F1 inspired by Ultima?

On another forum I'm active on I got them into a discussion on what's the Ultimate Hypercar, one user started to talk about the Ultima's as being a thnly-veiled F1.

Originally Posted by the other user
"Our top drawing office technian is under the impression the F1's chassis is a b4st4rdised version of the Ultimas. Seeing as his input was used in both cars he is probably right too."


My reply ...

And Gordon Murray was wrong ...

The F1's tub is carbon fibre. The Ultima's chassis is Full spaceframe using mainly 38mm x 1.5mm dia tube MIG welded. Panelled in 1.5mm NS4 alloy sheet.

The F1's wheelbase is 2718mm. The Ultima's is 2560mm. Maybe they share the commonality of having four wheels, but that aside ...?


Now whilst I concede that Albert and Edward were used as development mules for engine testing, does anyone know of any clear links between the marques in the development of the F1?

:2cents: Let’s face it. Some people are very myopic in their thinking :screwy: . You could hit them in the face :chair: with black and white facts and they would continue to believe what they think is right. No matter what the facts, you’ll never convince them otherwise :banghead: . It’s tough to debate with people who only see one side of the coin

Edward and Albert were test mules, nothing more. Their jobs were to test out the center-driving postion, split nose radiators, carbon brakes that Murray originally intended to use for the F1, Brembo iron brakes that the F1 would eventually derive from, the transeverse gearbox, test-run the BMW V12 and eventually the entire powertrain, the cooling system, carbon clutch, and the rear suspension. As one can imagine, Edward and Albert were uniquely different like any other Ultima kit.

The F1 is not an Ultima descendant at all in any way. Even if you take a glance at the bare chassis' of the two, they look nothing alike. It is not uncommon that manufacturers use another's car as a test mule in development. Bugatti used a Lamborghini Diablo to test out the W16. McLaren Cars, Ltd. chose the Ultima kit for this job simply because it was an ample kit car. Like a good kit car, it demands little effort to be chopped and restructured for special needs. There is really nothing or very little (if there is anything at all) that McLaren Cars, Ltd. took from the Ultima kit.

"The Heavenly Twins" is one of my favorite chaptors. :)

hmm, from what i gather, they also used an nsx as a reference for suspension set-up?
does that mean that the F1 is also part honda?
wait...the shape was drawn up by peter stevens who did work for lotus....
gasp!
the F1 is just a big rip off of other cars!

too subtle?
hmmm....
i may be losing my edge....

I'm surprised the Ultima's frame is MIG welded instead of TIG welded.

What's so strange about that? MIG-welding is by far the most common technique used for production of steel spaceframes for cars (especially for kitcars like the ultima and all the lotus 7 replicas out there, where the production cost is an important issue).

ultima is related to the f1. lee noble helped in designing both. mclaren bought ultima cars to test the bmw v12, gearbox and cooling system

not really related....
from what i heard, they used a cerbera to test the engine of the mercedes/mclaren slr (similar set up and all that).
does that make the slr related to tvr?

I'll agree with anyone who says there is no relation between the Ultima and the McLaren F1. The Ultima chassis was chosen for the McLaren test mules because it fit their needs for development testing, and for no other reason. The cars, especially the second one, "Edward", were modified from their original form to allow McLaren to test several of the mechanical bits of the F1 prior to their own chassis being ready. As drunken monkey stated, there have been other examples of this such as the Tuscan used during SLR development.

Here's a similar story that came to mind - I was able to find this quote:
"A cunningly disguised Metro van was the mule for testing the MGF mid-engine configuration and a bogus 24 hour express delivery sign on the driver and passenger doors was designed to throw prying eyes off the scent when the mule was out on public roads."

I had my own experiece of this about 4-5 years ago when some friends and I stumbled upon some modified Mercedes Benz M-Class SUVs in a fancy hotel parking lot. They were clearly test mules of some sort, with the body having been extended a few inches at the B-Pillar and both having riveted fender flares over each of the wheel arches. They were fairly subtle though, and I'm sure most people who saw them didn't think twice about them. My friends and I being "car guys" immediately knew there was something special about them, but we expected they were Mercedes Benz's own products. Imagine our surprise when we crawled underneath and found VW and Porsche logos on many of the parts in the drivetrain. What we had stumbled upon were test mules for the upcoming Cayenne and Touareg which hadn't even really been announced at the time. This made sense because within about a 15 minute drive in both directions, you could find yourself at VW's US Emissions Test Lab and VW's West Coast Design Center. Surely these test mules had come from one of those locations.

= = = = =

In regards to Lee Noble's involvement with the chassis development of the F1, I'd honestly like to hear his personal take on what, if anything, might be shared between the chassis of the F1 and his own Ultima and Noble projects. Though he worked on all of them, I suspect that the similarities are minimal given the 'no expense spared' mentality of the F1 and the relative affordability of his two offerings.

>8^)
ER

u want a rip off... drifting off topic but meh.. JOSS SUPERCAR.. somebody post a pic I am not able to right now.
look at the joss from the rear... those lights do look familliar:D
look at it from the front.. that body does look like an nsx.
Joss looks like an R390 GT1 Road Car.. McLaren F1 + NSX put into a blender but come out as unfortunate:(.. too bad its Australian.
-Mike:aus:

u want a rip off... drifting off topic but meh.. JOSS SUPERCAR.. somebody post a pic I am not able to right now.
look at the joss from the rear... those lights do look familliar:D
look at it from the front.. that body does look like an nsx.
Joss looks like an R390 GT1 Road Car.. McLaren F1 + NSX put into a blender but come out as unfortunate:(.. too bad its Australian.
-Mike:aus:


The JOSS looks more like NSX with Pagani C12. Most Cab-forward midengined cars are going to follow some sort of similar lines due to aerodynamics. Want blatant copy to the McLaren GT.. try Saleen S7 and Mosler MT900.

Mules are just mules. Vehicles used to test parts. They may be similar in a particular feature so it's easy to test a particular part(s). The final vehicle has nothing to do with a mule. Some companies will buy competitors cars and reverse engineer them.. but the mules are never used for reverse engineering. They're just easier to get and modify for testing than to build an entirely new chassis.

The JOSS looks more like NSX with Pagani C12. Most Cab-forward midengined cars are going to follow some sort of similar lines due to aerodynamics. Want blatant copy to the McLaren GT.. try Saleen S7 and Mosler MT900.The JOSS does look remarkably like an F1: the headlights; the fit lines of the side and rear body panels; the central air intake; the long, shallow-sloping windshield; the rounded back, with four F1-esque taillights. To me, it looks like a re-preportioned F1.

I can agree that the S7 looks like a blatant ripoff of the longtail McLarens.


Designed and developed by Matt Thomas and his team in Australia, the JOSS Super Car is the result of his years of experience in aerodynamic development with Formula One and Formula 3 race cars. I think they mean many years of experience staring at a McLaren F1....