mr2 vs celica gt4

Ok.. My buddy has a celica gt4 all-trac 200hp turbocharged car and he hasn't said anything about racing but the other guys around town are kinda hinting to me that he's talking shit about my car and he can beat it. SO... I wanna know what you guys think?

His mods :
boost controller (set to 14psi)
thick head gasket
turbo timer
fan on top of his intercooler
exhaust tip

My car :
95 mr2 with JDM 3sgter (gen 2) motor swap
stock everything except the motor obviously


He claims 300hp. I don't think so but it's cool.. What do you guys think roughly? I know it has a lot to do with driver but CAR for CAR which is faster? Thanks

i would say that the alltrac would win car to car... if he really had a boost controller and all that... its faster off the line with the awd... also the the 2nd gen 3sgte engine wont give you taht much power... a big part of the power increase is the ecu... even though the celica is heavier i would have to say that it would win..

His mods :
boost controller (set to 14psi)
thick head gasket
turbo timer
fan on top of his intercooler
exhaust tip

He claims 300hp. I don't think so but it's cool.. What do you guys think roughly? I know it has a lot to do with driver but CAR for CAR which is faster? Thanks

300HP? no way in hell.
the ONLY mod on that list that i can see that will help him make more power is the boost controller. in fact, the thick head gasket would lose him a slight amount of power because it would lower the CR slightly. that will help him be able to run more boost before detonation, but you said he's only at 14psi. not a chance in HELL is a CT26 making 300HP at 14psi. tell him his butt dyno needs to be recalibrated :D

incidentally, your engine should be able to handle 14psi as well assuming your fuel/ignition systems are in good working order. what boost are you running right now? you DO have a boost gauge, right? if not, get one.

AWD won't help him that much against a mid engined RWD car. i've seen MR's pull better 60' times than AWD cars. reason is, once you launch at a certain level, the front wheels are barely on the ground anyway, so driving them isn't helping you any. he'll also be losing 2-5% more power through his drivetrain, being AWD. aren't the all trac's heavier too?

i think you could smoke him if you're a decent driver. just use your brain and don't do it on the street.

300HP? no way in hell.
the ONLY mod on that list that i can see that will help him make more power is the boost controller. in fact, the thick head gasket would lose him a slight amount of power because it would lower the CR slightly. that will help him be able to run more boost before detonation, but you said he's only at 14psi. not a chance in HELL is a CT26 making 300HP at 14psi. tell him his butt dyno needs to be recalibrated :D

incidentally, your engine should be able to handle 14psi as well assuming your fuel/ignition systems are in good working order. what boost are you running right now? you DO have a boost gauge, right? if not, get one.

AWD won't help him that much against a mid engined RWD car. i've seen MR's pull better 60' times than AWD cars. reason is, once you launch at a certain level, the front wheels are barely on the ground anyway, so driving them isn't helping you any. he'll also be losing 2-5% more power through his drivetrain, being AWD. aren't the all trac's heavier too?

i think you could smoke him if you're a decent driver. just use your brain and don't do it on the street.


He claims 300hp. He's never been on a dyno. His car weighs 3227 but he has a decent size stereo and a monitor etc. I weighed my car on a pit scale and it weighs exactly 2800lbs. So I do have a slight weight advantage. I don't have a boost gauge like I said the car is stock with nothing but a jdm 3sgte motor swap, but that is one of my first mods I will be getting obviously.

My first set of mods will include:

BLITZ NUR SPEC EXHAUST
Blitz down pipe
Head ported/polished, decked, magnaflexed and checked for cracks
Valve job, ported intake manifold
Top end gasket set
HKS head gasket 1.6mm stopper
arp head studs
Autometer ultra-lite gauges (afm, water temp, oil pressure, and boost)
two 7.5in spal push fan (trunk lid)
7.5in spal pull fan (intercooler)
Apex power intake
B&M shift kit
NGK BKR7E plugs
Greddy profec b spec 2 boost controller
greddy turbo timer
Apexi Super VAFC II

He claims 300hp. He's never been on a dyno. His car weighs 3227 but he has a decent size stereo and a monitor etc. I weighed my car on a pit scale and it weighs exactly 2800lbs. So I do have a slight weight advantage. I don't have a boost gauge like I said the car is stock with nothing but a jdm 3sgte motor swap, but that is one of my first mods I will be getting obviously.


yeah, like i said, no way in hell he has 300HP. the stock CT26 isn't even capable of 300HP. mid to high 200's is where it chokes off. even the CT20B's need a LOT of massaging to get to 300HP.

chances are, your car makes the same power as his, as the J-spec engines i believe ran a little more boost and more aggressive timing. they're rated about 20HP higher than the US versions.

if yuo want a cheap and easy (and TEMPORARY) boost controller (after you get your boost gauge of course), get a plastic tee and cut off the center leg, leaving about 1/2" of the plastic on that leg. use a dremel to cut a slot in that leg, then screw a set screw into the hole down to where it closes off the slot.

it'll look like this:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid95/p5c7c1a6cdbe43df1890435e591945862/fa22535d.jpg

intstall it on the small vacuum line between the compressor outlet and the wastegate. watch your boost gauge. unscrew it (opening the slot) a little at a time. this will bleed off some pressure to the wastegate and raise your boost. start at stock, WATCH THE BOOST GAUGE, and work slowly. turn it up 3-4 psi and he wont' stand a chance. it'll cost you $1.50 in parts from your local hardware store.

you'll have to deal with your fuel cut as well. install a potentiometer on the blue wire on the turbo pressure (MAP) sensor and use it to raise your fuel cut. there's a ton of info on this mod, just search google and you'll find it..

i just ordered :
Autometer ultra-lite gauges (afm, water temp, oil pressure, and boost)
two 7.5in spal push fan (trunk lid)
7.5in spal pull fan (intercooler)
Apex power intake
B&M shift kit
NGK BKR7E plugs
Greddy profec b spec 2 boost controller
greddy turbo timer


when it's all installed we'll race :) hehehe

so jealous.
i wish i could bring myself to fork over money for my car. unfortunately, i'm cheap, and thus i'm doomed to doing more work to go fast.
i cringe to think of the cold day in february when i'll hand over the cash for a standalone EMS so i can use my super 16g to its full potential.

remember to raise the fuel cut too, or your EFI will shut off right before you hand him his ass :D

so what do I need the HKS fuel cut defencer?

nah, build your own. it'll cost you $3 in parts and it's the exact same thing as the HKS.

get a potentiometer from radioshack. 1K ohm will do.
connect one fo the outside pins to ground. cut the blue wire on the turbo pressure sensor and connect the wire on the sensor side to the other outside pin. the middle pin on the pot goes to the wire that goes back to the ECU.

turn the pot all the way towards the blue wire on the outside and you're at stock fuel cut. the more you turn the pot towards ground, the higher you raise your fuel cut. if you have a voltmeter, measure between the center pin and ground. when it hits 4.4v, you have fuel cut. the potentiometer allows you to adjust the pressure at which you hit 4.4v. i think i have the exact ohm values somewhere for specific boost pressures...

haha mr magiver mr2 :)

ok so after these mods will I have any problems beating that car?

I bought the HKS fuel cut defencer as well..

i think it shouldnt be that hard after you instal the stuff depending on how high you run your boost... do you plan on gettin a new turbo as well?

oh yeah just wanted to clear up that there is no such thing as the ct20b turbo... there is only a later generation ct26 turbo which people started calling the ct20b turbo to tell the difference between the two... and the most you can get out of it is 350hp of course that is gettin all the power that you can out of the engine w/ that turbo

Dude, thats like saying "there is no MR-S, its just a next generation MR2 that people called something different."

If its a different turbo, with a different name, it "exists." No such thing... hah, now Santa, thats a real mystery....

oh yeah just wanted to clear up that there is no such thing as the ct20b turbo... there is only a later generation ct26 turbo which people started calling the ct20b turbo to tell the difference between the two... and the most you can get out of it is 350hp of course that is gettin all the power that you can out of the engine w/ that turbo

i'm guessing you're talking crank HP. that's what i was referring to in my earlier posts, not WHP. just want to make sure we're all using the same units here.

regardless of what it actually is, it's most commonly referred to as the CT20B. just to avoid confusion, it's probably best to use that term for it.

no but u dont get it... see that toyota actually calls it the mr-s.. you will never hear anything directly from toyota saying ct20b... there is no such thing... someone just made it up and it spread everywhere... so basically your saying that just because someone makes a rumor it exists which makes no sense at all...

and actually people do get confused and mistake the ct20 turbo for the "ct20b" which doesnt even bolt on to the 3sgte/5sfe/3sge engine..

directly from toyosport

"We have imported and sold many of ALL these engines types. We have ordered and sold many replacement turbos for the 3SGTE 3rd Generation. There is no casting designation identifying these turbos as CT20 or CT20 B. Many shops and individuals continue to sell and modify this turbo without knowing what they are handling. We have given this information to all inquiries for this particular turbo.

There have been many 3SGTE Celica and MR2 owners who have been misled into buying the real CT20 turbo from the older turbo engines. The seller is 100% correct in selling them as such with the casting # to prove so. Shops and individuals who pass the CT20 as upgrade for the 3SGTE- do not know any better. The buyer must be made aware that if they want the real 3SGTE 3RD Generation Turbo- it is not the CT20 or 20B. NO, we have not sold any of the CT20 / 20B as upgrade or update for the 3SGTE engines, despite insistence from many to purchase a CT20 /20B based on misinformation from the internet. In some Toyota literature these 3SGTE 3rd Generation turbos are still referred to as the CT26.

There are actually 2 different 3SGTE 3RD Generation Turbos- #1 as installed in the 1994 - up Celica ST205 and MR2 SW20 vehicles the flange is similar to the CT26 but with a Twin Entry casting and Ceramic impellers; #2 as installed in the Caldina ST215 (and other ST2XX models) including the newest 2004 model Caldina ST246- the turbo center section housing is cast in one piece with the exhaust manifold, also with Ceramic impellers. Again there is no identifying models on this turbo."

the point i'm trying to make is that the term "CT20B" has become common nomenclature in the MR2 community. this turbo is easily differentiated from the older CT20's, which were tiny in comparison. it's also differentiated from the standard USDM CT26 by an extra bolt on the turbine housing outlet.

either way, whether it exists in toyota's parts books is irrelevent. it's a term that, while maybe originating out of obscurity, has become commonplace. it's like technobabble really.. "e-mail," "internet," "website," et al at one point didn't exist, nor were they referred to by those names by the people who initially developed the technology. they were coined by end-users, and became commonplace in our language to refer to those things. the same has happened with the CT20b. you say CT20b and anyone with an MR2 knows you're talking about the gen III j-spec MR2 turbo. call it a nickname if you will. either way, it's here to stay.

I raced a all track stock for stock ... i have a 91 mr2 turbo.....i barely beat him....so you stock and all his mods....he would win.....unless you are a fricken good driver.

cool but I have a jdm swap which is 25 more hp.

not exactly.. when you do the swap dont you have to get a differnt ecu? you will lose hp through there

man how we've gone off topic lol

91 dx, as scarecrowX said, there is no way in hell your friend has 300 hp. No way, absolutely no way. Your car should beat him with nothing but a new exhaust and intake because he will lose speed from awd and his new exhaust tip won't give him much more than 3 hp if he is lucky. As for your post on all the mods you just bought for your car, consider upgrading your turbo to a T4 and new injectors, fuel pump, fuel rail, and oil pump to go with it. You can easily push 350 hp with the stock internals without having to run rediculous psi with your turbo if you change some of the engine componets. Also might want to ugrade your clutch if you have a stage 1 and lighten your flywheel to add to the gains. These are just some things I listed for you, there are tons others along with ways to install them im sure other people will comment on but for now, gluck with everything!

If turbo boost and scare crow both think that your car and your friends' are pretty equal (i think as well). I say just freakin take him! no mods needed, dont forget guys, WE are the most important mod in a car. Its all about the driver. I mean for example the stock evolution 8's is said to run a 1/4 mile in 13.5 i believe? When the japanese pro drivers from "Best MotoRing" ( if anyone ever watched any) drove those stock they clocked in at 12.8!!!!!!! You gotta test yourself and just see how crappy or great of a driver you are! So i say F the mods and see whos a better driver, and after you beat him, he'll feel even more stupid when you tell him you are running stock.

oh yea and by the way, dont pay attention to the above post if you are planning to take on anything that is way above your HP cuz it wont work. But you guys have to give it to me, it was a good pep rally eh?

yea cool thanks man

my mods now:

JDM gen2 3SGTE turbo swap
HKS fuel cut defencer
NGK BKR7E plugs
Autometer ultra-lite A/F gauge
Autometer ultra-lite boost gauge
Autometer ultra-lite oil gauge
Autometer dual gauge pod
7.5in spal push fan (intercooler)
7.5in spal pull fan (intercooler)
Apexi power intake
B&M shift kit
Greddy profec b spec 2 boost controller Greddy full auto turbo timer
Greddy remote switching system
kyb agx gas shocks
eibach sportline springs


coming sometime before this spring is :

a'pexi n1 full exhaust system
greddy intercooler kit
NX intercooler spray


then i'm done for the spring/summer. So I honestly don't even know if I'll race him now because it's clear who would win and I don't really have anything to prove so .. I dunno we'll see I guess. Maybe just for fun. We're friends so maybe. peace