had no ID. Ukrainian police said that "Ivan" (the name the policemen gave to the man) arrived in Kharkov by Moscow-Crimea train. The man did not speak the Ukrainian language, and had a 100-rouble bill in his pocket. Because of this, the policemen decided he was Russian. He could not answer the questions where he was from and what his name was. Ukrainian policemen decided to send Ivan to Moscow.

The chief of the hospital where Ivan was having medical examination, discovered that the man knew computers very well. The hospital chief"s friend, a computer programmer, said that Ivan knew computers much better than he did. Moreover, it was discovered that Ivan had been working in Germany for some time. Unfortunately, the police had no interest to the man after handing him to doctors, and hospital chief"s friend told the local TV reporter about the man. The reporter showed Ivan in a TV program. Two days later Ivan disappeared.


Real Life Matrix? http://www.angelfire.com/or/mctrl/policestatemind.html

I was thinking it was a reverse Ground Hogs Day
That's one of my favorite movies, I'm still looking for it on dvd.

I remember everything. I use my memory as a reminder. Experience. Positive & Neg events.
Though, remembering some things really sucks, but it is just that of a memory.

Survived, moved on to better upcoming memories, hopefully...