Promise Keepers

Just wanted to say I went to a Promise Keepers conference.

It was awesome. I would recommend it to anybody esp. married men and fathers.

I had a great time as I learned about God, loving people, and loving my wife.

http://www.promisekeepers.org

al

Where did you go they usually put on a great conference. Would also recomend.

never heard of it

I will be going next time they have one in my area.

Great organization...life changing programs! Well worth a visit!

my dad went to one a few years back, there hasnt been one in our area for a while....

never heard of it

from reading the link, ive gathered that basically they are an organization that believes everything in the world that is wrong is a result of our "break from god" via adam (apparently it wasnt eve's fault?)
and that the only way the world will ever get back to being "good" again is if we all become rather uptight christians.

what i knew before i went to website: christian organization for men that do a lot of good restoring father/son, husband/wife, guy/community, relationships through christ.

overall: im offended that they think everyone has to become christian for the world to be what they think is good, but im sure they seek only to do what they feel is right, and they have made a difference for some people, and for that they cannot be faulted.

Don't be offended by it. Keep in mind that they are from a different viewpoint than you. It's like any orginization. They all believe that you will be better if you believe their way. What I understand about Promise Keepers from people I have spoken to that have attended is that one of the biggest things they get out of it is how to be an honorable man. How to be a leader in your home and community. Not bad traits to have reguardless of what side of the fence you are on. After all what is a man without honor?

Promise Keepers??

Haha, okay.

no clue huh?

Never heard of it, well at least that one.

{one of the biggest things they get out of it is how to be an honorable man. How to be a leader in your home and community. Not bad traits to have reguardless of what side of the fence you are on. After all what is a man without honor.}

One does not have to be apart of a church, inorder to have these qualities, or that of any organization telling one how to have these qualities..

I am sure the organization means well, so I can not judge, what I dont know, but I still believe what I believe.

DGB pretty much has the idea. You don't have to be a christian. They don't sit and preach to you the whole time about becoming one. They put the option out there and the rest is to you. A big point of it is to find out who you are and to better yourself as a man, father, husband whichever role you are in. They basically give you an idea to start with and expand on it. Might not make the most sense I am tired.

Where did you go they usually put on a great conference. Would also recomend.

Hi Indyram,

I went to the one in Greensboro NC.

overall: im offended that they think everyone has to become christian for the world to be what they think is good, but im sure they seek only to do what they feel is right, and they have made a difference for some people, and for that they cannot be faulted.

Hi Lazysmurff,

You know that brings a good point up.

A person can definetly be a good husband/father possesing traits such as, honor, love, selfcontrol, selfsacrafice, and etc. w/o knowing Christ.

I asked my friend this once, "How do you explain good marriages and such when people aren't followers of Christ?"

He answered, "Gods principals apply no matter if you are a Christian or not."

That means one can following the principals and reap benefits w/o being Christian.

Take for instance Dr. Phil one of the things he pushes is responsiblity for our own actions and not blaming others for the choices we make well guess what those principals are in the Bible too. Once someone said every sound principal and wisdom-saying can be found in the Bible. I think that is true, IMHO. Of course others will disagree, and I have no problems w/ that.

Lazysmurff, I am glad you feel you can voice your opinion. One of the things I dislike is when a person voices a view and a Christian goes off at the mouth making himself/herself look foolish in front of others.

It is crazy how the media always gets a wacked out Christain--someone that gets all emotional and doesn't think before speaking--to be interviewed (like new movie "Saved") and makes us all look bad. :iceslolan
But that is another topic...hee hee

Anyway I think I have yapped enough :)

alfred

dont get me wrong man, i've stated several times that i think christ was a great guy, and he did alot of fantastic things, i just dont buy organized religion.

i think the majority of the world really tries to live by the principles outlined in all the major religions (be true to your fellow man, dont kill, dont steal, etc) and i see promise keepers as just another way for people to do that.

but what i gathered from their site was that they feel we MUST be christian for anything to change (and fairly fundamentalist at that). maybe its not as bad as i think.

like i said, they seem to dearly be trying to make the world a better place, and for that, they have my utmost approval

dont get me wrong man, i've stated several times that i think christ was a great guy, and he did alot of fantastic things, i just dont buy organized religion.
If Christ was just a great guy, then He would be a liar. He claimed to be a bit more than that. A liar can't be considered all that great of a guy can he?

Christ is MUCH more than a great guy.

thats why I don't buy the whole muslim belief system at all... they say Jesus wasn't the son of God, just a messenger/prophet yet if thats all he was then he lived his life as a lie, which would defy the whole thing... that one point distroys the whole belief system if you ask me... thats the great thing about christianity, you can't prove any of it wrong and it doesn't contradict itself

dont get me wrong man, i've stated several times that i think christ was a great guy, and he did alot of fantastic things, i just dont buy organized religion.

i think the majority of the world really tries to live by the principles outlined in all the major religions (be true to your fellow man, dont kill, dont steal, etc) and i see promise keepers as just another way for people to do that.

but what i gathered from their site was that they feel we MUST be christian for anything to change (and fairly fundamentalist at that). maybe its not as bad as i think.

like i said, they seem to dearly be trying to make the world a better place, and for that, they have my utmost approval

Hi Lazysmurff, I wasn't getting your wrong, I know what you meant, no problem on my end.

Let me ask you this

What don't you like about "organized religion?"

Thx

Alfred

i dislike organized religion for several reasons:

1: it doesnt allow for individuality, or flexability. exactly for reasons the glad hatter brought up. apparently i am not allowed to believe christ was a great man, but not the literal son of god. what if i believe he ment he was the son of god, just as much as you or i am the son of god, and that he was god just as much as you and i are god.

2: organized religion, by definition is falible. churches are created by man, man is falible, therefore anything man creates is falible. in any translation of any religious texts, there will be things that are wrong, and the insistance that i believe these things that may possibly be wrong to be a part of said religion is ludicris.

3: organized religions have a habit of starting or causing wars.

4: organized religion has a habit of breeding hate, distrust, and bigotry of people of opposite religions.

5: as somewhat touched on above, i believe any relationship with god needs to be as personal as possible. integrating into a church takes away from that. i feel i do alot more spiritual development arguing it in here and with my friends than anyone gets from sitting around listening to someone preach.

thats why I don't buy the whole muslim belief system at all... they say Jesus wasn't the son of God, just a messenger/prophet yet if thats all he was then he lived his life as a lie, which would defy the whole thing... that one point distroys the whole belief system if you ask me... thats the great thing about christianity, you can't prove any of it wrong and it doesn't contradict itself

so you dont buy the muslim faith because it says your god was just a prophet?

id like for you to consider for a moment that maybe jesus wasnt being literal about being the son of god. also consider that jesus did somethings that didnt exactly follow with his teachings sometimes. (the money traders at the temple) he was a man, and therefore falible (see above) that doesnt necesarily mean all his teachings are therefore debunked.

thats why I don't buy the whole muslim belief system at all... they say Jesus wasn't the son of God, just a messenger/prophet yet if thats all he was then he lived his life as a lie, which would defy the whole thing... that one point distroys the whole belief system if you ask me... thats the great thing about christianity, you can't prove any of it wrong and it doesn't contradict itself
If you follow this point to it's logical conclusion, we all should be Jewish. They did not and do not believe that Jesus was a prophet at all.
If you believe in Jesus and believe the Jews are wrong, then logically you should accept the teachings of Muhammed.

Think of Islam as "The People of the Book 3.0. "

If you believe in Jesus and believe the Jews are wrong, then logically you should accept the teachings of Muhammed.That is the nuttiest thing I've read in this thread! I see no logic whatsoever in that comment. Believing in Christ on no way indicates acceptance of the teachings of muhammed.

apparently i am not allowed to believe christ was a great man, but not the literal son of god. what if i believe he ment he was the son of god, just as much as you or i am the son of god, and that he was god just as much as you and i are god.
You are certainly allowed to believe anything you want. It is just that it is illogical to think of Him as just a great guy when in fact he claimed to be much more than that. Claiming to be who HE was....and then NOT being what he claimed....would make him a liar. Not only that....but a FOOL. He DIED for a lie. If you wish to think that he was being figurative in his teachings, then I suggest that you study his teachings for yourself and come to your own conclusions rather than repeat what a few others have said. The argument has been used in the past and it has never held water.

he WAS a great guy. his teachings are that of love and friendship, with which i can agree.

where i cant agree is that he is the son of himself. that makes no logical sense. you cant be god, and be gods son at the same time (psst, this is where you say anything is possible with god, even the defiance of logic)

however, its is perfectly logical to believe he wasnt being literal, and he ment "i am the son of god" in that he, you , me, the jews, the romans, etc are all gods children (gee, wait, that fits with other parts of the bible) and also that he (and you and me etc) are all "god" in that we are a part of god (think spinoza...this is my favorite view of god)

that simply makes much more logical sense and is something i can believe, and it doesnt make him a liar.

By YOUR logic....He is a liar. He said who he was....you deny it....YOU call Him a liar. He CAN'T possibly be that great a guy then....AND He is a fool for dying for the lie. So sad for all us Christian...we MUST be destined for Hell then.

ok, stop....breathe, deep breaths now. calm down. now....

do you even read what i post? or do you just make assumptions about what you think i'll write and blindly type a reply?

it distresses me that you seem incapable of accepting this thing called "interpretation", or even the possibility of the fact that someone with a differing view could possibly be right, or that their view could work for them

i never called him a liar, nor did i say he died stupidly. i merely interpreted his words differently from you. you werent there, and niether was i, so all we have to go by is the bible. having read a few different translations of the gospel, i drew my own conclusions. i believe he was speaking the truth. his truth just means something different to you than it does to me. accept it.

i never called him a liar, nor did i say he died stupidly. If you say he is LESS that what He say he is....you are asserting that He is lying. He claimed to be God. YOU say he is NOT God. If He is NOT God....then he is a Liar. If He is a liar.....then he is ALSO a fool for dying stupidly for the lie. Does calling God a liar make you uncomfortable? You can claim that I misinterpret the scriptures all you want...but the fact is I have studied them....you obviously have not.

having read a few different translations of the gospel, i drew my own conclusions. i believe he was speaking the truth. his truth just means something different to you than it does to me. accept it.Different translations DONOT differ on the diety of Christ. The "different translations" doesn't wash. Do more than read them....actually do a study.

i think you missed the "calm down" part.

i never said many of the things you claim i did. i didnt say he was less than he claimed. i merely interpret what he said differently than you. so you've read the bible, i suggest you read and study something else as well, start with spinoza, it'll give you an idea where im comming from.

note, this also doesnt mean i think you misinterpreted it. you have your ideas, i have mine. mine are doing me quite well.

and if youve studied the scriptures (hopefully more than the king james version) you should be well aware that different translation from different languages by different people lends alot to how you may read them and what you get out of them.

either way, you, on one side, seem to have a very strong opinion about this. i, on the other hand, could really care less. so unless you have something useful and intellegent to say, and are able to type it without herniating something, please consider this conversation over.

Im not looking for an argument, im just throwing out my :2cents:

As for the part about meaning the "Son of God only figurativly (corresponding to the rest of scripture)" i can see how that makes sense.

To a point. But when I read through the Old Testament (Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc) The literal interpretation that Christ was both fully God and fully Man is a fullfillment of the scriptures. For our sins to be forgiven, the only one that could bear the burden of them would only be God himself. It is necessary to our salvation that Christ was so much more than Just a great guy and a prophet.

And you're right about how it isn't logical. You're right, it isn't. It's all based on Faith. That's what any religion or belief is based upon; I don't know of any religion that doesn't involve some amount of faith in the unknown.




But anyways, it's clear that we have different views on things, and while its fine to talk about them, I think if it's just going to be a fight we should just end the discussion.



(ok, maybe that was more than :2cents:)

Wow we have really gotten off topic. Never the less it's an interesting direction we are heading. Hopefully the mods and the thread starter will allow the discussion. If not then let's start another thread.

BTW. Good post carsuperfreak.
Only 1 thing to add. Christ said..."There is only one way to the Father".... That's through him.

i do enjoy the way its gone...and if it doesnt continue im all for another thread....

on that note, im not looking for fights or arguements about his stuff, i really enjoy the knowledge i recieve from talking about these things, and thinking about them.

and on topic: christs death. i feel that this was a way for christ to show his love for the rest of humanity. the ultimate test of faith and his teachings. if he ran away he would be running away from everything he taught his followers, and so he allowed himself to be killed, for his love of them and for his teachings.

one way to the father: through him...perhaps he ment through his teachings of living a good life, and caring for other people. isnt there one part in the bible where he's giving a sermon and says that you dont have to be a follower of him so much as a follower of his teachings?

i dislike organized religion for several reasons:

1: it doesnt allow for individuality, or flexability. exactly for reasons the glad hatter brought up. apparently i am not allowed to believe christ was a great man, but not the literal son of god. what if i believe he ment he was the son of god, just as much as you or i am the son of god, and that he was god just as much as you and i are god.

2: organized religion, by definition is falible. churches are created by man, man is falible, therefore anything man creates is falible. in any translation of any religious texts, there will be things that are wrong, and the insistance that i believe these things that may possibly be wrong to be a part of said religion is ludicris.

3: organized religions have a habit of starting or causing wars.

4: organized religion has a habit of breeding hate, distrust, and bigotry of people of opposite religions.

5: as somewhat touched on above, i believe any relationship with god needs to be as personal as possible. integrating into a church takes away from that. i feel i do alot more spiritual development arguing it in here and with my friends than anyone gets from sitting around listening to someone preach.

You know I was trying to figure out how this thread got soooo O/T. Then I realized it was me who asked, "What don't you like about religion?" hee hee :)

Anyway I think this is good discussion as long as we don't get all bent out of shape and get mad and all (pls I am not thinking of any one person, just stating).

Ok Lazysmurff, you got some good points up there. You have hit on a big point, man is falliable.

I am sure you have heard this and perhaps read, that is the reason man needs a perfect Savior/sacrafice in order to have communion w/ God, of course that is the Chrsitian belief.

No doubt man has done some very bad things in the name of religion and of Christ. We must look at Christ himself and not those who claim His name, even though those who claim His name are suppose to act like Christ. That is another topic though. :)

1: it doesnt allow for individuality, or flexability. exactly for reasons the glad hatter brought up. apparently i am not allowed to believe christ was a great man, but not the literal son of god. what if i believe he ment he was the son of god, just as much as you or i am the son of god, and that he was god just as much as you and i are god.

1: of course depends on what you mean by "individuality" There is individuality in Christiananity to a certain extent. But let me ask this, in life is there such thing as full individuality or flexability? I don't think so.

You are allowed to believe what you want but that doesn't mean it is true. And of-couse truth is the most relitive thing in society.

Christians need to learn you cannot force anyone to believe the Bible but if you want to have a good chance at showing the love of Christ and perhaps get someone to consider Jesus Christ then love sacrafically.

Matt 22:36-40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[2] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[3] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

This is the problem w/ Christainity, its followers do not love neighbors. What I mean is we hope and live the same way those who do not believe on the name of Christ. There is no need to argue someone to Christ or make them believe our way.

Just simple love and prayer for those who are hurting is what it takes.

Ofcourse we can debate and participate in good arguements (discussions) but to get mad and name call and all that mess is wrong.

Just my :2cents: :)


al

and that sums up my problem pretty nicely.

so many organized religions have strayed so much from the teachings of their gods and prophets in the name of converting.

christ converted, not by force, not by argument, not by fighting, but by example, by proof through actions.

when organized religion finds its roots again, maybe then i will begin to have faith in a church.

thank you much, you guys teach me alot in this forum.

hey lazysmurff, i dare you to go to a promise keepers event. You will see things that you never thought your eyes would see. Its something you wont forget and keep for the rest of your life. Promise keepers is a life changing experience.

never heard of it....but should i go although i'm a good son, father, husband, mentor?? or is it for men with troubled childhoods basically with no since of responsibility??

just curious..if it was explaind on pages 2 and 3...just let me know :)

....but should i go although i'm a good son, father, husband, mentor??:)
The better you are the more you want to improve. If you get an opportunity...go!

Surely the values of good parenting were the same long before the Christian church latched on to them?Caring well for your kids is a pretty simple premise.I couldn't see myself gaining anything from these meetings that I couldn't gain from a similar gathering of non-sectarian parents with the same will to improve their understanding.

Sure. But who are you accountable to other than yourself? We (Christians) are accountable to God in the end. We will stand before him and give account for how we raised the children he gave us and how we treated our spouse he blessed us with.
I'm sure there are courses outside of the Christian community that can help you be a better person and a more honorable man though.

hey lazysmurff, i dare you to go to a promise keepers event. You will see things that you never thought your eyes would see. Its something you wont forget and keep for the rest of your life. Promise keepers is a life changing experience.

like what? ive attended my fair share of "it will change your life" church programs and they all tell me the same thing.

"you may be good now, but you will never be as good as we are, nor will you ever gain access to our heavenly country club, unless you convert to christianity"

sorry, but like i said before, and like taranaki said as well, i think i do just fine in life, and if i so choose as a parent, without having to succumb to organized religion.

like what? ive attended my fair share of "it will change your life" church programs and they all tell me the same thing.

"you may be good now, but you will never be as good as we are, nor will you ever gain access to our heavenly country club, unless you convert to christianity"
I hope all the churches you have attended don't come off like that.
They shouldn't see themselves as better that you. The only difference is salvaion. Salvation is a gift that's available to everyone. If this gift is equally offered to all then how could one be better than another?
Also, does it matter what people think about who is better and who isn't?
In the end we all die. My belief is that after we die we stand before God. It's only his opinion that matters. sorry, but like i said before, and like taranaki said as well, i think i do just fine in life, and if i so choose as a parent, without having to succumb to organized religion.Anyone can be a good parent without God. Anyone can lead a good life without God. Promise Keepers is just a tool to help you be better at both. It's a good tool. Probably better than most but not necessery to succeed. It does however (as I understand it) give you a sense of accountability which most other programs don't. The only one you are accountable to after their seminars is yourself.
:2cents:

never heard of it....but should i go although i'm a good son, father, husband, mentor?? or is it for men with troubled childhoods basically with no since of responsibility??

just curious..if it was explaind on pages 2 and 3...just let me know :)

Hi BluCivic,

I think you should go you could always learn something new even if you are already a good son, father, husband, mentor, and etc.

Well, here goes my 2 cents.........If you need a large organization to tell you how to be a better parent/person, maybe you shouldn't have kids.

As for religion, I'm disappointed with the followers. I've seen so many people promise to be good on Sunday, but yet lie, cheat, steal and cuss during the week and just repent on Sunday? Why go to church if you're not going to live your convictions. Yes, no one is perfect, but to do it over and over again is kind of ridiculous to me. As one person said, church is for the weak.

Well, here goes my 2 cents.........If you need a large organization to tell you how to be a better parent/person, maybe you shouldn't have kids.
And if you have to go to a large institution to teach you to be a better Doctor maybe you shouldn't have patients.:sly: As for religion, I'm disappointed with the followers. I've seen so many people promise to be good on Sunday, but yet lie, cheat, steal and cuss during the week and just repent on Sunday? Why go to church if you're not going to live your convictions. Yes, no one is perfect, but to do it over and over again is kind of ridiculous to me. As one person said, church is for the weak.
I'm not sure what church you have ever attended but I have never been to one where we just sit around and repent during the service because of what we did all week just so we could go out and repeat the same mistakes the comming week. It may look like that from the outside but not from where I am sit.
As for being weak I see it just the opposite. The strongest people I have ever met in my life have been Christians. The most honorable people I have ever met have been Christians. The weakest people in my view are non Christians and they are the least honorable.
:2cents:

(1)And if you have to go to a large institution to teach you to be a better Doctor maybe you shouldn't have patients.:sly:
I'm not sure what church you have ever attended but I have never been to one where we just sit around and repent during the service because of what we did all week just so we could go out and repeat the same mistakes the comming week. (2)It may look like that from the outside but not from where I am sit.
As for being weak I see it just the opposite. The strongest people I have ever met in my life have been Christians. (3)The most honorable people I have ever met have been Christians. The weakest people in my view are non Christians and they are the least honorable.
:2cents:

(1)Doctors didn't create their patients.

(2)I just call it like I see it.

(3)Isn't this kind of like tunnel vision?

(3)Isn't this kind of like tunnel vision?


I quote "I just call it like I see it"

(1)Doctors didn't create their patients.

(2)I just call it like I see it.

(3)Isn't this kind of like tunnel vision?

1) It's a learning process just like parenting.
2) So do I. I see it from experience. Do you?
3) "church is for the weak" Tunnel vision?

1) It's a learning process just like parenting.
2) So do I. I see it from experience. Do you?
3) "church is for the weak" Tunnel vision?

1)While I can agree with "a learning process", what I really meant was, if you're not sure if you're ready for kids and the responsibilities, don't have them until you're ready.

2)Yes, I have experienced a lot in my life, good and bad, BUT I don't need anyone or an organization to validate my life. I admit I have faults, but others that claim to be hollier than me, cannot see their own faults and ignorances. Yes, I have seen it many times.

3)Life is full of set backs and victories, but I've handled them on my own. I don't need a sermon to teach me common sense. I've sat through many sermons and always wondered, do people really not know the simple things in life?

This can go on and on, but these are just my thoughts. Church may help you, but I can't see where I need to hear more thoughts on common sense. Heck, I've even paid a family therapist and shrinks hundreds of dollars per hour, and for what, to hear more common sense? I'm not saying church and organizations such as Promise Keepers can't help some people, but if you need someone other than yourself to validate things for you, you may have other issues.

Hi Carnut,

You are right this could go on and on (organizations telling you how to live, argument).

al