supercharged/turbocharged AT THE SAME TIME?

Yeah i was wondering if it was possible to do a super-turbo conversion on an integra.. i've heard of it done on some mazda's and toyota's before, but i'm not too sure about integra's... any thoughts?

Anything is possible, the only problem would be having the room.

Anything is possible, the only problem would be having the room.

Along with time and money.

I hope you have a lot of each.

I'm pretty sure that Sport Compact Car turbo'd and supercharged a Civic, but I don't have it so I can't really tell you anything about it. But I'm pretty sure it can be done. Just tell me how after you're finished :smile:

haha, well i'm thinking about burning up around 12 grand on the car over about a year... any suggestions? i was definitely thinking of doing an engine swap but i wasn't too sure which one yet (was looking at b18c jdm type r but that's really freakin expensive) and a turbo (love that bov sound)

What would be the point of running both a supercharger and a turbo? If you're trying to build more low end with the supercharger and use the turbo for top end, I wouldnt bother with the turbo at all. Just run a supercharger. If I had 12k at my disposal I'd buy an Aerodyne VATN turbo or just supercharge it with a very good supercharger. A VATN would be ideal, but they're expensive($3k). They'll spool up plenty fast and are much more efficient than any other turbo. I believe superchargers are better for small engines, they just don't have the exhaust volume to drive a turbine as well as a big engine. V8s can produce tons of torque and HP below 6000rpm and spool turbos by 2000rpm, where a 4cyl would have to rev much higher to produce big numbers, requiring a bigger turbo and therefore more lag.
I'm willing to hear any crazy ideas with turbos and superchargers, I love figuring things out like that. What setup exactly would you plan to do with a super and a turbo?

well first of all, i wasn't lookin at droppin 12 k into just a turbo/super, i'm talkin like new engine and suspension; exhaust here.. but what i was thinking, is that having some way for the supercharger to kick in right away for the good low end torque, then having the bigger turbo (t04 possibly, most likely ball bearing) be spooled by around 4k rpm. i've got a bit of technical knowledge, but not much experience working on cars as i am only 18 and don't really know anyone that likes to work on cars.

Anyway, i'm currently not aware of any way to vary the operation of the supercharger, maybe just have it running full time or something:confused: and i'm still not sure what type of engine would work best with boost for the most reasonable price.

thx fer your help

heres an idea that i came up with a long time ago when i was thinking about how to make sucha setup:

http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/punkalexspics/twincharger.jpg

even though i didnt draw a bypass valve for the turbo intake manifold part, theres one there. Basically after custom fabbing the spit intake, some form of bypass vavles, and some crazy wiring with rpm switches, youd come up with this. The priniple behind this setup is that you the supercharger would run through the low rpm's (Assuming that this engine is running a lot of boost on a big ass turbo with lotsa lag...with the kind of money it would take id think the engine would be built) at the highest boostpully you can get (like 10 or 11 psi) and help spool the big turbo for the crazy high rpm power. And then there are the problems wiht the parasitic drag of the super (some crazy complex centrifical clutch pulley could solve that problem). But yeah, my cargeek side showing!

looks pretty crazy man... can u get those rpm sensors or whatever? and is there even a clutch system like that out there? sounds pretty far-fetched from what i see, but hey.. you never know

btw.. j00r msp41nt sk33lz r 1337 :p

Theoretically speaking you probably could do it.You'd more than likely have to do some serious sleeving of the block. If you could get a stable setup, one that would be reliable, it would be awesome

Delerious:

I like that sig. It made my sister get all riled up, because she owns a 2nd gen cavalier. :D

hahaha right on man... yeah.. what exactly is sleeving the block anyway.. i never did figure out what that term meant :confused:

sleving-honda engines have an open deck design, which means the cylinderwalls are unsupported at the top, which makes for a weak capability to boost and stuff. The stock cylinder wals tend to crack with stresses because they are aluminum as well. When you "sleeve" a honda, you are essentially putting new cylinder walls in the block, and since they are ductile iron, they can take crazy boost and eliminate the cylinder vibration due to an open deck design.

And yeah you can buy rpm activated switches out of summit. They are universal and (i believe-correct me if im wrong) just create a current of electricity through whatever line is connected to activate a device (nitrous, cheapo-vtec controller, whatever).

As for the clutch idea, well ive never really seen one or anything...youd probably just have to deal with the powerloss by the super.

wouldn't that decrease your displacement?

A couple of things... As I feared, you were plannin an overdriven supercharger for the low end - you will NEED some kind of clutch to separate the supercharger from the engine. Superchargers, like engines or turbos, have maximum safe revs! Spin a supercharger too fast and it will self destruct, sending tons of nice bite size chunks of metal into your engine, then eventually into your turbos. obviously, not good. I played around with this idea myself for a very long time for my 351c, but I have decided against it. Looking into electric clutches, which seem to be the only cost effective way of separating the engine and supercharger, I didn't think they'd do the job. Sure you could rig one up to disengage at a certain rpm(I'd just take apart a $5 shift light off ebay), but that isnt the problem - re-engaging is. If it disengages at 3000rpm, and is overdriven so that is near its maximum speed, engaging a clutch that will instantly try to get it to that speed would either result in a burnt clutch or destroyed supercharger and a fragged engine. Recently, I have come up with a much better idea, although a bit costly. This is a little MSPaint layout of how it'd work:
http://www.turboslut.net/twinseqturbodrawing.jpg
A little explaination:
The black pipe coming in from the bottom left is from your exhaust manifold. it splits in two(i hope you do a better job of splitting it than a 90* angle like in that image!) One goes right to a very small turbo(upper green and red thing), one that will spool very quickly(like 1500rpm)... That turbo will run out of juice around 4500 maybe. The other turbo in the bottom right is a very big turbo, one that will spool at maybe 4000. This one's inlet is fed by the other turbo's outlet. I forgot to put one thing in the image, which is a big ol one way valve on the pipe connecting the big turbo's inlet and little turbo's outlet, since the big turbo will probably want more air than it can suck through the little one. The two blue things are BIG wastegates. Now there are two ways I thought of doing this - hook the wastegate's signal to the intake manifold, and set them for whatever max boost you want or the max boost of the little turbo at 4000rpm. It'd work best if the little turbo isnt working as hard as it can, since it can probably produce the most boost before its 4000rpm high end. The wastegates will slowly open more and more as RPMs climb, giving the big turbo more and more exhaust, and if all the turbos are sized just right, eventually the wastegates will be entirely open at 4000rpm, giving the big turbo all the exhaust it needs. It is important to have some overlap in the RPM ranges of both turbos so the transition will be smoother. If the big turbo spools at 4000rpm will probably run out around 7500+, which when combined with the little turbo would produce boost from 1500-7500. Pretty damn big power range if you ask me. Anyone understand all that? The other way I thought of activating the wastegates was with a solenoid valve and an RPM switch. At 4000rpm, the rpm switch activates the solenoid valve which is on the line between the intake manifold and wastegates, immediately opening them fully and essentially quickly switching between the two turbos. The problem with this is it might cause some surging... A very short drop in power while the big turbo spools(if sized correctly it should be a fraction of a second) then a big surge in power since the big turbo is going to be working more efficiently than the little turbo nearing its limit. If you're planning on squeezing every last bit of boost out of the little turbo, I'd go with this setup, since it gives the little turbo all the exhaust it needs right up until it switches over to the big turbo, and if the turbos are sized correctly the whole lag/surge event could probably be minimalized or eliminated. If it were me, I'd rig up as many rpm switches as I had wastegates, setting them for progressively higher rpms, so it wouldnt starve the little turbo of exhaust during the switch, but still give the big turbo some exhaust to get it started. Sort of ease the transition.

About sleeving -
When a machine shop sleeves a block, they basically bore the block more than the thickness of the cylinder walls, essentially removing the entire bore. they then heat up the iron sleeves and pound them into the holes at the top and bottom where the old bore used to be, and when they cool they'll bind up good and tight with the block so they dont move. Sleeves are thicker than stock cylinder walls, and are stock bore, so usually when you sleeve a block you can get a bigger displacement if so desired. Sleeves aren't just slipped inside the bore, the old bore is cut out and significantly enlarged to allow a thick sleeve in the stock bore to be put in its place. Its not cheap, I think its around $100 per sleeve. Lucky for you guys you run 4cyls... twice as much for me! Hell, its only $500 more for me to just buy an aluminum Fontana racing block that I can bore .185" over! If I'm ever in the market for a big $ race engine, unless I'm bound by rules to run a factory block, I'd definately go for the aftermarket race block. But its more feasable for a 4cyl.

wow, that's quite the theory you've got there... sounds pretty freakin impressive... what i was thinking of doing is keeping my stock engine/tranny etc.. for the time being just doing exhaust and maybe a cai, then buying an engine swap package.. say a 95 gsr setting that up in my house shop type thing then doing all my modifications on it eg. turbo.. redoing all the internals, maybe have it sent out to be sleeved. i'm planning on running around 15 psi on this bad boy.. if i can find parts to handle that kind of boost. that vatn turbo sounds like a good idea, but any idea what kind of hp they can produce... i'm hoping to hit around 300 hp under the 15 psi.. is that reasonable? like i said, im open to all theories and such... that twin turbo type application sounds really interesting.. i'll definitely contimplate that one!

oh, and concerning sleeving.. wouldn't heating up the sleeve cause it to expand, then when it is pounded in and cooled, it would contract, and therefore make it smaller and perhaps fall out of the cylinder? shouldn't it be that you heat up the block, make it expand, pound in the sleeve.. and when the block cools it contracts, squeezing in the sleeve?
just a thought

About sleeving, I've wondered that myself... but I know for a fact that is how they install press fit wrist pins in pistons- heat up the pin and whack it until it goes in, when it cools it wont move. VATNs will make more power over a broader range than a conventional turbo. They are more efficient and spool much faster.

All you need to know about it is said in the post above. Let me ask this though, is the little gain you get from running this setup really worth it? I mean, you can only get so efficient of a turbo on a street engine before you start running out of accuall airflow the motor can support with out either blowing the bottom end out or just pre-deationating the piss out of the motor. I run 27 PSI on 118 torco fuel and my uncle has a Turbo Trans Am and he run 30. my car has very mild lag and my uncles car is just a little lazy. The top end of the two cars though is sooo worth the lag. I guess what I am trying to say is that by the time you spend all the money and effort into doing it. a plain turbo/supercharged car will be so far ahead of you it is not even funny. Just my thoughts about it.

yeah, a normal turbo/super car with the engine all built will probably be better, and most of those designs probably wouldnt work because one of the chargers would be blowing air out of the other charger instead of into the engine, even if their were a bypas valve is would restrict the airflow so badly that it would probably negate the positive effects of the system. what you could do is get a centrifugal or roots type supercharger that has max boost at say 4k and then have a bigger turbo before it in the airflow so that you will get a decent amount of boost at low rpm and then when the turbo comes up to speed it will actually be pushing air through the supercharger, thus putting power back into the pully ( eliminating parasitic drag ) and also preventing the supercharger from stalling ( they do that when they spin to fast ).

First off, how much hp do you plan on making, if we are talking like 300whp, you can have virtually no lag at all with a turbo. If you go with a ball bearing turbo, there is no lag. Going with a supercharger isn't that good of an idea for most. They are parasitic as most have said and if you ever wanna run a higher boost, you gotta change pulleys, where as a turbo, you just need to turn a screw or push a button.

As far as sleeving, my sleeves cost 1,025.00 for the sleeve and install. They are from Golden Eagle and are guarenteed up to 60psi. There are many companies out there to go with, Darton, AEBS, Crower, just do a little research online. If you are looking into getting a b series block and wanna race with it, go get a Dart or JG Engine Dynamics block, don't buy a stock block. Their blocks are built to race and can actually save you some money in the long run.

12k isn't really that much money. My Engine was 1,600. My engine alone is already up at 6,500 just for parts, machining and assembly. Then to piece together a turbo system, it's gonna be another 3,000-4,000. Then axles, which for me are a grand. Also the tranny, which I don't know how much that's gonna run yet, plus roll cage, and all the little crap ya have to get along the way. I'm only shooting for 500+whp.

A few things... If you notice in my design, the small turbo blows into the inlet of the bigger turbo. This way no turbo will be blowing against another turbine.

As I said before, if you spin a compressor too fast it will self destruct!! I dont see how a supercharger could 'stall' at high speed unless the engine stalls as well or the belt slips or something else breaks. If the supercharger hits its maximum range at 4000rpm and you spin it to 7000, I guarentee you that supercharger will not last very long at all, and when it does go your engine will too. Shrapnel is not your engine's friend.

About the VATN :
In order to avoid getting into the specific engineering of the VATN, I'll just summarize what it does. It varies the A/R of the exhaust turbine, so it can spool very fast at low RPM and provide the least ammount of exhaust restriction possible. When it gets near its maximum efficiency, it is very possible to have intake pressures higher than exhaust manifold pressures, eliminating any chance of exhaust reversion. It has a wider powerband and produces more power for a given pressure than any other turbo. If it is worth the money for you, I dont know. If I had the money, I'd be running one.

Check out this Turbo Type-R under customer cars @ redeyefabrication.com

who makes a VATN?

oh by the way, this is to be a street driven car... call me crazy, but i just want to be able to destroy ricers so bad they go back crying to their precious f&f movies. but yeah, i'm pretty sure i'll stick with a stock block because when i buy the new engine i want all the other things that come with it.. tranny, ecu, all that good stuff. unless i can find a complete swap that works with the JG or Dart block.

duplox: where might i find a supplier in canada (west coast) for this type of turbo?

who makes a VATN?

Garrett is the only one I know of. It is not a popular type of turbo for cars. A lot of diesel engines use VNT turbos though.

Duplox, you forgot to explain how they work. Instead of using one nozzle to accelerate the exhaust gas towards the turbine wheel, it has a ring of 12 variable vanes. As the vanes are rotated, they change the area of the nozzles that the exhaust must pass through. The smaller the nozzle, the faster the gas velocity, the more turbine power, the more boost. At the other extreme the vanes can open fully when boost is not needed, with the resulting reduction in exhaust restriction. The concept of the VNT has been around for a while, the trick was to make one where the vanes would not stick when run for thousands of miles without lubrication in a hot exhaust environment. Garrett spent considerable time in r&d to arrive at the special combination of high temp materials and manufacturing processes for the vanes and mechanism to ensure reliable operation.

The only company I'd buy a VATN turbo from is Aerodyne. Their design is the best turbo I've ever seen. I didnt want to explain exactly how they worked: "In order to avoid getting into the specific engineering of the VATN, I'll just summarize what it does." I just explained in essense what it does.

After all, I think I've written enough rediculously long posts in the past few days.. I don't have THAT much free time.

haha duplox, they may be long but they are all very much appreciated!

oh and as for that type r site piecedtogether, that's the sweetest thing i've ever heard come out of a honda! *drools*

The only company I'd buy a VATN turbo from is Aerodyne. Their design is the best turbo I've ever seen. I didnt want to explain exactly how they worked: "In order to avoid getting into the specific engineering of the VATN, I'll just summarize what it does." I just explained in essense what it does.

After all, I think I've written enough rediculously long posts in the past few days.. I don't have THAT much free time.

Hehehe.

I completely forgot about Aerodyne, and they are very good. So, let me rephrase, I only know of Garrett and Aerodyne.

Also, I have a VNT on my current project car, and I am getting rid of it for a GT series Garrett turbo. You can get the benefits of a VNT with a normal turbo.

i can't seem to find the aerodyne site... anyone care to post a link?

ok, cool... thx

if I'm not mistaken I believe Meguiars did a supercharger/turbocharger setup on a type r teg... certainly not streetable and only had it on a dyno not sure of the hp it put out...

yeah i think i'm just gunna keep it simple and go with that turbo that duplox was talking about... although... how much boost are thoser turbo's good up to? i read somewhere it's 8-9 psi.. and i was hoping for around 15 psi... ???

I have never heard of VATNs not being able to handle high boost... if anything I'd think they'd be able to produce more since their exhaust turbine is so much more efficient, but max boost depends more on the compressor design. I doubt Aerodyne would be poor at engineering a compressor with the phenominal work they've done on the exhaust turbine. Another advantage of Aerodyne's design is they placed the bearing for the compressor wheel in front of the wheel, basically in the compressor intake... Making it much more stable and able to handle higher RPMs, so they are probably able to produce more boost than a comparable normal design turbo. I don't think anyone would spend $3k on a turbo that can only put out 8psi, no matter when it spooled.

yeah, amen to that... so you're not too sure what boost they can produce? no biggie if you're not, i'll just e-mail the guys if they have an addy.. i'm sure they do

your idea with the turbos is kinda already what twin-turbo setups do to eliminate turbo lag......instead of going thru all that you could just swap in a tt-engine and beef up the internals, fuel system and of course a bigger exhaust to give the turbos more room to breathe....your idea might be slightly different but they have the same effect

all a normal TT setup does to eliminate lag is slightly lower the rotating mass of the turbos. they may spool a few hundred RPM lower than normal.. my design is supposed to allow boost thousands of RPM before, like instead of 4000-7500 you get 1500-7500. BIG difference.

true true but would be easier to build up and modify an existing tt setup?

no doubt it would be easier to build a normal TT setup... I never said it would be easy or cheap. it'd require at least two big external wastegates(you might be able to find one huge one that'll work) which aren't cheap, and you have to be very good at metal fabrication and welding to make the exhaust manifold. You also have to find a big one way valve that will flow enough air to supply the big turbo at max rpm and be able to seal well with whatever pressure you're running. Someday I'll build this just to see if it will work, maybe summer of '05.

yeah let me know how that goes man... i might have to take a trip down there and get some hands on advice:biggrin:

yeah man that would be like a second job fabricating all that but if it worked the would be one sweet setup.......if you ever get to work let me know how it goes.......and since we're talking about superchargers and what not does anyon know where i can get one for a 96 sohc accord vtec?

nothing from jackson racing?

no, all i could find was a sc for civics....

i see.. my bad

do you know any other sc companies jackson is the only reputable one that i know of

i say u can as long as u lower the compression on the pistons. integra/ civic motors have a high compression. and a little work on the head and block.................( see the meguiers integra type-r)

do you know any other sc companies jackson is the only reputable one that i know of

don't go with jackson.... look into vortech, much better the JR.

doesnt it make sense to get a turbo that spools up fast at a low rpm build up the internals and then use a good size shot of nos for the peak hp sounds much easier to do then run a supercharger and turbo at the same time kinda defeats the point if i as me or i might just be nuts im not quite sure. superchargers take a while longer to build boost from what i understand so id go big garrett turbo and like at least 60 shot of NOS :evillol:

doesnt it make sense to get a turbo that spools up fast at a low rpm build up the internals and then use a good size shot of nos for the peak hp sounds much easier to do then run a supercharger and turbo at the same time kinda defeats the point if i as me or i might just be nuts im not quite sure. superchargers take a while longer to build boost from what i understand so id go big garrett turbo and like at least 60 shot of NOS :evillol:

That is one way of doing it, but if you want more power, what do you do then, you gotta go get different jets or a whole new nitrous kit. The smart thing to do is get a turbo that best performs for what you want to do and is the right fit for your car at what levels you wanna run. Then if you ever wanna kick up the hp, turn up the boost a little. Much cheaper than trying to add more nitrous.

you got it backwards... You want to put on a turbo that is a bit too big, and hit the NOS right when you launch. The NOS will raise the EGT and cause the turbos to spool almost instantly. Some racers will hit a small shot of NOS while still at the lights when stalling against the convertor to spool the turbos for a quick launch/60ft time. NOS is VERY sensitive to exhaust backpressure, I can't imagine anything good coming out of an engine at high RPM fighting a small turbine/high backpressure, then hitting NOS. Most likely, either you melt a hole in the piston from excessive heat or the turbo over-revs since even with the wastegate full open it cant get rid of the extra exhaust fast enough, and turns your turbo into a useless chunk of iron, or better yet, snaps the driveshaft so the compressor wheel starts bouncin off the housing and throwing shrapnel into your engine. I would never ever ever use NOS when high backpressure is present.

Also, NOS costs money every time you use it. A supercharger/turbocharger or a sequential turbo system like mine will offer quick spool and a wide powerband without needing refills.

so basically running a turbo and supercharger would be the ultimate as long as u have the money and room to do it? what am i missing here i know alot bout domestics but not too much about big hp out of a small import motor. i know some nissans and 3000gts had twin turbo but to me thats just more to go wrong id stick with one big turbo that spools fast. I guess my point is Whats the point of running botha turbo and supercharger? run one the other. :uhoh:

the point of running both a supercharger and a turbocharger would be to get the almost instant boost from the supercharger, then once it reached around a cirtain rpm *say 4500* your rediculously oversized turbocharger is spooled, making no gap in boost time. the hardest thing to do would be to somehow either bypass or effectively shut down the supercharger so that it did not over-rev and blow to pieces.. it's been done before, it's just not all that easy