The Battle

You have $500 and you want to place a bet on a race, but before you even consider to bet any money, you need to look over and get more information on each car.

The first car you look over is a 1996 Toyota Supra, first thing you notice is the HKS front mounted intercooler and you find out that this Supra is equipped with a HKS T51R single turbo. This turbo can make huge power. This Supra has a long list of HKS parts, including BOV, VPC, 272 Cams, Exhaust, and Boost Controller. The car also has RT Down Pipe, PHR 5/8 Satin Fuel Rail and 850cc Seimand Injectors. The list goes on for this Supra, which is also rolling on 18 inch Volk SE 37s and Nitto Tires. You’ve seen this Supra before, and know it’s making some where between 700WHP-800WHP and easily hits 10s all day at a drag strip.

The next car you check out is a 2003 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. You notice that this Evolution has some serious work done to it. You hearing rumors that this Evolution may be the fastest and quickest one in the USA. The front mounted intercooler has been replaced with a big Greddy front mounted intercooler and intercooler piping. You check under the hood and there’s a Greddy T67 25G Turbo waiting to spool. The car is also equipped with HKS Racing Suction Kit, HKS 272 Cams, HKS Adjustable Cam Gears Tannabe Ultra Medalion Exhaust and Tannabe Turbine Tube Down Pipe, Greddy Boost Controller, Greddy BOV, Greddy 600cc Injectors, AEM EMS ECU, Fidanza Light Weight Clutch, HKS GD Max Clutch and more. You now see why this car may be the fastest Evolution in the USA, EVOs with less modifications have layed down 450AWHP to 500AWHP and run low 11s and high 10s, this EVO could be making more than 550AWHP and 10 second 1/4 mile slips.

Now you set your sites on a 2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra. Stock these cars come equipped with a supercharged 8-Cylinder making well over 300WHP. You start a conversation with the owner and find out this car is no where near stock and the stock supercharger has been replaced with a Kenne Bell Supercharger and Kenne Bell Pulley. The engine management is taken care of by a Diablo Chip. Stock air filter has been replaced with a K&N air filter. Magna Flow X-Pipe with High Flow Cats and a Magna Flow Exhaust replace the stock unit. For extra spark, there is a MSD Ignition System with NGK Iriduim Spark Plugs. Also this car has 55Lb Fuel Injectors from Apten and a RAM 900 Clutch. What does all this mean, well the owner tells you 648WHP and consistent 10s in the 1/4 mile.

Last car you check and possibly the wild card is a 2002 BMW M3. It’s the wild card because it’s not known just how much power or how fast it is, this car also has the least amount of modifications, but it could still be lethal. First off you notice that this M3 is supercharged, with Active Autowerke C38 Supercharger. This car also has GruppeM Titanium Exhaust System, GruppeM Ramcharger Intake, and Conforti Shark Injector Engine Management. Not a lot, but maybe enough to push this M3 over 450WHP.

So who would you bet on, who do you think would win? This comparison is different, it’s an attempt to see how cars stack up to each other when tuned. If you know tuning, you should know that the car with the more power doesn’t always win.

This is a tough choice for me, for all the cars would be really fast. I'm favoring the Supra and Cobra more because it is a 1/2 mile race, but I also know that when an EVO is tuned it can gain alot of top end power and easily hang with the Supra and Cobra. Also an EVO recently ran a 10.9@132MPH and I believe that car was just shy of 500AWHP, a 550AWHP+ EVO would be a mid to low 10 second car. So that's my choice.

I'd bet on the supra.
it probably won't pull quite as much as the cobra, but it'll probably have a better, faster launch.

oh well, it probably depends on the driver. a supra with a T51 and 850cc injectors and on the other side the V8.
hard decision, the longer I think about it, I won't bet/race beforce I saw both cars launching :icon16:

cu

The guy on the Office chair....

responding your own thread already? thats funny!!

I always choose the American V8 in a drag race.

^What he said. Although on the other hand, the Mitsu would get the best launch I would think, if the Supra or Cobra spins/bogs too bad out of the hole they won't catch it, my money's still on the Cobra however. Either way this sounds like the goddamn fast and the furious, get this shit on tape.

i would go with the supra because it does have a lot of high-end power. but then again the cobra was made for dragging. and then again, the evo has awd so it would get a great launch. so after thinking, it is hard to see which one would win.

responding your own thread already? thats funny!!

Still crying I see

Well my bad, guess I thought I'd do something different than the old what do you think is better ENZO or Carrera GT comparisons.

the supra definitly will get the win. its alot more aero dynamic then a cobra is. also with such a large single turbo conversion it will have monster top end. the combination of the 3

1: more aero dynamic ( its known that to go double the speed you need 8 times the hp depending on the frontal area of the vehicle and the co efficient of drag of the car ) so the supra has this part down.

2: more hp. which helps even more in the top end.

3: power delievery of the a large single turbo vs. a linear power band of a super charger

the supra's making that kind of power has been known to take out super charged vipers on the highway and twin turbo 5.0's on the highway. almost nothing can top a supra's high end. since this is no ordinary 1/4 mile drag they will approach speeds of around 160+ mph. the Cobra will take the lead on till around 80mph that is when the supra will finally hit full boost in 3rd gear. then the supra should walk the cobra all the way to 160-170mph.

there are also videos floating around with a 650whp cobra vs. a 550 whp Z06 vette and the vette took it on the highend. same reason the vette is more aerodynamic and is lighter. all though the supra is heavier then the cobra. its more sleek and plus its got around 100 more whp.

the supra will definitly win this.

i think i'd go with whatever vin diesel is driving...
if he's not there, then whatever tyrese has...
if he's not there...
i'm goin for Spilner!

i think i'd go with whatever vin diesel is driving...
if he's not there, then whatever tyrese has...
if he's not there...
i'm goin for Spilner!

Funny? Sorry if you don't have the knowledge to type something informative and opinionated on this discussion.

I'm really curious??? Every Comparison we have someone always brings up Supra and Top-end, so I'd like to know just what it is that makes this car the appointed God of top-end??? I've seen em they're not that areodynamic, they are heavy, they have Turbo so-what, a lot of other cars have it, or other FI, or are just all-motor? I think that "top-end" is actually an illusion created by lack of "low-end" due to this thing called Turbo lag.

that is exactly it. to compensate for the lack of low end the top end of that car is incredible. its also quit sleek. ( not as sleek as a vette, but waaay more sleeker then a cobra ) if you want to see the supra's top end in action look for some of walser's videos. where it shows him destroying 900cc bikes, stock and modded. he also took out a hyabusa from a roll, and a slightly modded hyabusa. if you have no clue what a hyabusa is, its the fastest bike you can buy in the states, and it can do 190mph stock. the supra pulled on them from 70mph quit easily. also the supra's can take out twin turbo stangs and once again super charged vipers. those videos are all over the web. try to look for them.

Ok, but I don't see any logic to that... a 600HP Supra vs. a 600HP Mustang, both will have comparable top end... there is no reason for the Supra to have this miracle top-end.

Maybe it'll be more fair if we equipped the office chair with Naawwzzz or maybe quirt it with a fire hose....

Funny? Sorry if you don't have the knowledge to type something informative and opinionated on this discussion.

yeah, b/c you know i've got NO knowledge of this type of stuff.
riiiight...

i think it's a lame thread.
sorry, but you can't compare cars with equal hp and think they're going to be equal like that.

it depends on how they make the power, where they make the power, and what they're designed for.

a road racing car with 600hp vs. a drag car with 600hp are not going to be comparable in a highway run.

and since you jumped on me, you better jump on jimster too, b/c i know that what he posted made all sorts of sense :rolleyes: (no offense jim)

Maybe it'll be more fair if we equipped the office chair with Naawwzzz or maybe quirt it with a fire hose....
I'll have you know my Nawzzz equipped garden shed will piss on your office chair any day :thefinger

yeah, b/c you know i've got NO knowledge of this type of stuff.
riiiight...

i think it's a lame thread.
sorry, but you can't compare cars with equal hp and think they're going to be equal like that.

it depends on how they make the power, where they make the power, and what they're designed for.

a road racing car with 600hp vs. a drag car with 600hp are not going to be comparable in a highway run.

and since you jumped on me, you better jump on jimster too, b/c i know that what he posted made all sorts of sense :rolleyes: (no offense jim)

Then why read and post, if think it is lame then you don't have to read it, and yes I've seen that road racing car beat many so called drag cars at the track plenty of times. I mean you talk alot like you know crap, but it seems that the more you talk the more it sounds like crap. You say what they are designed for, come on guy think about, these cars are being modified by the owners for drag racing, there not stock anymore so what ever the factory attended is now thrown out the window. Ever heard of that 10 Second modified Tiburon, now I'm quite sure that Hyundia never attended for that car be used for drag racing, but the owner did and was willing to spend the funds, next thing you know, 10 Second Tiburon. Same goes for you Jimster, since you are a moderator, if you think the post is lame, then you don't have to read it, or you could lock it, but stop acting like a foolish child. I've posted this on two other general car forums, and you know what in those forums, we've had discussed what would happend, guess the maturity level is just that much greater in those forums than this one.

Since a road racing car will not be comparable to a drag car, check out this thread I put up in the video section, it's a Supra with twice as much mods (probably over $20,000 worth) as the EVO, yet the EVO runs a faster time with a faster speed-

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=225860

you neglect to mention the other factors, but that's ok.

why read and post?
why not.
it's a free site, i'm allowed to post, no?

it's totally about maturity level... :rolleyes:

you preface your thread with a 2f2f intro, and you want us to take it seriously?

come on...

LIGHTEN UP!!!!! :naughty:

You know what, I'm still not done. Let me explain to you flywisi or whatever your name is and Jimster, it's a freaking simple thread, all I'm asking is between the four cars previously mentioned in the thread and with the modifications aldo previously mentioned, who would win a drag race? If that's to hard for you to answer and think about then please I ask you do not post then, cuz I'm not asking you about a guy in a lawn chair or if this the premise for the fast and furious 3, I'm asking who do you think would win the race? I see you have jokes, as do I and they'd probably get me banned from this site, if you've seen my name on other forums you know what I'm talking about, ask the SRT-4 forum, but you as a moderator I would expect you to set a better example. Now onto what this thread was posted for in the first place, I hate it when things are underestimated, I believe that the EVO for one is underestimated, you say that the car is not designed for drag racing, foolish, the car is designed for whatever you want it to do, that's why it's such a great car. An example I'm using was used before, but it just the first example I can use of this car and believe me there will be many more in the near future. The One Lap Of America Race, the Vishnu EVO placed 5th place overall and 1st in it's class, impressive, especially with the very tough competetion (many were factory backed) it faced during the races. But what impressed me the most about this Vishnu EVO (one of the least modified in the races) was that this car beat out all 79 competitors in the 1/4 mile drag race, yes all 79, yes the EVO placed 1st in the drag racing portion. That means the EVO beat out Factory backed Vipers and SRT-10 Rams, Turbocharged and Supercharged C5 Corvettes, 600WHP Porsche 911 Turbos, heavily modified and factory backed Porsche 911 GT3 and the list grows and grows. Yes 1st place, of course you could argue and say that these cars were modified more in the handling department and etc. for racing, the 1/4 mile race wasn't as important, but the same can be said for the EVO, which like I said also placed 5th overall out 80 cars, and 1st in it's class (At times recording faster laps than the factory backed 911 GT-3 and 911 Turbo and factory backed Vipers, in one race the EVO recorded the fastest lap, by a whopping 6 SECONDS!!!!) What is the EVO and the EVO MR designed for? Anything you want!

paragraphs hurt heads...

you need to calm down.
seriously.
whatever my name is?
scroll for a second and spell it right, it's not difficult.

i'm well aware of the one lap evo, and kept up on it.
i'm a stout evo defender, but they're not top end cars.
they top out at 156.
mustangs, supras, etc. don't.

so if you want to call out the highway race, kiss it goodbye.

if you want to drag race, take the mustang with 600hp.
if you want it on the road course, take the evo

the m3 would be a good second for the road course, then mustang, then supra.

drag strip:
mustang, evo, supra, m3 (m3 and supra could be flipped if you want, depends on weight, really)

highway...
supra, mustang, m3, evo

well...
i answered the question 3 ways, assuming these cars are "all around" setups, not just straightliners...

paragraphs hurt heads...

you need to calm down.
seriously.
whatever my name is?
scroll for a second and spell it right, it's not difficult.

i'm well aware of the one lap evo, and kept up on it.
i'm a stout evo defender, but they're not top end cars.
they top out at 156.
mustangs, supras, etc. don't.

so if you want to call out the highway race, kiss it goodbye.

if you want to drag race, take the mustang with 600hp.
if you want it on the road course, take the evo

the m3 would be a good second for the road course, then mustang, then supra.

drag strip:
mustang, evo, supra, m3 (m3 and supra could be flipped if you want, depends on weight, really)

highway...
supra, mustang, m3, evo

well...
i answered the question 3 ways, assuming these cars are "all around" setups, not just straightliners...

Thank you, that's all I asked for.

Ok, so now we are sayin that a 600HP Supra is a course car while a 600HP Mustang is a drag car... ok, this makes no sense. Most guys I know talk about Supra's going fast in the 1/4... that makes it a drag car... second, the Supra and the Mustang are very COMPARABLE cars in ALL aspects, the Supra is no more of a course car than the Mustang which is no more of a drag car than the Supra... nobody can tell me the difference because there is none.

Then why read and post, if think it is lame then you don't have to read it, and yes I've seen that road racing car beat many so called drag cars at the track plenty of times. I mean you talk alot like you know crap, but it seems that the more you talk the more it sounds like crap. You say what they are designed for, come on guy think about, these cars are being modified by the owners for drag racing, there not stock anymore so what ever the factory attended is now thrown out the window. Ever heard of that 10 Second modified Tiburon, now I'm quite sure that Hyundia never attended for that car be used for drag racing, but the owner did and was willing to spend the funds, next thing you know, 10 Second Tiburon. Same goes for you Jimster, since you are a moderator, if you think the post is lame, then you don't have to read it, or you could lock it, but stop acting like a foolish child. I've posted this on two other general car forums, and you know what in those forums, we've had discussed what would happend, guess the maturity level is just that much greater in those forums than this one.
Yes, I think this thread is rather silly, ever seen a 650 whp Mustang go up against a 700 whp Supra and a M3 and Evo 8? I haven't and I can't recall anybody ever seeing it. The obvious answer to this thread is it depends on the driver, but really, I am not going to lose sleep over a race with imaginary cars and a 2F2F setting...

3000, I wouldn't get frustrated with flylwsi. By now you should realize how much of a critic about everything he is. Its not worth trying to decipher his broken writing skills and replies with no logical means of structure.

As far as this comparo, I agree that its a bit silly. How can you assume anything when you have no idea how they perform? I'll agree with Jimster and go with the office chair. Lets make it an office chair with a 5' wing on the back. Crap, I forgot the stickers that add 10 extra hp.

3000, I wouldn't get frustrated with flylwsi. By now you should realize how much of a critic about everything he is. Its not worth trying to decipher his broken writing skills and replies with no logical means of structure.

As far as this comparo, I agree that its a bit silly. How can you assume anything when you have no idea how they perform? I'll agree with Jimster and go with the office chair. Lets make it an office chair with a 5' wing on the back. Crap, I forgot the stickers that add 10 extra hp.

I shall not get that frustrated anymore your right, just tried to do something different. I thought more people knew more about modifying, I guess not, well I guess I just am an active track particpant, have an active imagination, and I am majoring journalism in college, all played a factor in me doing this. I mean I understand what Jimster is saying, not sure if he is into drag racing, but believe me this scenerio is very likely and just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happend. I've seen a 600WHP Supra go against a 500WHP Mach 1 (Supra Lost), and just last week at the drag strip, perhaps the best race I ever saw was between a mid 11 second Buick Grand National and a low 12 Second EVO. I figured the EVO might have a chance because it would get the jump, and I know the GN driver wasn't use to being behind at any point in a race. Anyhow EVO got the jump and almost held off the GN, but it just barely nipped the EVO to the finish. I think the Buick GN ran 11.9 to EVO 12.2. So yeah Jimster hit up the tracks and you'll be surprised of what races you see.

3000, I wouldn't get frustrated with flylwsi. By now you should realize how much of a critic about everything he is. Its not worth trying to decipher his broken writing skills and replies with no logical means of structure.

As far as this comparo, I agree that its a bit silly. How can you assume anything when you have no idea how they perform? I'll agree with Jimster and go with the office chair. Lets make it an office chair with a 5' wing on the back. Crap, I forgot the stickers that add 10 extra hp.

broken writing skills and no logical means of structure?
what's broken about it?
you can easily understand everything i type, no?

for someone whose opinion i respect, i think that's a bit on the uncalled for side of the spectrum.

i've told everyone on this forum how i am, and yeah, i'm a critic.
so are alot of people.
get over it... it's just the internet...
if you seriously get bent out of shape b/c of something i typed, i'd hate to see how you'd deal with something more serious (that's not pointed at anyone here specifically, just a generalized statement)

broken writing skills and no logical means of structure?
what's broken about it?
you can easily understand everything i type, no?

for someone whose opinion i respect, i think that's a bit on the uncalled for side of the spectrum.

i've told everyone on this forum how i am, and yeah, i'm a critic.
so are alot of people.
get over it... it's just the internet...
if you seriously get bent out of shape b/c of something i typed, i'd hate to see how you'd deal with something more serious (that's not pointed at anyone here specifically, just a generalized statement)

I agree, nothing wrong with different opinions, if we all agree on the same thing, how boring would that be. You say my thread is silly and lame Kurtdg 19 and Jimster? I only put it in story format so that people could better understand the potential of each car. You said no one has an idea of how each car would perform, I typed it out for you for each car. Sure I could of just listed each car with all their mods and asked which would win, but like you said not many would exactly understand the potential of each car, so that's why I did what I did. Ok since you guys are so great, I'm calling you out, to create a better non-lame in story format than my thread using three cars?

then car number 5 comes. its ken duttweiler's twin turbo 87 buick grand national. you remember watching the video of him running a 7.28 @ 180mph on www.bgnra.org. that makes your decision alot easier. and its JUST A V 6!!!!!!!!

Ok here is my go as to why I believe this is silly. Your begining thread seems to suggest a half mile run for the three cars listed. All objective (and still unclear) data has been given for only 1/4 times. How do I know if their not already topped out at the end of the quarter (no signs of gearing of any sort)? I don't know from the information given. There is no measure for what they have only other than a list of extensive engine boosting modifications, wheels, clutch, and word on the street lingo. No signs of chasis and suspension strengthening to compensate for the higher increase in load of power. From the information given, its impossible to tell who will win. I could say the BMW (which we have no idea how powerful or fast it is) and you couldn't argue otherwise, or an office chair equipped with a 5' wing and stickers.

If I am to make a thread, it won't be a story (although I will give you the thumbs up on making an attempt to do so). I also never said I was great, nor do I think I am. I do have my opinion. I just try my hardest not to jump the gun on others opinions as I may have in the past. The only thing I try and do is simply word my own opinion. Whether its liked or not, thats up to whoever reads them.

Ok here is my go as to why I believe this is silly. Your begining thread seems to suggest a half mile run for the three cars listed. All objective (and still unclear) data has been given for only 1/4 times. How do I know if their not already topped out at the end of the quarter (no signs of gearing of any sort)? I don't know from the information given. There is no measure for what they have only other than a list of extensive engine boosting modifications, wheels, clutch, and word on the street lingo. No signs of chasis and suspension strengthening to compensate for the higher increase in load of power. From the information given, its impossible to tell who will win. I could say the BMW (which we have no idea how powerful or fast it is) and you couldn't argue otherwise, or an office chair equipped with a 5' wing and stickers.

If I am to make a thread, it won't be a story (although I will give you the thumbs up on making an attempt to do so). I also never said I was great, nor do I think I am. I do have my opinion. I just try my hardest not to jump the gun on others opinions as I may have in the past. The only thing I try and do is simply word my own opinion. Whether its liked or not, thats up to whoever reads them.

I guess I see where you are coming from, perhaps just a list of modifications would have been better. I guess I was trying to have people use there imagination and feel in the rest, because I filled in and explained everything the thread would have been twice as long, an example of this is when I typed "and the list goes on and on for the Supra". I guess I was looking at it like say you were at a street race or drag strip, and you just got some information on a car, with what you have, who would you think would win. Although I do understand where your coming from, I still believe it is very much possible to figure out who would win, if you know enough about each car and how they respond to each modification. That's why I didn't just say car A has an intake upgrade or ECU upgrade, I was trying to be very specific on what each car has. Maybe I wasn't specific enough, and some may argue that maybe I was being to specific and the post dragged on. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, and I see your knowledge of cars is very good, but I was thinking about most people who might not understand if I was too specific or not specific enough. Say for example if I did a post between a modified 1994 Honda Civic vs. and a modified 2003 Nissan 350Z:

Who would win-

1994 Honda Civic
B18C
AEM Engine Managment System
AEM Cold Air Intake
Apexi GT Spec Exhaust
DC Sports Headers
AEM Adjustible Cam Gears
AEM Tru Power Pulley Kit
DC Sports Short Shifter
Tannabe Pro S Coil-Over
Flick Apex2 Rims
Falken Ziex Z12 Tires

vs.

2003 Nissan 350Z
AEM Cold Air intake
Stillen SS Exhaust
Borla Headers

I was just worried if I did a thread like the one above, people might not understand, and wouldn't give for example the Civic a chance, if I didn't explain it better. Ok kurtdg19 I respect your opinion. I guess it's difficult to do a comparison between modified cars.

in that race, the civic would kill.

;)

I guess I see where you are coming from, perhaps just a list of modifications would have been better. I guess I was trying to have people use there imagination and feel in the rest, because I filled in and explained everything the thread would have been twice as long, an example of this is when I typed "and the list goes on and on for the Supra". I guess I was looking at it like say you were at a street race or drag strip, and you just got some information on a car, with what you have, who would you think would win. Although I do understand where your coming from, I still believe it is very much possible to figure out who would win, if you know enough about each car and how they respond to each modification. That's why I didn't just say car A has an intake upgrade or ECU upgrade, I was trying to be very specific on what each car has. Maybe I wasn't specific enough, and some may argue that maybe I was being to specific and the post dragged on. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, and I see your knowledge of cars is very good, but I was thinking about most people who might not understand if I was too specific or not specific enough. Say for example if I did a post between a modified 1994 Honda Civic vs. and a modified 2003 Nissan 350Z:


I gotcha :smile:

i'm gunna say the m3, b/c i feel sorry for it.


and i'm not trying to add fuel to a fire here, but 3000ways, i like a lot of your threads, they are entertaining (as i assume that's the purpose of them, with the whole "what if" scenarios). but dude, after reading through this entire thread, you are embarassing yourself. i'm fairly new here myself, as i see that you are. and even though we may know our stuff, all us newbies need to show respect to the people who have been in this forum for quite some time. especially the 3+ year members. they are kinda like our elders. that doesn't mean they are always right. but it does mean they deserve some respect. i've moderated other site's pertaining to other subjects, and it can be a pain when people put you down. i guess i'm just saying we all need to be more careful and respectful sometime.

i'm gunna say the m3, b/c i feel sorry for it.


and i'm not trying to add fuel to a fire here, but 3000ways, i like a lot of your threads, they are entertaining (as i assume that's the purpose of them, with the whole "what if" scenarios). but dude, after reading through this entire thread, you are embarassing yourself. i'm fairly new here myself, as i see that you are. and even though we may know our stuff, all us newbies need to show respect to the people who have been in this forum for quite some time. especially the 3+ year members. they are kinda like our elders. that doesn't mean they are always right. but it does mean they deserve some respect. i've moderated other site's pertaining to other subjects, and it can be a pain when people put you down. i guess i'm just saying we all need to be more careful and respectful sometime.

I see what your saying, but if I was lashing out, it was because I feel like I was being put down and disrespected, I don't care how long somebody has been a part of this site, but they deserve the amount of respect they dish out. I may have not been part of this site for too long, but I have been into cars for a good part of my life and I definitly consider nobody here my elder. I agree perhaps the thread wasn't the greatest idea (this has already been explained why I chose to do it this way) but if you don't like it then offer ideas of how I could improve it or don't offer any ideas at all, but disrespect me and I'll disrespect you back. Believe me I have been showing some respect and holding back a lot, I'm a former member of speedmagazine.com, and I have had to learn to hold things back or risk getting kicked out of forums.