maybe its time we left afterall....

reported on msnbc of all places.

an article outlining just how many of the iraqi's want us gone. if we insist on spreading democracy, maybe we should listen to the majority.

damn, forgot the link: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5217874/site/newsweek/

the only problem is that we're stuck between a rock and a hard place, on the one hand, yes mayb ewe should pack it all up and leave right now. But if we did do that, and the new iraqi government fell apart, I think the US would take some blame for "not making sure that their government was stable" or something like that. So I don't know if theres a good solution to this problem....

and when the government falls apart even after we stick around to make sure its up and running?

like ive said before, people who know more about the area than myself, have said to expect a 3 way civil war within a decade of our departure.

A decade? you think that long?

Iraq will never be a western style democracy.To continue with the notion that anyone can force a country divided along religious,tribal and feudal lines to magically transform into what they see as a corrupt and decadent society is just plain nuts.

Already,there have been many acts of civil war.Once the troops are withdrawn,there will be many more.Their presence in Iraq only serves to suppress the realities of the Middle East.

By deposing Saddam,they have ripped the lid off a can of worms and haven't a clue how to fix it.America has no business in Iraq and time will prove that George Bush's interference only resulted in more suffering for Iraqis and more terrorist attacks for the world.

decade yes, because apparently, the higher ups in Iraq (the guys we put into power) will try to hold things together, will call the US back to suppress the rebellions, and it will go like this until they and the american public and government realize its useless to try anymore...apparently, this should take about a decade.

Whenever the new Iraqi government is set in and we leave the country to govern itself, the whole country is gonna collapse into anarchy. We are gonna be in Iraq for a long time.

Hell let's leave, the innocent people will get killed and all it will leave is the crooks, and terrorists.

Hell let's leave, the innocent people will get killed and all it will leave is the crooks, and terrorists.


:rolleyes:


We can't even take care of the crooks and terrorists that sit in our corporate boardrooms, and government buildings, and you're sitting there worrying about another country's? You want their oil too?

Yeah, conservative that you are...just like Bush.

Hell let's leave, the innocent people will get killed and all it will leave is the crooks, and terrorists.

Newsflash for you flatrater. The US isa there now,and civilians are getting killed now.Particularly those civilians who work with the occupying forces.How many members of Bush's puppet Iraqi government have been assassinated so far? The unelected collaborators and sundry expatriates that Bush has bussed in to take 'control' of the country are nothing more than a bunch of stooges.Iraq will not settle on its new leadership by American decree,or by pseudo-democracy[you cannot claim to have democratic elections if you are going to ban the candidates that America deems unsuitable]

I raq's future will be settled in the manner that is customary to the region.The stongest tribe will lead,and the strongest of the strongest membeer of the strongest tribe will lead absolutely.Anyone who thinks that America can force them to do it any differently had better have a good supplier of body bags.

Iraq may or may not break out into civil war. The talk about why with the disparaging tribes is laughable in the sense that the same holds for almost all countries. The Kurds in Turkey. The 100+ factions held together in China. The Soviet Union (and they went their seperate ways fairly peacably). Quebec Canada, which has twice tried to leave the federation (and may succeed someday). If Iraq were to break up (and I don't think thats a bad thing in the same way I don't think its a bad thing that the Soviet Union did) It would probably break into at most three pieces and more likely two. The Kurds have been on their own for over a decade and would be fine. The Shite and Sunnis have their differences, but can get along well enough. The people who are looking to make the country unstable don't care about who's in charge, they care about creating chaos. Right now, the different factions are playing diplomatic gamesmanship to try and mold the government and constitution as favorably to themselves as they can. No surprise there at all. Even if there was no difference of opinion (which we know is impossible) the people trying to create and expand the chaos would continue.

I wish I could say this in a better way, but I am so bored with people whining about us being in Iraq and being a catalyst in the deaths of people over there. When Sadam kills hundreds of thousands it was none of anyone's business. When hundreds die trying to disrupt the formation of a government, its the US's fault for disrupting it in the first place.

Thousands of people are dieing in Africa in a handful of civil wars right now. Ethnic genocide. Millions are being displaced. Disease and tregedy on scales that have rarely been seen. Where is the outrage over the warlords there?

I'm ticked off about it. I wish the people who had a vested intrest in the region would stand up and look out for those hundreds of thousands being killed every decade. But, they don't. I'm sure when someone does, there will be some upheaval to those countries. At that time I expect those who've been remaining quiet to start whining about the instability and deaths that are being caused. Again, not by the people doing the disruption, but for the people who are there to stop the slaughter.

There are pleanty of pessimists on this board. Any claims that a civil war will break out is pretty much meaningless. As I said before, many countries have had them and many more still will. However, what about the claims of tens of thousands killed in the battles? What about the millions diseased and dieing of starvation? I remember those claims too. They were wrong.













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Newsflash for you flatrater. The US isa there now,and civilians are getting killed now.Particularly those civilians who work with the occupying forces.How many members of Bush's puppet Iraqi government have been assassinated so far? The unelected collaborators and sundry expatriates that Bush has bussed in to take 'control' of the country are nothing more than a bunch of stooges.Iraq will not settle on its new leadership by American decree,or by pseudo-democracy[you cannot claim to have democratic elections if you are going to ban the candidates that America deems unsuitable]

I raq's future will be settled in the manner that is customary to the region.The stongest tribe will lead,and the strongest of the strongest membeer of the strongest tribe will lead absolutely.Anyone who thinks that America can force them to do it any differently had better have a good supplier of body bags.
Duh, flatrater. Can't you see Taranaki can see into the future! He can obviously see Iraq's future right this moment! :screwy:

Duh, flatrater. Can't you see Taranaki can see into the future! He can obviously see Iraq's future right this moment! :screwy:


maybe he is just not blind to the facts. like so many others.


i ask you erricer what gives america the right to tell any one how to run their country seeing as they are the sadest display of democracy in the world.

We'll leave, but it won't be for a while. Even if Bush isn't re-elected, there's so much shit to clean-up over there it will continue long after his Presidency. I doubt there will ever really be peace over in Iraq between anyone. One group believes this, the other that and neither wants to give either way because both feel they are right.

maybe he is just not blind to the facts. like so many others.


i ask you erricer what gives america the right to tell any one how to run their country seeing as they are the sadest display of democracy in the world.We have the right to do so if we feel a country threatens our citizens! We have the right because we will actually do something about it. driftu what country are you from?

i am in canada. the only threat is what the ones they cause for themselfs. if it was terrorism it was cause what they did in th 80's early 90's. or if it is a government job. it makes no difference now. what does matter is that people i know may die cause baby bush wants to earn his stripes.

is it worth it?

:rolleyes:


We can't even take care of the crooks and terrorists that sit in our corporate boardrooms, and government buildings, and you're sitting there worrying about another country's? You want their oil too?

Yeah, conservative that you are...just like Bush.


Yes I share alot of beliefs with George Bush I can't agree more with you. I also share some beliefs with Clinton like gettin a hummer while I am working.

Do I really care about Iraq, to be honest with you I can care less. But since we did invade Iraq just or unjust we are stuck there. Not like we can up and leave watching Iraq fall into a civil war which would be no better them letting Saddam stay in power. the innocent ones are the ones that get killed if we leave or stay, I am against needless death of innocent people (don't confuse this with the deaths of the guilty).

Sheez, can't people open up their eyes long enough to see pass the bull crap.

taranaki's post (#4) couldn't have been better said. I totally agree with him. The reagion is not and will not accept such a drastic change in style so quickly. To many power hungry sides.

Yogs said
Thousands of people are dieing in Africa in a handful of civil wars right now. Ethnic genocide. Millions are being displaced. Disease and tregedy on scales that have rarely been seen. Where is the outrage over the warlords there? The reason, cause theres no oil. The connections that Cheney/Bush have with the oil countries to to great to just let them fall into the hands of any succeeding faction. So they concoct this lie of weapons of mass destrcution to go in. Now I agree theres horrors in Africa and elsewhere in the world, but nothings done unless theres a interest in the region. Iraq is its oil and a place to finally put US bases in one of the worlds most hostile regions.

erricer said... We have the right to do so if we feel a country threatens our citizens! We have the right because we will actually do something about it. Really,, news to me that they were a threat to us. So far all accusations of them being threats to the US have been downplayed for the simple fact that they are not true. The ones that attacked us on 9/11 and other countless terrorist attacks to our embassies and US personnel through out the world was Al-Qaida which were stationed in Afganizstan not Iraq. So how is Iraq a threat to us. It was a lie just to get into Iraq and take control. Even Bush Senior said it would be a mistake to go into and invade Iraq. but little Billy Bob Bush wants to play and act tough and invades the country thereby putting us in more debt, more lives lost and worst giving Al-Qaida the biggest "sign up and be a terrorist and hate America" campaign that they could have ever dreamed of. Open your eyes people. We have more problems right at home. The bad thing is we are so much in the crapper that no matter who is in the whitehouse it would takes us decades to get out of the debt and the bad reputation throught the world.

i am in canada. the only threat is what the ones they cause for themselfs. if it was terrorism it was cause what they did in th 80's early 90's. or if it is a government job. it makes no difference now. what does matter is that people i know may die cause baby bush wants to earn his stripes.

is it worth it?

Uhh....Isn't Canada there too?

Sheez, can't people open up their eyes long enough to see pass the bull crap.

taranaki's post (#4) couldn't have been better said. I totally agree with him. The reagion is not and will not accept such a drastic change in style so quickly. To many power hungry sides.

Yogs said
The reason, cause theres no oil. The connections that Cheney/Bush have with the oil countries to to great to just let them fall into the hands of any succeeding faction. So they concoct this lie of weapons of mass destrcution to go in. Now I agree theres horrors in Africa and elsewhere in the world, but nothings done unless theres a interest in the region. Iraq is its oil and a place to finally put US bases in one of the worlds most hostile regions.


:disappoin You missed my point by a mile. The reason there is no outrage has nothing to do with oil. There is no outrage because the US isn't associated to the violence. People are outraged that people died because the US deposed Saddam. Few and far between give a shit what happens to these people - they only care about who's doing it.













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This war for oil thing is so catchy that people are actually starting to believe it.


If we wanted oil, we could have drilled in the arctic, just as Bush proposed two years ago. We wouldn't have a gas shortage and we can pump twice as much oil a day as we are recieving right now from the Middle East. But, once again, the tree-hugging liberals of this country to the rescue. So, by saying this war was for oil, you are in effect saying that all those opposed to drilling in the arctic were responsible for this war.

Perhaps we wouldn't have to even think about drilling in the Arctic if the average American car buyer possessed a brain, and some common sense.

Perhaps we wouldn't have to even think about drilling in the Arctic if the average American car buyer possessed a brain, and some common sense.

LOL, while that is true, it is also the people's choice to buy whatever they want, just as we have the right to free speach.

yes, drill into the artic. actually, not a bad idea, but at this rate there is only 1.5 years worth of oil there anyway.

and i really think, given the peak oil crisis we're about to face, it was a war for oil. not for oil profits, or to make oil exec's richer, but to control the oil for the american people. keep in mind, the dead sea contains huge untapped oil reserves, and the only reason we havent taped them is because we cant run a pipeline through the region without protection, and we cant protect it in a country we dont control. enter iraq, and next, saudi arabia. Really, i dont think were looking for profits, i think we're looking for control of the oil, in order to (in 40 years or so) control the worlds need for the oil. replace opec with US

theres a reason bush was in three months of hard meetings with all the top oil execs before he had been in term for six months

Uhh....Isn't Canada there too?


yes, and we wouldn't be there if the US weren't so war happy

yes, and we wouldn't be there if the US weren't so war happy


No American twisted Canada's arm to come to Iraq! Canada wasn't forced to come.

the pacts and treaties we have with america have nothing to with it. we are tied to them like we were tied to british empire.

LOL, while that is true, it is also the people's choice to buy whatever they want, just as we have the right to free speach.

Yes, but let's put it into this perspective. You've just turned 21, now you have the right to drink. But does that mean it'd be smart or responsible to then drink non-stop until your liver implodes, your intestines disintegrate, and your brain turns to mush? The only difference is, that when it turns from self destructive drinking, to wasting gas, you're not the only one affected, one persons choice effects everybody who uses oil, so you are in fact to a very small degree impeeding the rights of people in the future to have access to plentiful and cheap oil, because of your own selfish decision to waste oil, if you do waste oil. :2cents:

the pacts and treaties we have with america have nothing to with it. we are tied to them like we were tied to british empire.

There are always 2 choices. You can't blame America for every one Canada makes good or bad. Unless you really want to be called the United States of Americanada.

There are always 2 choices. You can't blame America for every one Canada makes good or bad. Unless you really want to be called the United States of Americanada.


this is true. but i can blame the american government for starting a war that is unjust and my government for signing our coutry away to the americans.

america government has abused smaller countries for so long. it was only a matter of time. and wait it will only get worse.

This forum is fantastic in identifying the general pessimists and optimists among the membership.













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This forum is fantastic in identifying the general pessimists and optimists among the membership.

That's just plain stupid yogs. Someday this whole forum is just going to blow up and we'll all be dead. :mad: I'm optimistic about that outcome. I'm an optimist. :icon16:

this is true. but i can blame the american government for starting a war that is unjust and my government for signing our coutry away to the americans.

america government has abused smaller countries for so long. it was only a matter of time. and wait it will only get worse.

What countries have the Americans abused that didn't deserve it?

BTW The Americans have treaties and pacts with the French but that wasn't enough to bring the French to Iraq so why is Canada in Iraq?

this is true. but i can blame the american government for starting a war that is unjust and my government for signing our coutry away to the americans.

america government has abused smaller countries for so long. it was only a matter of time. and wait it will only get worse.

Then it sounds like you have a delema. When it's time to pick a new leader again in Canada you need to look for a canidate that has a backbone and not a yes man. What I'm saying is don't get angry at America for mistakes your government and the voters of Canada make.