b18b vs b16a

i want to go turbo a friend of mine has a almost built b18b1 ls motor

it has crower cams/ vavles/springs/retainers and port and polished head all i need to do is build the botome end... then i want to go turbo on it also has a stage 3 clutch and a 12 lbs lightned flywheel

rite now i have a b16a stock just i/h/e


wich is better for now and wich is better when i go turbo!!!!

Get the LS, sell the cams, etc or the head as one piece, swap on a VTEC head and then turbo it.

so are you buying your friends motor? it seems like it since you're building his motor up for him.

def go with the b18b. The b18b can handle more psi of boost, and makes alot more power when boosted than the b16a will. Lets put it this way. Stock vs stock. the b16a and the b18b are about Itenicle in the 1/4. The b16 has more hp, but less torque, and the ls has a super bottom end. Here is another comparison. the gsr motor b18c1 can handle 8 pounds of boost (more if tuned really well), and will put out about 250 whp with that, and like 180 lb of torque. The ls stock can boost safely to 12 psi (again more if tuned really well), which is close to around the 300whp mark, with well over 200 lb of torque. at 10 psi the ls makes 250 whp, so boosted to 12 it would make probably 280-290whp. Now the gsr makes more hp, and torque at 8 psi, than the b16a does, thus with the b16a you will not be making anywhere near as much power as you would with the b18b. The b18b is the best stock honda motor to boost. If you are going to be changing pistons and rods, then the b18c1 is a better platform to work from, but since it is between the b18b, and the b16a, then def go with the b18b. Especially since it already has alot done to it. And like mentoned above, you could always make the ls into a ls/vtec by taking the b16 head from your motor if you aren't planning on selling it, then throwing it on the ls bottome and then boosting, but I would say stay with the ls head since it is built! Good luck

ok my mind is set now... im gonna take the b18b

with the mods the b18b has rite now will it pull harder than my b16a with i/h/e

do not listen to that guy, he is dumb and doesnt know what hes talking about.

the ls wont make more power when boosted the same, the b16 will and the ls wont handle more boost. and you think you can boost a ls to 12psi and more if you tune it really well, wtf is that. anything above 8psi on any b series needs to be tuned really well, i would say any boost at all needs to be tuned well.

the safe hp on any b series, maybe not the b20s but for b18's, b16 the limit is 300hp. now there are people going past that and pushing the barrier but for now they say 300hp is the limit. it just needs to be tuned really well

as for which is better for boost, both engines are the same so just take your pick, which ever oen you like better.

just remember dont listen to that dumbass. the only thing he is right about is that the b18c is a better engine to start with. and the ls vtec

Hey dip shit. I didn't say when boosted the same. And stock ls's can easily handle 12 psi of boost. Like mentioned above a b18c1 with 8 psi makes 250whp. and an ls boosted to 10psi (ya 10, not 8) makes about 240 whp, but much more torque, so when boosted to 12 psi you will be making more like 270-280whp range. This is on completely stock block with a turbo kit, not even a custom one. And those numbers are with the b18c1 not the b16a which will make less power. And even b18c1's can be boosted higher if tuned right. There is a guy on here JCRX who showed me a dyno chart of a stock gsr boosted to 10 psi making 300+whp. I will find you the dino charts if you don't believe me. I didn't put out those munbers becasue I thought it would look cool

Originally Posted by Jeff@Import BUilders
Then we got another one on a comepletely stock GSR longblock with over 100k miles on it boosting 10 PSI making 330+ WHP with our turbo kit on it, running 11's.

If I could figre out how to post pics, I will show you a dyno chart of a stock gsr motor boosting 10 psi with a max power of 300 whp. So don't tell me you can't run more than 8 psi on any b series motor. And remember the ls can handle more boost than the b18c1 due to the lower compression pistons. I have seen many ls's boosted to 12 psi easy, with a good tune. You are right it is always wise to have a good tune with a turbo set up, but you can easily run 12 psi on stock ls, and with really good tuning higher.

you said if a ls and b16 are boosted the same, the ls will make more power. no it wont, the b16 will make more power. you said hte ls will make alot more power then the b16 when boosted, oh yeah if you run more boost on the ls then that is true but same boost the b16 will make more hp so your statement is not equal in a sense that you gotta run more boost in the ls to match the power of a b16.

and i didnt say you couldnt boost a honda motor more then 8, i said if you plan on boosting more then 8 you better get it tuned good. the amount a motor will handle does have to do with how much psi but its more about hp. thats why i said b series can be run to 300hp.

you see what i was getting at was that you said an ls will easily handle 12psi and more if tuned right. thats not true you gotta tune it real good before 12, you should start to tune it good after 8psi not 12 and then tune after that.

you see, i do believe that a b18c could make 300+whp on 10psi, what i dont agree with is what you said, oh gotta start tuning after 12psi and taht a ls will make more power then a b16, you gotta start tuning before 12psi and the b16 will make more power

and no the ls wont handle more boost due to cr, because of the higher cr you will reach the stock block limit sooner, also reach the limits of pump gas sooner. you can runa gsr at 10psi and you can run a ls at 10psi. you could also run a gsr at 12psi and run a ls at 12psi, it all just needs to be tuned right, and at the same boost level the hp goes in this rank, gsr highest, b16 next, and ls lowest. again i didnt say that it cant be boosted more then 8psi, plz read what i wrote again.

you said if a ls and b16 are boosted the same, the ls will make more power. no it wont, the b16 will make more power. you said hte ls will make alot more power then the b16 when boosted, oh yeah if you run more boost on the ls then that is true but same boost the b16 will make more hp so your statement is not equal in a sense that you gotta run more boost in the ls to match the power of a b16.

and i didnt say you couldnt boost a honda motor more then 8, i said if you plan on boosting more then 8 you better get it tuned good. the amount a motor will handle does have to do with how much psi but its more about hp. thats why i said b series can be run to 300hp.

you see what i was getting at was that you said an ls will easily handle 12psi and more if tuned right. thats not true you gotta tune it real good before 12, you should start to tune it good after 8psi not 12 and then tune after that.

you see, i do believe that a b18c could make 300+whp on 10psi, what i dont agree with is what you said, oh gotta start tuning after 12psi and taht a ls will make more power then a b16, you gotta start tuning before 12psi and the b16 will make more power

and no the ls wont handle more boost due to cr, because of the higher cr you will reach the stock block limit sooner, also reach the limits of pump gas sooner. you can runa gsr at 10psi and you can run a ls at 10psi. you could also run a gsr at 12psi and run a ls at 12psi, it all just needs to be tuned right, and at the same boost level the hp goes in this rank, gsr highest, b16 next, and ls lowest. again i didnt say that it cant be boosted more then 8psi, plz read what i wrote again.

Dude you really got to read my posts again. I never said at the same psi the ls will make more power, becasue that is not true, I said a ls boosted at 10psi is about the same as a gsr boosted at 8 psi. The gsr would make about 10more hp, but about 20 less torque at those psi (well depending on the turbo set up, but with a kit turbo like rev hard). And on that last paragraph you are 100 % wrong. Why do you think when you replace pistons and rods when you build the bottom of a gsr for boost you lower the c/r......BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU ABLE TO RUN MORE BOOST! A gsr cannot run 12 psi unless you replace the headgasket with a thicker one to lower the compression ratio, and you get a oil pressure regulator, whereas you can run 12 easy on a stock ls, and 14 when tuned really really well. I know of many ls's boosted to 12 psi with minimal tuning that have been running good for the last 2 years! I have yet to see a gsr boosted to 12 psi wihout rods and pistons that lasted any legnth of time at all, or like I mentoned a new headgasket and a oil pressure regulator! So NO not every b series honda motor can handle the same amount of boost in stock form. Non of the vtec motors can handle as much as the ls for one reason...BECAUSE THEIR COMPRESSION IS HIGHER! It is true the higher compression you have in the motor the more power you will make per psi, but you cannot run as much boost becasue it puts more stress on on the rods, and you run the risk of detonation with the inconsistancies in pump gas! So I am sorry if you misunder stood anything I said, but you should really read things better before you go off calling me a dumbass!!!!!!!!! That is pretty dick! And I am sorry but you are very wrong about many things. Ask anyone on this forum who knows anything about turbos and they will tell you that in stock foum the ls can handle more boost than a b18c1, or a b16a, b18c5 due to thier higher compression ratios! That is a fact. I didn't just pull that out of my ass.

Non of the vtec motors can handle as much as the ls for one reason...BECAUSE THEIR COMPRESSION IS HIGHER! It is true the higher compression you have in the motor the more power you will make per psi, but you cannot run as much boost becasue it puts more stress on on the rods, and you run the risk of detonation with the inconsistancies in pump gas!
Problem is tuning is everything, and a vtec motor can make more power on less PSI than a non vtec. But big Hp numbers are for show, and to win dick swinging contest. I'd rather be able to get less hp to the ground than have my car jumping off a dyno, or better yet spinning through third with no traction.

http://www.importbuilders.com/turbosetup.html

Read here about some practicality, and usable power. Pay attention to where he talks about torque and hooking up, it's effects on racing, and drivability.

did you not say this in your first post ?

The b18b can handle more psi of boost, and makes alot more power when boosted than the b16a will

now correct me if i am wrong but that says a ls will make more power when boosted then a b16. am i wrong in the translation of that ?

your idea of boost pressure being the key factor is wrong, you look at hp numbers not psi numbers because you will reach hp limits before you reach boost limits. why do people lower their cr when they replace pistons, because they dont really know about tuning and hp figures. like when i buy pistons for my motor i am going to up hte stock ls compression probably to 9.5 or 10 because it will overall make more hp per psi. again not looking at psi more of hp. yes lowering hte compression will allow for more boost but like i said your focusing too much on psi level and not hp level which you should be looking at. why would you lower hte cr when you can make 300whp at 8psi or you can lower hte cr and make 300whp at 12psi. why would you do that ?

and there are alot of guys running 12psi on there stock gsr block, 12psi easy on an ls, i dont think so. if it was that easy then everybody would boost there ls to 12psi but not everyone does it. you see a ls at 12psi needs to be tuned really well, not 14, a ls above 8psi needs to be tuned really well. if you run 12psi in your untuned ls motor you will blow your motor.

again your thinking is off, you dont turbo a motor for psi, you turbo a motor for a hp number. you dont say oh yeah i want 15psi, you say i want 300hp. if you tune a gsr really well it can run just as much psi as an ls but on the gsr you will reach hp limits sooner so there is no need to go as high as a ls to reach a certain hp number. you have to get over psi and get more into hp numbers

did you not say this in your first post ?

The b18b can handle more psi of boost, and makes alot more power when boosted than the b16a will

now correct me if i am wrong but that says a ls will make more power when boosted then a b16. am i wrong in the translation of that ?

your idea of boost pressure being the key factor is wrong, you look at hp numbers not psi numbers because you will reach hp limits before you reach boost limits. why do people lower their cr when they replace pistons, because they dont really know about tuning and hp figures. like when i buy pistons for my motor i am going to up hte stock ls compression probably to 9.5 or 10 because it will overall make more hp per psi. again not looking at psi more of hp. yes lowering hte compression will allow for more boost but like i said your focusing too much on psi level and not hp level which you should be looking at. why would you lower hte cr when you can make 300whp at 8psi or you can lower hte cr and make 300whp at 12psi. why would you do that ?

and there are alot of guys running 12psi on there stock gsr block, 12psi easy on an ls, i dont think so. if it was that easy then everybody would boost there ls to 12psi but not everyone does it. you see a ls at 12psi needs to be tuned really well, not 14, a ls above 8psi needs to be tuned really well. if you run 12psi in your untuned ls motor you will blow your motor.

again your thinking is off, you dont turbo a motor for psi, you turbo a motor for a hp number. you dont say oh yeah i want 15psi, you say i want 300hp. if you tune a gsr really well it can run just as much psi as an ls but on the gsr you will reach hp limits sooner so there is no need to go as high as a ls to reach a certain hp number. you have to get over psi and get more into hp numbers


Yes I did say this. The ls can handle more pounds of boost than the gsr. I have already explainded that. And when I was saying the b18b makes alot more power I was referring to the ls at 12 psi and the b18c (becasue I don't have dyno sheets for the b16a) at 8psi...Which would not be at the same amount of boost! Like I mentoned I have some dyno sheets of a completely stock gsr motor at 8 psi on a kit turbo making 250 whp. (8 is pretty high for a gsr motor, and 10 is topps with everything stock on this particular kit) and I have a dyno sheet of a stock ls boosted to 10 psi makeing about 10 whp less, but about 20-25 lb of torque more! Now the ls can handle 12 pretty easy and I have buddies with this exact set up right now running great for around 2 years now! Tuning a gsr to 8 psi, and a ls to 12 is about the same amount of tuning for both... yes they do have to be tuned well. but not to extreme. Like I said above 8 on the gsr needs very very good tuning, and above 12 on the ls is the same. I am not saying below that you don't need tuning, it just doesn't need like a hella good tune, it can get away with a pretty good tune. As my friends ls's are just mildly tuned and running great. And yes I know it isn't psi that is the ultimate factor in how much power you are going to make....really the main issue is cfm! But I was giving this guy of general idea of what you will make at what psi on a kit turbo and stock block. And I know it is hp numbers you want to shoot for not a psi, because hp can be very different for different turbos and the same psi... again I was giving an example if kit turbos I have seen and have dyno sheets for and stating what they made at what psi. And one thing I neglected to mention is the ls block is a stronger block. It can handle more hp ( which means more psi as well) than the gsr block. It isn't much stronger, but it can handle more, and really it isn't that it makes that much more hp boosted, it makes alot more torque when boosted. And I am afraid you are wrong about the gsr being able to handle just as much psi as a ls block it just hits the hp limit faster. That my friend is false. If the gsr hits its hp limit at 10 psi, and the ls hits its limit at 12-14, and they are making the same hp at those numbers, then which one is running a higer psi.... The ls! All things being equal of course i.e. same turbo set up! ther is no way a gsr can run as much psi ultimatly as a ls block can. They may be able to reach close to the same power numbers, but the ls takes more psi to get there, and can handle more due to its lower compression ratio. You seem to have contradicted yourself from earlier. Earlier you said c/r has nothing to do with how many pounds of boost you can run, then just now you said,"yes if you lower the compression you can boost more." that is all I was saying. It is much more stable to have a c/r of 9.0:1 or 9.4:1, than to have a c/r of above 10:1, or 11:1. Yes you do make more hp per pound of boost if the compreession is higher, but it also becomes more unstable, and you run a higher risk of detonation. Again I will re-iderate, the ls make about the same power figures at 10 psi, as a gsr does at 8 psi on your average kit turbo (not custom) the ls handles 12 psi about as easy as a gsr handles 8 psi. Not saying it is way easy to boost to those, but they are equally as easy, and hard tuning wise. Ya you can squeeze more out of both, but with very very good tuning. In the end on a completely stock motor, the ls can make more power and alot more torque than the b16 can. We are talking sheer power here, not wheather or not it is better to have more power or not, but speeking just in terms of power, the b18b can make more on stock internals easier. Not to mention the long gearing of the ls is very boost friendly. I am not saying it is nessisarily a better motor, in fact I sold my ls and got a gsr. I think the gsr is a better platform to start from personally but, i know a stock ls boosted to 12 psi on a kit turbo, is going to take a stock gsr boosted to 8 psi on the same kit turbo, and ya you could always tune one more than the other, but with equal tuning that is what both of those can handle, and the gsr would be making about 250 whp, and the ls about 270+whp, with alot more torque. Basically what you are saying also true that they can both handle roughly the same amount of hp (though the ls can handle a bit more because it's block is a little stronger), but it takes alot more tuning to get the b16a there than it does the b18b. And need you forget the torque numbers. Really saying which makes more hp ultimatly is usless, becasue there will always be someone who can mega tune your car to find even more hp, but what I am saying is all things being equal as in about the same amount of tuning the b18b will make more power! I hope that clears up what I was getting at, I do understand what you are getting at and you make good points as well, but you are thinking in different terms than I am, and still need some things cleared up! I hope you understand what I was getting at now! In the future don't call someone a dumbass becasue you didn't understand what they ment by what they said, I do know what I am talking about.

I'm not even going to get into a bench dyno hp race on this one because it's usless. But such and such a motor on XXPSI dosn't mean jackshit. I can show you a stock B16A making 236whp on 7psi, and I can show you a stock LS making 195whp on 7psi, so what? Did it prove anything? No, there's more to it than XX:1 CR, at XXPSI is going to do this on that motor, it's called, and is all about tuning.

And this annoys me...

Not to mention the long gearing of the ls is very boost friendly
Maybe to make the motor more timid. No time, never, is a longer geared tranny, going to be better for acceleration, ever. Boosted, supercharged, N/A shorter gears are faster.

I wasn't meaning to say that the long gearing is better for accerleration, because I know that it isn't, I was just adding that the long gearing does make it boost friendly and can handle alot of it pretty safe. It doesn't make any more power, or quicker off the line, sorry if that came out wrong. And I do know that tuning is everything. I was trying to simplify things for the guy with the question. I was speaking in terms of your average kit turbo on a stock motor. I wasn't nessisarily saying that more power is better, as the article you posted whent over very well. But civickiller was trying to tell me that the b16a can handle more psi (same turbo on both motors, and same amount of tuning. ie everything equal) than a b18b. That is false, but like you say it does all come down to tuning. I know that there will always be someone who can tune and find or make more power in any motor!

I wasn't meaning to say that the long gearing is better for accerleration, because I know that it isn't, I was just adding that the long gearing does make it boost friendly and can handle alot of it pretty safe. It doesn't make any more power, or quicker off the line, sorry if that came out wrong. And I do know that tuning is everything. I was trying to simplify things for the guy with the question. I was speaking in terms of your average kit turbo on a stock motor. I wasn't nessisarily saying that more power is better, as the article you posted whent over very well. But civickiller was trying to tell me that the b16a can handle more psi (same turbo on both motors, and same amount of tuning. ie everything equal) than a b18b. That is false, but like you say it does all come down to tuning. I know that there will always be someone who can tune and find or make more power in any motor!

For the sake of everyone, stop talking. You have no idea what you're talking about. From oil pressure regulators, to the longer gearing being able to handle a lot of boost safely?

FWIW A B16 with race gas will handle more boost and power than the LS, PERIOD. The B16 is designed with beefier components because it is a higher performance engine from the factory. Ever on pump gas the B16 will make more power with less boost because it will be seeing lower cylinder pressures. Smaller displacement means less torque, and torque is directly related to cylinder pressure. Ever wonder why you start off with a bunch of timing, pull out timing as you reach the torque peak of the motor, and then add in a few more degrees as you near the horsepower peak?

i dont think he knows about tuning a car, so therefore he wouldnt know that you shoudl add more timing after peak torque. because he talks about not having to tune a ls real good to run 12psi, and taht a gsr needs to be tuned really good to run 8psi.

[QUOTE=boosted331]
FWIW A B16 with race gas will handle more boost and power than the LS, PERIOD. The B16 is designed with beefier components because it is a higher performance engine from the factory. Ever on pump gas the B16 will make more power with less boost because it will be seeing lower cylinder pressures. QUOTE]

I never said anything about boost on race gas. I said on pump gas, not race gas. And have said numerous times that the b16 will make more power per psi due to its higher compression, therefore well make more power will less boost. I have said that all along. What we were arguing was that I am saying the ls can handle more boost, not that it makes more power at the same psi, becasue I know the b16a makes more per psi, but the ls CAN handle more boost, which makes up for that. Maybe it doesn't make that much more hp, but it will make a whole lot more torque. Again this is with the ls boosted to 12 and the b16a boosted at 8. And yes I do know about tuning. Answer me this, can a b16a handle 12 pounds (on like a t3/4) as easy as an ls can handle 12? No, the ls does it easier, that is all I have been getting at all along. I don't see why that is so hard to understand. Ask anyone and they will tell you that an ls can handle more pounds of boost. Not that an ls makes more power at the same psi. I never said that dispite what you think I wrote. re-read it, that is not what I was saying.

you are right in a sense that a ls can handle more boost because you will reach the hp limits of a b16 at a lower psi then the ls, for example b16@10psi=300hp vs ls@12psi=300hp, you will reach the hp limits faster so there is no need to run more boost. any b series motor can handle enough boost to reach its hp limits.

you talk about the ls being a stronger motor being able to handle more psi's and its not a stronger motor, if you lower the cr on the b16, its internals will handle the same if not more psi because it has a better rod ratio so the b16 doesnt put as much force on the rods as a ls will, because of the ls's bad rod ratio.

the reason we are arguing with you is because you give bad advice. you keep talking about psi and that makes him think oh the ls can handle more psi, it must make more power and be better, when in fact the b16 is better. i mean think about it, someone says oh my ls motor can handle 12psi and your b16 can handle 10psi, haha my motor is better. that is exactly what you are saying when it isnt true. you talk about the ls motor making more power then a b16, that isnt true.

i mean why would you choose the ls over a b16, what just because it take a few more psi to reach its block limit ? thats stupid. oh it sounds cool to say you are running a few more psi but its safer on the block to reach its limits at a lower psi then at a higher psi.

another reason is because you are looking at psi when everyone else knows you should be looking at hp, it doesnt matter how much psi it can handle, its about hp it can make and handle. to give advice on psi it can handle without even looking at hp is just bad advice.

you are right in a sense that a ls can handle more boost because you will reach the hp limits of a b16 at a lower psi then the ls, for example b16@10psi=300hp vs ls@12psi=300hp, you will reach the hp limits faster so there is no need to run more boost. any b series motor can handle enough boost to reach its hp limits.

you talk about the ls being a stronger motor being able to handle more psi's and its not a stronger motor, if you lower the cr on the b16, its internals will handle the same if not more psi because it has a better rod ratio so the b16 doesnt put as much force on the rods as a ls will, because of the ls's bad rod ratio.

the reason we are arguing with you is because you give bad advice. you keep talking about psi and that makes him think oh the ls can handle more psi, it must make more power and be better, when in fact the b16 is better. i mean think about it, someone says oh my ls motor can handle 12psi and your b16 can handle 10psi, haha my motor is better. that is exactly what you are saying when it isnt true. you talk about the ls motor making more power then a b16, that isnt true.

i mean why would you choose the ls over a b16, what just because it take a few more psi to reach its block limit ? thats stupid. oh it sounds cool to say you are running a few more psi but its safer on the block to reach its limits at a lower psi then at a higher psi.

another reason is because you are looking at psi when everyone else knows you should be looking at hp, it doesnt matter how much psi it can handle, its about hp it can make and handle. to give advice on psi it can handle without even looking at hp is just bad advice.

Ya, that is in essense what I was getting at. I wasn't meaning to say the b16a is a worse motor by any means, it IS over all a better motor. I was just referring to which one is easier to boost. I was just simplifying things for this guy. They do both reach their hp limits at different psi, but it is easier to boost an ls to 12 than a b16 to 10 tuning wise. Really for the most part that is what I was getting at that it is easier to boost the ls to its limits than the b16. Sure if you can replace the pistons in the b16 for to run more boost, but I was stricktly reffereing to a stock block. If pistons and rods are going to be replaced than the b16a is going to be lots better, I was just thinking in stock form. And I was also looking at what that particular ls motor had already had done to it. It has more work done already than his b16. The b16 does have the near perfect rod ratio, which is a big thumbs up to it, but personally I do feel it is easier to boost an ls. Plus you make alot more torque in the ls, which I guess doesn't mean crap if it doesn hook up, but if you can get that power to hook up, it is going to be an advantage. But like you are saying if you are going to replace internals it is a totally different story, I would hands down take the b16a, but I don't think this guy is going to be replacing them. So I still have my opinion that I think the ls is the easiest b series motor to boost in stock form. That is just how I feel, obvously you dissagree, and I can respect that, I have talked to many deffernt people who feel the way I do on this subject, and just as many who feel the other way around. So I guess it is just a matter of preferance. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and since we have already beaten this subject around as much as we have, I will accept that you disagree with me, and respect that. So sorry if this kinda turned into a war of the wills! Hope there aren't hard feelings.Peace!

Correction:

Stock for stock, a b16 is faster than a b18. Putting the engines on a car that weighs the same.

People dont know shit about torque and they think 200cc will make a huge difference on a quarter mile race.

Let me put it this way, get two identical civics, dump a b16 in one and a V6 3.3 liter producing 140 hp in the other one and guess who will win. The car with the B16.

Mmm...I cant take it anymore, people talking bla bla bla about torque and shit and they dont even race at a track...

But big Hp numbers are for show, and to win dick swinging contest. I'd rather be able to get less hp to the ground than have my car jumping off a dyno, or better yet spinning through third with no traction.


im glad someone else has realized this other than me. a very good example i know of first hand. i have two friends with drag cars. one with an ek Si built 2L lsvtec turbo that puts down over 600hp to the wheels. the other has an eg hatchback that has a built gsr motor 1.8L turbo and he puts down about 390hp to the wheels. they both have full interiors, running on drag slicks, minimal weight reduction, and are both good drivers yet they run almost identical times on the track. hows that one for you? and guess which one spent way more on his motor?

oh and to add wood to the tranny flaming, they both run gsr trannies. not ls. the only reason you would go ls is because you wouldnt be able to react fast enough to shift before you hit the rev limiter with a very short geared tranny like a b16 or type r. but you would be accelerating faster.

im glad someone else has realized this other than me. a very good example i know of first hand. i have two friends with drag cars. one with an ek Si built 2L lsvtec turbo that puts down over 600hp to the wheels. the other has an eg hatchback that has a built gsr motor 1.8L turbo and he puts down about 390hp to the wheels. they both have full interiors, running on drag slicks, minimal weight reduction, and are both good drivers yet they run almost identical times on the track. hows that one for you? and guess which one spent way more on his motor?

The only reason they run the same times is because the guy with the SI sucks at driving, big time. With 600 WHP he should be, at the very least, out trapping the 390 WHP guy by a 20+ MPH margin.

The only reason they run the same times is because the guy with the SI sucks at driving, big time. With 600 WHP he should be, at the very least, out trapping the 390 WHP guy by a 20+ MPH margin.
His traps probably are higher, but his times are being shortchanged by the blacklines back at the stage.

Edman, what are their 60's?

600hp will require some sick rates on the rear springs, traction bars, bad ass slicks, a light foot, anything to get that to the ground well.

i would assume that anybody that has 600hp, does have the right springs and traction bars already on the car, especially since he said its a drag car.

i am curious on his 60s too ?

to be quite honest i dont know their 60 foot times and no neither are bad drivers. yes the 600hp one has higher trap speeds but that means nothing if it cant put the power to the ground early on as well. i know for a fact the eg is running thousand lb springs on his coilovers in the rear. i think the ek has a similar setup but he uses a more expensive coilover. also they use very fatty slicks, so that is not the problem. i think the ek just has too much power for his current setup. yah its great at 80+mph but even then he still smokes the tires. oh well
:iceslolan

b18b/b16head

yes lowering hte compression will allow for more boost but like i said your focusing too much on psi level and not hp level which you should be looking at. why would you lower hte cr when you can make 300whp at 8psi or you can lower hte cr and make 300whp at 12psi. why would you do that ?



hhmmm, i don't when was the last time i've been in here (on my way to getting a bike instead, 600rr baby :smokin: ) but i guess nobody noticed this statement? :screwy: well i didn't read the rest of the other posts guys but just mainlly browsed (geez it was too much), but this did caught my attention.




let me explain why c/r ratio is lowered and is prefered in f/i vehicles. lets say we use your numbers for instructional purposes only: 300whp@8psi and this is for a b18c1, here with me so far? well to get these numbers the b18c1 is running on a high c/r of 10.1:1, which to keep it simple when divided will equate to 37.5 whp per pound of boost. so in other words, 37.5whp x 8psi = 300 whp. got it?




ok, now with the b18b, it has a lower c/r of 9.2:1 so it will never make the same amount of whp as the b18c1 of 37.5 per pound of boost. however; now that it c/r is lowered, the amount of boost can be raised to say 12 psi. we know that power is decreased, so now instead of the high 37.5 whp, it is lowered to 30 whp, which is pretty freaken low. but lets do the math here, 30.0 whp x 12psi = 360 whp. now u see the reason behind a lower c/r is more valued than that of a higher one in a f/i vehicle? hope this helps.



lastly, i just want to say that theres more to it then just hpand tq and who has more. a main part of it is how to harness it smoothly to the ground without losing control which is a pretty difficult task. another thing i want to mention is that any of these motors can be built to go fast, whether its the b16, b18, or b18c1, the main factor is about money and how much u have, however, overall, if u want a fast motor period, ls/vtec :icon16: .



for more info:
http://www.beesandgoats.com/boostfaq/g2icturbo.html

if you were wondering i didnt do any calculation for that 300@8 and 300@12, i just picked those numbers to show a point. why would you wanna be making 300hp at a higher psi when you can be making it at a lower psi ?

tell me if you can get this logic, ok you decide you want a set psi level, which motor will make more power at say 10psi, a b18c or a b18b ? as everyone knows the b18c, so would you choose hte b18c or b18b?

still dont get it ? let show it alittel further. you got a b18c at 37.5 per psi, then you got the ls at 30 per psi, you decide to run both of them at 8psi, so the gsr has 300hp and the ls has 240hp. now bump the boost to 12psi, the gsr has 450hp and the ls has 360. which one would you choose ? the point of it all is that to equal hte power you have to raise boost more on the ls.

i would wanan be making the most hp i could on the least amount of boost

yes, i knew u didn't use any calculations to get those numbers, but those numbers given doesn't explain well on the theory of compression and how it effects the total whp (by those numbers, seem like ur comparing a b18c to a d15). just because a motor can make more whp per pound of boost nessecarilly doesn't mean it will make more total whp. y? cause of their high compression ratios, they are limited to lower psi levels.

ok, 10 psi for a b18c or a b18b. of course the b18c, but thats only becuase u set the psi at 10, which we already knew again pound per pound the b18c will make more of. heres what ur not understanding, at 10 psi ur basically pushing the b18c to the extreme, add a tank of bad gas and u can say good bye to ur motor (b18c stock already requires premium unleaded fuel), whereas the b18b has no problem and can be push more and when at a higher psi will create more hp and more tq than then its counterpart.

man i don't want to go on and on, just take a look at a b18c5 for example, how many would turbo these at say 10 psi utilizing a t3/t4 on a stock motor? NO ONE. these would obliterate any b-series motor when forced fed pound per pound which is what u are arguing. so why don't people use it then? cause this a high compression N/A motor and you'll be lucky to use 6-7 psi unless u lower the c/r. f/i and n/a motors calls for different ratios, i hope u see that now my friend and the b18b already had the idea ratio for turbo. u just can't just choose a motor who makes 300whp@8psi because it makes more power per pound of boost. hhmmm, so would u still choose it, if this is its safest setting before detonation whereas the other motor can safely run 400whp@16psi?

the limit of b series motors are around 300, although people are pushing that number higher and higher everyday. a b18c limit is 300hp and a b18b's limit is 300hp, so it dont really matter how much psi it takes, once you reach 300hp its dangerous to go further. so that is why i dont get when you say oh a ls at 12psi will make more hp then a gsr at 8psi. put it this way, if the ls can handle that much hp then the gsr can handle that much hp, so take the ls to whatever power you want and you can match it with the gsr. if the ls at 12psi is more then the gsr at 8psi, all you gotta do is turn up hte boost in the gsr till it matches the ls's hp and its all good and it will handle it.

you keep using exact numbers and limiting it to that, like oh the ls will make more hp at 12psi then the gsr at 8psi and thats it the gsr cant go any higher, thats what your saying by saying that the ls will make more power then the gsr will. when in reality if the ls makes more hp, you just turn up the boost in the gsr to match it and the gsr will handle it.

so what if the gsr runs on premium already, do you know that on pump gas you can make 400hp ? 400hp is hte limit for pump gas.

i would say the type r is just like everyothe rmotor, its limit is 300, well maybe less because it does have really high cr.

no stock motor is gonna handle 400hp.

do you know why you limit psi on with a higher cr on a stock motor, because you reach the stock motor limits faster. do you know why you run less psi on built motor with pump gas, because you reach the limits of pump gas on less psi. you reach the limits of everything on less psi because you are making more hp on higher cr. and with all of these example you are not making any less hp then the other motor, its all the same, 300 on stock block and 400 on built pump gas block. your running less psi because your reaching the limits faster witha higher cr.

so what if the gsr runs on premium already, do you know that on pump gas you can make 400hp ? 400hp is hte limit for pump gas.


no stock motor is gonna handle 400hp.



ok ive had a hard time understanding the last 4 or five posts because you guys keep going back and forth between gsr and ls motors. but anyways i had to comment on these statements.

first of all they are both not true.

the first statement is absolute bs. pump gas has no set limit. ive seen an s2000, built and turbocharged to over 550WHP on pump gas, and that is one of many different examples i could give you. so dont make generalizations like that.

second, there are many stock motors that can handle well over 400hp. and if you were just referring to honda motors then you should have stated it.

i call bs on your s2000 making 550whp on pump gas, show me proof. show me proof of any motor making over 400 on pump gas. but of course i hope you dont think i mean 400 exactly, not 401 because 400 is a general number, it can go either way alittle.

let me rephrase this 400hp on pump gas, this is on 91 octane pumps, the limit on 91 is around 400hp. because i know there are gas stations that pump higher then 91.

well this is the honda/acura forum so i would hope nobody thinks im talking about a toyota motor or something like that. thats a pretty dumb statement you made.

the limit of b series motors are around 300, although people are pushing that number higher and higher everyday.


this is simply false. where u read this from? im not going to start tearing up ur post since i don't want to be hear all day, but it looks like someone already has.


anyways, u don't limit a motors capabilities by how many hp it makes, this is almost absurd as using psi as a goal instead of a hp goal. ur also contradicting urself, u say the limit is or around 300, but then u say people are surpassing it. uuhh ok... :rolleyes:. u do not limit a motor by its hp, let me say again, u do not limit a motor by its hp, shall i say it one more time? what is limited is how much stress and pressure a motor can handle b4 detonation, which doesn't correlate to an exact amount of hp created.


this again goes back to c/r. just because a f/i b18c reaches 300hp doesn't mean an n/a motor will also. you'll be lucky to even see a 240-250 whp n/a b18c not alone a 300 whp one, since higher compression lowers the overall hp limit . to make huge power from f/i, u have to lower ur c/r, no ifs, ands, or buts. oh and also, the reason why most people pass 300 hp is becuase of 3 words: TUNING, TUNING , TUNING.

you see, the reason you use hp as a limit is because there are way too many other variables to calculate what exactly it can handle. i mean there psi, cfm, tuning, octane, motor itself, rpm, way its driven, cylinder pressure. so that is why they say 300hp is the limit because from experience from motors once you start to get above 300hp its not as reliable.

yeah there are people going past 300hp but usually these motors dont last long and arent considered reliable and safe. most of the 300+hp motors arent really daily drivers, maybe weekend warrirors but not daily driven, so people claim oh yeah my car does this and they say they drive it on the street, but they dont really say how much they drive and of course they exaggerate alot too. only people that usually do run more then 300+hp are tuners because they can tune the car to handle the hp.

we are not talking about na motors, we are talking about fi motors. so anyone who knows abomut motors will know that i am not talking about 300hp na, im talking about 300hp fi. you should be able to infer that i am not talking about na, im talking about fi,so 300 is for fi.

i dont even talk about tuning because its a given, everyone konw your motor aint gonna last if it isnt tuned. thats why none of us are talking about tuning, its already given that its gotta be tuned really good.

if you wanan try and pick at the little details that i didnt state then why dont you just make a post saying,

"civickiller is talking about 300 fi hp, and that all the motors he is talking about are fully tuned."

something simple instead of TRYING to prove me wrong, when instead you make yourself sound stupid by TRYING to prove me wrong.

ok so you say you dont limit a motor by hp numbers, so how would you determine its limits, you say stress and pressure. give us an example of what you mean.

DETONATION


omg, im so tempted to rip it apart...

someone please stop this guy...
or atleast stop urself, ur digging urself into a deeper grave .

so what your saying is that if you can get a motor not to detonate, then it can handle as much as you can throw at it. if thats what your saying then that is not true.

come on if i am so wrong, plz correct me

so what your saying is that if you can get a motor not to detonate, then it can handle as much as you can throw at it. if thats what your saying then that is not true.

come on if i am so wrong, plz correct me

did i say u can throw anything at it? no i didn't, please ask b4 u assume. 300 whp also isn't the limit, please get this out of ur head.


first off, there is so much a stock 1.8 liter can do, so even without detonation, a stock b18 designed for n/a will not make no +400whp because of is displacment and its internals wasn't made to be forced fed. on the other hand, if this was a f/i motor to begin with or that it was built like a tank then u can boost to till ur heart is content, but it isn't. the limit is how well u want ur car to run, it could be 325whp or it could be 210whp, there is no exact amount.


the worse enemy for a turbo motor is DETONATION, and it can happen at any hp, this is why people tune the air/fuel to eliminate it from being too lean (too much air), which can melt ur rods and ruin ur internals, or running too rich (too much fuel) which causes poor performance and gas milage. this is what limits the motor, not hp. thats like saying, yeah a limit for a b18b is 12 psi, but 12 psi can equal a different volume of air in various sizes of turbos. 12 psi in a t25 is not the same in a t/3 compressor, and a t/3 12 psi is not the same as a t/4, etc. etc. basically theres too many variables, thats why we don't use psi as a limit. this is the same reason we don't use hp as a limit. we can though use hp as goal ur trying to attain, understand?


if u want more power after tuning ur motor to its optimum potential whatever that maybe, u can then start lowering compression and building ur block to help relieve and withstand the pressure, stress, and heat caused by more air being fed into the combustion chamber. however; by this time, this is not a stock motor no more, and the more air being fed in would have made u upgrade ur air/fuel managementand the other neccesary parts needed, unless of course u want to carry ur engine back home in pieces caused from DETONATION.

i call bs on your s2000 making 550whp on pump gas, show me proof. show me proof of any motor making over 400 on pump gas. but of course i hope you dont think i mean 400 exactly, not 401 because 400 is a general number, it can go either way alittle.

let me rephrase this 400hp on pump gas, this is on 91 octane pumps, the limit on 91 is around 400hp. because i know there are gas stations that pump higher then 91. but usually the general concensus is that when you talk about "pump gas" you are refering to 91.

well this is the honda/acura forum so i would hope nobody thinks im talking about a toyota motor or something like that. thats a pretty dumb statement you made.


ok take a quick trip over to www.full-race.com and check out some of their cars. they have an s2000 with built motor putting down 550+ on pump gas. if you cant find it let me know and ill waste some of my time in proving you wrong. and i think we all know what pump gas is. you dont need to clarify that its 91 octane. and the statement i made about the honda motor thing is very acceptable considering what you were saying. you said "no stock motor is gonna handle 400hp. " most people would think that you are saying there is no motor out there that makes 400hp from the factory. you need to clarify what company youre talking about no matter what forum youre in. want to get a point accross? be specific, and try to make sure you know what youre talking about.

first its melt pistons, not rods. second running too rich can caused a blown motor too.

you dont seem to talk about anything else but detonation, so ill repeat what i said before. so if you can get a motor not to detonate then it will handle as much power as your throw at it ?

you can only tune a motor so much before the stock internals wont be able to handle the cfm, psi, and cylinder pressures before they break even if it is tuned good. but detonation is a major factor too. and from experience from top tuners, they say its around 300hp.

i believe what tuners tell me, before i believe what you say. i aint repeating something i made up. im telling you what top tuners have told me, and they tell me around 300hp is the highest you shoudl go, any more and its not safe. these guys have tuned hundreds of cars, and you havent, so i believe what they tell me over what you say. i just aint making this up.

yeah i seen that car before, fully built motor s2k, but sorry to break it to you that it was on 93 octane, not 91 octane, 93 octane and it only put down 512whp.

now this is a quote from Geoff over at full race, "i dont know of anyone making more than 512 on pump gas in a 4 cyl?"

now what does that statement tell you, it tells me that the guys at full race havent seen anyone else make that kind of power on pump gas, so you can assume that every other car hes seen hasnt made that much, probably the cars he seen made in the high 400s hp on 93 octane. jeff over at full race has a stock gsr with a 3mm headgasket on 11psi and he puts down 350hp on 93 octane.

if you didnt know you can make more power on 93 then on 91, so if its 93 the hp limit goes up from 400 on 91

yes, rods not pistons, rods will more likely bend or break in the extreme, guess i got them both mix up, but whatever, im willing to admit it. runing rich causes a blown motor? please show me. running rich won't caused heat, only lean, so i hope u have some proof of this blown motor.

about the 300hp limit again, what i say? stress, pressure and heat from detonation, sounds to me like ur doing a repeat of my answer but adding a little bit more to make it ur own :rolleyes: just because a b18c is turbocharged, this doesn't mean its limit is automatically 300hp. there is simply too many variables. don't go around telling people this is the limit, but people have made more, really makes u look like an idiot. a better statement would be, a b18c motor have beeb seen to reach 300hp, this is definately not the same as 300hp is the limit.

if u happen to get your info from these so call tuners, and this is what they tell u, especially about the other facts u pointed out, then go ahead and believe what u want to believe. those aren't facts, they are what these tuners think in thir opinion, don't get it confuse. not all tuners think alike, if u didn't know, there are bad tuners out there, and from some of the several misguided info i got from u, makes me wonder.

if you run really rich the fuel will wash away the oil on the cylinder walls, so that leaves ring to cylinder wall bare metal contact. after time you will start to get blowby, notice power loss, smoke, then you gotta rebuild the motor and youll be stumped as to why it happened.

i think your taking my 300hp limit way too far. 300hp is just a general basis. im not saying that the limit is 300 so you cant go 301. what i am saying is that around 300hp is when you start to reach the limits of the motor. even if you tune the motor perfect, eventually you will reach a cfm and cylinder pressure limit that the stock rods or whatever wont be able to handle and they will snap or whatever. but again like you said, detonation is also a big factor too, detonation will blow a motor.

you can go higher then 300 but you start to lose reliability on the motor. i do know what will cause a motor to blow, but how can you put that into perpestive for soemoen, what do you say dont go above to much cfm, or dont let the cylinder pressure go higher then so and so, or dont run more then such and such psi. a person is not going to look at that, so what is a easier number to deal with, hp.

and from tuners experience, around 300 is a good safe reliable hp for honda motors.

how would you tell someone the limits of there motor ? what just keep going till you blow it. or keep tuning till it detonates. you can blow a motor long before it detonates. so tell me how you would tell someone the limits of there motor ?

you said

"so what if the gsr runs on premium already, do you know that on pump gas you can make 400hp ? 400hp is hte limit for pump gas."

if im not mistaken 93 octane is pump gas. dont try and tell me about octane levels. my car is boosting 18psi right now and has to run over 96 octane to prevent detonation because i do not have a stand alone and very little dyno time. so i run a mixture of toluene and pump gas but i wouldnt expect you to know what that is. yah so again if you want to make a point be specific. 93 octane is pump gas and if you were referring to the limits of 91 you should have stated it. and no 93 is not only in special pumps, there are many cities and states in america and canada that have 93 octane in all the stations.

let me rephrase this 400hp on pump gas, this is on 91 octane pumps, the limit on 91 is around 400hp. because i know there are gas stations that pump higher then 91.


did i not state this on this page 3rd post from the top ?

and for the record i do know what toulene is

and at 18psi, it is stupid to not run a stand alone, it is cheap compared to a motor rebuild. just get uberdata so only thing you gota do is buy all hte equipment to put it on and buy a wideband and tuen it yourself, should only cost you around 300 if you tune it yourself. but i wouldnt expect you to know how to tune it yourself. if you want to run uberdata, let me know i can make you a basic conservative base map.

did i not state this on this page 3rd post from the top ?

and for the record i do know what toulene is

and at 18psi, it is stupid to not run a stand alone, it is cheap compared to a motor rebuild. just get uberdata so only thing you gota do is buy all hte equipment to put it on and buy a wideband and tuen it yourself, should only cost you around 300 if you tune it yourself. but i wouldnt expect you to know how to tune it yourself. if you want to run uberdata, let me know i can make you a basic conservative base map.


why would i do all that when im selling the car anyways. i need something more reliable and with better gas mileage for college. so im probably getting an ae86. and if i was going to do a stand alone i would never cheap out like that and use a diy setup. the only parts that go on my car are the best in the market. IF i were to get a stand alone system it would be sds or motec and would be tuned professionally. whether or not its necessary in your eyes is irrelevant. im very picky with what goes in my car and would rather spend the extra money to have it done right.

uberdata is not a bad standalone, its just as good as hondata, it may not have all the same features yet but it will soon enough. so why would you pay for a hondata when you can get a uberdata for the exact same thing and its the same, not cheaper or a worst quality, the same.

go ahead and buy a motec, and when you make one little change to your car you gotta go pay a tuner to retune your car, or you can go uberdata and retuen it yourself and save the money. all you gotta do is learn how to tune

uberdata is not a bad standalone, its just as good as hondata, it may not have all the same features yet but it will soon enough. so why would you pay for a hondata when you can get a uberdata for the exact same thing and its the same, not cheaper or a worst quality, the same.

go ahead and buy a motec, and when you make one little change to your car you gotta go pay a tuner to retune your car, or you can go uberdata and retuen it yourself and save the money. all you gotta do is learn how to tune


or i could take a little extra time to learn the software and tune the motec myself when i change small things. :smokin:

have you read up on how you gotta setup a motec ecu ? its not like hondata. theres alot of other parameters you gotta enter in to get it good. ive seen motec installed on a few cars and it doesnt look easy

but if your confident in yourself then more power to you

have you read up on how you gotta setup a motec ecu ? its not like hondata. theres alot of other parameters you gotta enter in to get it good. ive seen motec installed on a few cars and it doesnt look easy

but if your confident in yourself then more power to you


yah a good friend has a motec m4 system on his full race car and its very complex. but nothing anyone else can tune i cant tune. i just need some text and some time and i, like anyone else, could figure it out.