GM Sucks

Yeah, i own a Camaro. But anymore, GM really "sucks" in general. GM hasnt made anything "good" or worth owning IMO since the Camaro (02). Sure, they got the 50K Covette, but not everyone can really afford the C-5. Then theirs the GTO, which is really a holden (durh) I guess GM is learning slowly with the revised avalanche, but they still have all their other FWD "Sports" cars. They dont make the Cavy Z24 anymore, their GA GT gets beat by Civics, The monte Carlo "SS".. I guess their may be hope for the GTP GP. Gm has got a new head-manager (i guess thats what its called) who is 50+ years old. Hopefully that will change and all these cars that are supposed to be attracting "young" kids, and will bring back some RWD cars, and resemble cars of yester year. Thanks for letting me rant.

Rant on! But, I suggest the Cadillac line is looking pretty sweet. :iceslolan

Cadillac.......... the Seville and Deville are outdated, wafty and horrible, the Escalade, ESV and EXT are among the worst SUV's on sale, the XLR is FAAAAAAAR overpriced and the CTS Is an average (and ugly) 3-series clone ;)

Rant on! But, I suggest the Cadillac line is looking pretty sweet. :iceslolan

:1: Cadillac is looking really good. They've grown by leaps and bounds. I can't wait for the XLR-V.

GM's product line up does have some bright spots, but overall, GM has been an absolute disaster for 25 years. As recently as 1980 they had 49% of the North American car market.

Now they have 28 %. The buyers are voting with their wallets and GM sucks, in the market place. Their only strong suit is trucks and that may not last. I wish it were not so, as I grew up on GM (and AMC!!!)

I think they are slowly turning around, and I expect more RWD cars in the near future. I hope so.......everyone needs some good competition, or we're screwed!

and I expect more RWD cars in the near future.

I just got this month's R&T and they mentioned that the Pontiac Solstice's platform (Kappa?) will be used in cars from various GM divisions. One cannot fault rolling out a whole series of small-bore RWD cars! This approach, rather than let the Solstice live or die as a low-volume specialty car, might mean it could survice the next bean-counter's purge of the line-up.

My vote is for that copy of the 1954 Corvette Waldorf Nomad I saw in the magazine; it's been a long time since we've been able to buy a 2-door wagon.

"Cadillac.......... the Seville and Deville are outdated, wafty and horrible, the Escalade, ESV and EXT are among the worst SUV's on sale, the XLR is FAAAAAAAR overpriced and the CTS Is an average (and ugly) 3-series clone"

Actually if you look at them on their company sites, the CTS has more for the buck of everything than the M3 does. As for quality, I posted this next bit in another thread, but it'll do here as well:

Check out the initial quality press release for mid size luxury cars from JD power:

http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/rele...rch.asp?CatID=1

"The study shows that the initial quality gap between Domestic, European, Japanese and Korean brands continues to narrow. While Domestics trailed their European and Japanese counterparts by at least 19 PP100 five years ago, Domestics and Europeans are now equal, and both trail the Japanese by 9 PP100. Korean manufacturers have demonstrated substantial five-year improvements in initial quality. In 1998, 116 PP100 separated Korean brands from the Europeans, which led the industry. By 2003, the quality gap between the Koreans and the industry-leading Japanese fell to 26 PP100."

In the number of problems per 100 vehicles it goes,
(Lexus is the best by a longshot, Caddy is number 2)

1. Lexus = 76
2. CADILLAC = 103
3. Infiniti = 110
4. Acura = 111
8. BMW = 118
14. Audi = 132
14. Mercedes Benz = 132
24. Volkswagen = 143

Industry average is 133 problems per 100 vehicles, which means Volkswagen failed to meet average and Audi and Mercedes barely squeaked by. Chevrolet, scored right above Mercedes and Audi.

That was initial quality, when you first buy the car, now check out the dependability study...

"Other notable performances in the 2003 results include Subaru and GMC, which both performed considerably better when measured at three years in VDS than when they were measured at 90 days of ownership. At the other end of the spectrum is Mercedes-Benz, which experiences the largest quality gap between initial quality and long-term quality measurements. Also deteriorating more rapidly than the average vehicle are Audi and Volvo."

"The 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from more than 55,000 original owners of 2000 model-year cars and light trucks. The study covers 147 specific problem symptoms grouped into nine major vehicle systems. For the first time, the study reviews models at three years of ownership instead of the historical four- to five-year period in order to better support manufacturer product improvement efforts in next-generation replacement models."

Once again, this is in problems per 100 vehicles, but over a 3 year period in this study:
1. Lexus = 163
2. Infiniti = 174
3. Buick = 179
6. Toyota = 201
7. Cadillac = 209
13. BMW = 262
26. Audi = 318
26. Mercedes = 318
(Yes folks, Merc and Audi scored worse than Dodge)
28. Volvo = 330
32. Volkswagen = 391

I would say anyones bias against Cadillac should be more on looks, (although I think they all look awesome), rather than quality and certainly price, because Caddy, owns, BMW in both of those catagories. In the years since Lutz came to GM, it's changed a lot, for the better in most cases. It'll get better in the future I'll bet.

The GTO shouldn't be a letdown, and the monte carlo SS now has a s/c. Chevy needs to do something better with the silverado ss, but you can get it s/c from the factory, many people don't know this. The XLR is good looking and powerful. The avalanche still looks gay though.

The Monte Carlo and some other FWD lines are a good example of GM's problems.
They still use the 3.8 L pushrod V6, when most everyone else has hemispherical 4 valve OHC or DOHC engines for years.

Now the 3.8 is a great high tourque, indestructable engine (I have one and its fine) , but it does not have the performance or appeal of the others.
This is one problem, but typical of GM's non competive product line.

The Monte Carlo and some other FWD lines are a good example of GM's problems.
They still use the 3.8 L pushrod V6, when most everyone else has hemispherical 4 valve OHC or DOHC engines for years.

Now the 3.8 is a great high tourque, indestructable engine (I have one and its fine) , but it does not have the performance or appeal of the others.
This is one problem, but typical of GM's non competive product line.


WTF?? Pushrod > OHC.

Cadillac.......... the Seville and Deville are outdated, wafty and horrible, the Escalade, ESV and EXT are among the worst SUV's on sale, the XLR is FAAAAAAAR overpriced and the CTS Is an average (and ugly) 3-series clone ;)

XLR is overpriced? How so? I'm not sure how you can make that argument without relying on perceived "prestige" differences between brands.

Actually the XLR is about 10-15K cheaper than the car it's competing against, (Mercedes SL500), and comes available with more options, the same standard equipment and more power, all at a cheaper price. Once again, the Caddy owns...

Hey ground rat,

You said"WTF?? Pushrod > OHC."

Apparently not even GM agrees.
I have 8 cars with pushrods and I tell you overhead cams are better breathing, especially at higher revs with more efficient combustion chamber shape, for more power and better fuel economy.
Pushrod engines are cheaper to make and provide more low end torque. Now if that is what you want, great. Pushrods are better, in trucks, farm tractors etc.
But for todays marketplace, for cars, OHC is superior.
Even GM thinks so. Have you seen their newer engine designs?

The CTS, just reeks of cloned 3 series, with a dash of IS200 added for that oriental flavour and more for the buck?? than an M3??? You'd better mean the CTS-V, because any other CTS looks over priced when placed next to a 3 series or G35, especially the G. What does a CTS cost??? About $30,000 in base form?? What does the CTS offer that a 330i doesn't??? I can assure you that the 4-5k premium for a 330i is more than justified- especially since the Caddy has to be specced up to the BMW's dynamic standards normaly (Which=$$$$$$$$$$$$)

I know I'd sooner have a G35, IS300, A4 or 3 series.
I'd refuse to drive around in something so shamelessly ugly as a CTS, you get all the same stuff in the end.

And why are VW being shown as a Luxury manufacturer???? The side is undeniably let down by the Mexican Golfs, Jettas and Beetles, and these are by no means a luxury car. I reckon the Passat and Touareg on thier own would yield much better results.

Caddy does not "own" BMW in value or quality- your figurees you posted tell me that. Cadillac have more or less a humble advantage in quality, not that I ever used quality as any argument, I'd sooner gouge my eyes out than drive a Toyota, but that doesn't stop them being of the highest quality in the world.

and the XLR, how could it be anything but overpriced??? It's slower than a Z4, slower than a Boxster S, yet neither of the two are exactly Spartan and are both ultra-refined cars that will let you have enormous amounts of fun.......All the XLR offers that they don't is stupid little gadgets nobody needs and more power. So why anyone'd want one is beyond me, it, like all Cadillacs, is also ugly. But that's my subjective opinion.

Does it even have a manual option???? And yes, I do think a Merc SL500 is far overpriced as well. Same situation as the XLR, except not ugly. Of course the SL55 AMG is a big exception to that, since it's a damn good car and worth every penny over the XLR/SL500, but thats getting off the topic.

http://autos.yahoo.com/compare/compare_over.html?count=3&cmpCar1=cadillac04ctssedan&cmpCar2=bmw043series330isedan

There you go, compare away dude!

BMW base price= $35,200
BMW dealer invoice=$32,190

CTS base price= $30,490
CTS dealer invoice= $28,203

This isn't the best of comparison engines though, not compared to the one I found earlier... oh well, you can look it up yourself, but it's true. The newest version of the CTS I believe will have the option of getting the 3.6 V6 with the manual tranny instead of only the 3.2. the 3.6 has 255 horsepower as opposed to the 3.2 having 220. Go to a dealership and check it out yourself, they have good prices on them, even fully loaded ones are cheaper than mid range 3 series.

"I know I'd sooner have a G35, IS300, A4 or 3 series.
I'd refuse to drive around in something so shamelessly ugly as a CTS, you get all the same stuff in the end."

Well at least your bias is based on looks, looks is all about preference and opinion, quality and price, is about facts. Caddy beats BMW in price and at least matches them in quality, although from what I've seen with my own eyes and with all the reports, they've surpassed them by now, and in the case of the 330i, if you get the 3.6 V6, it beats them in power too.

The XLR was only built to specifically compete with the SL500 in it's class, so the other cars you mentioned aren't supposed to be in its price range.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0307_lux/

there's an article by MT on the Lexus, XLR and Benz comparo. If you even credit MT that is. One more thing, give the XLR a bit more performance credit dude, it's based off the C6 chassis. That says a little about its performance.

Yes, GM sucks. Period.

Hey ground rat,

You said"WTF?? Pushrod > OHC."

Apparently not even GM agrees.
I have 8 cars with pushrods and I tell you overhead cams are better breathing, especially at higher revs with more efficient combustion chamber shape, for more power and better fuel economy.
Pushrod engines are cheaper to make and provide more low end torque. Now if that is what you want, great. Pushrods are better, in trucks, farm tractors etc.
But for todays marketplace, for cars, OHC is superior.
Even GM thinks so. Have you seen their newer engine designs?



Although there is no doubt that ohc cam has some advantages it cirtainly doesn't mean that push rod engines are obsolete. GM has proved that they can make push rod engines to compete with the best of them (ls1) also ohc's main claim to fame is that they are more stable at higher engines speeds, this is not the rpm range that you car spends most its time at so its waisted. Its much better to have an engine with a strong torque curve between 1000-4500rpm. Ohc's also tend to be heavier and taller creativing a higher center of gravity as well as requiring very long timing chains/belts. Although gm has brough out more ohc engines lately in my opinion and many would agree i'm sure is their 3.8l pushrod buick engine. It is dead reliable and has and exilent torque curve and beats most of the ohc on fuel economy, it also it capable making huge amounts of power as demonstaghed by the buick grand national of the 80's. Ohc has kinda just become a buzz word to sell cars I can just see a ford truck sales man telling a potential coustomer how fords are better than gm trucks because gm uses and antiquated push-rod design and people buying the ford cause they think ohc "better"When in reality the push-rod engine would have surved them just as well especially inna truck.

I dont know about now but I read somwhere that BMW was buying transmissions and other parts from Cadillac because they are superior and better quality than those of BMW's own designs.


I will only buy GM vehicles, so as far as I am concerned all those crappy BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus's and all those other brands are only selling more cars as of right now because of their reputation and name of the past. If you compare a Cadillac to any of those other cars it is just as good if not superior to them.


GM as a whole has closed the gap considerably with other brands as far as quality and performance goes. The only problem is getting all the people who have been brainwashed into thinking that GM sucks to change their thinking and look at GM cars as a superior alternative to other imported brands.


Either way you look at it GM is BACK!!

I totally agree gonenuts15792.I tell yah,I was at that car show in NYC last April and GM was looking good.There making a huge turn around in their products.Especially Cadillac.I really love all their products.Always have.When i went to check that 16 out there must have been about 100 people around it.That car is amazing.And I really like their new solid edge design theme.Cadillac is making a huge turn around from their downfall from the '80's too.Ive rented Benz's,BMW,Lexus's,Jaguars and other and from my personnel experience driving them,Id take a Caddy over any of them.The way the ride and the rock solid quality of the cars is unbelieveable.Not to say the others are bad cars.I liked them a lot too.But to say Caddies are crap is assenine.I'd have to say that Cadillac is quite superior to BMW's because the Beemers I rented,well,they just don't seem to be built as well.Little annoying things like rattles and being able to here the acceleration of the engine,and the ride isnt as good as in a Caddy.Now I know you Europeans will respond and say Im crazy and blah blah blah.But thats my opinion from my own experiences with the cars.But GM is looking great for the future.I also like Buicks new designs.That Park Avenue is particular.

Excuse me...

"That Park Avenue is particular."

I meant That Park Avenue IN particular.Not is.Sorry about that.

Although there is no doubt that ohc cam has some advantages it cirtainly doesn't mean that push rod engines are obsolete. GM has proved that they can make push rod engines to compete with the best of them (ls1) also ohc's main claim to fame is that they are more stable at higher engines speeds, this is not the rpm range that you car spends most its time at so its waisted. Its much better to have an engine with a strong torque curve between 1000-4500rpm. Ohc's also tend to be heavier and taller creativing a higher center of gravity as well as requiring very long timing chains/belts. Although gm has brough out more ohc engines lately in my opinion and many would agree i'm sure is their 3.8l pushrod buick engine. It is dead reliable and has and exilent torque curve and beats most of the ohc on fuel economy, it also it capable making huge amounts of power as demonstaghed by the buick grand national of the 80's. Ohc has kinda just become a buzz word to sell cars I can just see a ford truck sales man telling a potential coustomer how fords are better than gm trucks because gm uses and antiquated push-rod design and people buying the ford cause they think ohc "better"When in reality the push-rod engine would have surved them just as well especially inna truck.


(Sigh)

I agree with you on the points you make. I have a 3.8 v6 in my collection and it is an excellent engine.
However, if OHC engines are more expensive to make so why is everyone doing so?
Because they are better.
OHC engines have opposed (hemi type) combustion chambers and are thermodynamically more efficient. That is, they can support higher compression without detonation, and the centrally located spark plug makes for more complete combustion. with more power and less emmissions.
All this means more power with less fuel.
As far as their rev range, with high end power vs low end torque, this is a factor of cam timing and valve size, not basic design. There are some great high torque low rev OHC engines. My Mustang has one (Ford 2.3L) It just does not make any more power than an pushrod 4 cyl of the same size, because it does not rev. However, it does get better fuel economy because the design is more efficient. And it has more power potential.
The high horsepower 3.8 v6 engines were turbos and do not count A turbo can make great power come from a Model T engine.

Sure OHC is a buzz word for selling cars. It may not matter for many people.
But this agrees with my first point. GM sucks because it has lagged far behind in engine technologies and its products are not competitive in the marketplace, for many reasons.
Most car buyers do not perceive GM cars to be worth buying. GM market share has dropped from 49% to 28% in 24 years. This is a DISASTER for GM and for the North American auto industry.
If a Ford has OHC and a Chev has ancient pushrods, regardless of how well they work, buyers will doubt the GM product.
Simply put, GM is not competitive, and millions of buyers agree.

[QUOTE=gonenuts15792]I dont know about now but I read somwhere that BMW was buying transmissions and other parts from Cadillac because they are superior and better quality than those of BMW's own designs.


I will only buy GM vehicles, so as far as I am concerned all those crappy BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus's and all those other brands are only selling more cars as of right now because of their reputation and name of the past. If you compare a Cadillac to any of those other cars it is just as good if not superior to them.


GM as a whole has closed the gap considerably with other brands as far as quality and performance goes. The only problem is getting all the people who have been brainwashed into thinking that GM sucks to change their thinking and look at GM cars as a superior alternative to other imported brands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you ever driven a 'crappy BMW or Mercedes" etc? I ws brought up on GM and my first BMW was such an eye opener. It was so much better than anything GM made at the time that even myself, a big GM car fan had to admit the BMW and a Mercedes I had a bit later were much much better.
My first BMW was 1981 and what was Cadillac selling then? A POC V8-6-4, unreliable, sloppy handling, slow nightmare. I own one so I know. Trust me, If I had bough the Caddy new instead of the BMW I would feel supremely ripped off.
However, GM ignored this kind of cometiition for years at their peril. For too long they relied on blindly loyal customer such as yourself instead of building better products. Do you want a list of the GM disasters in the last 25 years? How about their diesel cars. The diesel 6.2/6.5 L, the GM rusty frames in just about every seperate chassis car. Front wheel drive steering racks. The 2.5 L 4 cyl with porous engine castings. The 700 R 4 transmissions that broke so ofen, 1982 to 1987, the 3.1 v6 head gaskets. Flat camshafts in the Chev 305. Spun rod bearings in the 2.8 V6. Paint on just about anything from the early to mid 80's. The squeaks in the Corvette and the entire Fiero. I could go on, but you get the point.

GM sales suck and they have to sell everything at huge discounts now because they destroyed their good name through poor managemnt and poor products. I do not think millions of buyers have been "brainwashed". They have been able to see the obvious for years. GM sucks. Sure they are catching up, and I am glad to see that.
However, they should never had allowed themselves to drop behind so far. In fact if they had fewer fans such as yourself blindly buying their products over the years, perhaps they would not have felt so complacent and would have built better stuff.

I dont know about now but I read somwhere that BMW was buying transmissions and other parts from Cadillac because they are superior and better quality than those of BMW's own designs.


I will only buy GM vehicles, so as far as I am concerned all those crappy BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus's and all those other brands are only selling more cars as of right now because of their reputation and name of the past. If you compare a Cadillac to any of those other cars it is just as good if not superior to them.


GM as a whole has closed the gap considerably with other brands as far as quality and performance goes. The only problem is getting all the people who have been brainwashed into thinking that GM sucks to change their thinking and look at GM cars as a superior alternative to other imported brands.


Either way you look at it GM is BACK!!
The only thing I can think of that is kept tighter shut than your mind is GM Brochures.


Sorry, but everything you have said reeks of pathetic ignorance- You only buy GM's, you said so yourself, you don't know what BMW"s, Infiniti's, Merc's or Lexus' are like.

The 3 series, G35 and IS200 offer a better driving experience than a standard 3.2 CTS. The Sport package helps, but that takes it a bit beyond thier territory. The Deville and Seville don't stand a chance, against anything, from any luxury maker- Well maybe the Hyundai Equus or Centennial :lol:


Oh, did you know that the CTS engines are imported??? The 2.6 and 3.2 are both Opel blocks, yes OPEL- Ze Chermans!!!! and the new 3.6 is coming from Holden in Australia! So stop talking crap about Imported brands, the CTS Is very un American- even uses an Opel platform, I believe.


GM is back??? LEt's see now. They killed the Camaro and Firebird, they have the ancient, lumbering FWD sedans- Cavalier, Seville, Deville, Century, Le Sabre, Regal, Grand Prix, Grand Am etc. they are importing a Daewoo as a Chevy, they have the Australian Monaro as the Pontiac GTO, the Opel CTS (Doesn't quite hold the candle to it's competition), the overpriced XLR, there is the ugly AND overpriced SSR and a range of shonky Utes and SUV's. Looks like they're on thier way down. They've already lost a lot of market share and it isn't hard to see why.

The C6 Corvette is the only glimmer of hope for the ailing GM. Even the European GM offerings suck- except the Saab motors and seats. Thank god GM can't touch Subaru. Holden are about the only good thing GM have got going, really.

And the stuff about BMW buying GM transmissions is crap, shoot your messenger. BMW have spent shitloads on Sequential R & D and the Auto transmissions, they aren't going to blow it now.

GM is back??? LEt's see now. They killed the Camaro and Firebird, they have the ancient, lumbering FWD sedans- Cavalier, Seville, Deville, Century, Le Sabre, Regal, Grand Prix, Grand Am etc. they are importing a Daewoo as a Chevy, they have the Australian Monaro as the Pontiac GTO, the Opel CTS (Doesn't quite hold the candle to it's competition), the overpriced XLR, there is the ugly AND overpriced SSR and a range of shonky Utes and SUV's. Looks like they're on thier way down. They've already lost a lot of market share and it isn't hard to see why.

Agreed.

Their still may be hope for the GTO. I mean, its the closest thing we can get to an F-Body, not to mention GM has made a turn around in their sterio systems- Blaupunkt is standard in the new GTO-instead of the Delco's. The GTO is a mid 13 second car, about .2 seconds slower then the standard 02 Camaro SS. But, the GTO still doesnt have the appealing looks of the F-Body. Also, SLP is in the works of making after market performance parts, and its said that GM is making "The Judge" GTO. It will supposedly have the LS6 engine platform, 18" wheels, and an edgy body kit, which is actually quite appealing.

Do you want a list of the GM disasters in the last 25 years? How about their diesel cars. The diesel 6.2/6.5 L, the GM rusty frames in just about every seperate chassis car. Front wheel drive steering racks. The 2.5 L 4 cyl with porous engine castings. The 700 R 4 transmissions that broke so ofen, 1982 to 1987, the 3.1 v6 head gaskets. Flat camshafts in the Chev 305. Spun rod bearings in the 2.8 V6. Paint on just about anything from the early to mid 80's. The squeaks in the Corvette and the entire Fiero. I could go on, but you get the point.


Well.. i mean...c'mon, nothing was really good about cars from the 80's Lets just look at cars like the carbed 302- yeah..185 HP. Ford didnt have such good luck with their Diesels-especially in their Mark VII LSC- with the BMW-Streyer diesels..not to mention such cars as the Festiva and Aspire.. (Im only mentioning ford, since it seemed to be the biggest compeititor in the last 25 yrs)
I will openly admit, The 3.1, 2.8, and the 305 were all terrible engines, but the 305 still has some hope, as their are tons of bolt ons for it, but times have changed, the 3.8 In the Camaro's is still faster then the 3.8 in the Mustangs...

Yes, GM sucks. Period.

Honda people....

(Sigh)

I agree with you on the points you make. I have a 3.8 v6 in my collection and it is an excellent engine.
However, if OHC engines are more expensive to make so why is everyone doing so?
Because they are better.
OHC engines have opposed (hemi type) combustion chambers and are thermodynamically more efficient. That is, they can support higher compression without detonation, and the centrally located spark plug makes for more complete combustion. with more power and less emmissions.
All this means more power with less fuel.
As far as their rev range, with high end power vs low end torque, this is a factor of cam timing and valve size, not basic design. There are some great high torque low rev OHC engines. My Mustang has one (Ford 2.3L) It just does not make any more power than an pushrod 4 cyl of the same size, because it does not rev. However, it does get better fuel economy because the design is more efficient. And it has more power potential.
The high horsepower 3.8 v6 engines were turbos and do not count A turbo can make great power come from a Model T engine.

Sure OHC is a buzz word for selling cars. It may not matter for many people.
But this agrees with my first point. GM sucks because it has lagged far behind in engine technologies and its products are not competitive in the marketplace, for many reasons.
Most car buyers do not perceive GM cars to be worth buying. GM market share has dropped from 49% to 28% in 24 years. This is a DISASTER for GM and for the North American auto industry.
If a Ford has OHC and a Chev has ancient pushrods, regardless of how well they work, buyers will doubt the GM product.
Simply put, GM is not competitive, and millions of buyers agree.

Automanufactures do alot of things that aren't nesicarily better. They have found that high hp numbers sell and the only way to make good hp numbers with small engines is to rev them to the mood which obviously ohc is best for. Any thing ohc is the buz word and people buy them even if they have no idea why. The ls1 is in no way an ancaric engine and if you think it is all I can say is it makes fords modular 4.6/5.4 look pretty bad if it is.It is true that the hemi type conbustion chamber is very good for effiency but push rod engines can have this decided as well. I never said that pushrod engines make more torque than ohc ones what I said was that for engines tuned for torque its a more logical design as low rpm engines don't reap and of the benifits of ohc design but get the disadvantages. As for the 3.8 buick engines not counting, well I can garanty you that not every engine by any means can make that kinda power just by trowing on a turbo. The 3800 has long since been known as a very efficent engine not to mention durable. Until recently it had similar numbers to the competitors with ohc/dohc design and better fuel economy than most. The coupled with an engine that is rock solid and known how to be worked on and repaired by every mechanic in north america makes it a pretty hard combo to beat

How about we all shutup and believe what we all want to believe. I am so sick of people beating each other up about which car is better, get over it. People will buy whatever car they what and nobody can change that. End of story.

I totally agree gonenuts15792.I tell yah,I was at that car show in NYC last April and GM was looking good.There making a huge turn around in their products.Especially Cadillac.I really love all their products.Always have.When i went to check that 16 out there must have been about 100 people around it.That car is amazing.And I really like their new solid edge design theme.Cadillac is making a huge turn around from their downfall from the '80's too.Ive rented Benz's,BMW,Lexus's,Jaguars and other and from my personnel experience driving them,Id take a Caddy over any of them.The way the ride and the rock solid quality of the cars is unbelieveable.Not to say the others are bad cars.I liked them a lot too.But to say Caddies are crap is assenine.I'd have to say that Cadillac is quite superior to BMW's because the Beemers I rented,well,they just don't seem to be built as well.Little annoying things like rattles and being able to here the acceleration of the engine,and the ride isnt as good as in a Caddy.Now I know you Europeans will respond and say Im crazy and blah blah blah.But thats my opinion from my own experiences with the cars.But GM is looking great for the future.I also like Buicks new designs.That Park Avenue is particular.

Finally someone agrees.

In response to Jimster:



"The only thing I can think of that is kept tighter shut than your mind is GM Brochures."


Very funny.


"Sorry, but everything you have said reeks of pathetic ignorance- You only buy GM's, you said so yourself, you don't know what BMW"s, Infiniti's, Merc's or Lexus' are like."


I do know what they are like. I have drove them and they are like peices of sh*t. That is the reason I only buy GM. GM is the only one that I feel has the reliability, quality and comfort that I want.


"The 3 series, G35 and IS200 offer a better driving experience than a standard 3.2 CTS. The Sport package helps, but that takes it a bit beyond thier territory. The Deville and Seville don't stand a chance, against anything, from any luxury maker- Well maybe the Hyundai Equus or Centennial :lol:"


I take it you have never drove a Cadillac to begin with.


"Oh, did you know that the CTS engines are imported??? The 2.6 and 3.2 are both Opel blocks, yes OPEL- Ze Chermans!!!! and the new 3.6 is coming from Holden in Australia! So stop talking crap about Imported brands, the CTS Is very un American- even uses an Opel platform, I believe."


Yes those parts are imported but both companies are controlled by GM so that doesn't make a difference.


"GM is back??? LEt's see now. They killed the Camaro and Firebird, they have the ancient, lumbering FWD sedans- Cavalier, Seville, Deville, Century, Le Sabre, Regal, Grand Prix, Grand Am etc. they are importing a Daewoo as a Chevy, they have the Australian Monaro as the Pontiac GTO, the Opel CTS (Doesn't quite hold the candle to it's competition), the overpriced XLR, there is the ugly AND overpriced SSR and a range of shonky Utes and SUV's. Looks like they're on thier way down. They've already lost a lot of market share and it isn't hard to see why."


If they have lost so much market share than why the hell are they still NUMBER ONE. 29% of the market is still a hell of a lot compared to other brands so they must be doing something right. SO GM IS BACK RATHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The C6 Corvette is the only glimmer of hope for the ailing GM. Even the European GM offerings suck- except the Saab motors and seats. Thank god GM can't touch Subaru. Holden are about the only good thing GM have got going, really.



You are really starting to F*cking piss me off. Over the past 2 years automotive critics and other automakers even are praising GM for what they have done to become a better car company



And the stuff about BMW buying GM transmissions is crap, shoot your messenger. BMW have spent shitloads on Sequential R & D and the Auto transmissions, they aren't going to blow it now.

I AM part wrong on this. BMW, Opel, Rang Rover, and Cadillac Use this transmission.

Info on this page: http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/5l40.htm



I'm sorry but I just couldn't resist replying to this one even though I said that everyone should shutup and leave it alone.

If you think that BMW/Merc/Lexus are crap and Cadillac is great, then you have some issues. How many RWD saloons does Cadillac make, one???? OK thank you, betcha must love all that Torque steer in your FWD V8s.

BMW and Merc quality is just as good as Cadillac, bar the Merc C-Class and Lexus quality/reliability, is a hell of a lot better, than anything, really and the comfort in all is top notch, but add to that- you get something enjoyable to drive!!! The anti-thesis of most Caddy's.

And I have driven Cadillacs, a few CTS' and a Seville STS, the STS was god-awful, understeer for Africa, too damn big and WAY too wafty.

29% is nothing compared to what they once had and if it's falling, then what is preventing it from ffalling further???? Certainly not GM Product.

Basically, until I See some evidence of GM making something decent that doesn't start with "Cor" and end with "Vette" then I'll start thinking they're back.

"If you think that BMW/Merc/Lexus are crap and Cadillac is great, then you have some issues. How many RWD saloons does Cadillac make, one???? OK thank you, betcha must love all that Torque steer in your FWD V8s."


Actually Torque steer in later models has been illiminated. The CTS is RWD and will soon be offered in AWD, the Escalade is RWD or AWD, the SRX is RWD or AWD, the new Seville will be RWD, and the XLR is RWD. The only model that is still FWD is the Deville.


"BMW and Merc quality is just as good as Cadillac, bar the Merc C-Class and Lexus quality/reliability, is a hell of a lot better, than anything, really and the comfort in all is top notch, but add to that- you get something enjoyable to drive!!! The anti-thesis of most Caddy's."


I have to admit that lexus Quality is better right now(at least that is what the J.D. Power reports says), but the Cadillac is better than Mercedes and BMW in quality and reliability. That says something about Mercedes, BMW and Cadillac, either Mercedes and BMW are slipping in quality or Cadillac is becoming better than Mercedes and BMW, either way I'm happy.


"And I have driven Cadillacs, a few CTS' and a Seville STS, the STS was god-awful, understeer for Africa, too damn big and WAY too wafty."

Gee, maybe thats way Cadillac has discountinued the Seville, that is my least favorite of the Cadillacs also.


"29% is nothing compared to what they once had and if it's falling, then what is preventing it from ffalling further???? Certainly not GM Product."


Well actually the market share has improved from 28% last year to 29% this year. GM must be doing something right with their products.


"Basically, until I See some evidence of GM making something decent that doesn't start with "Cor" and end with "Vette" then I'll start thinking they're back."


The evidence is starting to show. Look at Cadillac they have come from being in a coma to being one of the top American Luxury cars.
Also there was a report that stated that Buick and Chevrolet had some of the highest customer retention in the industry. Look around and you will see the evidence that shows that GM is back( I say this once again).


P.S.
Jimster, I would like to remind you that if you are going to post a reply to something that I wrote, to first get your facts straight. I'm sick of correcting you all the time. It isn't that hard to research a topic before discussing it.

What facts aren't straight???? Enlighten me......Please.....

Oh and note I said RWD Sedan the SRX and Escalade are both SAV's and the XLR is a roadster. The new Seville has not yet been released, so it doesn't count.

From what I've experienced, in a 2001 STS, the torque steer is alive and well- understeers far too much for any car, allright if you drive on straight American roads, but damn a pain in the ass anywhere else.

Mercedes Benz have taken a quality slip of latem the electrical systems aren't panning out as Merc would like, but the consumer reports would no doubt inspire them to get things right, or risk losing business. The new E Class is so far, so good. BMW quality hasn't alipped either, in fact it has improved! Yes Cadillac quality has improved, but it still had to play catch up to do so.

Sorry, but everything you have said reeks of pathetic ignorance- You only buy GM's, you said so yourself, you don't know what BMW"s, Infiniti's, Merc's or Lexus' are like.

I DO! Remember a little spiel I posted on a while ago? About the Volkswagens having the "I can't believe it's not butter" transmissions, (in the way they feel shifting), and the peeling interior, disintegrating dashes, shif linkage breaking... etc. Not to mention I've heard model-T's that sound better. The BMW 'snap-crackle-pop, Euro-crispies' electronics? Lexus is the one to beat, it IS top notch. BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Volvo are all riding their reps and their expensive pricetags. They're nothing but a status symbol and if they don't get their asses in gear, they'll go the way of the 80's Caddies before too long, (people will realize they're shit, and stop buying them).

Oh, did you know that the CTS engines are imported??? The 2.6 and 3.2 are both Opel blocks, yes OPEL- Ze Chermans!!!! and the new 3.6 is coming from Holden in Australia! So stop talking crap about Imported brands

I'm not bagging all imports, Lexus is the best. I'm just bagging shitty cars, which happen to be imports, that everyone thinks are better than Caddy, when they aren't. As for the Opel engines, so what? Why spend the bucks designing something like that when you already own another company that has something to fit your needs?

GM is back??? LEt's see now. They killed the Camaro and Firebird, they have the ancient, lumbering FWD sedans- Cavalier, Seville, Deville, Century, Le Sabre, Regal, Grand Prix, Grand Am etc.

All of which are being redesigned, (minus the Camaro and Firebird). Lutz wants a universal rear wheel drive chassis with the midsizes and fullsizes. The GTO is using the midsize one I believe.

the Opel CTS (Doesn't quite hold the candle to it's competition), the overpriced XLR, there is the ugly AND overpriced SSR and a range of shonky Utes and SUV's. Looks like they're on thier way down. They've already lost a lot of market share and it isn't hard to see why.

The CADDY CTS spanks the competition in price and meets or exceeds them in quality. The XLR is cheaper and has more power, options and better handling than the car it was built to compete with, I'd say that makes it perfect for its intention. As for the Utes and SUVs, well, what can I say, soccer moms are overjoyed... someone at GM knows a cash cow when they see one, even if it does look retarded.


The C6 Corvette is the only glimmer of hope for the ailing GM. Even the European GM offerings suck- except the Saab motors and seats. Thank god GM can't touch Subaru. Holden are about the only good thing GM have got going, really.

European offerings for GM have always sucked, how many American cars did they used to sell there? That's why both Ford and GM did the smart thing, buy out as many European companies as you can to create your market there and you can use their tech as well. Although Ford's been losing money there for a while.

"What facts aren't straight???? Enlighten me......Please....."


Read your other posts and then research the facts, youll find enough mistakes.


"Oh and note I said RWD Sedan the SRX and Escalade are both SAV's and the XLR is a roadster. The new Seville has not yet been released, so it doesn't count."


In that case Cadillac only has 2 sedans. Most owners of the Deville are old and many want the FWD, because it is easier to handle in slippery conditions, and it is not suppose to be performance oriented so it really doesn't matter. The CTS is RWD and is the only other Sedan that is in production. Cadillac is planning on making most if not all future models either RWD or AWD. Even though the Escalade, SRX, and XLR are not Sedans they are still either RWD or AWD so you can see that Cadillac is getting away from FWD.


"From what I've experienced, in a 2001 STS, the torque steer is alive and well- understeers far too much for any car, allright if you drive on straight American roads, but damn a pain in the ass anywhere else."


By later models I mean 2002 and up, I have drove FWD Cadillacs that are made after that year and torque steer is nonexistence.


"Mercedes Benz have taken a quality slip of latem the electrical systems aren't panning out as Merc would like, but the consumer reports would no doubt inspire them to get things right, or risk losing business. The new E Class is so far, so good. BMW quality hasn't alipped either, in fact it has improved! Yes Cadillac quality has improved, but it still had to play catch up to do so."


I would hope that BMW quality has improved, I had a friend who has a BMW and its in the garage more than it is on the road. I would have to agree with you about Cadillac improving in Quality but still not as good as it could be(but of course neither is Mercedes or BMW).

Yes, I quite well remember that post abotu the VW's. I also went on to tell you about my brothers German-Jetta (Not Mexican) how it got an easy 200,000 miles on basic maintenence, with nothing falling off. The MExican ones have been known to be shite, the German ones are the way to go.

BMW Electronics don't often go wrong. Early in the last run of the 7 series, there were some cars that became redundant after the electrics gave way, that was sorted a year or so later. Early iDrive systems were troublesome, but BMW have got on top of that now. But otherwise as far as Electronics go, BMW have it down to a fine art usually a year after introducing a complex system.

Go to http://www.topgear.com and have a look at the Top Gear owners survey 2003, you'll see that most German models are up the top in the reliability ranks- except the Merc C and A Class. They manage to be just as good as and better than (In some cases) benchmark Japanese makers and quality-champ Skoda. But anyone who is stupid enough to buy a car in the first production run deserves to be hit with a lemon.

I don't know what's going on at Volvo, but damn, the cars have reputations for being indestructible, as most drivers should know.


The GTO rides on a modified V Body, this is by no means new- the Cadillac Catera and Opel Omega used the same platform.

Glad to see, gonenuts that you can't find anything I've posted as wrong, so kindly, with all due respect STFU.

Glad to see, gonenuts that you can't find anything I've posted as wrong, so kindly, with all due respect STFU.




I remember a few posts back that I kindly suggested to you the same exact thing. It wasn't put exactly that way but I thought that you would get the point, but no you have to trail on about how good imports are and how shitty General Motors compares.

its as simple as you being from Italy.

Dude, better watch what you say on that, I got a warning for that kind of shit, I'd be surprised if a mod didn't jump your ass for saying it. Besides, I like to think it's because he has a lack of experience on just how much American cars have improved over the last 10 years. Hell, the last 5 years! After all, I see LOTS of BMWs VWs Benzs and Volvos on a daily basis. How many CTSs, Sevilles, Devilles etc. do you see in Italy? In Europe as a whole for that matter?

Dude, better watch what you say on that, I got a warning for that kind of shit, I'd be surprised if a mod didn't jump your ass for saying it. Besides, I like to think it's because he has a lack of experience on just how much American cars have improved over the last 10 years. Hell, the last 5 years! After all, I see LOTS of BMWs VWs Benzs and Volvos on a daily basis. How many CTSs, Sevilles, Devilles etc. do you see in Italy? In Europe as a whole for that matter?




Thanks for the warning.

justacruiser, what do you prefer, imports or domestics.

I swear, if this even turns into another "import vs. domestic" thread...



LOL disregard my last post.

justacruiser, what do you prefer, imports or domestics.

WARNING: FOR ANY DUMBASSES OUT THERE WHO MIGHT THINK OTHERWISE AND OPEN THEIR MOUTHS TO REMIND PEOPLE OF IT, THIS IS OPINION, NOT FACT, (WELL, MOST OF IT).

To tell you the truth that depends on which category of car I'm looking at I suppose. For older classic cars, it's domestics all the way. Much easier to work on, a much better buying market and much cheaper to restore, (not to mention much better looking). They also recieve more attention unless it's some extra special import like an XKE or old Ferrari. Keep in mind this is here in America, I'd imagine it's pretty hard/expensive to restore an older American car over in Europe and damn near impossible in Japan.

As for newer cars, I mainly base it on:


A. The gut reaction the car gives me when I first see it. I look at a Benz, Audi, BMW or a Volvo and think, 'thats a pretty nice car, but I'd never spend the money on one, they're kind of... dull.' They've just never excited me. No model of any of them ever has. The TT was kind of cool I guess, but I just never got excited over it's styling. I was the same way about Caddy until all their new models started coming out. For the first time in a LONG time I saw a new luxury car that I'd buy in a heartbeat if I had the money and I never get tired of looking at them, they're beautiful and they happen to be Caddies.

B. The cars reliability, because it doesn't matter how pimp your ride is if it's in the shop for half the time you own it. Caddy definitly looks like it's built with much higher quality now and my opinion of the German luxury brands are and always have been pretty bad in this department. Caddy used to be pure shit, much worse than the German cars, so if I had the money I wouldn't have purchased any of the luxury cars available a few years ago, except maybe a Mark 8. Now it'd be a Caddy and nothing but a Caddy. Especially a CTS, preferably the V series.

C.The price, which Caddy certainly gives a bargain with. Pure luxury and great looks, for the best price you can get, anywhere. Now thats what I like.

For imports, my main hesitation about buying one is that there aren't many categories of vehicles here in America where you can't find a domestic vehicle to serve your needs reliably. For a small gas sipping car, you could get a Saturn ION or a Ford focus, for a midsize you could get a Saturn L series or a Malibu, (as much as I dislike the Malibu image), for a fullsize you could go with a Mercury Grand Marquis or Crown Victoria. For mid and fullsize luxury look no further than Caddy, Buick or Lincoln. For a sports car on the cheap side, the Mustang, on the more expensive side, the Vette, on the supercar side, the Saleen S7 or the Ford GT, or even if you want to be a little blasphemous, a 427TT LPE Vette. I just don't have much enthusiasm for imports, I never have and probably never will, they just don't excite me. Thats just the way I am, some people are die hard import fans, swear by them and talk about them, but I don't. There are very few import cars that catch my eye and most of them are exotics, like Lambos or Ferraris.

An import I would buy for certain? A Mazda B-series truck, if I were in the market for a small truck. Why? Because I LOATHE Tacomas, can't stand the new Plastic Fantastic Nissans and the Ford Ranger is a more expensive B-series truck, so I'd just buy a Mazda and get the same for cheaper. This is the only category I can think of off hand where domestics still fall short.

I remember a few posts back that I kindly suggested to you the same exact thing. It wasn't put exactly that way but I thought that you would get the point, but no you have to trail on about how good imports are and how shitty General Motors compares.
At least your reading comprehension isn't down the shitter......... You are basically hearing the unbiased opinions and experiences of someone who has been competitvely driving for about 10 years now and has worked in the motor industry before.

If you can't handle the fact that I think GM are rubbish, then stay the fuck out of this thread.

I have driven many American cars- Mustangs (Almost every damned version thinkable), Corvettes, Chryslers (PRobably every one from the last 5 years), Cadillac CTS (I considered buying one) and Seville STS. There is also a Mercury Marauder, Ford Crown Vic Police cruiser, Chevy Tahoe and SIlverado etc........Basically plenty of them, most of them were even in the United States.
And none of those that I have driven are as good as an Accord, 3 series or 406 Peugeot.

Look, I'm not even sure what you guys are criticising when you are stabbing at the quality of Bimmers and Mercs. The JD Power US surveys are Rubbish. FACT: In the 1999 JD Power Survey the Volkswagen Jetta got marked down because the cup holder wasn't big enough You call that a reliable survey???? Or the fact that all it takes is one out of place warning light and average-Joe-USA ends up bitching about the fucking thing and tells all his friends it's rubbish.

justacruiser your last post is a well balanced opinion, but you'd honestly take a Ion over a Civic, a Live rear axle over double wishbone suspension??? Or a Grand Marquis over a Maxima A Ladder frame over a proper chassis??? Your choice, but a little :screwy: IMHO.

By the way gonenuts, I saw your little snipe and your childish PM, anymore of that crap and you're gone. Sheeit, you're lucky I'm such a fair moderator.

Jimster: every person has an opinion. From now on lets respect each others opinion and stop playing childish games.

Fair enough.


Thread closed :)