The End Of Sports Cars????

recently i've heard that hydrogen fuel cells or some form of electric motor must eventually replace the gasoline engine in the next 20-25 years since gasoline occurs in a limited supply. interestingly, the few cars that already have these technologies have been shown to produce practically no engine noise. though this may be ok for economy cars, having no more distinctive engine noise may ruin a huge part of the sports car experience. imagine never hearing the racecar-like wail of a ferrari v8 or the monstrous growl of a lambo v12; it would be like taking away a part of the very soul of sports cars!!! has anybody else considered this possibility????

I've never heard the sound of a real ferrari or a lambo...

Back then, a sports car was a 2 seater, 2 door convertable, with only necessities and no cd player, and all this crap...

Now we call something as luxurious as an M3, a sports car, or a turbo'd civic coupe a sports car...

The word "sports car" pretty much has no meaning anymore... Sports wagon, Sports SUV, Sports sedan, Sports coupe... It's all a marketing scam...

Back then, cars sounded like shit, I'm sure later we all will appreciate the noise of electric motors when they REALLY improve. I just hate going through another god damn era...

We folks in the open wheel racing community, you know - backwoods guys from towns like Rossburg, Ohio and Williams Grove, Pennsylvania, have had the answer to fuel for performance cars since the 60's.

We race on methanol.

i know that most people all these civics and hatchbacks as being sporty cars but there are still many people that enjoy "real" sports cars. i mean even relatively cheaper sports cars like the z4 or s2000 are fun partially because of the sounds their engines produce (though i would in no way compare these cars to porsches, ferraris, etc). anyways i'm not debating what the definition of a sports car is but all i'm saying is that many cars that people enjoy today are so good partly because of their wonderful sound (and yes i have heard them in real life so i know how good they sound). i'm just afraid that soon enough those musical engine will die away.

and also regarding methanol, though it is an alternative fuel source, hydrogen still makes more sense in the long run because its emissions are only pure water, and zero emission is what auto manufacturers desire in the end. but hydrogen of course would have to be either cooled dramatically to liquid state or compressed highly as gas for use in automobiles and so methanol would be easier based on existing infrastructure.

let everyone go to hydrogen...
more gasoline then for me ;)

I saw this thing on tv a month ago.. it was a fuel cell car against a viper srt-10 and the fuel cell car beat it

thats all bullshit. the internal combustion engine will never be replaced there is no markt for soless sportscars. How much did that fuel cell car cost? Not a very fair comparison, maybe a McLaren F1. The real problems of the future are not alternative fuel sources but the lack of resourses to make products. All the tech in the world wont make up for lack of resources. The build up of of tech that we have acivied today and in the future will be rendered useless.

shconer:

There was a time when people doubted that the internal combustion engine would take off. And assuming that it "will never be replaced" lacks imagination and a sense of history. The price of a fuel cell car today is not the point because this technology hasn't had the money invested in it that the internal combustion engine has...and isn't in volume production.

Fuel cells are the current direction of the automotive industry...and are probably the next technology to replace the ICE.

I don't mind not having the awsome noises, well yea I do...:( but can a fuel cell really beat a viper? What kinda of horse power am dtorque are we looking at?

It takes more imajnation to forsee the future of cumbuston engines today than a fuel cell will ever. Cumbustion engines have endless possabilites and as far as I can see we have only begun to see what the comustion engine can do, the fuel cell has already reached its technaolgical feat of being a orverglorified battrie the only revalation it has to grow to is its srinking size. Dont get me wrong fuel cells are the future of possiable zero emissions transportaion, but a fuel cell vehical will never evoke the same emotions that a Ferrari will, or a tunners 700hp Supra. Electric motors have an enherite ablitity to produce maxamum torque at very low rpms. While the viper is definatly a fast car its a relativly low performance engine, 500 hp out of a 8.3L is only 60hp per liter. Plus what kind of test comparisin was this, cargo space?

Shconer:

It's "combustion."

Nope...the ICE is nearing the end of its efficiency. ICEs are inherently inefficient and dirty.

Fuel cells have MORE potential torque than ICEs. Fuel cells run with electric motors powering the wheels, and they have lots of torque...and at 0 rpm. Fuel cells are a bit over-hyped at the moment, but that will come to pass. You're assuming that fuel cells are "emotionless," but they'll have a huge following after they become production realities when enthusiasts realize the torque and capability of electric motors.

Until the fuel cell becomes production-ready, ICE/electric hybrids offer much more performance potential than stand-alone ICEs.

Horsepower/L doesn't show the performance ability of the car very well...just the performance efficiency of the engine. The Viper on the whole is a top performer and a valid comparison in any performance test. My assumption is that performance wasn't compared on a hp/L rating, since that's apples and oranges to a fuel cell vehicle.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware of the that grammer was a big deal here. I belive that your wrong. I belive that the combustion engine is far from its peak effeciency especially in the form of desial. The desial engine is breaking new ground this year, with many new engines coming to the U.S.A. on it's introduction of higher grade desial fuels. This higher standard has been offered in Canada for some time now. Canada will be getting the first new V-10 desials from VW in North America. The new desial is not only more effecient by allowing higher cyclinder pressures and heat tolarances, but is inherently cleaner, both in the form of emissions but also airborn particulate matter, or the terriable soot. Witch adresses both of the problems. Desial engines also create far more torque per size than electric motors do esspessially with a fuel cell configeration, with similar characteristic of low RPM torque. I also belive that as engine managment systems further evolve and make use of there capabilities that this to will play a more important role than it already has.

Technically, no motor creates any power when it's not moving, sorry. If they did we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm not assuming that fuel cells are emotionless. I'm shure they will have there own group of enthusiasts who equally could care less about performance and more about saving the forest, Movie stars and the like. All I said was that, "There is no market for soless sportscars" and, "A fuel cell vehical will never evoke the same emotions that a Ferrari will". What I meant was that while fuel cells have emotion of there own, it is far different from that of a sports car, further supporting the argument that not only will the, "The internal combustion engine will never be replaced" but esspessially not in a sports car.

Hybirds are not only the biggest automotive let down, but are a complete joke as far as fuel economy goes. The only benifit of a hybrid is it's Super Ultra Low Emissions. Tell me why I should buy a Base Honda Civic Hybrid for $29 510.00 CND that gets 4.9 / 4.6 L/100 KM city/hi-way, when I can buy a VW Jetta TDI for $26 900 CND that gets 4.6/6.2 L/100 KM city/hi-way for $2610 less, and pay less of the fuel to boot, and for what ever it's worth I personaly know that the TDI's rating are under rated. Not only that, but will the hybrid start and run when I wake up and it's under a foot of -30C snow? I also seriously question if a fuel cell will either.

I am aware that "Horsepower/L doesn't show the performance ability of the car very well" thats why I said, "While the viper is definatly a fast car its a relativly low performance engine" I'm also aware of the fruit situation. My point was that if someone is going to compare a super fuel cell vehical, why not use a super combustion engine vehical as it's opponet. Otherwise, seems like a geneticly modified apple and an already sqeezed orange.

what if auto manufacturers made most of their family sedans, vans, and cheap compacts fuel cell driven cars and made sportier cars using the combustion engine (though not with gasoline)? if the combustion engine could use natural fuels such as soybean and natural alcohols, the problem of limited gasoline/fossil fuel supply would disappear. in addition, the sports car segment is a relatively small percentage of the whole range of cars and so even if natural fuels create some emissions, overall it would be far less than what is being produced nowadays. and regardless of what anyone says fuel cells/electric motors ARE EMOTIONLESS. i have seen in car footage of electric vehicles and although some of them are fast as hell, the sound is awful......i dunno about you guys, but when i floor my car, i don't want it to sound like the buzz of a computer booting up. the sound not onnly adds to pure auditory pleasure, but it also improves the sensation of power and speed.....when you hear a buzzy 4 cylinder engine, you think high revving and zippy......when you hear a big american v8, you think massive torque and raw, brutish power. all i can pray for is that auto manufacturers (at least the ones that make good sports cars) realize how important the sound of the engine is and do everything in their power to keep it

The reason why we like the noise is because it sounds fast, if something like a 50 HP Honda sounded like an F1 car, but a real F1 car sounded like de-tuned rusted out civic, don't tell me that the 50 HP honda is music to your ears, because we all know that it means something, and it means speed.

Think about it, what underpowered POS engine would ACTUALLY sound good? You all like the sound of Ferraris because they have gobs of horsepower.

When people started inventing firearms, we all thought it was "emotionless", but look at us now, we all use it, and now we don't say it has no emotion, some of us even have quotes and names engraved on our pistols.

Just accept the fact that it is inevitable, I think it is nice to have something that doesn't pollute and kill things. The only thing I hate about the electric cars is the amount of computers it will be loaded with.

yes, the computers will make the cars hard to work on.

the claim that people only like a certain sound because those type of engines tend to be powerful is wrong. ask anyone whether a v12 aston martin or a dodge viper sounds better.......sure, the viper would kick the shit out of the aston and it even sounds more powerful because of less sound deadening and more of a brutish, harsh tone.....but the aston v12 sounds gorgeous in comparison to the viper. another example, the 911 carrera. everyone knows the z06 and the viper are much faster than the porsche, but nevertheless the porsche flat-6 is one of the best sounding engines ever in the eyes of many car lovers. don't be so quick to dismiss the music an engine makes.

I have lots of friends that like the viper engine sound, people who like muscle car engines, like the sound of a powerful muscle car. If you like high revving engines, then you like powerful high rev engines.

Yes, it is because it sounds fast. I don't care if a viper can smoke an aston, the fact is, they are both fast. Tell me, what POS engine actually sounds good? Why do you think people try to imitate the engine sounds by putting on a big muffler and exhaust tip?

i'm not saying that there aren't people who love the sound of powerful muscle cars, but there are also many people who enjoy other sounds better......and if you want 'relatively' lower end cars that sound good, why don't you try a 350z or an m3? you're only talking about four-banger POS cars in comparison to muscle cars but you never mention any other engines like a v6, i6, v12, etc.......and also, not everybody is concerned with sheer power......when you take handling feel into consideration, many people don't want a car that simply sounds brutish and pulls like a rocket......they want something light, easy to throw around, and many times something with an engine sound that stirs the soul.....i mean the standard porsche boxster doesn't even do below 6 seconds from 0-60 but many people still love the engine sound.....unless you're tone deaf or something, you would realize that to a given person, certain types of sound are percieved as harsh while others are more pleasing. saying that simply the acceleration of the car makes the engine sound good is like saying that a beautiful woman who sounds like a dying dog has a wonderful voice simply because she looks beautiful. don't just discount any engine smaller than a v8 or v10 because i guarantee there are many people who enjoy some of the 6 cylinder engines as much as i do.

yes, the computers will make the cars hard to work on.

you might be right and you might be wrong. I think if it is goinf th way it seems to be going you might just be able to connect the engine computer straight to your computer and change it right on your computer and put it back in your car and it will done. when cars first came out they seemed so hard to work on that everyone took it to a mechanic to fix it. Now look at us...I know 12 year old kids that can completely take apart a engine and rebuild it and put it back together. The computer engines are just a little set back that people need to learn to work on their cars. I will learn them when they become the "Usual"

Computers already have the upmost control of any new engine. Just about everything nowadays is controlled through sensors monitored by the CPU.

I also see that there will eventually have to be a replacment for the ICE (its obvious really). Fuel cells seem to be a foreshadow in whats to come.

An ICE engine as far as I'm concerned is likely nearing its potential. To think that they only manage to consume no more than 30% of the fuels usable power to create actual work, there is a lot of room for improvment. Then there were turbos. Taking part of that lost heat engery (which constitutes for approx. 35% of lost energy) and converting it into usable energy. If anything were to be a new, it have to come from some way in creating usable energy from energy absorbed through the coolant system (another 35%).

The only problem lost is the soul from the ICE. But hey, thats why our childrens children are going to be making fun of us 'old timers'. I can already foresee the most common joke...................... Hahaha, your dad is older than the INTERNET :lol2: :lol:

I've never heard the sound of a real ferrari or a lambo...

Back then, a sports car was a 2 seater, 2 door convertable, with only necessities and no cd player, and all this crap...

Now we call something as luxurious as an M3, a sports car, or a turbo'd civic coupe a sports car...

The word "sports car" pretty much has no meaning anymore... Sports wagon, Sports SUV, Sports sedan, Sports coupe... It's all a marketing scam...

Back then, cars sounded like shit, I'm sure later we all will appreciate the noise of electric motors when they REALLY improve. I just hate going through another god damn era...



Dude, that's hilarious! Well said- and damn funny.

LONG LIVE THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE!

just fill it with hydrogen and make it go pop.....

fuel cells for the masses and poppers for the enthusiasts!

it's not that bad, early petrol ICE's sounded pretty crap and poppy too!