Inferiority of Ford Focus

Hi. I am a Toyota Corolla owner. I recently went through a month long process of choosing and buying a compact car. I did a lot of research. I started off with an inclination to buy a Focus. I have a soft spot for Ford as my Dad always drove Fords. I love that blue insignia.

However, all my research indicated that the Focus is a poor car. In terms of reliability, it has been panned by numerous non biased groups, such as consumer reports and JD Power Rankings.

Thus I did not carry through with my inclination to buy a Focus.

I quickly realized that the two best cars in the class were the Civic and the Corolla. I bought a Corolla.

Given the objective evidence of the superiority of the Japanese manufacturer, I am curious as to why anyone would buy a Focus. Or any North American car for that matter. There is not much of a price difference, but there is a great quality difference.

Please enlighten me on this issue.

cuz civics are everywhere, people like to buy domestic if they can, apperance, and good incentives. i talked my mom out of a focus and into a civic lol dealer was almost begging for me to get one, after seeing te reviews im glad i didnt thought. Realy nice platform though

Don't hate on domestic cars. Ford is and always will be better than any import manufacturer. Everyone has a corolla (no power, looks like shit) and a civic (like ants or mosquitos, everyone and their grandmother has one). The focus is not a bad car, just because consumer reports or jd power rankings said they suck, does not mean that they do. If these magazines said that the Dodge Viper had less power than a Mazda Miata, would you believe it? Why not test drive one yourself and see how you like it before bad mouthing it.

Don't hate on domestic cars. Ford is and always will be better than any import manufacturer. Everyone has a corolla (no power, looks like shit) and a civic (like ants or mosquitos, everyone and their grandmother has one). The focus is not a bad car, just because consumer reports or jd power rankings said they suck, does not mean that they do. If these magazines said that the Dodge Viper had less power than a Mazda Miata, would you believe it? Why not test drive one yourself and see how you like it before bad mouthing it.

Hey dude! I did test drive the Focus and liked it. Based on driving alone, I would have bought it. A nice sporty feel. But I was too worried about reliability.

I leased a focus for year and it was a great car. Never had any problems with it. I especially like the new 2005 focus! Reminds me of a mondeo from the front. :smokin:

The longer the Focus is out, the less kinks it has in it. By now the Focus is a great car. Easily comparibly to a Corolla and Civic. Actually I like the styling of the Focus the better than the Corolla and Civic.

um teh focus actully almost LOOKS like a civic

I think the focus looks more like the corolla, well the front does, and the rear looks like the rear of the civic. Lol. So maybe ford tried to combine the looks of both the corolla and the civic. I like the look of it anyways. I live in Montreal and there seems to be quite a few focuses on the road. The civic and corolla remain to be the top selling cars here though. I wouldn't buy a used focus after hearing about all the problems the older models had. I would buy or lease a new one first and try it out. And hey! you forgot to mention the Sentra to! Thats also a great reliable car.

the Sentra has the reputation as being a less reliable car than either the Corolla or Civic.

Toyota and Honda are the "first tier" Japanese carmakers and Mazda and Nissan are the "second tier". At least that is my impression.

The Focus has a superior suspension design than either car. Engine not reliable??? False. The motor has been in service for years. Funny thing is, the Zetec motor is much loved in the UK and Europe. So why hate it here??? The Zetec is held in almost the same favor as the Cosworth. It is the perferred motor when doing engine swaps. The Focus HAD minor problems the first two years, but since we're past those years the issues are not valid. If your buying used it would be 2000,2001 to avoid. But my 2001 has had 0 issues and been recalled 0 times.

Why would I buy one.
1. The suspension/handling is the BEST in class. And better than some of those costing twice the price.
2. Motor is rock solid, dependable.
3. I actually like the interior. Although I do not like the new interior. The old interior had personality.

The only drawback I've found is the engine computer that is almost self-aware. If you try to do certain engine mods, it can figure out what you've done and eliminate them. It "corrects for error". No way to easily change A/F ratios. :banghead:

Why buy a Honda or Toyota and take a step or two backward in suspension design???

That said, I'm what you'd call a truck person. This is the first car I've owned in 20 years. I'm also a chassis/suspension designer.

Thank you fordesigner. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Not to mention that the Focus has been on the Ward's auto world 10 best list since it was introduced. That means it's awarded a BEST award against cars like the Corvette Z06 and the BMW M5.

The Focus is the only car in it's class i can sit in, and have room in all positions front and back (i'm 6'4'').

It has the best ride and handling of ALL compact cars on the market, i drove them ALL.

The engine has been in use for 15 years, came right out of the escort whcih was the indestructible throw-away car. You couldn't kill them.

The ergonomics are the best in class. You say the Honda has superior quality? Try turning on the heater without hitting 5 stereo buttons at once when you have your winter gloves on.

The Escort was the best car you could own when it came to compact cars in the snow. Again, i tried them ALL. The Focus is better then the escort thanks to it's superior suspension and electronic traction control.

Name another compact car in it's price point that will give you heated seats, traction control, and fail-safe cooling sytem. NONE can give you that combination. (Fail safe cooling is a motor system that uses 2 cylinders to run the car and the other two fill with air to keep the engine cool. When the running cylinders are two hot, they switch with the air filled ones. The Zetec motor does this in case of a total loss of coolant from a semi-major impact...no other car in the class has it)

You say you bought the superior car? The Focus is the best in it's class for safety and driving performance, and for the reasons listed and it's price point, not only is it the best value but you get the most stuff for your money in a superior vehicle.

Stop reading lemon-aide books and consumer guide and look at all the factors of a car and talk to people that actually owned it and the guys that work in the service department of a dealership. Then look at the real deal.

You cheated yourself out of a superior car by not looking at everything you should have.

PS: I'm in the car business as a career, it's my job to know what's good.

svt focus= 18k new .92g skidpad 15.4 1/4
zx2 s/r = 16k new .95g skidpad(and doesnt have 17in rims) 15.4 1/4 where does the other 2k go? stock rice?

The focus has a dependable engine. That's the only thing dependable about that car. I had a 2000 zx3 focus for 3 years until I finally got rid of that piece of shit. Dependable, my ass! The doorlocks broke on me 3 different times! The brakepads were replaced 5 times within 3 years. The interior panels came loose after time and eventually started creeching and making annoying noises. that's not reliability. I took good care of that care and it was much less than reliable. These cars are disposable. I traded that POS in for a 2000 Maxima. Now I'm happy.

Not to mention that the Focus has been on the Ward's auto world 10 best list since it was introduced. That means it's awarded a BEST award against cars like the Corvette Z06 and the BMW M5.

The Focus is the only car in it's class i can sit in, and have room in all positions front and back (i'm 6'4'').

It has the best ride and handling of ALL compact cars on the market, i drove them ALL.

The engine has been in use for 15 years, came right out of the escort whcih was the indestructible throw-away car. You couldn't kill them.

The ergonomics are the best in class. You say the Honda has superior quality? Try turning on the heater without hitting 5 stereo buttons at once when you have your winter gloves on.

The Escort was the best car you could own when it came to compact cars in the snow. Again, i tried them ALL. The Focus is better then the escort thanks to it's superior suspension and electronic traction control.

Name another compact car in it's price point that will give you heated seats, traction control, and fail-safe cooling sytem. NONE can give you that combination. (Fail safe cooling is a motor system that uses 2 cylinders to run the car and the other two fill with air to keep the engine cool. When the running cylinders are two hot, they switch with the air filled ones. The Zetec motor does this in case of a total loss of coolant from a semi-major impact...no other car in the class has it)

You say you bought the superior car? The Focus is the best in it's class for safety and driving performance, and for the reasons listed and it's price point, not only is it the best value but you get the most stuff for your money in a superior vehicle.

Stop reading lemon-aide books and consumer guide and look at all the factors of a car and talk to people that actually owned it and the guys that work in the service department of a dealership. Then look at the real deal.

You cheated yourself out of a superior car by not looking at everything you should have.

PS: I'm in the car business as a career, it's my job to know what's good.




I readily admit that I do not know much about cars. I rely on secondary sources. But how can you overlook the record setting number of recalls. Look at the post two or three below yours. Mechanics have told me that Honda and or Toyota are the best.

I suspect that the '04 Focus is actually on a par with the Corolla. Ford worked very hard to improve it. But surely you admit that the early Focus was inferior to the contemporary Corolla.

If you could have a 2000 Corolla or a 2000 Focus, both with 150 k, which would you choose. Be honest.

Ford was unloading the ZX2 at a loss to make way for the Focus. :rolleyes:

Add the fact that the ZX2 motor no longer met emission levels that corp. required. Notice how they dropped the VVT on the exhaust cam and added a EGR. Also the SVT has a much higher NVH quality rating due to the fact that it has over 50 lbs of sound deadening added to the based model. Subwoofer adds a little extra pounds too. Those 17 inch wheels are also very heavy at 22 lbs each. Put some stock 16 inch wheels on and things will also greatly improve. A overly heavy dual mass flywheel. Think that might have to do with some decrease in performance?
Everything I mention robs power and decreases it's performance. Remove the sound deadening, put 16 inch wheels on drop the dual mass and I know you'll quickly be on the losing end. Since the stock SVT throws around 150 hp to the ground, while the ZX2 S/R only manages around 120.

You also didn't meantion that the ZX2 doesn't have traction control, a sub woofer, heated seats, or a Getrag six speed trans and alot of other comforts. The SVT is a much nicer daily driver.

(Although I drive a stripped ZX3. :dunno: )

The focus has a dependable engine. That's the only thing dependable about that car. I had a 2000 zx3 focus for 3 years until I finally got rid of that piece of shit. Dependable, my ass! The doorlocks broke on me 3 different times! The brakepads were replaced 5 times within 3 years. The interior panels came loose after time and eventually started creeching and making annoying noises. that's not reliability. I took good care of that care and it was much less than reliable. These cars are disposable. I traded that POS in for a 2000 Maxima. Now I'm happy.

You can't compare a Focus to a Maxima. That's like comparing a grape to a kitchen sink. Now that that is established, you said yourself the car has a dependable engine; do you want your car to start when it's minues 30 degree celcius outside? I think so! Show me a 4 year old car doesn't creek and rattle. Of course there were issues with the first couple of years, find me a car that doesn't have issues in the first couple of years. Unfortunatley, whenever there's a problem with Ford it gets all over the media, but GM and Honda and Toyota have problems and you sure don't hear about it@ What abou Toyota's first minivan and the roll-over law suits that they recieved? What about all of Honda's rust problems? How about how GM raves about the quiet Duramax...the Ford 6.0L is just as quiet if not quieter then the Duramax, i've driven both on the same routes under the same circumstances... why do you think GM doesn't advertise 'quietest diesel' anymore?

how can you overlook the record setting number of recalls. Look at the post two or three below yours. Mechanics have told me that Honda and or Toyota are the best.

I suspect that the '04 Focus is actually on a par with the Corolla. Ford worked very hard to improve it. But surely you admit that the early Focus was inferior to the contemporary Corolla.

If you could have a 2000 Corolla or a 2000 Focus, both with 150 k, which would you choose. Be honest.

1. Don't buy a recall year. 2003 and up have had NO recalls at all.

2. Early Focus VS contemporary Corolla...i disagree from a personal physical aspect. Being my height, i simply don't fit in the older Corollas, so it's not even worth considering. As far as initial quality, they're about equal depending on the models and equipment you compare it too.
It's certainly not inferior, it's got the most advanced ride technology in it's class for the price point, and the ergonomics are of the same calibre as the Toyota, just domestic VS import in styling the interior and such.

3. Both with 150k is hard to tell. I'd want maintenance records and such, to test drive the two and see who's taken better care of the vehicle. But since i don't fit in the 2000 Corolla and i've already said i won't buy a Focus older then '03, i think that settles that.

4. I agree that most mechanics will say that the Toyota or the Honda is the better car. This is because when you buy an import, you do the maintenance or your car is junkyard material. When a Toyota is traded in, first thing out of the owner's mouth to the salesman is 'here's my maintenance book, it's all filled!'. Their maintenance is done on time and to the kilometre mostly, because it's ground into owner's skulls when they buy them new.

Domestic cars, people don't treat them the same way because of the implication 'built like a rock, solid Detroit muscle, shish boom bah' and all that. If people who purchased domestic cars (and i'm just generalizing, i'm not saying we all do this) maintained their cars with the regularly scheduled maintenance, that would through the Japanese reputation right out the window.

For example, i helped appraise a '97 Honda Civic at my dealership a couple months back, and it had the regualr wear and tear, but only 47,000kms. It had not been maintained at all though, the thing ran like broken down wagon. You'd have expected 250,000km out of that motor easy. Nope, it was shot. Because they hadn't maintained it and they drove the piss out of it. 6 weeks ago, i sold a 4 month old demonstrator Windstar to a middle aged couple, who were trading in a '96 Ford Windstar GL. Their Windstar had just over 500,000km on it, it ran like a top. I mean it was mint, absoutely perfect. Based on the kms, it wasn't worth a hell of alot, but they hadn't bagged on it, and they had done it's scheduled maintenance.

You can expect the same thing Corolla to Focus, Honda to Neon (though i'd NEVER buy a neon for reasons we won't talk about), doesn't matter. You maintain the vehicle and you're good to go.

How about this; Nissan Titan VS new F150. Jap VS Domestic. Both all new for this year. No recalls on the Ford, and i don't know of any on the Titan. Guess which truck won the award compared to the chevy and dodge and TOYOTA?? F150 won the best truck award by Car and Driver and Motor Trend and i'm waiting for JD Power to agree.

I know this is off topic, but i think my point is made.

1)Everyone buys a toyota or a honda, I am different. I hate the bland looks. I would not pay a dime for one of them.

2) I also have driven fords alot. NOT one has ever given me problems and I beat the turd out of my cars.

3) Have you noticed the focus was on the car and driver 10 best for while???

I currently just bought a focus and am VERY pleased with it. It's fun to drive, looks way better than a civic, or any other ricer, and gets decent gas mileage.

I(and my family) also have owned a
1980 Ford Fairmont - person I sold it to..last I heard it had 315K miles
1989 Ford Bronco II - 135K no big problems
1990 Ford Explorer - 175K - no big problems
1989 Ford Probe 129K - no big problems
1999 Ford Explorer - no big problems
1999 Ford Explorer Sport - no big problems

That's why I bought a ford.

jranaudo,

Thank you for your help.

Ford was unloading the ZX2 at a loss to make way for the Focus. :rolleyes:

Add the fact that the ZX2 motor no longer met emission levels that corp. required. Notice how they dropped the VVT on the exhaust cam and added a EGR.

if you look at sales numbers the zx2 constantly sold at least 1/2 the number as the total for te zx3/zx5/zts/ztw/ and se, that means it took 3 trim levs of the focus to sell as well as a ZX2 w/ 1 trim level.

ZX2 easily meets emmisions requirements due to the vCt not vvt. it gets better emissions then the focus actually, and can be easily tuned to make better emissions. Where was it droped? the Contour and ZX2 had the VCT through out there entire run. and if they didnt meet the requrements? it came out in 98 the focus came out in 2000, and they could have easily started to put focus drivetrains into the zx2 and contour but they didnt, so that obviously rules out your emmissions theory. If it no longer bet standard it would have been changed in 2000 whent ficus came out, but it didnt

and for 2k you get a sound system most people replace anyway(making paying the extra money for it pointless, and the 6-speed is geared for autoX, making MANY people look into how to swap a zx2 or zx3 trany into it, and it is known for troubles taking more power.

1st yr focus recalls - 14
1st yr zx2 recalls - 3

Don't hate on domestic cars. Ford is and always will be better than any import manufacturer.

yeah, i bet they are real fast too! ford doesn't compare to honda. :iamwithst

not ford america atleast, but our sporty 2.0 svt is the same price as the sporty 2.0 civic si and the si will lose every race

Originally Posted by focusfreak
Don't hate on domestic cars. Ford is and always will be better than any import manufacturer.

yeah, i bet they are real fast too! ford doesn't compare to honda.

Ford doesn't compare to Honda eh?

1. Then why does the Escape out sell the CRV? It's a better vehicle.
Have you driven the CRV? Made of tin, cheap POS. Escape has
quality and isn't underpowered like the Honda.

2. Why does a stock SVT Focus handle better, provide more room,
have more comfort, be better built/engineered, and out run the
stock Civic Si?

3. Why is it that the Honda van compared to the Freestar is such
a low-quality van? Get out and look at the Honda VS the Freestar
at the same price point, and see everything you get between the
two. The Ford kicks the Honda's ass.

4. S2000 is Honda's sports car. Mustang is Ford's
sports car series, here's some numbers for you.

S2000: 0-60mph is 5.89

Mustang:

- Cobra 0-60mph is 4.70
- Mach 1 0-60mph is 5.38
- GT 0-60mph is 5.71

These are for the 2003 model years of these cars, all bone stock. honda's faster then Ford huh? Not only will Ford beat Honda off the line, we'll eat you up in the 1/4 mile with our larger displacement engines and taller top-end gears.

Take your un-informed ass back to school.

:thefinger

That last post of mine was directed at r8erz4life by the way.

Is this a fight?
FOCUS is SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FOCUS doesnt COMPARE to HONDA when you talk about long lasting, great cars. quit thinkin focuses are nice and get a better car or a life perhaps.

i like ford...............but a focus is a bitch car!!!!

this isnt a freestar, mustang, or escape thread is it? :screwy:

hold on.
did someone just compare the honda 2 litre (s2000)engine to 5 litre ones (gt, cobra+mach(?))?
and what happened to the nsx in your comparison?

if you want a real comparison, the new lotus elise s2 sport.
1.8 litre engine.
190hp
0-60 in 4.7
in all respects, this beats your big 5litre fords.

but then i'm a firm believer that numbers mean nothing.

in my opinion, you can't really compare ford and honda because their whole philosphy is different.
if you can't understand why honda is good then you are missing something.
on the other hand, if you can't see why ford is good then you too are missing something.

why do people (or perhaps it's just kids....) like to argue over who is best?
there is no best.

here's a challenge, name one other 2.0 engine, or any other engine for that matter that can produce over 100bhp per litre, naturally aspirated.

on the other hand, you can't really say that the ST170 and RS focus are bad cars (but then they weren't really made in america so maybe that's why....)

Is this a fight? FOCUS is SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOCUS doesnt COMPARE to HONDA when you talk about long lasting, great cars.... this isnt a freestar, mustang, or escape thread is it?

You spoke in a general manner when you said Ford doesn't compare to Honda yeah, i bet they are real fast too! ford doesn't compare to hon so i answered you in a general way.

The long lasting part i agree simply because the Focus has not been on the market long enough to compare. For what is here, it's a superior vehicle. Read about it.

Focus is slow eh?

Go grab a stock civic and a stock focus and race the 1/4 mile.

Go grab a civic si and a focus svt and race the 1/4 mile.

and what happened to the nsx in your comparison?

If you would like to compare high performance cars, i could include the Ford GT if you'd like.

I didn't offer up the NSX as it is under the Acura brand name, which is still honda i know, but i felt it best to compare vehicles that were under the same brand name.

[QUOTE=drunken monkey]hold on.
did someone just compare the honda 2 litre (s2000)engine to 5 litre ones (gt, cobra+mach(?))?
and what happened to the nsx in your comparison?

if you want a real comparison, the new lotus elise s2 sport.
1.8 litre engine.
190hp
0-60 in 4.7
in all respects, this beats your big 5litre fords.
QUOTE]

lol all you proved is that less weigth makes a car faster, put the mach1 4.6 in that car and it would be EMENSLY faster. the Elise weights like 1700lbs. so you not proving that teh motor is any better, you proved that weight factors in, put a 320hp v8 in a 1700lb car, then see what happens.

So its not teh motor that won, its the power/weight ratio

my point is, that guy was comparing £40-120,000 cars with 5litre engines to a £27,000 one with a 2litre one.

my example is just as valid as his, which in terms of valid real world comparisons, is still pretty much meaningless.

on the other hand, the elise might be lighter but it also has much less horse power, so doesn't that make a difference?

i mean, if i was talking about a flyweight car with the same engines as the fords, then it'd be an issue about weight.
but, like i said, the elise has less power, not just less weight.

anyway.
i'm not arguing about who is faster.
i'm not arguing about who is better.

just trying to point out that these numbers that the kids love to spout out mean nothing.

should also point out though, that putting the big heavy V8 would add quite a bit of weight to the little elise.
it isn't the most stable thing in the world to begin with, all that extra power+weight at the rear end would mean a lot work.

some german guys have stuck a tuned (old) s4 twin turbo in the back but they pretty much re-engineered the whole car to make it drive-able.

and hell, back to the debate about engines.
if you're going to change the argument and say that you can put a bigger engine into the elise to make faster, then why not apply the same with the honda?

sorry, i know that it wasn't you who was giving the stupid comparisons....

hmm, my original point still stands.
what happened to the nsx in that comparison?

hows this, base model NSX 89K 290hp, 224tq 13.1 /4
Mustang Cobra 390hp 390tq 35k 12.8

exactly how is teh nsx worth more then 2 cobras? you could have a properly tuned cobra, or even escort or focus runing 10's fro that cost and have LOTS of money left over

but then compare them numbers to the ferrari 355...
(and should remind you that the nsx engine is only a 3.2 V6)
the nsx is practically made entirely of aluminium.
that's where the high price comes from.
it isn't cheap making them.
there aren't many companies in the world that can weld aluminium like honda can.
i do agree, the cost of a brand new nsx is questionable (although i'm not sure if pointing out how cheap the fords are is a good thing....)
but then how much is a 911?
how much is an M3?
how much is a Tuscan?

but like i said the numbers mean nothing.
i stand by my elise if you want to play numbers;it is cheaper and faster and does MORE with the little it has.
name me one other car that can perform as it does and still you 40mpg.
trying to salvage the focus debate here, not argue numbers.
you seem to have missed my point.

what makes a better car is not how much it costs or how much power it has, or what it's made from, or even how fast it goes.

the better car is the one that does what it sets out to do.
the better car is the one that you like the feel of.
the better car is the one that you like the look of .
the better car is the one that you dreamed of as a kid.

the better car is the one that suits your need.
the best car for my sister is the Ka because it is small, cheap, easy to insure, easy on the petrol, cheap to fix and quite fun to drive (although i think i scared her by screeching the tires around every corner on the way home...)
doesn't mean that it's the best car for me, or you or the bloke down the road.

The problem with pulling the elise and the porsche and the other cars is that it's not comparing Ford to Honda. That was the point of my post, not to mention that the guy stated Honda is faster then Ford.

The NSX part of the equation is an Acura, not quite the same, but even running with that ball my point is still proven;

NSX 290hp, 224tq 13.1 /4
Mustang Cobra 390hp 390tq 35k 12.8/4

Fast is all i was trying to prove with that statement.

Can you compare a 5.0L with a 2.0L? I agree that it's not a fair comparison. But when you factor in the power to weight ratios of both cars and put the cars side by side...

I'm sure you can see where i'm going with this. I think both sides have proven their points, some more then other. Let's call it a day and everyone can drive what they please.

well the question of speed can all be taken apart by mentioning the F1 engines that honda (used to)make.
but then that's taking it a bit far....

y'know, in the nsx(in my part of the world, honda is all there is; acura does not exist)/mustang cobra stats comparison,
the nsx isn't that much slower than the mustang considering that the mustang has a 100hp+166lb/ft advantage.

we're talking the difference between a good gear change and a bad one.
i mean, with the advantage, if the mustang cobra was slower then something must be wrong...

anyway.
all of what we have said just goes to point out that the numbers mean nothing.

let's go back to the original focus vs civic.
let's take the top end of both of these cars.
RS vs Type R.

RS is faster but suffers horribly from torque steer over uneven surfaces and often tramlines over lane markings.
Type-R is slower, has ridiculously low end pull but has a better shift, better chassis control and finer balance.
let's face it.
both cars are good at different things.

personally, i'd go with the RS because well, the civic looks like a loaf of bread.

oh sod, it.
i'll stick to my lotus elise!
who cares if it rains for nine months of the year here?
i'll never have trouble hitting little buttons with my winter gloves on; there aren't any switches because there isn't anything in the car!

gee whizz, no radio, no carpet, no air con, the engine is prone to dying if you run it too high.
the elise must be a really bad car...

if you look at sales numbers the zx2 constantly sold at least 1/2 the number as the total for te zx3/zx5/zts/ztw/ and se, that means it took 3 trim levs of the focus to sell as well as a ZX2 w/ 1 trim level.

ZX2 easily meets emmisions requirements due to the vCt not vvt. it gets better emissions then the focus actually, and can be easily tuned to make better emissions. Where was it droped? the Contour and ZX2 had the VCT through out there entire run. and if they didnt meet the requrements? it came out in 98 the focus came out in 2000, and they could have easily started to put focus drivetrains into the zx2 and contour but they didnt, so that obviously rules out your emmissions theory. If it no longer bet standard it would have been changed in 2000 whent ficus came out, but it didnt

and for 2k you get a sound system most people replace anyway(making paying the extra money for it pointless, and the 6-speed is geared for autoX, making MANY people look into how to swap a zx2 or zx3 trany into it, and it is known for troubles taking more power.
Yea, like I said they were under pricing the ZX2. It should sell. It is a good car, and a great bargain.

I believe your emissions ideas are not quite correct. With the vCt, the Zetec in the ZX2 could surpass idle emissions , BUT not cold start. Cold start emissions are where Ford has been concentrating on. By lowering the cold start emissions the Zetec in the Focus IS a lower emission engine. Why do you think it was changed??? The VCT did not meet Ford emission requirements. It met government standards, but Ford was on their "Cleaner, Better, Now" campaign.
Emission levels (tons per year)
ZX2 6.80
Focus 6.20-6.70
The Zetec with the VCT system was discontinued. It's no longer used. The Escape doesn't use it....
The Contour and ZX2 were at the end of their run. It wasn't worth the tear-up to replace the entire system. It's NOT a simple engine swap. The close coupled cats and egr system would require a major reworking of cars that are to be replaced. Where would the logic of that be???

Now that last part is where your very wrong. I'll bet most SVT buyers will not be replacing the factory sound systems. Visit Focaljet, most buyers are reluctant to replace the suspension, let alone tearing out the rear hatch.
The six speed is a marketing tool. It's a expensive marketing tool. Auto X????? Hardly. 0-60 is a 1-2 shift in BOTH transmissions. So where is it a Auto X trans. Add the fact that it would be very difficult to swap the transmissions.... There are several real racers campaigning SVT. Kearny for one comes to mind. Look him up. He hasn't swapped his trans. That said, the MTX is rated for more power than the 6 speed in the SVT. When Cosworth was working with the Focus they used the MTX and the RS uses it also. If SVT was going to add real performance, they would have left the MTX and added a Torsen. But Torsen doesn't look as good as saying "6 SPEED TRANSMISSION!!!"

It's difficult getting more power out of both of the motors(Base and SVT). But that has more to do with the engine management system used. It's an adaptive system. If you try to use a FMU, the computer can "learn" that you've added it and basically alter what it does to pull it back to Ford's setting.

umm no nead to swap teh motor, the heads swap, so yes it is easy to change. and a mojority of people wo buy a svt focus are apporx 20, tht want nice car and are into fling around, and a majority of those same kids want the bet sound systems, and ford systems suck, i have never heared one i liked in ANY car

just cos i'm curious now, do we get the same focus here in the uk as you guys do in the states?
i mean, for a start, what's the svt model?
is it the same as the ST170 we get here?
and um, did you guys get the RS?

another thing are the regulations that different between us?
sometimes i wonder if the (same) cars that we both get, are the same at all.

just cos i'm curious now, do we get the same focus here in the uk as you guys do in the states?
i mean, for a start, what's the svt model?
is it the same as the ST170 we get here?
and um, did you guys get the RS?

another thing are the regulations that different between us?
sometimes i wonder if the (same) cars that we both get, are the same at all.
The suspensions receive major revamping. We had 3 foot pothole to contend with. When NASA wants to test lunar vehicles they take them on a tour of Michigan roads. :rolleyes: Generally the worse roads in the US. Suspension designers had to add dual 6mm voids to the bushings to get compliance needed. Also the springs and shocks are much softer.
Our Focus has been said to "sit like a 4X4" or "minivan". It sits higher.
Aside for the suspension.....
Some things are the same. The svt = st170. There is not turbo available here. The tuning is much different over here. Our petrol isn't quite up to what's available over there. 93-94 oct. is the highest common pump here and at a much higher cost. And yes I know we're spoiled with our gas prices.

Plus our cars must pass higher crash ratings. Front and rear bumpers had to be extended to add more rebar and crash foam.

Our cars only have/had 2.0L SPI, 2.0L Zetec or the 2.3 Pzev.
No 1.8s over here. Wish we could have gotten the Puma 1.8 or the Ka. :banghead:

ZX2 zetec to Focus is more than just a simple head swap....

You need the EGR that the VCT replaces. And the whole computer and associated harness. Not to mention the close coupled cats.....
There's more to it than a simple head and that will result in a engine bay tear up and engineering costs..... If you think it's easy, try it. Without the VCT on your engine you could easily swap in a pair of cams and gain some good power. I believe Esslinger did away with the VCT on their car. The VCT was for emissions. The computer on the Focus Zetec is a monster and a real bear to work with. Just talk to anyone who has tuned one..... Talk to Turbo Tom. He's turboed both a ZX2, a Focus and a SVT Focus. He can tell you, it was a real job getting the tuning right. FMU is not possible. A chip, or stand alone is required.

Sound system aside, the SVT weighs too much. Simple as that. It has around 50 -70 lbs MORE sound deadening material than the stock Focus. Doesn't sound like they were too concerned with all out speed, does it? It wasn't meant to be a all out racer. Just beat the Civic SI, which it does. And it does handle quite well.

so in actual fact, all of my previous posts here are a bit redundent in the fact that were based on the state of the cars here in the uk, and not there...
so um, you guys have not really had the opportunity to drive a 'tight' handling uk focus?

and for that matter, I wish i could've gotten the puma....
y'know, i have never had as much fun in a little car as i have in my sister's Ka (apart from my beloved 106 gti, may she rest in peace.....).
you really can keep the wheels screeching along the roads you are familiar with!
on a side note though (and for the fact that you might be able to help), the brakes on the Ka feel a bit um, spongy.
for the first inch of so of pedal movement, not much happens, then after that it always feels like the wheels are about to lock up (but never have so far).

does that sound anything like normal, or is it just my driving?

removing helps you get a better top end, but reduces your bottom end tq, and you dont need to have teh VCT replaced there re now places that will re grind teh stock exasust zx2 cam for ou, making its a lot more pointless to eliminate the VCT, on a fuly buit Zetec motor the VCT delete only added 8 tq to the top end, not really worth the time unless you are going stricly race, and im usre that ford could have taken the time to get the VCT to give lower cold start emissions if they had a need to, but it was just easier to keep it out since they were going to the Duratec anyway.

! Just beat the Civic SI, which it does. And it does handle quite well.

really it can beat a car w/ less HP and TQ and doesnt have a autoX suspention? AMAZING!!

a stock zx2 can beat a new Si, so thats nothing to brag about

man do i wish they released teh SVT zx2

DM,
Actually I do drive a very tight handling Focus. All of the crappy void filled bushings have been replaced with polys and it's currently sporting Tein coilovers with the EFDC. Before they were available it had yellow Konis with Eibach pro-kit springs. The Focus suspension responds very well to those changes. So I do have a idea of what we're missing.
It dynoed in with 150whp and 155 wtq with only minor work. It's currently in the shop getting a GT28R installed, that should bring things up to 250whp or more.

Wasn't the Puma was available with the 1.7 zetec?? I thought it was.
If it responds as well as the 2.0L, the Puma would be one hell of a ride.

As for the brakes on the Ka, don't know, haven't been able to drive one.
We've got a RS here at building 1 and they will not let me have the keys. :banghead: Since I take my Focus to some local road courses. They wouldn't let me have at it with the Vanquish either. :sly: They figure I'm less dangerous with a Lightning, a SVT Focus or a Cobra. :lol2:

Dropping the VCT will not kill your low end tq. Myth. What low end tq are you talking about?? A non VCT Zetec with stage 2 cams, the hp and tq drop off before 6200 rpms. I lost less than 5 tq under 2000 rpms and had big gains over 2500. Dropping the VCT would be a pain, but with a set of good cams, you wouldn't lose anything. And you'll be able to get major hp gains, not to mention being able to dial in your cams (dyno tune).
Oh and regrinds = crap. No one uses regrinds. Ford Racing? Kent? Crane? Kat? No, they don't. Gude uses regrinds, enough said.

im usre that ford could have taken the time to get the VCT to give lower cold start emissions if they had a need to, but it was just easier to keep it out since they were going to the Duratec anyway.
Yes! Bingo! Ford is in business to make money. The VCT was a waste of money. Lower emissions are possible without it and at a cost savings.

There is no SVT ZX2 and will never be a SVT ZX2. They dropped the Focus and have said it will not return. Poor sales. An outdated Escort platform.... :rolleyes: Even if they wanted to do a SVT ZX2, it would have even lower performance than the Focus. What do you think will happen to the ZX2 when they add 400 lbs of trim level, sound deadening, sound system, traction control...... It already has less hp, unless they install the SVT Focus motor...... and even then the suspension is inferior.

umm no a stock car w/a the vct removed (which is REALY easy to do) loses tq on the bottom end(below 3000), this has been proven repeatedly but you get 9hp up top, and the only wayt to make up for it it to tune teh cam gear to change teh power band. and if teh VCT was a wast of m oney then why is it in teh SVT Focus, and new Ford trucks?

And call 1-800FORD-SVT and ast if a svt zx2 prototype was ever made, they will tell you yes, and that it was turbo charged. and seing how it already weighs less then a focus stock fro stock a svt zx2 would weigh less then a svt focus.

and for suspention, i zx2 w/ the same springs as a s/r and 17in rims(like im sure an svt would have) hit .97g on a skidpad, thats .06g higher then a svt focus, and still had the stock struts, so im sure that of they just put the s/r suspention and 17's on it it would be able to pull .98g+

Ok, now that everyone and there mother has responded to this thread, I must now say this; all cars are great, no matter what make or model. Without them, we would still be using horse drawn carriages to get to where we want to go. The Focus can't be compared to the Civic because of the fact that it has not been out for as long. But, even with the time it has been out, Ford has improved it drastically, and unless you're buying a used 1990 civic, you can't beat the price of the Focus, especially with the handling it has along with comfort features. I believe Ford's purpose for building the Focus was to compete with the civic in sales and in the aftermarket. and since we are having this discussion, I guess it's safe to say that Ford is on the right track, cuz the Focus has definitely caused a ripple in the pond.

what realy pisses me off is that ford isnt like everyother company and sees that the people that are buying is as a sport compact car are looking to modify it, mostly w/ money they make at low paying jobs, to show off to their friends. FOrd on the other hand, instead of saying "HEY, look we support sub-compacts look at all the FR stuff we have for you!" which is like 12 things, no they brag about a 20k v8 swap, now tell me wha market are they trying to aim for? the civic crowd that they want to turn into a Focus croud? or teh 40some yr old guy that has money to wast putting a v8 in a focus? they market everytign wrong, and EVERY demo of a Taurus, Couger, Contour, Focus, or Escort that would either faster then a v6 stang, or meat a GT was never produced unless it cost teh same as a stang. Ford could have had a Conour Puff that was a N2O stock car, a 230hp SC and 200hp turbo escort, a 240hp sc Couger, and a 290hp sc taurus SHO(forget the concept name of it). Instead they have a Saleen focus that viods tha warrenty if teh N2O is actually used, a svt contour that can barely beat a v6 stang but cost like 3k more, a Roush Focus that is just a intake and exaust performance wise, and a SVT that gets less on the skidpad then a escort w/ less then 1k in the suspention, and has gearing that sux for those that want a nice 1/4mi focus, if honda had put teh new Si motor in teh 99-00 Si we would have 15.0-.1 sec Si's now, Ford got lucky that the new Si weighs more then the old one. The rarely pushed the probe GT, that ran dead even w/ the Si. Thy come out w/ a 40k Thunderbird that is a dog even against a Mustang GT, making people that buyit look stupid, the reproduce a GT40, while in the mean time they have no sporty i4 unless you want a hatch back or a 4door. except for honda and dodge(who we will get to) everythere company has a sporty 2door coupes, which is what many people like. Dodge who has a 4door as their sports model can r n dead even in a 1/4 w/ a mustang GT and for about 1k can autoX w/ it, making it a good deal for 20k, when fords ST is slower, and costs teh same after dealer markup, and for 1k you can not make it run even w/ a SRT-4, I have driven many focus and would never trade my ZX2 in for one unless they produced a sporty 2door coupe w/ the 2.3 that actually could proform

umm no a stock car w/a the vct removed (which is REALY easy to do) loses tq on the bottom end(below 3000), this has been proven repeatedly but you get 9hp up top, and the only wayt to make up for it it to tune teh cam gear to change teh power band. and if teh VCT was a wast of m oney then why is it in teh SVT Focus, and new Ford trucks?
Bingo! Remove the VCT and you can add some good cams and or tune the exhaust cam. If tuning the cam isn't important, why do they sell one cam gear to tune the intake?? Tune them both and gain power. Add Crane ST. 2 and gain even more. Just ask how many SVT owners if they'd trash their system to gain tuning ability or cam change??? Focussport has a list of people waiting for them to produce cams for the SVT. Why is it on the trucks??? Ford uses their VCT for better emissions, NOT horsepower. Ever wonder how the SVT Focus got away without the close coupled cats and WITH long tube headers???
Think about it.... Biggest polluters are said to be...... trucks......

And call 1-800FORD-SVT and ast if a svt zx2 prototype was ever made, they will tell you yes, and that it was turbo charged. and seing how it already weighs less then a focus stock fro stock a svt zx2 would weigh less then a svt focus.
Prototype means nothing. In the 80s, there was a red mid-engine turbo charged Escort at Advanced Engine. I worked with advance to build F1 suspension style Cobras that had over 450 hp. We built 10 prototypes. Horizontal shocks, bellcranks and everything.... Where did that project go??? Prototypes too.... We had Cosworth prototype Foci around Dearborn. Still waiting to get that one..... Prototypes are sometimes frustrating show pieces. Built just to gauge interest and fessiblity. Only to leave people longing and wishing. And they'd add a crapload of sound deadening material and other things to "help" the ZX2 to sell, just like they did to the Focus. Beancounters and advertising people sometimes rule. :rolleyes: Crappy, but true.

and for suspention, i zx2 w/ the same springs as a s/r and 17in rims(like im sure an svt would have) hit .97g on a skidpad, thats .06g higher then a svt focus, and still had the stock struts, so im sure that of they just put the s/r suspention and 17's on it it would be able to pull .98g+
Ummm no. The S/R came with poly bushings and better shocks. Tokico(i believe). The 17s hurt performance much more than help. They weight too much. 17"s that weight 22 lbs!! You think all that rotational mass helps???

The Focus has passive rear steer. It has great potential. The fact that Ford added monster void filled bushings hurt that ability. A standard ZX3 with just some well placed poly bushings and a 22mm rear sway will turn into a handling monster. The passive rear steer will come into full effect, not longer will the car heavily understeer. A flick of the steering wheel will kick the rear out and in a very controlable manner. The car comes into it's own on a road course. With the passive rear steer, the Focus becomes a momentum car. The suspension can handle much higher turning speeds than it really should.
Look at how complex the rear suspension on the Focus is...
Volvo and Mazda love the rear suspension. Mazda is using it on the 3. The only thing they thought they could improve on it is....
Stiffening. The opposite of what Ford did when they brought the Focus over here.
If you drove a Focus and came away unimpressed....
You didn't push the car hard enough to engage the passive rear steer.
With Konis, springs, polys, rear sways and a couple of engine bolt ons and full interior(minus backseat) I can put in better lap times that many ITB Mustangs. Waterford Hills 1:25.38, 1:29.38, 1:27.12
For reference, 450 whp race Mustangs with r-compounds average around 1:17 around that course.

Ford is kind of getting the message...
Look at "Revolt. Build. Rise." They're releasing the SVT parts cheap, body kits and performance parts.

no shit they also have better struts and mounts and bushings, and is 17's suck so hard then why do they use them in rally and many autoX people prefer them?

And you compairing droping a VCT from a SVT to a zx2, the VCT is what gives the ZX2 is great tq curve all teh way to red about 5800, and the s/r much better TQ from 2500RMP all the way to redline, infact unless you are going fro a strict race motor, it is a lot easier to leave the VCT inplace. all that you will gain out of it is 9hp, and that not enought to do anything.

and i know people that have 10 mods on a zx2 and are geting just shy of 170whp, and have spent a lot less then it would cost to buy a SVT

17 .... You haven't been to may auto crosses and or do not know the rules. Most Foci that attend use the smallest wheel allowable. Aluminum weighs more than rubber. It's that simple. Ask someone that knows the rules. Running 16s on a SVT Focus tosses it into a higher class. If 17s are so helpful, please explain this....
Hint: It has to do with rotational mass and it's effect on acceleration and braking.
Rallying?!??! You have to be kidding me...... WRC Focus has 290 hp and around 440 tq and all wheel drive goodness.... I don't think they're as concerned about rotational mass. They're more concerned with BRAKE clearance. And they use those OZ racing wheels. Under 17 lbs, not 22lbs.
Please go to a race track, ask and learn. Most racers will talk your ear off. They're a valuable and free resource. :bigthumb:

Your wrong about what the VCT on the ZX2 is for. It is not meant to give horsepower or torque. But please don't take my word for it.
This from Bob Mordorski :
"Starting in 1998, Ford began using variable camshaft timing (VCT) on the 2.0L DOHC engine used in the Contour/Mystique and Escort cars. The purpose of varying the exhaust camshaft timing on these engines is to help reduce emissions similar to the way an EGR valve would, and also to help increase fuel economy. By retarding the exhaust cam timing, some of the inert exhaust gas is left in the cylinder for the next intake stroke. This in turn cools the combustion chamber, reducing NOx and HC emissions. With the VCT, there is no need for an EGR valve, since retarding the exhaust camshaft timing creates the same effect.

The total amount the exhaust cam can be retarded is 30 degrees (60 degrees of crankshaft revolution). The exhaust camshaft has a reluctor ring on it to trigger the camshaft position sensor. The reluctor ring consists of four equally spaced teeth, with one additional tooth in the middle to designate where the TDC is. Sometimes the reluctor ring is called a 4+1.

When the PCM compares the camshaft position sensor signal to the crankshaft position sensor signal, it can then determine where the camshaft is and if it is moving properly when it commands the VCT solenoid to actuate. The VCT solenoid is supplied with engine oil pressure and uses that internally to create a mechanical force to adjust the position of the exhaust cam gear on the exhaust cam. "

Bob Mordorski is an IDENTIFIX Ford specialist.

If you think you can only gain 9 hp and lose tq by adding a set of stage 2 or 3 cams, you are misguided. With the VCT using these cams are not possible. A ZX3 with stage three cams, cam gears, a chip, long tube headers, a exhaust and a intake can easily put down 170 whp or more and that's only 6 mods. I had those mods (except st 2 cams)and put down 150 whp and 155 wtq. And with weighing less than a SVT Focus can walk on them.

With the ZX2(as with most), low weight rules.

umm i said that removing the vct gained 9hp and lost tq, i didnt say anythign aobut changing the cams, and NO WHERE did i say that the VCT on teh zx2 was ment fro performance. of you cared to read you would have seen that and not posted a long as post that ment absolutly nothing aside from you 17's point

I have a question for you zx2srdotnet, if you dislike Ford's way of marketing, what got you to buy a zx2? By the way, the SRT-4 is a good car, but it's still a neon, or should I say a bitch car. The interior looks like it's made more out of plastic then a barbie doll. I can't stand those cars. I bet if you took the turbo out of it, it would be no better than the SVT Focus.

So much for everyone just enjoying their day...i'll interject on one point here.

The focus SVT is meant to run with the pocket rocket crowd..the Sentra SPEC V and all that sort of thing...and it succeeds. It's a better all round car then the Sentra, and blows the doors off an SI. I can't speak for the tuned out Protege (if it's even on the market yet?) though. We all know an SRT Neon (even though it's still a friggin Neon!) and the WRX still out perform it straight line, it's mean to compete in that group.

For straight line performance of that group, i'd say the Subaru and the SRT have it hands down. But through some twists and curves at the cars, and the Focus SVT is right there with Subaru's all wheel drive. I say this because when i was selling i was a demo driver for an SVT event at the dealership. I took a rounded-off 90 degree turn at 75 MILES an hour and that damn little thing stuck like glue! The guy i was demo-ing made me do it again, and then he tried it, thought i was doing something fishy.

So based on that first hand experience, if you take away the SRT's turbo and the Subaru's turbo, i think you've got a hell of good competitor.

Also, as far as too expensive and tuning...yeah this is true, but a co-worker at the dealership sold an SVT Focus to a guy who does small time rally racing. The guy changed the tires, raised the suspension, added a roll cage, rally lights, and stripped out the needless crap from the interior (ie radio, a/c) and races the car. Other then what i've mentioned, it's a stock vehicle., and does very well from what i understand.

Sorry, when i saw that was still so very involved i had to come back and add my :2cents: to the equation.

I have a question for you zx2srdotnet, if you dislike Ford's way of marketing, what got you to buy a zx2? By the way, the SRT-4 is a good car, but it's still a neon, or should I say a bitch car. The interior looks like it's made more out of plastic then a barbie doll. I can't stand those cars. I bet if you took the turbo out of it, it would be no better than the SVT Focus.

cuz it was the fastest car i could get stock for 7k that didnt have 60+k on it, if i have found a nice priced, 99-00 Si, gsr, probe GT or such i would have gotten it

but for the reord, no where on the car, or on ny Dodge press or paperwork do they say "neon SRT-4" they were sart to keep the neon name off of it

but for the reord, no where on the car, or on ny Dodge press or paperwork do they say "neon SRT-4" they were sart to keep the neon name off of it

But if you can't see the obvious, just how stupid are you?? (I'm not saying you personally, i mean as a generalization.)

:screwy:

A Neon is still a neon, it's got a hopped up motor and a spoiler. Whoopy.

Sentra SPEC V, Sentra with the Xterra's suspension (or so the ride dictates) and a hopped up motor.

I could go on. At least the Focus has some engineering put into it in the way of suspension, and Different engine. Better all-round made car and better value for your money.

its just a neon body, different interior, tranny, motor, suspention... my obviouse point was that Dodge made it a point to not use the name "neon" with the SRT-4

and Ford basicly just imported a ST170 and minorly changed it, Dodge and GM are the only 2 companies that actually produce the demo's that recieve a great reaction.

its just a neon body, different interior, tranny, motor, suspention... my obviouse point was that Dodge made it a point to not use the name "neon" with the SRT-4

and Ford basicly just imported a ST170 and minorly changed it, Dodge and GM are the only 2 companies that actually produce the demo's that recieve a great reaction.

Your wrong.... The ST170 is a SVT sent over to Europe.... :eek7: . It was done here, by SVT. Shows how much you know.... And I told you before demos and prototypes mean crap. What the Cadavalier still uses that unchanged 1980s suspension. Even the Neon got rid of the twist beam suspension......

The SRT-4 STILL has the neon suspension. Please tell me where they got rid of the strut suspension??? SRT-4 just has stiffer struts and sway bars. It's not different. It even uses the same springs. Straight from the Dodge press release:
SUSPENSION
Front ___________MacPherson struts, asymmetrical lower control arms, coil springs, link-type stabilizer bar — SE and SXT;
stiffer struts and stabilizer bar — R/T and SRT-4
Rear _____________________Chapman struts, coil springs, dual lower transverse links, lower trailing links — SE and SXT;
stiffer struts and stabilizer bar — R/T and SRT-4

You really don't know alot about what your talking about..... really.
Because that press release right on the top:
"2004 NEON"

And look the R/T and SRT-4 has the same suspension. I guess the R/T isn't a "neon" either. :rolleyes:

And before you posted this piece:
removing helps you get a better top end, but reduces your bottom end tq, and you dont need to have teh VCT replaced there re now places that will re grind teh stock exasust zx2 cam for ou, making its a lot more pointless to eliminate the VCT, on a fuly buit Zetec motor the VCT delete only added 8 tq to the top end, not really worth the time unless you are going stricly race

and then had the nerve to post:
umm i said that removing the vct gained 9hp and lost tq, i didnt say anythign aobut changing the cams, and NO WHERE did i say that the VCT on teh zx2 was ment fro performance. of you cared to read you would have seen that and not posted a long as post that ment absolutly nothing aside from you 17's point

It's not worth deleteing the VCT??? Pointless???? And on a FULLY built motor only added 8tq to the top???? WTF?? Your words. Please tell me WHAT "fully built" motor doesn't at least have cams???? :eek: And what is your idea of a "fully built" motor is??? A APC intake and a cat-back?? Please.

You really need to read and learn more, and post less. You really don't know what your talking about. Your just spewing stuff you believe true or what someone told you. Your 17 and your S/R is your first car. You've never worked on a engine except to change the oil and air filter.
You have no idea of how suspensions work, so please do everyone a favor and stop posting until you learn more.

aight it's my turn to school all you jap crap lovers out there makin fun of the focus....first of all if any of you are real patrions to your country..why are you buying foreign made cars that give the japs money? i bet none of you ever looked at it that way.If your gonna buy a honda civic you might as well go out and buy one of their lawnmowers with self propel and ride that around b/c thats all a civic is worth! they sound like sick weedeaters with a 1-2" diameter exhaust pipe. You guys really want a car that sounds like ur farts...theres something seriously wrong with you. You guys might want to check out the ratings for top cars again b/c just recently the Ford Focus SVT was rated #1. Beat that you jap crap lovers!