Interesting find...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/heinz.asp

Who was that claimed that the propaganda was only coming from the Kerry side?

I didn't thoroughly read through that. But wasn't it her first husband that actually owned Heinz and she just inherited a part of it as part of the divorce?

To keep in pace with the topic at hand here's this (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/s_169770.html)

To keep in pace with the topic at hand here's this (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/s_169770.html)

I should mention that it is interesting that such interesting "news" is in the "opinion" page of the newspaper, by a "guest writer", no less.

You're grabbing at straws there carnutt

You're grabbing at straws there carnutt

LOL

Don't expect me to take YOU seriously anytime soon, bub. You've shown a level of rabid fanaticism that is usually reserved for cult followers. Yeah, you're the one I'll turn to for important decisions. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/screwy.gif

You see me through your eyes...I see you through my eyes....maybe we aren't so different after all.

You see me through your eyes...I see you through my eyes....maybe we aren't so different after all.

BAMMO! That's the best comback I've seen yet! Nice one!

Anyways, I'll bet the rest of the family is chewing sticks thinking that their money supports that turd now...

Honestly, if I saw myself seeing through the eyes of a fanatical right wing American, I'd be tempted to gouge them out for the good of mankind.

Seriously, the democrats are right of centre to the rest of the western world, and the republicans are a whole different story.

You see me through your eyes...I see you through my eyes....maybe we aren't so different after all.
Please.

I highly doubt that I, at any point, have sounded as fanatic as you in here. I never said Kerry doesn't lie.

As a matter of fact, I'll openly say that he sickens me EXACTLY as much as GWB does. I just prefer him, as his Liberal policies will be kept in check by a Republican Congress, as opposed to Bush's liberal spending, which the same Republican Congress just rubber-stamps on their way out. With Bush, Congress is nothing more than a tool, a pen he uses to sign whatever flight of fancy him, and his cabinet (especially Cheney) decides to embark on.

I defend Kerry in here, but only as far as the items I have found and read about him carry, like about his "questionable" service or his "ketchup money". I am hoping to counter the propaganda that Bush robots like you are propagating, so that people may think for themselves, instead of being taken by the emotional response you guys are hoping for when you post slanderous shit like that mass e-mail that my link refutes.

If you feel the same way about what people have said, or posted about Bush, and feel that he is being slandered also, post some proof, or even maybe a link, purporting to proof. Not some op-ed piece...

The trouble is...no liberal accepts "proof" unless that "proof" comes from their own slanted sources.

The trouble is,much of what the extreme right refers to as facts is opinion.But in the deluded world of the fanatic,fact is opinion,opinion is fact,and anyone that disagrees is a liar.

The trouble is...no liberal accepts "proof" unless that "proof" comes from their own slanted sources.

LOL

Nice cop-out.

<whiny voice>"Why show proof, when no one will believe it anyways."</whiny voice>

A simplistic response. Let's just say, it suits you.

The trouble is...no liberal accepts "proof" unless that "proof" comes from their own slanted sources.

Proof is just that. Proof.

There is no disputing proof, it is by definition indisputable, and does not matter what source it comes from. If you can clearly demonstrate something to be a fact, it is proof. If the National Enquirer can prove that last week, Elvis walked into Subway and ordered a ham sandwich, it's proof.

If Fox News can prove that Iraq was preparing to attack the US, that is one thing. They couldn't, however. Which is why they kept running the same story, the little snippets like "Intelligence experts are investigating links between Iraq and Al Qaeda" or "The White House said today that Iraq may have close ties to terrorist organizations, possibly including funding" and other such little bits of fluff.

It's not proof, it's propaganda. If you hear the same variety of fluff for 6 months, it quickly becomes the truth to you.

This place is loaded with fanatics - even the ones who don't believe they are. Lots of narrow views. Lots of hatred flowing around. And the best part is, it keeps me entertianed :smile:













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post some proof, or even maybe a link, purporting to proof.
Actually the "proving" should be in YOUR court! YOU are the accuser. YOU do the proving.

Kerry has been CAUGHT in his lies.
"I threw away my medals"
"I didn't throw my medals away"

Negative eye-witness testamonies of the men who served with and under him sure outnumber those favoring him.

Honestly, if I saw myself seeing through the eyes of a fanatical right wing American, I'd be tempted to gouge them out for the good of mankind.

Seriously, the democrats are right of centre to the rest of the western world, and the republicans are a whole different story.

As in the Democrats are conservative compared to the rest of the world? Damn... maybe we should have caused a nuclear war and wiped the planet out, better death by war then to be roboticized into a walking talking rectum, (which spews out words and ideas that amount to the same thing a real rectum pushes out), by liberals. Liberal mindsets are going to be the downfall of society eventually. Pretty soon it's going to be 'a brave new world' and 'Fahrenheit 451' turned reality thanks to them.

Err, um, who's talking about which party being walking rectums and restricting liberty? This might be a case of the pot calling the kettle black (or the oregano green)
While the democrats have made stupid laws (no smoking in New York, and other cities) they're not the only party doing their darndest to destroy America's liberties.
Conservatives, they don't want abortion, they don't want gay marriage - I'm never going to have an abortion, or marry a guy, but these are liberties. But I'm never going to smoke in new york either, and that it's illegal bothers me as well.
Conservatives disslike people with differing opinions, or values. They don't want people to be different than them, it makes them uncomfortable. as you wrote, you'd rather that everybody on earth be dead, than hold an opinion opposite of yours.
Don't criticize the other side for having the exact same problems as your own, and try to put them down for it.

Conservatives disslike people with differing opinions, or values. They don't want people to be different than them, it makes them uncomfortable.
Sounds like Democrats to me.

As in the Democrats are conservative compared to the rest of the world? Damn... maybe we should have caused a nuclear war and wiped the planet out, better death by war then to be roboticized into a walking talking rectum, (which spews out words and ideas that amount to the same thing a real rectum pushes out), by liberals. Liberal mindsets are going to be the downfall of society eventually. Pretty soon it's going to be 'a brave new world' and 'Fahrenheit 451' turned reality thanks to them.

Actually, while the rest of the world seems to be making social progress, the US seems to be socially regressing, the power is returning to the wealthy and the politically minded, the gap between the rich and the poor is steadily widening again, education is going the way of the dodo, and all the American people can find to do are bicker endlessly about who's republican and who's a democrat, and why the other guy is wrong.

Maybe I just have a jaundiced eye, being a non American who is exposed to all forms of American culture, has been dating an American for quite some time, and have spent a consideral portion of the last twelve months in the US.

Actually, while the rest of the world seems to be making social progress, the US seems to be socially regressing, the power is returning to the wealthy and the politically minded, the gap between the rich and the poor is steadily widening again, education is going the way of the dodo, and all the American people can find to do are bicker endlessly about who's republican and who's a democrat, and why the other guy is wrong.

Maybe I just have a jaundiced eye, being a non American who is exposed to all forms of American culture, have been dating an American for quite some time, and have spent a consideral portion of the last twelve months in the US.
You kind of did hit the nail on the head. I went to public school my entire life, but faired fine. But I was also lucky enough to have teachers that affected me in a postive light along the way. I can tell you each teacher and why I view them as a good educator and/or person to admire. But I've been blessed with good parents/family/friends and two things I feel are very key in my life common sense/logical thinkning and honesty.

As far as the gap between the rich and poor the problem which I've said numerous times is laziness and welfare. The laziness is passed from parent to child. The parent(s) shows little if no interest in the childs life and therefore leads to criminal mischief. Laziness also runs into the marriage. Couples are too quick to hollar divorce, than seek counseling.

By the way CBass or any other's outside the U.S., does Europe and other continents/countries have a Welfare type system? Never really knew if they did or not. If so how does it compare/differ from our very very flawed system?

As far as the gap between the rich and poor the problem which I've said numerous times is laziness and welfare. The laziness is passed from parent to child. The parent(s) shows little if no interest in the childs life and therefore leads to criminal mischief. Laziness also runs into the marriage. Couples are too quick to hollar divorce, than seek counseling.

What are you? A social engineer? I understand that there is a lot of common sense behind your words, and I agree somewhat. Just pay attention where it starts to stereotype people.

Also, I was a Corrections Officer. You'd be surprised how many of the inmates I have dealt with came from respectable, 2-parent families.

Lastly, it's easy to call judgement from where you are sitting, but unless you can claim to have "been there" so to speak, I would say you have no right to claim that you know how anybody else thinks or reacts.

As far as the gap between the rich and poor the problem which I've said numerous times is laziness and welfare. The laziness is passed from parent to child. The parent(s) shows little if no interest in the childs life and therefore leads to criminal mischief. Laziness also runs into the marriage. Couples are too quick to hollar divorce, than seek counseling.


normally, i respect the insight of your posts a great deal, but im going to have to call you on this one.


the gap between the rich and the poor is perpetuated by many things, and while laziness might be one of them, it is not "the one". the availability of a job for every willing and able american is one of the greatest myths of American culture. in fact, ill point to myself as an example. I am a hard working, white, middle class, male. arguebly the best demographic for getting a job, especially in central arkansas. I have given my resume to no less than 30 people and filled out over 100 application in the past two months (including Wal Mart, which is HUGE because i despise them in every way possible, but im depserate for work) and i remain unemployed. Where is this great american work force that i can step into?

actually the gap is being perpetuated by capitalism. welcome to america. it is built into the system that we will have the extremely poor and the extremely rich. its part of the price we pay for "business freedom". this, of course, isnt helped when the government gives huge tax breaks to the upper crust of society, and 60% of corporations continue to not have to pay any taxes at all.

i also suggest you do a search on "culture of poverty" and investigate how dibiliting poverty is to the personal pysche and how poverty perpetuates poverty, not because of laziness, but because of how utterly overwhelming it is.


also, it is not the government, or any particular parties, fault that our freedoms are eroding. each side has done its share of digging away at the foundations of this nation. but the blame lies in the populace for apathetically accepting what is happening. lets keep in mind that if do not give our support to those inpower, the system is built so that they will no longer be in power. but here we are blindly backing a corrupt system, arguing over what party did what.

Lazysmurff, I don't think I could have said it better myself.

Jason, I can't think of a western nation that does not have a welfare system, or some form of social security net to protect those without work.

In my province, we have a fairly good welfare system, albeit underfunded. A single man or women gets a set amount, it's a tad over $500 a month I think, parents get more, couples living together get less, etc. Part of the system is a job initiative to get those people employed, which I applaud.

Unfortunately, there aren't enough jobs to go around, and welfare only gives you the bare minimum you need to scrape by. It does not afford enough to move to another region and seek employment...

You kind of did hit the nail on the head. I went to public school my entire life, but faired fine. But I was also lucky enough to have teachers that affected me in a postive light along the way. I can tell you each teacher and why I view them as a good educator and/or person to admire. But I've been blessed with good parents/family/friends and two things I feel are very key in my life common sense/logical thinkning and honesty.

As far as the gap between the rich and poor the problem which I've said numerous times is laziness and welfare. The laziness is passed from parent to child. The parent(s) shows little if no interest in the childs life and therefore leads to criminal mischief. Laziness also runs into the marriage. Couples are too quick to hollar divorce, than seek counseling.


Well said. As someone who dealt with Low Income and Section 8 residents (stop in www.hud.gov (http://www.hud.gov) to learn more :p) for more then a decade I can say that is the absolute truth! A large portion (over 80%)of those residents recieve welfare and other goverment handouts. SSI, SS, HAP, UAP, etc. The number of people who actually need help is fairly small. The number of lazy people just laying around waiting on their handout it to damn high.

Not only are their people on welfare who don't belong and are sucking up my tax money, there are many administrators skimming off the top as well. The amount of money wasted on fraud and laziness is phenomenal. If it wouldn't cost me my job (on the off chance certain people were to see this) I could name names and places of it right now.













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How about some numbers to back up those claims? Real dollar figures, to show exactly how much the system costs, and a definition of who really needs the support, and some demographics to support your claim of an 80/20% split.

I didn't thoroughly read through that. But wasn't it her first husband that actually owned Heinz and she just inherited a part of it as part of the divorce?


Going back to the second post in this thread...

You're damn right you didn't read the article, if you consider death a divorce then that's one hell of a settlement she got!

Well said. As someone who dealt with Low Income and Section 8 residents (stop in www.hud.gov (http://www.hud.gov) to learn more :p) for more then a decade I can say that is the absolute truth! A large portion (over 80%)of those residents recieve welfare and other goverment handouts. SSI, SS, HAP, UAP, etc. The number of people who actually need help is fairly small. The number of lazy people just laying around waiting on their handout it to damn high.

Not only are their people on welfare who don't belong and are sucking up my tax money, there are many administrators skimming off the top as well. The amount of money wasted on fraud and laziness is phenomenal. If it wouldn't cost me my job (on the off chance certain people were to see this) I could name names and places of it right now.
If it werent for welfare fraud then there wouldn't be much government jobs trakcing down who is using the money wisely, and I am not sure of other areas, but with welfare checks comes manidtory classes that one must take to improve their job skills or aquire new ones. It was a good idea this welfare, but liek everything, there will be people who try and take advantage of the system

The hard part of showing you the values for the number of people recieving welfare is that its from actual data. I am not comfortable reveiling which housing authorities I compiled it from. Lets suffice it to say you can figure it out by stopping by http://www.emphasysworld.com/sub/about.asp and paying close attention to the line that says "Our software is used to manage over 1.1 million of the 2.8 million HUD subsidized units across the nation." And, we have a copy of the data from all those authorities inhouse (called EIT sites) for various reasons. If 40% of the housing units isn't a good sampling - then I don't know what is.

If you'd like to know the data being tracked. Take a look at http://www.hudclips.org/sub_nonhud/html/pdfforms/50058.pdf and see the information that is being tracked on those housing units. The families, income, assets etc.


Now remember, that 1.1 is only for the HUD sponsered subisdy. There are state programs and local programs (county and city leve) that have much more. We don't have a large portion of the state agencies - yet.













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What are you? A social engineer? I understand that there is a lot of common sense behind your words, and I agree somewhat. Just pay attention where it starts to stereotype people.

Also, I was a Corrections Officer. You'd be surprised how many of the inmates I have dealt with came from respectable, 2-parent families.

Lastly, it's easy to call judgement from where you are sitting, but unless you can claim to have "been there" so to speak, I would say you have no right to claim that you know how anybody else thinks or reacts.
You're right. I wasn't intentionally trying to stereotype. Because I know that people stray even given the best of everything. Which can also be a bad thing. I'm sure there are a number of rich kids or who are now adults out there that didn't go to college and think the money will be there forever.

Going back to the second post in this thread...

You're damn right you didn't read the article, if you consider death a divorce then that's one hell of a settlement she got!
I was just posing a question. You could have just said he had died and that's how she inherited the corp.

And CBass thanks for answering my question on welfare of other countries.

Err, um, who's talking about which party being walking rectums and restricting liberty? This might be a case of the pot calling the kettle black (or the oregano green)
While the democrats have made stupid laws (no smoking in New York, and other cities) they're not the only party doing their darndest to destroy America's liberties.
Conservatives, they don't want abortion, they don't want gay marriage - I'm never going to have an abortion, or marry a guy, but these are liberties. But I'm never going to smoke in new york either, and that it's illegal bothers me as well.
Conservatives disslike people with differing opinions, or values. They don't want people to be different than them, it makes them uncomfortable. as you wrote, you'd rather that everybody on earth be dead, than hold an opinion opposite of yours.
Don't criticize the other side for having the exact same problems as your own, and try to put them down for it.


Abortion is an issue which could be debated into the ground, I personally don't consider killing children a 'liberty', apparently the bra-burners do though, so since it became a 'struggle for freedom' it suddenly stopped being a moral issue and became a 'liberty' issue, which in today’s society closes minds, (and mouths), instantly.

As for the taking of our rights, It'll probably end up like a mix of Demolition man and brave new world actually, they'll take away the right to eat what you want and do what you want, simply because you might 'hurt yourself' or because it's 'unhealthy' and they think they're doing you a favor.

Then on the other hand, there's the liberals fighting for stem cell and genetic research, all in the name of 'helping people', abortion 'rights', all kinds of birth controls and you can pretty much name any type of sexual orientation or deviance that they'll accept or even push. Sex education at a very young age...demanding more socialistic government programs, demanding the legalization of drugs… etc. The so-called elimination of 'classes', but in fact, the creation of classes which are dependant on the government to support them...except the elite ones that is, (government workers, politicians).... Sound familiar? Brave new world... here we come. With liberals at the helm, it's only a matter of time, and I'm seeing more and more liberal bullshit being spoon-fed to people who accept it as gospel every year, month, week, day. It's disgusting. If you think that there's no way any liberal leaders would let it go to that extreme, just remember, liberals are supposedly the ones more open to change here, so why would they have any reason to protest it? They're the ones introducing it.

normally, i respect the insight of your posts a great deal, but im going to have to call you on this one.

[rant]
the gap between the rich and the poor is perpetuated by many things, and while laziness might be one of them, it is not "the one". the availability of a job for every willing and able american is one of the greatest myths of American culture. in fact, ill point to myself as an example. I am a hard working, white, middle class, male. arguebly the best demographic for getting a job, especially in central arkansas. I have given my resume to no less than 30 people and filled out over 100 application in the past two months (including Wal Mart, which is HUGE because i despise them in every way possible, but im depserate for work) and i remain unemployed. Where is this great american work force that i can step into?


Not in Arkansas, that's for sure.

Abortion is an issue which could be debated into the ground, I personally don't consider killing children a 'liberty', apparently the bra-burners do though, so since it became a 'struggle for freedom' it suddenly stopped being a moral issue and became a 'liberty' issue, which in today’s society closes minds, (and mouths), instantly.


Just because something doesn't agree with your conservative ideals doesn't mean it should be illegal. It is a woman's right to choose.


As for the taking of our rights, It'll probably end up like a mix of Demolition man and brave new world actually, they'll take away the right to eat what you want and do what you want, simply because you might 'hurt yourself' or because it's 'unhealthy' and they think they're doing you a favor.


Do you actually believe that? Please tell me you don't.


Then on the other hand, there's the liberals fighting for stem cell and genetic research, all in the name of 'helping people', abortion 'rights', all kinds of birth controls and you can pretty much name any type of sexual orientation or deviance that they'll accept or even push. Sex education at a very young age...demanding more socialistic government programs, demanding the legalization of drugs… etc.


Hmm, sounds like social progress to me. Step outside of your narrow right wing view for a minute, and contemplate this. Kids are getting into sex way earlier than they used to, so is it a better idea to let them learn by themselves, and by getting pregnant at 13 or 14, or is it a better idea to teach them about it at 12?

As for sexual orientation, that's a matter of personal choice, and is none of your business. I fail to see what is wrong with genetic research, or stem cell research, except that it offends Christians, and I don't particularly care if it does.

Legalization of drugs means you take unimaginable power away from organized crime, the drug becomes cheaper and standardized, so you don't end up with junkies living on the street trying to rob people for money, and on top of that, you can tax the hell out of it to make for more gov't revenues.

Yes, liberals believe in widespread social programs, that's one of the defining characteristics of a liberal... What's your point? Do you even have one, or are you just on a liberal bashing spree because you can't think of anything more intelligent to say? :rolleyes:

[/quote]
The so-called elimination of 'classes', but in fact, the creation of classes which are dependant on the government to support them...except the elite ones that is, (government workers, politicians)...[/QUOTE]

Why don't you explain your reasoning for that statement, because I can't see it.

Just because something doesn't agree with your conservative ideals doesn't mean it should be illegal. It is a woman's right to choose.
...So...it is the woman's right to choose to murder her baby? So Susan Smith from SCarolina should be released from prison. She just waited a little too long to do it.

Brave new world... here we come. With liberals at the helm, it's only a matter of time, and I'm seeing more and more liberal bullshit being spoon-fed to people who accept it as gospel every year, month, week, day. It's disgusting.
You seemed to swallow and regurgitate that "assfull" of conservative* bullshit pretty easily.
If you want make fun of somebody for messin' their pants, you better check your own pants first... :)
It could go either way, niether side wants to protect your rights, all they want to do is take your liberties away and restrict your choices, you can not claim that one side is any more "open minded" than the other - that's just rediculous.
I could say something stupid about the conservative party "ending freedom", don't you forget it that there are such things as "conservative" dictators - just because you're to the right in no way means you support individuals rights!

*not conservative, just unfounded and downright silly beliefs.

Just because something doesn't agree with your conservative ideals doesn't mean it should be illegal. It is a woman's right to choose.


See? Turned into a 'rights' issue, so now if you debate against it, it's a 'right' of theirs and you can't touch 'rights' now can you? Remember the right to 'life liberty and the pursuit of happiness'? Notice it doesn't say the right 'to decide who gets life and who doesn't, your own life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.'


Do you actually believe that? Please tell me you don't.


Why don't you open YOUR eyes for once and see the big picture, that's the road all of this stuff is headed down.

Hmm, sounds like social progress to me. Step outside of your narrow right wing view for a minute, and contemplate this. Kids are getting into sex way earlier than they used to, so is it a better idea to let them learn by themselves, and by getting pregnant at 13 or 14, or is it a better idea to teach them about it at 12?

As for sexual orientation, that's a matter of personal choice, and is none of your business. I fail to see what is wrong with genetic research, or stem cell research, except that it offends Christians, and I don't particularly care if it does.

Legalization of drugs means you take unimaginable power away from organized crime, the drug becomes cheaper and standardized, so you don't end up with junkies living on the street trying to rob people for money, and on top of that, you can tax the hell out of it to make for more gov't revenues.

Yes, liberals believe in widespread social programs, that's one of the defining characteristics of a liberal... What's your point? Do you even have one, or are you just on a liberal bashing spree because you can't think of anything more intelligent to say? :rolleyes:


Yeah, go read the book if you don't know what I'm comparing all this stuff to. If you can't see the resemblance that society is taking to brave new world, you are BLIND. Do you want to be a good little automaton like all the other good little liberals are turning into?
[/quote]
The so-called elimination of 'classes', but in fact, the creation of classes which are dependant on the government to support them...except the elite ones that is, (government workers, politicians)...[/QUOTE]


explain your reasoning for that statement, because I can't see it.

Ever hear of the welfare state? Those dependent on social security for their livelihood? The bureaucracy? They're all classes, whether you think they are or not.

I retain my opinion, it's only a matter of time.

You seemed to swallow and regurgitate that "assfull" of conservative* bullshit pretty easily.
If you want make fun of somebody for messin' their pants, you better check your own pants first... :)
It could go either way, niether side wants to protect your rights, all they want to do is take your liberties away and restrict your choices, you can not claim that one side is any more "open minded" than the other - that's just rediculous.
I could say something stupid about the conservative party "ending freedom", don't you forget it that there are such things as "conservative" dictators - just because you're to the right in no way means you support individuals rights!

*not conservative, just unfounded and downright silly beliefs.

Ah yes... but what happens when a conservative gets put on the general airwaives now? His views are looked down upon as 'limiting the rights of others' and he's ridiculed as an idiot by the mainstream media, isn't he, 2stroke? I see MANY more liberals in view and being heard than I do conservatives, although I guess that's their perspective natures.

The world needs a balance of the two opinions, and it's getting nothing but radical extremes of one or the other, but mostly of liberal views. Dictators and a fearful public on the conservative side, or machine-like corporate or socialistic oligarchies and a mindlessly 'blissful' public on the liberal side. Neither is desireable, but dictators die eventually and when they die so does their government. It's a cult of personality after all. How easy is it to change an entire generations beliefs and topple a dictatorship of many? Liberalism would be, (and is), much harder to reverse than conservatism is.

justacruiser: maybe you need to look again, man. Both the White House and Capitol Hill are ruled by (claimed) conservatives. They're being heard just fine.

Of all the myriad 'complexes' people get, the one I find most amusing, and annoying all at the same time, is the 'persecution complex'. Usually translated to: "Well, they're trying to keep me down, so I have an excuse to be an ass/annoyance." Which in turn translates to: "I can whine all I want about whatever I want."

justacruiser: Of all the myriad 'complexes' people get, the one I find most amusing, and annoying all at the same time, is the 'persecution complex'. Usually translated to: "Well, they're trying to keep me down, so I have an excuse to be an ass/annoyance." Which in turn translates to: "I can whine all I want about whatever I want."
That's what we hear from the Libs all the time! Whining about Bush is so old!! That is the ONLY thing I don't look forward to when he gets re-elected. 4 more years of liberal, petty whining!

.Oh ..........the irony!

Honestly, if I saw myself seeing through the eyes of a fanatical right wing American, I'd be tempted to gouge them out for the good of mankind.

Seriously, the democrats are right of centre to the rest of the western world, and the republicans are a whole different story.
That's funny seeing as we're the most powerful country in the world . What damn great ideas liberalism, socialism, and communism are!! You can stick to your feel-good ideas on politics. I'll take my American flag and fly it high above the rest of the world.

That's funny seeing as we're the most powerful country in the world


That is, if you don't count the EU as a country... It isn't really, but it's getting closer every day. :naughty:


What damn great ideas liberalism, socialism, and communism are!! You can stick to your feel-good ideas on politics. I'll take my American flag and fly it high above the rest of the world.

Are you're saying is that being American somehow makes you better than people from other nations?

Keep in mind, liberalism and socialism contribute greatly to the standard of living for the average citizen.

That is, if you don't count the EU as a country... It isn't really, but it's getting closer every day. :naughty:



Are you're saying is that being American somehow makes you better than people from other nations?

Keep in mind, liberalism and socialism contribute greatly to the standard of living for the average citizen.
The EU will crumble. Give it time. Just like the empires built by all its members.

Keep in mind, liberalism and socialism contribute greatly to the standard of living for the average citizen.

Having lived most of my life in a socialist country (2 of them as a matter of fact), I can say that the standard of living FORCED UPON its average citizens, is rock bottom.
And, like justacruiser said, the "elite" - members of the government, and local bodies (ones who decide where the money goes) have a whole different way of life.
Just as an example, my mother had a kidney operation about 10 years ago, in a clinic that was previosuly reserved for government officials, diplomats and their families (but is now available to anyone willing to pay for it). The difference between that one, and the similar facilities where an "average citizen" would be sent (like the one my mother got initially put in to), is staggering. More qualified doctors, modern equipment, everything is clean, individual rooms for patients instead of 7 being crammed into the same one.
I'm sure you've heard before, that even where everyone is "equal" some are more equal than others.

EU become one country? :spit: The Turks and the Greeks agreeing to that? The English and the Irish? Just imagine the French and anyone else :rofl: Now that is funny :lol:













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No it's just a ploy to make it all one big Germany.
But then again, who ever thought that Texas and Arkansas could get along with Delaware and Maine. Perhaps West Virginia, but the all the other states? Now that I think it about it, it is kind of funny.

Keep in mind, liberalism and socialism contribute greatly to the standard of living for the average citizen.
OH...MY...GOD!!!!!

justacruiser: maybe you need to look again, man. Both the White House and Capitol Hill are ruled by (claimed) conservatives. They're being heard just fine.

Of all the myriad 'complexes' people get, the one I find most amusing, and annoying all at the same time, is the 'persecution complex'. Usually translated to: "Well, they're trying to keep me down, so I have an excuse to be an ass/annoyance." Which in turn translates to: "I can whine all I want about whatever I want."

Well, you do hear what the major players in politics say alright, but what light is it portrayed in and what is the whole thing they said? You know American media, whether it's Fox news or CNN they'll chop the shit out of what someone says to make it sound like they're saying something they aren't. It's the way they get their ratings.

Fox is the only conservative network out there, though radio has many more conservative talk shows than it does liberal ones for some reason. All the major papers are liberal, many magazines are and Hollywood is 100% liberal except for the select few who people consider eccentric or crazy, (ie, Mel Gibson somewhat, Kurt Russel). So the message people hear, whether they like it or not, is a liberal one, unless they specifically look for a conservative one.

That is, if you don't count the EU as a country... It isn't really, but it's getting closer every day. :naughty:


Actually that kind of worries me. You just wait, whether the people in the countries themselves like it or not, I'll bet there's going to be another Cold War in the future, one of military might or economic might. Only thing is, there are going to be 3 superpowers if the EU matures. The US, the EU and China.... what the fuck is going to happen then, it was bad enough with only Russia and the US, I can imagine what 3 monster countries would be like when communicating with each-other.

'Og have nuke, me nuke you if you no trade!'

Diplomacy between superpowers always seems to go down the shitter...That's some scary shit.


Keep in mind, liberalism and socialism contribute greatly to the standard of living for the average citizen.

On paper, socialism is an awesome society. In the real world however, it never takes human greed into account. The lust for power wealth and influence will always overcome the 'duty to society' in a few individuals, and a few are all it takes. As for liberalism... 'brave new world'.... I'm telling you, it's going to happen unless this shit gets stopped.

On paper, socialism is an awesome society. In the real world however, it never takes human greed into account. The lust for power wealth and influence will always overcome the 'duty to society' in a few individuals, and a few are all it takes. As for liberalism... 'brave new world'.... I'm telling you, it's going to happen unless this shit gets stopped.

If you're going to cite greed as the major downfall of socialism, maybe you had best look at what type of country you live in first. Greed is far easier to exercise in a purely capitalistic enviroment, like the US.

Having lived most of my life in a socialist country (2 of them as a matter of fact), I can say that the standard of living FORCED UPON its average citizens, is rock bottom.
And, like justacruiser said, the "elite" - members of the government, and local bodies (ones who decide where the money goes) have a whole different way of life.
Just as an example, my mother had a kidney operation about 10 years ago, in a clinic that was previosuly reserved for government officials, diplomats and their families (but is now available to anyone willing to pay for it). The difference between that one, and the similar facilities where an "average citizen" would be sent (like the one my mother got initially put in to), is staggering. More qualified doctors, modern equipment, everything is clean, individual rooms for patients instead of 7 being crammed into the same one.
I'm sure you've heard before, that even where everyone is "equal" some are more equal than others.

Indeed, public health care is often underfunded. The fact is, that it IS funded. If you can afford better private health care, by all means, go ahead and pay for it, and get it sooner. That's a big priviledge, and many can't afford $40k for an operation. I know I certainly wouldn't be able to. I may be getting shitty health care, but I get it for a low premium I pay annually from my taxes. I'm much more comfortable with that than a situation where I can get my name on a list at a charity hospital, and hope that I get my operation before my health fails. Even then, charity hospitals don't have terribly high standards either. I'll take my chances with public health care, thanks.

I'm a Canadian. My taxes aren't much higher than they would be in the US, but I get much more for what I pay when it comes to services and benefits. I wonder why that is...

If you're going to cite greed as the major downfall of socialism, maybe you had best look at what type of country you live in first. Greed is far easier to exercise in a purely capitalistic enviroment, like the US.

But the power gained by it is far harder to remove in a socialistic society.

Indeed, public health care is often underfunded. The fact is, that it IS funded. If you can afford better private health care, by all means, go ahead and pay for it, and get it sooner. That's a big priviledge, and many can't afford $40k for an operation. I know I certainly wouldn't be able to. I may be getting shitty health care, but I get it for a low premium I pay annually from my taxes. I'm much more comfortable with that than a situation where I can get my name on a list at a charity hospital, and hope that I get my operation before my health fails. Even then, charity hospitals don't have terribly high standards either. I'll take my chances with public health care, thanks.



Obviously.
The point I was making, wasnt specifically about health care (that was just an example) - it was that even in a socialist conutries the big gap between rich and poor still exists, society is still divided into classes like everywhere else, and the "God Squad" at the top of the foodchain doesnt want to share their goodies with the average plebs. Whatever the form of government, human nature doesnt change.

I'm a Canadian. My taxes aren't much higher than they would be in the US, but I get much more for what I pay when it comes to services and benefits. I wonder why that is...


sounds familiar. Just like in Russia in the 70's, when we had the biggest tanks and submarines and enough missiles to blow everything to f%$k ten times over yet poverty-level underfunded healthcare, food rationing and all other wonderful things that come with living in a country thats spending all its money getting ready for war.