sr20de+T or sr20det, that is the question

i'm planning on going turbo next year. future plans are 300hp street w/ maybe the possibility of 450+ track. which way should i go and what will be needed to be done. i've also been estimated at $1500 for a new usdm sr20de and tranny, before shipping. should i do that a get a fabricated turbo, or drop a DET and upgrade that? what's better or more cost efficient. $$ is limited, but this is going to be a long project as well.

If you are replacing your current SR20DE I would go w/ the DET. The price difference is not much. To build a car that strong you'll need to add some of the DET "features" to your new DE. It may end up costing more than the DET would've.

If you have a good condition DE right now you'd save more money buy building it up w/ the DET goodies.


Granted you CAN see 400 HP on stock internals, I wouldnt do it. I've been looking into the costs of something w/ that much power (actually 350whp) and here is what i've come up w/ as estimates for a 350whp motor...


Bottom end work: $2,500 (lower compression rate, new pistons, rods, metal headgasket, bolts, bearing, coatings, balance, honing, polishing)

Turbo: $800 or so (based on T3/T04E stage III)

Manifold: $500 (Fmax)

Intercooler: $450 to $1200 depending on brand.

Electronics: $1200 (turbo timer, boost controller, boost guage, oil pressure guage, JWT ecu)


Thats $5,500 so far. You still need:

-Install
-Plumbing
-72lb injectors
-Cobra MAF
-down pipe
-wastegate
-blow off valve
-other misc costs...

For my 350 WHP figure I'd estimate a budget of $8000 minimum. Again it depends largely on whether you build your bottom end and whether you pick up used pieces, etc... For a 450 WHP car you will have to go with a larger turbo, and possibly BB center to keep the lag down... (ie.. more $$$)

Definately the DET.

Then you get nice goodies like sodium filled valves, oil squirters, etc.

alrite, DET comes with more "goodies". but figuring that i want to run excessive boost, i wanted something new or really reliable. DET new, i don't think so. $$$. i want to have some boost be the end of next year. even 6psi would be ok. then working it up from there would be sufficient.
ok this might be dumb, but what about a whole rebuild on my DE now? you gotta figure in that it's at 154k miles. how reliable is a rebuild? i was thinking if i did that i could upgrade the internals as well. i've been trying to read up at se-r.net, but it's sooo freakin complicated (and possibly outdated?).
figure i do decide to go with a DET, where and how much $$ ?
one more possibility, could i run 300whp without bottom end work on either the DE or DET?
TIA

Originally posted by u4ikstilz
i'm planning on going turbo next year. future plans are 300hp street w/ maybe the possibility of 450+ track. which way should i go and what will be needed to be done.

Money.

Lots and lots of money.

Double whatever you are thinking. :D

Originally posted by b-b00gie
If you are replacing your current SR20DE I would go w/ the DET. The price difference is not much. To build a car that strong you'll need to add some of the DET "features" to your new DE. It may end up costing more than the DET would've.

I'm going to disagree with you. If you are actually building a bottom end, you may as well start with a DE. You can buy the low compression pistons for cheap. If you want forged pistons DEFINITELY start with a DE. JWT can drill and tap for the piston coolers. Other than those two things, the only other thing you really get with the DET worth mentioning is the sodium filled valves. Get your DE valves coated by Swain Tech and you will be just as well off I think.

Once you go for more than 250 bhp, you have to replace so many things that IMHO the DET gets you nowhere.

Originally posted by u4ikstilz
how reliable is a rebuild?

Done right, it's better than new.

Originally posted by u4ikstilz
i was thinking if i did that i could upgrade the internals as well. i've been trying to read up at se-r.net, but it's sooo freakin complicated (and possibly outdated?).

If you're interested in info on rebuilding, try my Beast articles.

http://home.earthlink.net/~geo3/beast-toc.htm

Originally posted by u4ikstilz
figure i do decide to go with a DET, where and how much $$ ?

Either way, figure about $6-8k

Originally posted by u4ikstilz
one more possibility, could i run 300whp without bottom end work on either the DE or DET?
TIA

No question. Folks have put down over 400 whp with C16 race gas.

Interesting.

My kneejerk reaction was to disagree with you, Geo. Then I re-read his original message, and then your messages again, and it made sense.

I wasn't accounting for the hp gains he was looking for, and I realized I was just looking at what I want for MY car, and what I've been researching.

If you're looking for a 230-250 hp turbo engine like I'm considering, to replace an aging stock engine, then a DET is definately a cheaper option than rebuilding the DE.
However, a major hp increase like that, ok, I see where it's coming from now.

Soooo, sound advice! :)

Originally posted by spnx
If you're looking for a 230-250 hp turbo engine like I'm considering, to replace an aging stock engine, then a DET is definately a cheaper option than rebuilding the DE. However, a major hp increase like that, ok, I see where it's coming from now.

Soooo, sound advice! :)

Thanks. :-)

I agree with your assessment. The DET is great as a newer replacement for an older engine if you aren't searching for hp beyond what the parts the DET comes with can handle. When you have to replace injectors, turbo, manifold, MAF, etc., the DET isn't the savings one might think on the surface.

Originally posted by P10DET


I'm going to disagree with you. If you are actually building a bottom end, you may as well start with a DE. You can buy the low compression pistons for cheap. If you want forged pistons DEFINITELY start with a DE. JWT can drill and tap for the piston coolers. Other than those two things, the only other thing you really get with the DET worth mentioning is the sodium filled valves. Get your DE valves coated by Swain Tech and you will be just as well off I think.

Once you go for more than 250 bhp, you have to replace so many things that IMHO the DET gets you nowhere.


I guess I didnt really get my thoughts out correctly cause I feel the same way. Which is why I dont think I'll purchase a DET. I'd need to (or want to) build the bottom end, and purchasing the DET is just an added cost that I could skip by just modifying my DE.


If only I'd get laid off from work! Heh... Merrill Lynch pays you 4 months salary + 3 weeks vacation + bonus if they let you go. I can easily get a job w/ a friend and I'd have more than double the money I need for my turbo goals! ...I could even afford the FMAX tubular manifold then!!! $1500 :eek:


Kinda hard right now when you're trying to save money for a house and ahem... an engagement ring! :D

Originally posted by b-b00gie
Kinda hard right now when you're trying to save money for a house and ahem... an engagement ring! :D

Whoa Boogie! Skip the car shit. It's just a money pit anyway. :D

A wife and house are *far* more important. Of course, it helps if your wife understands your passions. Kerry is an angel! :D She seldom complains about my car crap, although I promised to get some things done to the house before seriously working on my race car. :p

I'm not putting off the saving so I can turbo my car. I'm just trying to scrape up some money here and there to do the turbo. I still have a few years... but the ring will probably be with in 2. I'm only 23 :D

Luckily she's supportive of the car shit too.

Originally posted by b-b00gie
I'm not putting off the saving so I can turbo my car. I'm just trying to scrape up some money here and there to do the turbo. I still have a few years... but the ring will probably be with in 2. I'm only 23 :D

Luckily she's supportive of the car shit too.

23? Shit, you've got plenty O' time. Turbo that puppy. :D

Luckily she's supportive of the car shit too.

Sounds like a keeper!:)

thanks george. but say if i couldn't afford to do the full on rebuild right now, should i get a DE put it on low boost until i do the rebuild, OR get a DET and work from there?
like how much boost can the DE or DET run reliably on stock internals and 93/94 octane?
thanks guys.

HEY SPNX
have you got S4 cams in your SR20DE?!?!?!??!?!
do you have any dynoed figures?
if you could tell me anything about them it would be greatly appreciated

I do, and I do.

The dyno figures are very misleading though. I have an ancient first generation Stillen header, which is much more restrictive than later designs (and especially Hotshot headers).

My torque is down at least 10 ft lbs, compared to other cars. Hp is almost where it should be.

Peak numbers (I don't have the chart scanned) are 142.8 hp, 119 torque.

It's very interesting to see how the power curve just flattens out and goes straight, right up to 7500. It used to drop from about 6500 on up, now the power just keeps coming.

However, I would like more torque!

Not until the Canadian dollar picks up though :-P

hm...119 for torque is kinda low..
but 142.8hp at the wheels isn't too bad...
i guess that figure happens at 7krpm +?

how much did you pay for these cams?
and what does engine feel like with these cams?
significantly faster?
hm..less torque...

Originally posted by pche059
hm...119 for torque is kinda low..

That's almost certainly due to the first gen Stealin header. Incidentally, my old Stealin header. :D

The newer HotShot headers should give a better figure.

I TOTALLY agree. That's what I figured too.

However, the price was right! Thanks, George ;)

Still holding up well, just a few rustspots :)

I'll see if I can get my dyno charts scanned.

Brian,

You are a funny puppy! :) 23? Woow....but congrats on the O-ring :)

George,

The link to the article, is this the article you submit to SCC?

so by the sound of it, with the brand new DE engine I have, i should TURBO it instead of getting a DET and build up on it? I am looking at least 250 hp at the wheel. Will this be achievable with a DE TURBO?

and the other question, who would do most of the mods?

Originally posted by v_knot
so by the sound of it, with the brand new DE engine I have, i should TURBO it instead of getting a DET and build up on it? I am looking at least 250 hp at the wheel. Will this be achievable with a DE TURBO?


Without breaking a sweat if you pick the right parts. Actually, if you go over 250 crank hp, you may as well go for about 300 whp since you will basically need the same stuff and spend the same amount as getting 250 whp.

Originally posted by v_knot
The link to the article, is this the article you submit to SCC?

No. It's a series of web articles I wrote on building the killer NA engine I built (same as Mike Kojima's Project SE-R engine). They are on my personal site.

Did you do the block extension (I think that's what it was) also? That sounds cool.

Originally posted by nis.k.a.
Did you do the block extension (I think that's what it was) also? That sounds cool.

Block extension? I don't understand.

Didn't he have a piece of aluminum bolted to the block (because of distortion) and bored to match and then welded. I don't remember if it was for compression or what. It was in SCC a long time ago.

Originally posted by nis.k.a.
Didn't he have a piece of aluminum bolted to the block (because of distortion) and bored to match and then welded. I don't remember if it was for compression or what. It was in SCC a long time ago.

OK, what you're thinking of (I think) is a torque plate. It is a fixture that is bolted to the block using the head bolts, torqued to spec, but with holes where the cylinders are. This is used to ensure than then the head is bolted to the block, the bores remain round.

If you bore and hone the block w/o a torque plate, the bores will be round w/o the head in place, but will be out of round when the head is bolted in place.

Yes, mine was bored and honed using the torque plate.

guys, with the SR20DET produce significant higher HP on the engine, how do you account for gear-ratio and brake disc? Do you play with this at all to match with whatever the power you get out of a turbo? Cuz for the brake, higher hp needs bigger disc brake and with high bigger disc brake that means there is not enough tolerant between brakes and rims/wheels. Do you have to look into this when you're going TURBO?

As well, with a more powerful engine that can produce 250 whp compare to 145 hp, how do you deal with gear ratio?

can someone answer my question please......it might be a stupid one..but still no question is a stupid question....

Luke? George? anyone?

Originally posted by v_knot
guys, with the SR20DET produce significant higher HP on the engine, how do you account for gear-ratio and brake disc? Do you play with this at all to match with whatever the power you get out of a turbo? Cuz for the brake, higher hp needs bigger disc brake and with high bigger disc brake that means there is not enough tolerant between brakes and rims/wheels. Do you have to look into this when you're going TURBO?

As well, with a more powerful engine that can produce 250 whp compare to 145 hp, how do you deal with gear ratio?

I didn't change either and I'm pretty sure no one else here with a turbo did.

Originally posted by P10DET


I didn't change either and I'm pretty sure no one else here with a turbo did.

Would that not run into the risk of brake burn out? At that much hp, can the thin brake disc sustain the power? Have you test your car at max speed with full brake?