Fahrenheit 9/11

Very graciously and intelligently written, Tenguzero. Thanks for an even-headed posting!

Just got back from the movie and my overall impression is: Hmm.

It seems like two movies -- the first half hour is a long, winding (but interesting) documentation of the relationship between the Bush family and the Saudi royal family, and, even more so, our buddies the Bin Ladens, not-so-subtly suggesting that the current administration is in the pockets of the Saudis. It's slow, it's boring, and the then-transition to the War on Iraq is a little strange, because:

THE SAUDIS OPPOSED THE WAR AGAINST IRAQ! (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0315-03.htm)

He never really explains the apparent contradiction. That was sloppy. However, the handling of the 9/11 attacks was masterful. Perfection. RESPECTFUL, and that really surprised me. Apparently, using 9/11 for political purposes is someone else's job (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/170291p-148587c.html)

The coverage of said War, though, is perfect (although somewhat grisly at times). He mainly focused on the profiteering corporate, er, FELLOWS who were eagerly discussing how much money they could make off Iraq while GIs were getting shredded. Just like GWB's presidency, the movie hits its stride after 9/11. It's just incredible to watch.

Bottom line: If you can suffer through the first 20 minutes, you will be very well rewarded by the rest of the movie. This here conservative gives the first half-hour two thumbs down and the rest of the film two thumbs and a severed arm or two way way up.

Go see. Makes ya think.

What's ironic about this film is the day it is number one in the box office is the day a free Iraq is being handed over to its people with Saddam nowhere in sight. If we had gone Micheal Moore's way, there's no doubt in my mind the people of Iraq wouldn't be free today.

And if we had it Michael Moore's way EVERY SOLDIER THAT WAS MAIMED, WOUNDED, OR KILLED IN IRAQ WOULD BE LIVING RIGHT NOW, (switches sarcasm on)now gee wouldn't that be a shame(switches sarcasm off) i'm sure it's a comfort to all the families of the soldiers that gave their lives that Iraq, a country most have never been to and home to a people who hates us now more so than when they did b4 the war, that this country and its ppl are now free.

Naki under the 3 years of Bush my year pay has gone up 8K US dollars, I pay less taxes now then under Clinton. Last year The government sent me a check for 1200 US dollars as a tax credit. Our local newspaper is full of job openings. SO I can say my situation has improved under Bush. Bush will always be remembered for Iraq but he did give me more of my money back.

As for Moore Bush wil never speak of him. Sometimes its better to ignore it then give some sense of Moore being right(if he was right and I am not saying that).

That tax credit is helping the country go farther into debt which for the younger generation is going to cause a problem, also I have wworked in collections for a major credit card company for 3 years and the #1 thing i hear is "I am out of work and I am filing bankruptcy" I make 160 calls a day and i probably hear "I am out of work" at least 15 times a day that doesnt sound like much but, I have been hearing that for three years, and that' s just me I know that my associates hear it far more often so I am glad that u have a good job and that Bush has treated u well because not many others can say the same, I know that from personal experience.

Ok I did read it right you want an agency to "help" you find a job. Then you want that agency to give your employer money for hiring you.

Ok The day I graduated college I stepped off the steps and went to work the next day in a defense contractor, worked there 3 years. Next I filled out one job app to USAIR as a mechanic. Now getting a job with the major airlines is tough. I got the job on my first try. Did that with 2 more airlines. I got tired of moving all the time so one day I walked into a car dealer knowing nothing about cars. Two days later I started working there. The last job was out of my area on knowledge yet I got the job no problems. Right now I have a dealer willing to drive a truck pick me and my family up just to work for him. I have several dealers asking for me to work for them. It's more atitude than anything else. I have my employer by the balls and I let them know they can't live without me.

Now I am also sure that in time you will find a job, starting out is tough to do but keep plugging away and it will happen.

Man, it's incredible, the arrogance that u have, I talk to ppl like u all day long, and I really mean ppl JUST like u, ppl who were "indispensible" u think u have ur employers "by the balls" ? well I have news for u...u don't! they EMPLOY U... u may think they cannot live w/o u but its the other way around w/o them U cannot make a living they employ you and they got by just fine b4 u came along and the minute that it suits them they can leave u in the dust I can guarantee u that they can find someone just like u and offer them les money then u'd be getting calls from ppl like me, one lesson I learned at my job is that NO ONE is indispensible.

Man, it's incredible, the arrogance that u have, I talk to ppl like u all day long, and I really mean ppl JUST like u, ppl who were "indispensible" u think u have ur employers "by the balls" ? well I have news for u...u don't! they EMPLOY U... u may think they cannot live w/o u but its the other way around w/o them U cannot make a living they employ you and they got by just fine b4 u came along and the minute that it suits them they can leave u in the dust I can guarantee u that they can find someone just like u and offer them les money then u'd be getting calls from ppl like me, one lesson I learned at my job is that NO ONE is indispensible.


:werd:

I have worked in collections for a major credit card company for 3 years and the #1 thing i hear is "I am out of work and I am filing bankruptcy" I make 160 calls a day and i probably hear "I am out of work" at least 15 times a day that doesnt sound like much but, I have been hearing that for three years.
Hmm, let's get this right. You've worked in collections for 3 years, and seem surprised that so many of the people you call, that aren't paying their bills, are unemployed!!
So less than 10% of the deadbeats you call are out of work and you think that this is a crisis, and somehow connected to Bush's tax cuts??
:loser:
What about the other 145 people? Are they just getting lured-in by the credit-card companies offering them ridiculous credit lines? My wife and I added it up once and all the pre-approved solicitations I recieved that month totaled over $260,000.00 - almost triple my income! I would imagine a bigger problem you see is all the dumb-ass yuppies buying SUVs they cannot afford, living lives they cannot afford, in homes they cannot afford. I know of 3 couples in my development living in $300K homes they cannot afford to heat and cool, much less furnish! Two of them also have $50K+ SUV's financed with 10 year loans that have been parked because of gas prices.
I have simpathy for the hard-luck cases but self-inflicted-financial-abuse doesn't garner any slack from me. I say we need to change our bankruptcy laws!

Hmm, let's get this right. You've worked in collections for 3 years, and seem surprised that so many of the people you call, that aren't paying their bills, are unemployed!!
So less than 10% of the deadbeats you call are out of work and you think that this is a crisis, and somehow connected to Bush's tax cuts??
:loser:
What about the other 145 people? Are they just getting lured-in by the credit-card companies offering them ridiculous credit lines? My wife and I added it up once and all the pre-approved solicitations I recieved that month totaled over $260,000.00 - almost triple my income! I would imagine a bigger problem you see is all the dumb-ass yuppies buying SUVs they cannot afford, living lives they cannot afford, in homes they cannot afford. I know of 3 couples in my development living in $300K homes they cannot afford to heat and cool, much less furnish! Two of them also have $50K+ SUV's financed with 10 year loans that have been parked because of gas prices.
I have simpathy for the hard-luck cases but self-inflicted-financial-abuse doesn't garner any slack from me. I say we need to change our bankruptcy laws!

Well said!

I have a few acquiantances that work in collections and there are a couple main reasons why people won't pay their bills. And 80 or 90% of the time its not that they can't afford it or don't have a job. Its because they are selfish punks who think they shouldn't pay for the services rendered to them. Or because they purposefully ignore the first 10 collection notices and create a personal vendeta against the billing company. People don't want to pay bills because there are cheap scums everywhere that won't hold their word or show any shred of moral decency in their finances. They don't think the doctor that performed a 13,000$ operation on them deserves the money or that they should have to pay becasue "they are still sick". I would like to see someone walk into a doctor's office and ask for an operation that was extremely important and for the doctor to say,"Sure, you pay us now, and we'll do the operations when we get around to it in,say, a couple of months, when we feel like doing it." How do you think that would go over with the patient? Same way with billing. In America, the majority of people have the means and the intiative to do things, but many people are selfish bastards who want, want, want, but don't earn, earn, earn, and don't pay. Case in point, collections.

Hmm, let's get this right. You've worked in collections for 3 years, and seem surprised that so many of the people you call, that aren't paying their bills, are unemployed!!
So less than 10% of the deadbeats you call are out of work and you think that this is a crisis, and somehow connected to Bush's tax cuts??
:loser:
What about the other 145 people? Are they just getting lured-in by the credit-card companies offering them ridiculous credit lines? My wife and I added it up once and all the pre-approved solicitations I recieved that month totaled over $260,000.00 - almost triple my income! I would imagine a bigger problem you see is all the dumb-ass yuppies buying SUVs they cannot afford, living lives they cannot afford, in homes they cannot afford. I know of 3 couples in my development living in $300K homes they cannot afford to heat and cool, much less furnish! Two of them also have $50K+ SUV's financed with 10 year loans that have been parked because of gas prices.
I have simpathy for the hard-luck cases but self-inflicted-financial-abuse doesn't garner any slack from me. I say we need to change our bankruptcy laws!
Damn good post! I know several people who live pay check to pay check lives and its ridiculous. I mean they're my friends and good people, it just amazes me the things they do. My friend(23) moved into a house with his gf(34) and he just up and left his apartment and now creditors are after him and she said she's done it like five times. I asked if she was worried and she said they give up after a short while.

Hmm, let's get this right. You've worked in collections for 3 years, and seem surprised that so many of the people you call, that aren't paying their bills, are unemployed!!
So less than 10% of the deadbeats you call are out of work and you think that this is a crisis, and somehow connected to Bush's tax cuts??
:loser:
What about the other 145 people? Are they just getting lured-in by the credit-card companies offering them ridiculous credit lines? My wife and I added it up once and all the pre-approved solicitations I recieved that month totaled over $260,000.00 - almost triple my income! I would imagine a bigger problem you see is all the dumb-ass yuppies buying SUVs they cannot afford, living lives they cannot afford, in homes they cannot afford. I know of 3 couples in my development living in $300K homes they cannot afford to heat and cool, much less furnish! Two of them also have $50K+ SUV's financed with 10 year loans that have been parked because of gas prices.
I have simpathy for the hard-luck cases but self-inflicted-financial-abuse doesn't garner any slack from me. I say we need to change our bankruptcy laws!

Lilke I said that's just my experience and it is just an estimate some days there are more some less, but like I said that's my experience there are 2000 ppl in the building I work in plus there are three other collection centers they all make calls from 6am to 9pm 7 days a week and if any of them are having the same experience that I am then that means there is a lot of unemployed plus there are also MANY MANY other credit card companies in the same position and if their cardmembers are like ours then that is a lot of out of work ppl.

I have a few acquiantances that work in collections and there are a couple main reasons why people won't pay their bills. And 80 or 90% of the time its not that they can't afford it or don't have a job. Its because they are selfish punks who think they shouldn't pay for the services rendered to them. Or because they purposefully ignore the first 10 collection notices and create a personal vendeta against the billing company. People don't want to pay bills because there are cheap scums everywhere that won't hold their word or show any shred of moral decency in their finances. Same way with billing. In America, the majority of people have the means and the intiative to do things, but many people are selfish bastards who want, want, want, but don't earn, earn, earn, and don't pay. Case in point, collections.

a REFUSAL to pay situation is rarely the situation i get maybe one of those a week, and u can't confuse a won't pay situation with a can't pay siuation there is a difference a can't pay is very common thosre are ppl who are out of overexended etc etc wont pay is where the cardmember is a jerk and refuses to pay. In collections most of the time if they can pay they will pay but the trick in collections is getting them to pay u right there in thre phone so that u know for sure what day it will come in and how much will be coming in u haved to convince themto do the payment the way u want to not the way they want to.

To get back on topic "COUGH", i'm going tuesday to see it with my mom and brother. Ill give a review afterwards. peace

Man, it's incredible, the arrogance that u have, I talk to ppl like u all day long, and I really mean ppl JUST like u, ppl who were "indispensible" u think u have ur employers "by the balls" ? well I have news for u...u don't! they EMPLOY U... u may think they cannot live w/o u but its the other way around w/o them U cannot make a living they employ you and they got by just fine b4 u came along and the minute that it suits them they can leave u in the dust I can guarantee u that they can find someone just like u and offer them les money then u'd be getting calls from ppl like me, one lesson I learned at my job is that NO ONE is indispensible.

Did I ever say I am indispensible? I work in a "right to work" state, I am very well informed on the labor laws and attitudes here.

If I am arrogant you must be stupid for believe those 15 people who say they are out of work. I am sure every person you call tells you the honest and complete truth! How gullible you are! The people you call over extended themselves and dug a huge hole for themselves.

Look in the freaking newspaper its full of jobs. The problem is the young kids who want it all right away, the 50K car the 300K home while working at a 25K a year job. They want a 100K job knowing nothing and having no experience. Maybe they need to lay off the status symbols and live within their means.

BTW for the time being I do have my employer by the balls! Without me on the records GM would audit the dealer and the dealer wouldn't be able to fill certain claim types due to a lack of training. It would take another tech 3 years of constant training to get them to were GM requires them to be!

The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/)'s Fahrenheit 9/11 Infographic:

http://www.theonion.com/infograph/index.php?issue=4027

(they're a parody newspaper, in case you don't read it. Which you should. http://www.theonion.com)

Look in the freaking newspaper its full of jobs. The problem is the young kids who want it all right away, the 50K car the 300K home while working at a 25K a year job. They want a 100K job knowing nothing and having no experience. Maybe they need to lay off the status symbols and live within their means.

Well yeah, of course they do, because that's what the older generation did, and is still doing! How many of these 40 somethings do you think can really afford their $45,000 SUV's, $350,000 homes, alimony/child support payments (because they're so damn divorce-crazy) and any other of the numerous things they love. The "younger" generation has had it DRILLED into their heads by the schools, the parents, the media, and the workforce that the ticket to success is a good education, a willingness to work, and a plan to manage finances. Well, they've got the education (to the tune of a massive loan hanging over their heads for many years to come,) the willingness to work (I don't know where a lot of people are getting these views of a "lazy" generation from -- most everyone I know is busting their ass trying to support themselves, AND DOING IT WHILE STILL TRYING TO GET GOOD GRADES FROM THEIR $40,000 INVESTMENT!) and the plans for future financial management (maybe it's just me, but there seems to be an awful lot of younger people talking about IRAs, stock options, 401Ks, etc.)

The "lazyness" thing is complete BS -- a vast chunk of the workforce is minimum/low-wage workers, MANY of which are young people. The current statistics show an alarmingly steady rise in on-the-job hours logged by American workers. I can guarantee you most of those hours are NOT shouldered by upper management/CEO types. It's shouldered by the working class, a large number of which are young people AS WELL as older people. If any problem on the part of these younger workers exists, it isn't lazyness, it's disillusionment. As stupid a move as it may be (a lot of us see no difference in whether or not we make $6 an hour or $11 an hour, it's still not enough to get by on) over-spending is almost inevitable, because one way or another you'll be in debt anyways. Sure there are a good deal of jobs out there but many of them aren't looking for new graduates with little/no experience, because in the crappy economy the way it is right now, there's almost always someone else job hunting who has the degree AND the experience, and they'll get the position every time. The corporate world is caught up in a (seemingly more so then ever) greedy game of maximizing profits any way possible, and if that means hiring someone who has more experience, and thus probably reguires less resources spent on training, they'll bite.

At any rate, I don't think this thread is the correct place for this debate (if it continues.) And I don't think it's going anyplace (save for off the topic.) Someone should open a new thread for this, and if no one's going to post anything else F 9/11 related, then just let it die out :icon16: