camoro or firebird

my little bro is looking for a car and he likes the pony cars from GM if their is more fell free to add (i dont know GMs) so could he get one for less then $5000$ without doing alot of work to it to get it driveable. hes also parcial to the novas and chevelles (alot of people are) thx

i'd go with the firebird because you dont see nearly as many of them as you do camarros, plus they havent really gone up in value a lot yet, from what i hear people are predicting them to start appreciating in value soon.

I wouldn't mind owning a '69 Firebird hardtop with a 455 in it or something, a big Pontiac motor anyway...

not to sound like a dick but the 69 came with the 400 motor. go with the bird they sometimes had bigger and more powerful engines than the camaro. if ur gunna look into them look into 1st, 2nd, and 4th gen cars.

not to sound like a dick but the 69 came with the 400 motor. go with the bird they sometimes had bigger and more powerful engines than the camaro. if ur gunna look into them look into 1st, 2nd, and 4th gen cars.
I know the Chevy 454 and the Pontiac 455 didn't come out until 1970. My buddy has a '69 Firebird with a pushed over 455 that is now a 468. Most of my vehicles don't have original engines anyways, so it would be my choice for it to have a bigger motor in it.

you can't go wrong either way for those years

oh alright. jeez a 468? how much hp and tq is pumping out of that thing

It has enough, I don't know the numbers on it. It's been balanced and that's it. Headers and normal things like that. No real modifications to it...

Avid Mr. Anti-GM here...
At least you could spell CAMARO right....
:)

"I wanna get a Kumero someday..."

yea those qumeros are perty nice aint they :eek7: but thanks for the help i like the the body of firebird better anyways

I hear that.

They're called "F-Body" for a reason... A Camaro is nothing more than a poor man's Firebird. No comparison in the quality and style, and if you leave the engines stock, it takes a big block Camaro to touch a Firebird 400.
I don't know where the information comes from, but the idea that Firebirds are cheaper than Camaros must be pointed at the '82-'92 POSs. You'll pay a big price for a nice '69. You can forget finding a '67. They've all been gathered up...

I don't know where you get your info -- but you need to find new, more accurate sources! If you think it takes a big-block Camaro to outrun a 400 Firebird you don't know what you're talking about!!

I get my information from 30 years of experience, four years of college, 20 years of street racing, and in general, an expert in things automotive. You? Do you testify in court, in both civil and criminal trials as an automotive expert? I do. Do you rebuild more than 50 engines (of all makes) per year? I do.
Have you ever driven a '69 Camaro with with an LT1 in it? I have. Have you driven a similarly equipped '69 Firebird with a 400 in it? I have. You must notice I said "stock" engines. The Firebird will run away and hide from the Camaro. Once modified, the playing field becomes a bit more level.
You obviously love Chevys. It's okay. It takes all kinds to make a world. But your choices in life aren't necessarily the know-all/end-all. I can build a nasty small block. Part of my job. I can also build a nasty Pontiac, Dodge, Rambler, even a Ford! I like Pontiacs because they wreak of performance and subtle class. Ever look at a '70 Chevelle SS dash? Then look at a '70 GTO dash? One looks like Grandpa's Buick. The other has guage pods, full intruments, a hood tach (the original "heads up display"), real (not plastic) wood veneer, and on and on. Chevy is a good car. It just isn't the ONLY car...

Wow, veeery impressive!! :eek: Oh, sorry, I meant your egos need for self-aggrandizement -- not your car-smarts! :iceslolan

Look, we could argue about this forever and never change each others opinions. I am not a Chevy lover blinded to the truth as some on this forum. In fact I have owned more Pontiacs than any other make by far. I was around in the sixties, and have owned a bunch of cars from that era, including Firebirds and Camaros. My best friend, then and now, owned two Z-28s. Our cars were not showroom stock -- I didn't know any guys back then who went to the track without at least headers, carb work and the distributer recurved, and tires. Without at least these mods no cars from the sixties were fast -- at least not the ones accessible to the average guy. No Firebird 400 ever -- EVER -- outran my friends '69 Z-28! And he weighed 260 lbs.! Yes, it would bog down off the line, but by the middle of second gear he would have caught them, and it was all over! And you know what? The sad part is that car never ran better then 13.8s at about 104! Most cars from that era are now highly overrated.

The degree of misinformation that is put forth as gospel is ridiculous! When I watch American Muscle Car I want to pull my hair out. They talk about how certain engines were underrated (HP) for insurance or other reasons. Hogwash! Even this forum is guilty of this. Check what it states as the "unofficial" horsepower rating for the Z-28. That's right, 360 to 400!! And then look at the quarter mile times and MPH. Doesn't chive, does it?

Anyway, you have your experiences and sources of information, and I have mine. Neither of us are going to change the others mind about Pontiac or Chevy engines. I agree with you that Pontiacs were more upscale and better styled, in and out. But Poncho engines were heavy and didn't rev and pull like Chevys! (That is, of-course, with similar mods. I'm not saying you couldn't make a Pontiac run hard -- it just took more work and money.)

Oh, and I almost forgot! A '69 Camaro with an LT-1, hugh? I would hate to have you testifying as an expert for me!

Its Funny That Someone Preferred The Fb Rather The The Cmro Due To The Body Style. In Both The Diff Is So Suttle That If You Didn't Know What To Look For, You'd Have To Wait Until The Ass End Was In Frt Of You.the Sheet Metal From Yr.to Yr. Pretty Much Interchanges!the Diff.comes From Under The Hood!

Whats To Compare A B.o.p Motor To A Chevy?

You Know I Own A 68 Tempest Custom Stock W/a B.o.p 350 & 2-spd Powerglide.but I'm A Chevy Girl All The Way. If You Know Motors You'd Know That A Chevy 350 Blows The B.o.p 350 Out Of The Water!

From late '69 through '72, Chevrolet Division produced a 350-horse 350 CID engine found in Camaros and Chevelles, known as engine LT-1. This is NOT the same as the mid-90s LT-1. It came with the solid lifter cam part number 3972178, sporting 242/254@.050 duration, .438/.460 lift on a 116 LSA. There were other cams that came later. Some are referred to as "Z-28 first design and 2nd design". The heads were the 041 castings, with the Wieand-made dual plane high rise intake, similar to the old 365 horse 327 intake, "TRW" pistons and "pink" rods. All of these engines also had the 1182 forged crank, and a Holley carb. Good performers. MUCH better than the 302s (cubes equals power).
GM is now using another old designation for a modern power plant (LS-6). In '70-'72 (and later over the counter), LS-6 was the 450 horse 454. Good runner, but hardly the modern LS-6.
I had a '70 GTO (in '73) that went 12.63 @103 with headers and a Holley, 3.55 gears and the obligitory Muncie 4-spd (only girls drove automatics in those days). It was a 400. That was at Orange County in California. I heard all the BS about Pontiacs blowing up and not making power. True enough, if you tune a Pontiac to make power like a small block, it will both be a stone AND die a horrible death. BUT... If you do a little research, and tune the Pontiac to make power where Pontiacs make power, it takes a TON of small block (read: $$$) to catch it. Smokey Yunich knew it. He built both. He actually had a "stock block" small block FINISH (the only one, ever) the Indy 500. It didn't win. But he also built the Pontiacs that finished the '62 season as the single most dominant year of any one manufacturer in both NASCAR and NHRA.
Why is it Chevy boys get so nerveous and defensive when the talk turns to Pontiac? I'll give you the point on cheaper...As with my business, we have no quarrel with who sell for less. They know the value of their product. PAX

What is a b.o.P. engine? Are you refering to the three very different 350s of the unChevy variety? If you own a '68 Pontiac with a 2-speed and a Pontiac V8, it isn't a PowerGlide. It's a 2-speed alright. It's a Super Turbine 300, and shares nothing but shift pattern with PowerGlide. PowerGlide is a much better transmission for racing, especially in lighter cars. ST 300 is a very tough transmission, but very heavy and does not lend itself well to high performance applications.
Slothboy, I see you like the 350 Chevy. I advise against putting it in that Tempest, as you will undoubtedly be disappointed with the performance of the small engine in such a large car. If you MUST run a Cheviac, at least do the car justice by using a big block. Be prepared to get your doors handed to you by a Pontiac, though! (:-

Well, Mr. Wiseacre, er -- I mean MrPbody, this is why I suggested you find a better source for information. You stated you had driven a '69 Camaro with an LT-1. And now you quote a source stating that the LT-1 was produced from 1969 through 1972. (Obviously thinking I was unaware that Chevy had used this engine designation previously.) Well, I was around in those days, I have owned Camaros, and my best friend owned two '69 Z-28s. We were always talking about how we wished his Z-28s had the LT-1, instead of the DZ-302. Alas, the LT-1 was not offered till 1970. I suppose you could say that, well, you had driven a '69 Camaro that had a retro fitted LT-1 but... Anyway, even though it is obvious you know far more about cars than most on this forum, some of what you write reads as if you might have taken lessons from that reporter who worked for the Times!

Oh, and it was also offered in the Corvette from 1970 -- 1972. But rated at 370HP (in 1970).

Mrpbody Your Choice And Format Of Words & Part #'s And So On May Have Other People Fooled. Who Are They To Question Such An Inquisitive Looking Presentation. Your Confusing Your Facts,maybe You Should Do A Little More Research.i May Be A Girl But I Know What Im Talking About. If Im Not Postive About Somthing I Won't Come Across As If I Did. I'll Research & Understand It Before I Go By Word Of Mouth & Make It So I Understand It.im Not Sure How Old You Are Or What Your Profession Is But If Cars Is Just Your Hobby Maybe You Should't Be So Critical. Or Maybe You Feel Threatened Because Im A Girl. It Must Be A Pride Thing

The B.o.p Motor Was The Less Fortunate Gm Motor. They Called It The Bop Because It Was The Most Common Engine That Most Of The Buicks,oldsmobiles And Pontiacs Came Stock W/. Notice I Said Most. Referring To Your Comment On The Pon.chev. Post. Remember All Of The Above Are Manuf.by Gm.
When Your Trying To Find Parts For A Pontiac Eng The 1st Question Tey Ask Is???is It Pontiac Motor,and Thats Determined By The 5th Character Of The Vin #!

Slothboy, What exactlky IS a "boP motor"? Pontiac, Olds and Buick all had different engine designs than Chevy in the muscle car era. They were all different from each other, as well. Nothing from an Olds 350 will fit a Buick or a Pontiac, and so on. The truth is, before the late '70s, there was no such thing as a "BOP Engine". Since then, ALL GM cars have shared (except Cad and some Olds models).
You should do your parts research somewhere other than Advance Auto or "the Zone", as those guys aren't parts people, they're computer terminal operators. One does not need a VIN code prior to '79 for most applications, simply because they (the engines) were all different.
When trying to find parts for a Pontiac engine, for them to ask if it's a Pontiac would be redundant. All good parts people know the difference between a 400 Pontiac and a 400 Chevy. You might want to find the "old guys" in your town and learn from them, rather try to adapt the old car world to the modern one.
1g1yy, I fail to understand your point. The Z cars had 302s. MANY '69 Camaros had 350 and 360 horse engines. I suppose there were no Z-28s in '68, either. I read your post where you were "not bashing Pontiacs, but...". You obviously carried a Chevy mentality into the build , or you wouldn't have been dissatisfied with the results. There are many different methods of making power. The two approach it from completely different philosophies.
I build engines for a living, and I live okay. I could do better, but I choose to not lie to customers or cheat them out of their money. I won't belabor the point anymore. but understand I'm not here to put you down or to make myself look important. I share real world information to help stem the rising tide of myth and superstitious bullshit this hobby is loaded with. And if you still think Pontiacs don't run, I've got a customer with a daily-driven '65 GTO ragtop that would gladly illustrate how slow his car is... Unless you run mid-11s (no adders), you'll get a bird's eye view of his tail lights! And no, it isn't a monster 455. Actually, it has a hydraulic, flat tappet cam and 3.73:1 gears and is a smaller CID.

MrPbody,
My point was that you stated you had driven a '69 Camaro with an LT-1. Since LT-1s were not offered in Camaros till '70, you either "invented" this experience or remembered it wrong. Either way this is a discussion dealing with accuracy and facts. Your "mistake" on this point calls into question the accuracy and facts of other aspects of your posts. (Though I will be the first to admit that I agree with the overwhelming majority of what you have to say.)

As I said before, I like Pontiacs and I know they can be made to run. But I also know that to get a '65 GTO into the elevens requires major head work, etc., etc.

Anyway, I am outa here!

It's about time that those guys who took all this acid in the sixties would be having their relapses by now...

I'm just kidding, but this is pretty dumb. This is a message board and you guys are fighting like idiots on it. Remember, it's just a message board. You guys don't need to fight each other and put everyone down like that...

1g1y, I suppose I went off "half-cocked" and for that I apologize. I DO remeber driving many Camaros (worked in both dealerships and independent repair shops in SoCal during the early '70s). If my vernacular is innaccurate, I will refrain from it in the future. We called most 350s with solid lifters, 041 heads, aluminum (factory) intakes and 11:1 compression "LT-1". Maybe '69 had a different designation for the engine. It was a good engine, though.
And yes, just like Fords, Chevys, Dodges, Ramblers (AMC for the younger set) or any other car of the era, it takes a ton of work to get ANY car into the 11s. To keep things in perspective, the vast majority of Chevrolets today, that run hard, have aftermarket heads on them. Many have aftermarket blocks, too. Why is it considered negative to have a Pontiac with aftermarket parts on it, too? It takes good parts to make anything run well. In olden times (just for you, bleeddodge), all any of us had to work with were factory-produced performance parts. In a class where factory manifolding and valve train are required, you need a big block, usually around 454+ cubes, to outrun a 400 Pontiac. Once the aftermarket variables enter the picture, Chevy gets an advantage due to sheer volume. It would be foolish to say the small block isn't a good performer. In some applications, it is absolutely the best. But in other applications, there are superior designs. The Pontiac really shines in a heavy car at street speeds. BTW, the car I refer to is Rick Holladay's '65. It runs 12.0s consistently. With a 4-speed manual, he won three bracket races in N. Carolina last year, and goes several rounds on most occasions. Who says you can't win with a stick?? And to top it off (no pun intended), he runs a '66 TriPower unit. It would probably be a couple tenths quicker with a good Holley and Torker.
What has changed here is the availablity of high-end performance parts of modern design, for the Pontiac. You can look at the Edelbrock catelog to understand this. There are heads for the Olds (one version). There are no heads for Buick. There are no Victor intakes for Olds OR Buick. There are three part numbers for the Pontiac heads, and there is Victor, in both 4150 and 4500 flanges, just like the Chevy! (Thanks, Vic, Jr.!).
I post on other boards and am usually more subdued. I will try to be non-condescending and accurate in all details in the future.
One last thing, slothboy, please stop saying your '68 Tempest is the same as a '69 GTO. The only body parts that interchange are the hood (if yours was a GTO), the front and rear glass, and MAYBE the front bumper. Other than that, there are few parts with the same number. And a Tempest is NOT a GTO, even if it were the same year. There was overlap between models in '64 and '65, but from '66 through '71, GTO was an independent model of the Pontiac version of the GM A-body. It again became an option on LeMans in '72. And I'm still waiting for a specific definition of what a "boP engine" is/was...

Hey guys, I have a brilliant idea! Let's stop debating if a camaro or firebird is better, afterall, they are both great GM products. So in theory, let's just take out the ricers together as american muscle fans.

-Matt
By the way, I have a 3.8 liter Firebird so yes, I am neutral on the topic. Have a good one!

Bad Bird,
The debate is not about the later Cheviacs and T/A wannabes. It's about the difference between a Pontiac and a Chevy. In the muscle car era, they were two completely different packages, sharing only fundemental parameters, glass and some sheet metal.
Pontiac guys get defensive because we've always been in the "shadow" of the Chevy, being treated like red-headed stepchildren of GM. Chevy guys get defensive because they're always looking over their shoulder, wondering "Who ARE those guys?" Chevy guys are also nerveous because of the resurgance of Pontiac power. In the muscle car era, Pontiac led the way. In fact, the last NHRA fuel class champ that wasn't a hemi, was indeed a Pontiac (Arnie Beswick, Funny Car Champ, 1971). And that was a true Pontiac V8, not the BBC bottom half/Pontiac top half that dominates NHRA Pro Stock today.
Only a fool would say you can't make a Chevy outrun a Pontiac at the highest level, but the same fool would say you can't make a Pontiac a VERY capable street performer, making more power at usable speeds, than a small block.
Your '99 doesn't count, as it has the corporate engine, and the only true identity the car has is the body. Same is true of the new GTO, though it's quite a capable performer right out of the box. It's a bit lighter than your F-body.

i do belive that my question was which could be made drivable with $5k$ so you guys can stop this crap. you guys can constantly tell eachother which one is better but you both wont listen so just stop.

i agree with the bird lets dis on the ricers they think there the shit anyways. oh and i have a question. my bro thinks his eclipse ('90 runing 15 psi of boost on full exhuast) can take a 1989 mustang with full exhuast and 2 grand under the hood? dont start going off on this one too guys it just makes thing easier.thnks

Then why did you mention it if you don't want them to fight? That was a stupid idea.

true dont answer my other question we will find out tommorow

Cuda and all others, expecially the girl who does not like BOP350's (giggle!) go get a Camaro. Save the Firebird for someone who knows what they are doing and can appreciate what they have. These message boards are like CB's in the 70's, everyone gets to be smart and georgous over the air until you see them in person and realize they are 500 lbs with missing teeth. Alot of people find it easy to be expert at something and can give advice without ever having to see or talk to the person again.
I won't attempt to defend Mr. Pbody here because quite frankly he does not need it. All the information he has posted has been on the money 100% correct. The Super Turbine 300 is a two speed tranny similar only the Powerglide in the fact that is a two speed. Different case, converter, clutch packs, etc. And yes a ST300 is whats in the 68 Temptest if it came with a V8. Powerglide has become a generic term like "Coke", I have been guilty myself of calling any two speed a powerglide.
A word of advice, Check and Verify, take all information with a grain of salt, research it and verify it's correctness. Oh yea, and learn to recognize a true expert in his field not a computer geek or armchair mechanic.

So what does the dash of a 70 stage one look like?? It will eat any 70 pontiac or chevy. 400 ponchos are strong motors. I personally feel pontiacs only seem to run good with pontiac parts in them. Don't think I've ever seen an lt1 in a 69 camaro. Thought they came out in 1970. Didn't run as good as the ones in the vettes. Those lt1 vettes in 1970 would eat any 400 firebird.

Vinman, either your information is ancient or you simply aren't paying attention. Pontiac is NOT the also ran or point-prover car like the Olds and Buick. Right from the beginning of GM's involvement in racing, dating back to the mid-50s, Pontiac has been a dead-serious performance company. Contrary to popular belief, the most sophisticated pieces for racing made by GM in the muscle car era were not Chevrolet. But, due to the monetery power of being the top seller, some of the best Pontiac stuff was suppressed by GM with Chevrolet Division pressing it. The Ram Air V project was killed shortly after the '68 GTO equipped with one went mid-11s on street tires. The hemi project was not even allowed out of the lab, but did manage to make a splash by making the cover of Hot Rod in March, 1970. The 455 SD was the last gasp of muscle from GM in the '70s. Ther current BBC heads used in Pro Stock (and dominating) come from Pontiac Engineering. The Brodix Track 1s from the '80s in Cup cars came from Pontiac Engineering.
I know I've heard the stories about Stage 1s in the past. I even saw a couple of them in SoCal in '74. Neither of them could touch my '70 Judge w/Ram Air III. While there may have been one or two Stage 1s that were fast, the majority were not. While there may have been some GTOs that weren't fast, the majority were. And there were 10 Ram Air cars made for every Stage 1. There were 10 GTOs made for every Ram Air car. Do the math. A low-production monster doesn't qualify. .
In today's muscle car world, nothing is as it was. Chevies almost never have iron heads on them. Little by little, that's happening with Pontiacs, too. There are currrently four different companies supplying aftermarket aluminum heads for the Pontiac, both for street and competition use. How many aftermarket heads are there for the Buick 455? I know of zero. I would like to know, though, so if you know of one, please post it. And there are more and more Pontiacs coming back to the track with the Pontiac engine, as new competitivve parts are provided by the aftermarket. The Pontiac has been out of production as long as the Olds and Buick. Why are there not a boat load of goodies for the Buick if has such great potential? Because it doesn't. T/A Performance in Phoenix makes some great stuff for the 455 Buick, but their cars are a second slower than equally-pumped Pontiacs. Mondello is still beating the Olds horse. You can get more from the Olds than the Buick. And there are exceptions to every rule. I have no doubt, somewhere, someone had a Stage 1 that went 12s with no changes but tires. I've not seen it. But I've also seen literally dozens of GTOs that would do it. Don't foolish about performance. If you like the Buick, great! Maybe you can find one and save it for posterity. But don't let your emotions and "brand loyalty" cloud your judgement. I love GTOs and am a loyal Pontiac fan, but I'm not stupid about Chevrolet or certain Ford and Mope offerings. I know one can build a small block to be very good, and for less moey. I also know, to get a small block to make power at street speeds, like an oval-port BBC or a Pontiac, it takes a TON of money.
One last thing. I've built several 455 Buicks, and even more Olds. So it isn't out of ignorance I say the things I say. It's from real life experience, and not what I heard from my uncles's friends cousin...

I'm not trying to start a pissing war.I had a 79 formula with a stock 455 out of a 71 firebird. That was the best running big block with low compression I ever owned. No other could touch it. It just seemed to me to me the engine pontiac built ran better than being tinkered with. If it was tinkered with, it had to have parts from pontiac. I might have prehistoric thinking, oh well. If there are great aftermarket pontiac parts out there that's great, they don't make the motor any more. Sorry, buick stage ones used to beat up on all things I ever saw , including hemi's. I'm not saying the ponchos didn't run( and I have seen a lot of guys that do) just saying they're few and far between. Buick, mopar and olds big blocks are gone,,,,,,, so is pontiac.How much is in a pontiac pro stock motor???

Vinman, only in the past three weeks, a new book was released concerning the building of a "max performance" Pontiac. When I spoke to the publisher, they wanted to know what was up with the "Pontiac Crowd". Apparently, the book was sold out before it ever left the dock (5,000 in the first printing, 2nd priniting has already been approved). They said the only book they've ever sold any quicker was the one on the new 4.6 Ford DOHC. Now, THAT'S a current 'performance" application.
As the conversation progressed, something was said to the effect of Pontiacs being in the same category as the Olds and Buicks, as "point provers" and "also rans". They accept now, all the talking going on over the past 25 years (since the Pontiac V8 was removed from production) about how Pontiac would still be a competitive race engine hinged on the production of current technolgy parts. That is now coming back around,as there are plenty of aftermarket race-only parts for the engine.
Also, many of the Chevy-powered GTOs and Firebirds from the "dark ages" (of no parts) are coming back to Pontiac power.
I would have to dispute the claim a Stage 1 would beat up on a Hemi, an LS-7 OR a Ram Air V. Otherwise, Buick would still hold records in the stocker classes. You know, like the AMC AMX?
A little trivia. What powered the last NHRA fuel class champ that was NOT Hemi powered? Yup, a Pontiac (Arnie Beswick, Funny Car champ, 1971). Nothing Chevrolet, Buick OR Olds had the power potential of the Ram Air V "Tunnel port". The heads on Arnie's '63 421 SD were those!
Current offerings from Pontiac Division include the heads used by the top Pro Stock teams. Yes, it's true, the bottom half is a BBC, but it takes some forward-looking engineers to squeeze the most out of 'em!