T-28 Question

I have read that the T-28 looks exactly like the stock T-25. I also know that it requires no modifications to install, unlike a 16g. Is the housing the same as a T-25?....and if so, is there somewhere I purchase an upgrade kit for my T-25? For example I have seen upgrade kits for a 16g to a 20g. If you can't tell I am trying to get a larger turbo as cheap as possible. Thanks!

the t-28 is very expensive, although i have never figured out why, when there are much more capable turbo's out there for much less $$. the cheapest would be a 14b and install kit :)

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclturbos.htm

http://linux.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTDSMFPBIG28&Category_Code=DSM

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54133

Answer: No. If you want a T28 (why?) send your T25 in, and pay $750.

This forum is really down on the T-28, search on www.dsmtuners.com for the most part many of the people on that site find it can put down as much power as a small 16g. It can get expensive, but it isn't so much when you figure in the cost of an install kit for a 16g, not to mention it bolts right on. But don't let anyone tell you a T-28 is slow, they likely don't have any experience with them at all.

the T-28 is slow :p ... for the price!!! you can get a big 16g or even a Evo 16g for about the same amount! even with the kit the makes the 16g fit, look Evo 16g = $550, install kit = $200 that = $750, where the T-28 = $750 to start with! and say you have a 1st gen or a 6 bolt swap its even cheaper cause you dont need the $200 install kit!

Of course you aren't counting the cost for a 6-bolt. Either way I wasn't trying to argue that a T28 is really awesome, but it is comparable to a small 16g, slightly more streetable, and can put out decent power. It doesn't compare to an Evo, but it does take less time to install, and you don't have to put as much into supporting mods. Really what I'm getting at is that a t28 shouldn't automatically be dismissed, especially because people automatically say they are slow when they have no experience with them whatsoever, and are just repeating what other users have said. Thats largely because 99% of people who upgrade have go the Mitsu route. It could be argued that that is a justification in and of itself, a lemming mentality if you will, but if you actually know someone who has a T-28 they usually enjoy it and make decent power.

well you dont need a 6 bolt to run a big 16g or even a Evo 16g... it will cost the same as the T 28 if you put either one on! but it is cheaper to go with the 16g (whichever one) if you have a 6 bolt! and you will make plent more power out of the 16g for the same cost... one of my best friends had a T 28 on his 96 talon and he didnt like it at all for the money it costed him... he took it off and sold it and bought a Frankenstien "big 16g Killer" and still had enough money do buy injectors! so its all your preferance and money!

so its all your preferance and money!

Thats all I was getting at. The majority of the dsm community can't be wrong, any 16g is good, but i was just trying to point out that its an option, and that the t-28 gets no love on this forum, but wuite a few people have it on dsmtuners.com

i think thats cause most people think that why spend all that money and still not see much power compared to a different turbo.... what would you do, spend $750 and only be at say 300hp from the T28 (just a guess) or spend $750 and be at 350hp from the Big 16g (again just a guess) i see where your coming from but personally its kinda stupid to spend more money for less power, dont you?

I think 350 is about the limit, someone on dsmtuners got 348 out of theirs, it can run high 11's

high 11's :grinno: i'm pushin 350fwhp and i hit a 12.7 but i couldnt get traction in first... and look at kevin he has 400awhp and he hit a high 11 last year so i think your a little off on the numbers! and a T 28 running 11s, i bet he has more into that set up then i do into my whole car!

They are similar in flow, sure. The reason I don't mention the T28 much is because not too many people use it. I wouldn't buy one only because the evo 16g's are so cheap right now. T28's are decently capable, and the prices are around near... I just wouldn't recommend it since it's barely mentioned. Like an 18g.

high 11's :grinno: i'm pushin 350fwhp and i hit a 12.7 but i couldnt get traction in first... and look at kevin he has 400awhp and he hit a high 11 last year so i think your a little off on the numbers! and a T 28 running 11s, i bet he has more into that set up then i do into my whole car!

Thats why I'll repeat myself and say that most people open their mouth's about a t-28 even though they have no experience with one. Anyone who wants a fresh look at a t-28 should go to dsmtuners.com or any of the various vendors sites. They do put out good power, and you can get into the high 11's, which FP did. It's like Joe said, they aren't common, which is a decent enough reason not to recommend them, but the newer ones from FP or SBR stack up VERY well against any 16g you throw at them, meaning that anyone who thought you couldn't get close to 350 hp or into the 11's with one needs to rethink their position.

I think EclipseRST was only talking about the T28. The variations like the FP Big28 are very powerful, and in that case, I would agree that they are on par with much larger turbos. There is a big difference between T28 and Big28 though, and I don't think Jake knew you meant all variations. The regular price for a Big28 is 900 though, so it still may not be the most cost effective. On sale now, $725 is awesome for pushing a 99 GSX to ~11.8.

I have a 98 GST and i just bought an evoIII16G and the RRE install kit. It was very easy to install ( only took me about 4 hours), very simple. THe best part is everything only cost me $735. I was also stuck inbetween the FPbigT28 and the evo16g, you can look at my old posts if you dont beleive me, but i finally decided to go with the evo, due to dollar per HP gain.

The problem with the t28 and running 11s is this. Loren Jacobs is still the only one to ever have done it to my knowledge. Its been done on 16gs many times. Another thing to consider is the t28s dont adress the problem in the turbine housing on those turbos. The big28 may be the only one to do so, since they had to run high boost to make that time IIRC.

Cost is not an advantage with the t28. An EVO 16g is 550 shipped. If you buy the install kit that puts you at 750. If you do it yourself its a little less.

But hey, some poeple like to run underdog turbos just for the challenge. I havent run a "proven" turbo since I had the 16g on the car.

Another point I'd like to make is not to use my ETs as any type of reference point :D My car is much slower than it should be... Lets use the calc on this page to look at an example.

http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.epl

At my weight (3300) and my last pump gas run of 12.2 at 119mph. My mph is worth 434 whp. Oddly enough my last trip to the dyno was 430 whp. ;) But look at ET. Says I have only 359. The lack of traction is showing there, and what its really saying is on a good run all one would need to run 12.2 at that weight is 359 whp. Just shows how mismatched my ET and trap speed are because of the lack of traction.

If we look at my best ET run we get 397 for ET and 413 for trap speed. The gap was much better on that run, because of the 1.69 short time. But I've typically been able to make those times match, so that ET is still too slow for my car. 11.65 is a better match for that speed. Now this is all fuzzy math, but it makes sense. I shouldnt need 117 mph to run an 11.8. Also note that that 413 whp was around the same time I dynoed 400 whp, but I did that on pump.

To take this even further you could say that my car doesnt even trap where it should. I have enough parts to be running much faster. Why I'm not is really up to me. Not fixing nagging little problems like 25 psi boost limit, not tuning as aggressively as I used to, etc.

So I wouldnt use me as an example :D

i'm sorry for using your times but i was tring to prove that 348hp would be very hard to get a DSM into the 11s... just like you said with the calculator, your time of 12.2 says you have 359whp... well that 10whp more and your still .3 tenths of a second shy of 11s and .3 in a 1/4 mile is a lot when your in the 11s and 12s...

and just like i stated before, yea i ran a 12.7 and i couldnt get traction till i hit 2nd gear, next month when i run i will have slicks and be using the nitrous (75 shot) thru all 4 gears and i would be amazed if i got anything lower than a 12.4 or 12.5 for that fact that its hard to drop your times without doing something big to your car... like raise your boost or use nitrous! thats the main reason why i find it hard to believe that a 348hp car can run 11s... well unless your car weights absolutly nothing! oh and yes i was talking about the regular T28 not the Big T28 sorry!!!


oh and that site is messed up Kevin... this link works

http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm

I dont mind you using my times at all, I just wish they were more representative of what the car is capable of. :) Joe Gs car on POSracing dynoed around 350, and I ran a 12.0 at 114 in it. :D Its enough, but barely enough. I dont like to quote ET numbers based on HP and vice versa because of the variability in it. MPH is much more repeatable and accurate.

You guys keep quoting $200 for the install kit. I wouldn't want to start bending cooling lines and using super glue and duct tape on my car (just kidding about the glue and the tape). I am comfortable with a wrench (I'm not a mechanic but I can hold my own), but I don't know if I would want to start bending lines and re-using parts with 85,000k on them. So I am looking at $640 for the EVO-III and $325 for the install kit = $965 for the whole thing and 4 - 6h of labor. On the other hand I could get a FPbig T-28 for $725 (with no core involved) and only have to spend an hour or so doing the install. Which is a difference of $240 and all I am getting for that $240 is just a little more cfm's. I don't understand why that would not be a prudent investment???? Maybe I am missing something here?!?! :dunno:

Whats not a prudent investment is buying a full install kit. There is a reason we all recomend the 200 dollar version. But I have only swapped about 50 turbos, dont take my word for it. ;) I am using the same lines and gaskets my car came with, after 171,000 miles at more HP than most poeple see. I dont see where the problem is. If you saw how slight the bends to the lines are you wouldnt even be discussing it.

So I am looking at $640 for the EVO-III and $325 for the install kit = $965 for the whole thing and 4 - 6h of labor.:

Not to mention buschur has the turbo for 535, and a "full" install kit for 300. ;) I love RRE, but you need to shop around a little more. So we're up to 835.

I'm going to say something I Was hesitant to say before. I have never seen someone that was happy with thier T28. Everyone I have seen at the track performed pathetically, upgraded to 16gs, and went faster. People need to get off the maps and numbers once in a while and look at performance. Check out this link, look in the low 12 high 11 second range.

http://www.dsmtimes.org/awd.htm

If you can still justify saving a couple bucks (going with the full kit of course) after seeing that then performance is not an important criteria for you. And thats fine as well. Everyone has different goals. :)

Dont forget if you're going to be scared to reuse parts you have to order an ehxuast manifold to turbo gasket, oil drain gasket, new braided oil feed line (not prudent to use the same feed line too long), and 4 crush wshers for the coolant lines, to install that T28 ;)

But hey, the choice is yours. I just play devils advocate ;)

FP sells there Evo 16 for 599 With a basic gasket kit o2 housing oil line and j-pipe your at a grand. Is there somthing i'm figuring in that i don't need for a 2g install of that turbo?

Unless i'm wrong the 16g ends up being more exspensive than the t-28 because of the added things you need to buy. Also i heard that fp's 16 came with a 17 PSI base, i still only want to run 15 pounds for a while.

Performance is definately a criteria for me....I am just trying to maximize my HP/$ return. I see what you are saying and you would be the one to know. I guess going with the 16g would give me a much better return for my $ and just take a little more time to install. I was under the impression that installing a 16g would be a pain in the ass compared to a T-28. I also thought there was not much of a difference between the two. Thanks for the input.....I guess the 16g will be my choice (now all I have to do is finish paying for this damn wedding :banghead: and I can get one).

You can choose either turbo, I just want to be sure you are seeing the big picture before you decide, so you can make an educated buying decision. :)

The only difference between the two as far as install goes is simple easy things to do. Like swap the front and rear water line and bend slightly. The oil feed line is a snap to install. Filing the holes on teh drain line closer together is the only thing that takes a little time. So if you dont feel like doing that, you can pick up a 1g drain line. About 40 bucks new, or 10 bucks off a parts car/jukyard car.

I've upgraded turbos so many times now I cant count. 2-3 T25s, 14b, 2 16gs, tdo6/50 trim, tdo6H 20g, tdo6h/56 trim, etc. The turbo is something you only want to get once because you'll never get your money back when you sell it. I dont think the t28 at 750 is the same bang for the buck as the 16g setup at even 850. But a lot of this depends on your goals as well. In my opinion, even a 16g is too small to warrant the upgrade. If down the road you go with a 20g for example, the J and L pipes that come in the install kit are no longer needed. Etc. So there will be some waste. Its a tough call, especially on any kind of a budget. It almost easier when youre at the point I am. The difference between all the big turbos is a bit less, and the car is already well supported so thats not a factor either. I dont envy you at all in having to choose between those two turbos, or even between those and a 20g (supporting mods), etc. Have fun!