Uncontrollable spin

Hello forum.

I have a question. I have looked around the internet and can't seem to find anyone else with this issue. I've bought my 99 4runner Limited brand new and have always loved it. When driving in snow, the 4 wheel drive is capable, and if slight sliding is detected, I drop it into low 4 and couldn't make it slide if I wanted to. I've been driving since I was 12 and have never been in an accident. Then two strange things happened in the past few months. First, I drove through some moderate falling snow one evening, so I put it in normal all-wheel drive. At 35 mph, I still detected a few slips here and there, so I dropped it into the next drive setting. Still at 35 mph, I detected a bit of a slide, so I took my foot off of the gas and usually the truck auto-corrects itself with minimum steerage nessecary on my part. However, it continued a turning-right slide, so I steered the wheels a bit left being careful not to oversteer, but then it way overcompensates by spinning to the left. Then it just got worse until I entered an uncontrollable spin. Fortunately I slid into the metal gaurdrail on my rear bumper and barely did any perceptable damage. It still freaked me out why this happened. I assumed I may have hit black ice. Either way, I've driven this truck in infinitely worse conditions, and it always corrects itself beautifully. I left the snow in a few minutes at a very slow speed as the altitude decreased. Now though I live in L.A., I was raised in New Orleans and have 32 years experience driving in wet weather. Consider this with the following.

Monday night I'm driving on the freeway in Los Angeles during a minimal rain. The traffic was moving around 55 or 60. The 4 wheel was engaged, as it always is when it is raining. Suddenly the truck starts the exact same slide to the right. I feel the loss of traction and take my foot of the gas and steer a slight bit to counter it. Then the exact same chain of events take place. I begin spinning uncontrollably. Unfortunately this time there was other traffic around. The first thing that happens is the car behind me plows into my rear right quarter, totalling that car and sending me across 4 lanes of traffic at a more rapid spin. A semi narrowly missed a side impact with me. At one point during the spin, while I was facing traffic, a Honda Accord hits me almost head-on, at my front left quarter. He was able to drive away with moderate damage while the 4runner may be close to totalled. My question is has anyone heard of this happening. Or what might cause this to happen. For you flamers and trollers out there, I'm looking for what mechanical things may cause this. I've worked as a stunt driver and have precise control over any vehicle I drive. Twice my 4runner began an out-of-control spin for seemingly no reason just in the last 4 months I've owned it. It's never done this in the previous 4 years. Was it hydroplaning? Well, no other cars around me traveling the same speed were spinning or sliding. Why was the only vehicle for this to happen to was an SUV with 4 wheel drive. The adjuster told my my tires tread depth was fine. One person suggested an alignment problem could cause this, but I don't know. What I do know is if it's not totaled, I will never feel safe in this particular vehicle and certainly would feel much guilt passing it on to anyone else. I will certainly never drive it again in rain or snow. Or perhaps I should just keep the 4 wheel drive off. It's looking like most of the body will need to be replaced, along with the possibility of the frame being replace if it is bent beyond repair. Just wondering if anyone has any opinions outside of a flame attack on me. Thanks again for anyone's input.

The same thing happened to me in my 98 4runner. I was driving between 45-50mph in moderate, at times heavy rain. I put my truck in 4wd hi and I thought it would be safe. All of a sudden I hit a huge puddle in the left lane and I lost control of the car. The steering wheel felt so loose I couldn't control it. It felt like I was floating.Fortunately, my car wasn't totalled, but I hit the highway divider and suffered about $3500 worth of damage out of my pocket. Anyway, I still drive the vehicle and I feel safe, not as safe as before, but I chalk it up to a freak incident. You might of hydroplaned, but if the car has never done it before, I wouldn't rush to judgement. Trucks handle much different than cars. Being in 4wd might not have been to our advantage in that weather.

I don't think this should be considered a freak incident. I think it is the nature of a 4WD vehicle to do this at moderate or high speed under poor traction conditions. I bet this is why Toyota put a 50 mph upper limit on the use of 4WD (at least in the 3rd generation truck).

IMO, 4WD shouldn't be used unless you are having traction problems (snow, ice, sand, mud, etc) at low speed. The reason is the same as that for front-wheel drive autos, only intensified. Recovery from a momentary loss of directional control requires that your steering (front) wheels match both the direction of travel and the speed of the vehicle. Otherwise, you are simply skidding.

Once you loose traction with the front wheels (your directional control wheels) while they are under power, it is very difficult (under normal driving conditions) to regain traction. In a rear wheel-drive vehicle, of course your overall traction is poorer than with front or 4-Wheel drive. However, it is easier to regain control in rear-wheel drive when you have lost directional control. The free-spinning front wheels will naturally grab the road surface as soon as they are oriented in the direction of travel. They match the speed of the road surface through friction without restriction since they are not powered.

When the front wheels are powered, and loose directional stability, they cannot as easily match the speed of the road since the engine is turning them with moderate power and probably at a different speed than that of the vehicle.

When the road is slippery, the available friction between the road and the tires in unpowered front wheels may be adequate to cause the tires to match the speed of the road once they are pointed in the right direction, thus once again providing directional stability and control. Under the same traction conditions, it is more difficult for the powered front wheels to gain a grip on the road by matching the direction and speed of the road surface relative to the truck.

The problem can be seen with front-wheel drive vehicles. If you are going around a curve under wet conditions and give it too much gas, you will instantly understeer and hit whatever is next to you on the outside of the curve. No directional control at all. In 4WD, all the wheels let go.

If you were put into an uncontrollable spin due to 4WD, could you put the vehicle into N to get out? By putting the car in nuetral, you would be allowing the front directional tires to become unpowered and try to spin at the same speed as the relative road. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but practically, you better have skills :)

There's one small detail to be adressed here. I spent many years in the tire business as a young cat so I think I'm pretty savvy with the tire info.

WATER SIPES.......Not all tires are created equal even if you have good amounts of tread left. Typically, most All-Terrain tires and more aggressive off-road tires have little or no water sipes. Water sipes are those little slices in the tread that look like they were cut out precisely with a razor blade or something. The more little cuts (water sipes) your tires have the better wet traction you have. As the tire rolls, those water sipes open and close open and close open and close (you get the picture). By doing this the tire is constantly trying to adhere to the road. Tread design also plays a big role in it's ability to disipate water. For example, the Goodyear Aquatread, it has water channels and roosters the water away from it allowing the rubber to stay in contact with the pavement. In southeren California, Aquatread tires will never be allowed to work like they're supposed to, it doesn't rain enough. Those tires belong on cars in the Pacific Northwest where it rains almost every day. There is not one tire that is not susceptible to hydro planing or black ice, just that some tires handle these conditions better than others. I have 33" Goodyear MT/R's on my 4Runner and those tires have no water sipes, when it rains I'm all over the place. I use 4X4 all the time, it seems to give me better traction when it rains; Nevertheless, I chose those tires, they are awsome off road and I'm glad it doesn't rain every day around here otherwise I would drive my new Silverado, it's much safer.

All this is just assiming that you don't have Cadillac tires on your truck. I'm guessing you have some kind of all-terrain. Just in my opinion, it surprised the hell out of me, the Goodyear Wrangler AT/S is a very good SUV tire. I've personally seen it rip through mud, sand, dirt, rocks and also it performs close to 100% better on road including rain than my more aggressive tires

Good post. Tires are the biggest factor in wet weather. Ice and snow is another issue.

I did have Goodyear Wrangler AT/S's on my truck. I'm guessing though that they were too worn. I did the old penny test, and they were beyond fine, but I do recall that the sipes were just about gone.

There's one small detail to be adressed here. I spent many years in the tire business as a young cat so I think I'm pretty savvy with the tire info.

WATER SIPES.......Not all tires are created equal even if you have good amounts of tread left. Typically, most All-Terrain tires and more aggressive off-road tires have little or no water sipes. Water sipes are those little slices in the tread that look like they were cut out precisely with a razor blade or something. The more little cuts (water sipes) your tires have the better wet traction you have. As the tire rolls, those water sipes open and close open and close open and close (you get the picture). By doing this the tire is constantly trying to adhere to the road. Tread design also plays a big role in it's ability to disipate water. For example, the Goodyear Aquatread, it has water channels and roosters the water away from it allowing the rubber to stay in contact with the pavement. In southeren California, Aquatread tires will never be allowed to work like they're supposed to, it doesn't rain enough. Those tires belong on cars in the Pacific Northwest where it rains almost every day. There is not one tire that is not susceptible to hydro planing or black ice, just that some tires handle these conditions better than others. I have 33" Goodyear MT/R's on my 4Runner and those tires have no water sipes, when it rains I'm all over the place. I use 4X4 all the time, it seems to give me better traction when it rains; Nevertheless, I chose those tires, they are awsome off road and I'm glad it doesn't rain every day around here otherwise I would drive my new Silverado, it's much safer.

All this is just assiming that you don't have Cadillac tires on your truck. I'm guessing you have some kind of all-terrain. Just in my opinion, it surprised the hell out of me, the Goodyear Wrangler AT/S is a very good SUV tire. I've personally seen it rip through mud, sand, dirt, rocks and also it performs close to 100% better on road including rain than my more aggressive tires

I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but for what it is worth i have discovered the cause of my accident. This may be common knowledge, but I was obviously unaware of it.

The one thing I did, which the CHP and my insurance company failed to ever ask, was if I was using cruise control--which I was. I accidentally came accross this information about how the use of cruise control on wet surfaces can cause the vehicle to lose control. I was never warned about this and there is only a small note about "not maintaining best control when using cruise control" on wet surfaces buried deep in the owners manual. Long story short, even though the first vehicle in the accident hit me from behind, I was found fully at fault because of an "illegal lane change." I'm guessing this came about since the CHP could not figure out any other reason that a 4Runner with four wheel drive engaged would go out of control.

Anyway, get the word out to those who don't know--NEVER USE CRUISE CONTROL ON ANYTHING BUT DRY PAVEMENT!!!