Used 944 pricing...... with cooling fault!

I am trying to negotiate a deal for a 1987 944 with a cooling problem.
I'm not familiar with these cars but am real handy with a wrench. I have tried to find some sources for used parts at local salvage yards without much promise. Can I pursuade someone out there for some insight as to what I might be looking at as far as repairs.

This vehicle has a few dents, the inop odometer, inop side view mirrors, R134a converted A/C inop and I did look for the rear hatch detachment as I had learned from information that I learned at this site. Yes, I did see a space forming at the hatch forward frame to the glass. The car has a problem with the cooling system that is beyond the sellers ability to comprehend, repair, or width of his wallet. His stated mileage is about 88,000 miles..... who knows.

I did the CO2 test at the coolant tank and showed positive. (I'm not sure I did the test correctly as I stated I am unfamiliar with foreign automobiles, the sealed coolant system with the tank) The coolant tank did not show signs of crazing or bulging. No oil in the coolant tank, I had seen the fans turning slowly another time, but they didnt run at this look/see. The radiator and hoses stayed cool, although the temp guage rose somewhat quickly towards an ultimate overheat that we didnt let get that far. I didnt note any steam at the exhaust.

His story goes that a german repair station told him radiator or head gasket. A second opinion confirmed radiator so he took it to bob's radiator for a discount. They couldnt keep the temp down after a new and told him head gasket so he had them replace the old, where at that point they had fan problems..... but they finally got them turning (I wonder what the fix was)(I see the kid cheaping out on them after the radiator didnt fix the overheat and them having to put back in the old radiator all unhappy especially when the fans got ugly)I dont see any evidence of a fan hot wiring job...

I would love to own, drive and maintain this type of automobile. It seems that I should be able to afford this if I'm able to keep the temperature down to a safe level. If I am to be able to drive Porsche now in my financial situation, I'm going to have to start with a project and rely on my aircraft mechanic skills and abilities.

All the other discrepancys I stated before I am confident that I can manage. I am asking for your help in possible scenarios for this cooling system problem, other checks that I should do to confirm or disprove your theories, possible sources for reasonably priced used parts, and if possible what you think this car might be worth. I am in eastern Florida.

Thank you for your anticipated responce!
Kurt

**PS. While the car was running I remembered to look under the oil fill cap for paste/oil/coolant. (none) I did experience a noise that sounded like fuel injectors ticking(not the lifters) slowly develope and I put my hand over the fill hole and there was vaccuum.... I found this peculiar. Any insight about this?

If the headgasket went bad, you would have some sort of oil-water mixing. Pull the dipstick and look at the oil, if it looks like chocolate milk, since the headgasket was replaced, you will have to re-seal the oil cooler attached to the oil filter mount. Sometimes, a PITA but very doable w/ a little/lot of patience.

Engine overheating, try this, burp the system. Where the top radiator hose goes into the engine, there is a bleeder screw. Unscrew the bleeder screw and squeeze the upper hose, close the bleeder screw. If you get air, the system wasn't bled properly and this could easily cause your overheating problems.

If no air, the thermostat is probably jammed. Bigger PITA.

Look at www.clarks-garage.com and click on workshop manual. All of the processes above and MANY more are described there in detail.

Unless it's real cheap, find another example. there are plenty of well maintained examples in Florida to choose from. It doesn't depend on your budget cause if you get a cheap 944 w/ lots of problems, you'll spend twice as muchmoney fixing it up than if you bought a nicer, better maintained one.

Thanks for your words! I just spent more then an hour or so reading over at clarks-garage, Neat stuff! I'm guessing I've probably got some incureable bug or something If I dont pick up that car I'm sure to get one eventually.

Before I read about the thermostat being secured into the water pump I suspected that it was located under that 90 degree spout at the top of the head and could have possibly been inside an air bubble that wouldnt allow it to function properly.... I guess its not quite like the Chevy Vega I had as a kid. I am going to try to understand more about what is and isnt happening with this car. I'd like to have it for a thousand.

Confirm for me please....
-A/C off, radiator temp switch closed (hot) I should get one fan on..... with or without the ignition on.
- A/C will actuate the other fan unless...... some (what) sensor realizes that the coolant is very hot and requires extra airflow? What controls the second fan to run for "emergency" airflow with the A/C off?

Is there somewhere I can get a schematic that shows all pertinant systems that control those cooling fans? If their not working properly, she's gonna overhe.........oops,

I guess I have to get the radiator hot before I start to worry about removing heat. Can I pop off the hose and remove/ run it without the thermostat for diagnostic purpose?
I do greatly appreciate your help........
Kurt

-A/C off, radiator temp switch closed (hot) I should get (two) fans on..... with (high)or without (low)the ignition on.
- A/C will actuate the other fan unless...... some (what) sensor realizes that the coolant is very hot and requires extra airflow? What controls the second fan to run for "emergency" airflow with the A/C off? (the sensor on the radiator is a thermoswitch that kicks in low @60 degrees, high @83 degrees, it activates both fans)

Oops, there's more

schematic, it's for an 84, but it's better than nothing: http://www.pelicanparts.com/944/electrical/944_electrical_diagrams.htm
I suggest you copy and print out all the sections, tape them together. It'll make life a lot easier.
Pop off the hose, get a pair of Master Cylinder snap ring pliers (ill see if I can find a picture) and learn some new four letter words. Now, you're not supposed to run w/o a thermostat but there's a grey area for diagnostics. Good Luck!

How much does he want for the car?

Thanks for the info 83-944, I need to talk the kid into letting me have the car here at the house for a mechanics inspection over the weekend. I do like the airframe oops, body style, the way it drives, etc. I'll have one someday, but I am considering what was said about finding something from a more conscientious owner with records. I really appreciate that from an aviation point of view. In my quest for knowlege and parts, I have seen a few for sale that are at least in driveable condition for 2-3 thousand where as I'm talking in the 1K to $1200 range for this one. It seems like a well built vehicle and I'm sure I can learn the nuances of its maintenance...... I'm not scared!

The front bumper is pushed in on the passenger side and the rh rear quarter has a crunch and SHE OVERHEATS! Think it worth a thousand?

Master Cylinder pliers,,,,, the cir-clip pliers? the innies and outies? with the pins? :)

How about the temp switch in the radiator...... two or three contacts? I remember seeing it but I think its only a two contact device. (as installed on this vehicle) Remember, bob's radiator shop was trying to get out of a deal gone bad with this seller....... When I saw the fans turn they were painfully slow which led me to suspect that "bob" might have monkey wired the fans and I was thinking that he almost might have wired them in series (6 volts each) by their slow speed ..... I am aware that there might be a two speed circuitry... (you confirmed that)

I still should get the heat to the radiator 1st. I will pull the thermo to verify circulation (if the bleeding doesnt cure it) then I can observe the cooling fan operation and go from there.

My Carbon Dioxide test at the tank was flawed. I should have purged the stale air from the tank first by filling it to overflow, then lowered the coolant level to create an air pocket for the CO2 to form in.... thus getting an accurate test (Snap-on overheat diagnostic tool).

Wish me luck! (or tell me that I'm silly)
Kurt

MC pliers : these
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/163369thermostat_snap_ring.jpg

Thermostat switch:
two contacts, early models [ground - high]
three contacts later models. [low - ground - high]
If you only got two wires, oh boy.

you may also have luck w/ a small pair of needlenose pliers with makeshift tips ground down.

hey, does the coolant level go down when you pressurize the overflow tank? If so, then there is another air pocket inside the cooling system being compressed. Don't forget to open the heater valve to the cabin area.

Thanks again, I have a few versions of those circlip removal tools, I dont suspect that I should have a problem removing it........ haha ignorance is bliss!

Thats a great idea about the coolant level under pressure. I havent had a pressure tester for diagnostics myself. I understand about the possible bubble and the coolant level. I'm going to get the "beer keg pump kit" from a friend and try the bleeding procedure. This vehicle is 1987 N/A and I suspect that it should have the high/low thermo-switch. (three contact) Is there really a ground at that switch or is it.....
line(battery positive (+)),
low load,
and high load
Your right, the schematics are hard to follow without printing and taping together, I must do that.

Now when we're talking 60 degrees for low speed fan and 83 degrees for high........ thats celcius? I was puzzled that the thermostats opened in that range and later realized that we must be talking in metrics.

Looking back at the thermo switch I can see how they could wire it so that the power goes to the fan and then to the radiator thermoswitch which will choose:
A: open contact........................no fan
B: low resistance to ground........ High fan
C: higher resistance to ground.....low fan

My friend told me once " If its an electrical problem its gotta be the battery or the wires" (just a memorable quote) :)

Keep Me Thinkin!
Kurt

Another question please.......

Which direction does the water flow? From the pump, through the radiator, and back into the top of the head?

Is it possible that the waterpump could not be circulating without any other symptoms (leak out of weep hole (if it has one), squeal, seized, wobble, etc..)

I'm not familiar with automotive engineering other then chevy or ford... an occasional dodge. I also dont have the car here so I can look and experiment.
I'm trying to learn what my diagnostic steps will be so I can figure it out next time I can get my hands on it.

83-944 you have been a big help! Thank You!

sorry to go off topic here, but you did mention that you might prefer a car that was better taken care of/with records....how much do you have to spend? I have an '87 944 in great condition that I might be selling - records, lots of new parts etc...I also have some pics. This one's worth a bit more than the one you're looking at though...

Yeah, the degrees are in celcius.

Yes, it uses ground, like you're thinking.

water flows to pump (when thermostat is open) - engine - out top to radiator - back to pump.

The impellor is plastic on some water pumps so it may have broken loose from the shaft. I believe that's what your thinking. If the thermostat is closed, the water pump will pump water through the heater core still. Run the car w/ the heater on and see if it blows hot air. Let the engine warm up first, duh.

Go back to Clarks Garage, look up clutch inspection. If the clutch is nearly worn out, find something else. The clutch job costs 1 week and about $500-800. It is the most in depth maintenance job for the car.

Cheese head...... triple square.......????

Are these the bolts that I used to get with my Hooker Headers? The ones that take either the 12 pt socket or the 12 pt box wrench......? or something completly different.
Do tell......
Kurt

To make it simple, look at your 12pt socket, that's kinda what the head of the bolt looks like. Think of it as a double torx head. You'll need the cheese head socket, you cannot use a torx bit, you WILL strip the bolt and bend yourself over.

When you said the clutch takes one week and 5-8 hundred dollars....... did you mean about 40 hrs my time AND $800 in parts? -or- 5-8 hundred at the shop and a weeks down time( riding the bike in the rain)

Of course driver sympathy counts but just what kind of mileage range can someone expect out of a clutch..... I see that you are a flatlander too (Florida) so its not like we're climbing the smokey monutains often... could I possibly expect say 60K mileage from that clutch job (if done right)

You Wrote:
water flows to pump (when thermostat is open) - engine - out top to radiator - back to pump.
sorry but I am hazed........

(thermo open/ engine normal temp)Water is in in the block-- goes to the pump--passes through open thermo-- to bottom of radiator (driver side)--to top of radiator (pass side)--to top of cylinder head (back into the block enroute back to the pump)

AND

(thermo closed/ engine warming)Water is in the block--goes to pump--goes to closed thermo-- circulates through cabin heater core-- back to somewhere on the cooling circuit to engine (enroute back to pump)

Thanks for your wealth of knowlege!
Kurt

(thermo open/ engine normal temp)Water is in in the block-- goes to the pump--passes through open thermo-- to bottom of radiator (driver side)--to top of radiator (pass side)--to top of cylinder head (back into the block enroute back to the pump)

Backwards. Water is in the radiator, goes to the pump, goes through the block, spits out the top and back into the radiator.

(thermo closed/ engine warming)Water is in the block--goes to pump--goes to closed thermo-- circulates through cabin heater core-- back to somewhere on the cooling circuit to engine (enroute back to pump)

Yes! Do you see a solid metal pipe just above the exhaust manifold? That's where the water is coming from the WP to the cabin heater core.

You do the work on the clutch, really you can get it done in a weekend, but they always fail on Monday for some reason! The $500-800 includes:

1) Clutch kit @ $420 (you'll want spring center over rubber center, less failure rate)
http://www.vertexauto.com/epcproductdetail.epc?cookieID=19A15CG16&subcatid=0121&catid=118&clientid=vertexauto.com&clientid=vertexauto.com
2) Rear Main Seal @ $20
http://www.vertexauto.com/epcProductDetail.epc?cookieID=19A15CG16&vehicleid=0000406&sku=99911342641&clientid=vertexauto.com
3) 12pt Star Tool , (cheesehead, triple square, double torx, whatever) Local Auto Parts Store, $30
You'll need the 12mm (flywheel) and the 8mm (CV joints) ones.

Total cost so far is $470, so add $30 for bandaids and beer! You'll need a friend to help w/ tranny install, suspension dropping and beer drinking

Thanks for the clarification on the cooling circuit flow and the clutch info..... I will have to measure in the clutch inspection hole as per your directions to Clarks Garage info.
I hope the seller and I can come to an agreed price that we are both comfortable with. I can afford to maintain something in descent condition but can't fall down a bottomless pit.
Thank You for your guidance and insight.
Kurt

Well, the seller is moving this week and this is my last opportunity to own this legend. I had some spare time to give the beater a little bit of time and lovin.

I was able to get a burp out of the upper goose neck of the cooling circuit (bleed a bubble) with the heater on high and still blowing cool. I found a solenoid looking thing behind the center of the engine with a pulled vaccuum hose....... Is that a heater controller? I held it open for a few minutes but the cabin never did get hot.

The cooling fan did run for a bit this time. The upper and lower hoses got hot. But......... I wasnt able to feel any heat at the radiator (extending my fingers down from above) I think I might be on the verge of the overheat problem with the bleeding of the system, then if the heater is controlled by a vaccuum valve there is probably more air in the system that can be purged. So that might do it?

I did a clutch inspection and it measured about 7/8 inches.. I beleive that is within limits as I think worn out is aproximatley 1.3 inches and new is .7 (7/10th) inches. (per my limited millimeter to inch ability)

I think I'm gonna buy it and take a chance.....God hates a coward.

That's your heater control valve.

When it opens, retry burping the system.

If the in cabin heater doesn't get hot still, you may want to try manually pulling a vacuum to check for flow

I ownnnnn it.....

Kurt
6-29-04
20:19

Woohoo, Congrats.

Your wallet will never be fat again!

Just kidding!

It sure is a neat little car.

I spent a few hours with her today. I took your suggestion and pulled vaccuum with my hand held "Mighty Vac" on the heater controller. I saw the valve articulate...... at least the diaphram is good. I ran it for about 20 minutes at idle, cracking the bleeder screw to burp coolant bubble... She didnt overheat, but I didnt get cabin heat either, beleive me.... I tried.

So at idle, the temp rose to just under the redline but I never got a hot light. I ran the idle up to about 3000 and propped the pedal with a paint stick for a good ten minutes. At first I saw a good drop in temp (to about mid range) and then gradually climbed, but again not into the red zone. I had only the left fan running on high. After the run up and idle cool down (another 5 minutes), I shut it down and put the ignition back on to see temp and both ran hard. Then both slow for a minute with ignition off.

I figure with ram-air of tooling around lake Okeechobee the radiator is gonna be more efficient but then the added load of haulin my ass, she'll probably pop a hose...... I guess there is only one way to find out.....Road Test!


I'm embarrased to say I didnt catch that I was running a flat 12 volts when I was pre-buy. So I guess I take a bath on an alternator or regulator. I guess I was distracted by the cracked head, clogged radiator, and bad water pump. X-shoot tommorow...

My Vertex catalouge #17 was in the mailbox when I got home.....

I never seem to have time AND money at the same time........

Is there an approved coolant system flush for aluminum engine/radiator?

That reminds me, you're in S Florida.

www.944online.com is in Ft lauderdale and carry many "used" and rebuilt parts for relatively cheap. migh tbe worth a drive. They have regulators for $45. Much cheaper than a new alternator.

To get to the alt regulator:
0) disconnect battery
1) remove the airbox
2) two screws hold the reg in
3) Remove wires.

1 hour work to replace unless you break something so PB Blast everything.

Cool, you anticipated my next question.........

Can you tell me about the field circuit? Does the regulator ground the field to excite or does it provide power to excite. I have yet to find the alternator, I figure its under the stock air box with a rubberband connected to it.

VerTex has a new regulator for 54.00 I also have a local shop that will provide some alternator components.... I've not been in a bosch before....if it is a Bosch. Alternator rebuilt..... @)(>)).....(i mean) 209.00!!

I think my boats going to sink when it stops getting its monthly cash injections.

I'm gonna start a new thread..... seeing that the purchase price of a cooling faulted 944 is moot at this point.

Reply here then hopefully I'll see you'all on the next page!
Kurt
Stuart, Florida 34997

Total cost so far is $470, so add $30 for bandaids and beer! You'll need a friend to help w/ tranny install, suspension dropping and beer drinking

What is this suspension dropping that you speak of???!??!!!? when I did my clutch I never even took the wheels off..

Day 3 of Lovin.........

I got another big burp out of the cooling system...(about three quarts)

I got the heat in the cabin and all the vent valves working...

Compression test (cold/dynamic) 180psi within four revs then 190 max all four cylinders... no variation! I did it twice.......

Sparks all consistant color pattern (cocoa at anode/cathode sooty around the edges)

I hear some loose crap, heat shield, or rats, etc.... possibly the alternator consuming itself (thats just the way life is sometimes)

Overall I'm thrilled........ I think I stole it although I'm cautiously anticipating finding a major FUBAR. Less then that I will probably find the kid and send him a dollar or two.
:) :) :)

Thank You for your help!
Kurt

What is this suspension dropping that you speak of???!??!!!? when I did my clutch I never even took the wheels off..

Oops, i pulled the torque tube out to replace it at the same time as the clutch. Please disregard the suspension bit. Thanks for pointing it out though.