Theological debate.

I have deemed it neccesary to close 4 threads in this forum for breach of the user guidelines.All of them had a common theme,and all of them could have been interesting exchanges of beliefs,and who knows,some of us could have come away with a broader understanding of the different ways in which others think.

Instead,all of the threads turned to nonsense and e-thuggery.

This forum used to be one of AF's premier boards for the more thoughtful auto enthusiast. Such a shame to see it become a shouting-room for people who think that ridicule,volume and vitriol are adequate substitutes for logic and listening.

If anyone wishes to discuss matters of religion further,please feel free to start afresh.BE WARNED,however,that if any flaming occurs from this point onwards,the perpetrator will be suspended for at least a week,possibly longer if the mod forum considers it appropriate.The user guidelines are here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/guidelines.html) if you need to refresh your memories.

Let's please keep this board to a more tolerant and adult level.

Here's some questions I'm still interested in hearing replies/answered to.
MBTN - I will add to that. What the hell happened between the old and new testaments? Old testament = people being killed and sacrificed and God raining down punishment and plagues.

Then there's the New Testament where he's all lovey dovey "I'll forgive you no matter what"

And don't try to feed me the BS line - "God realised it wasn't working so decided to change". That is admitting fallability on a so called "perfect" God's part.
Damn right MBTN. I don't think God created Hell - but he ALLOWED it to be created. Why would he allow that when he supposedly loves us all so much?

1. Porn creates serial killers, or serial killers view porn? It's the same argument as Asians are bad drivers VS bad drivers are commonly Asian. See the HUGE and IMPORTANT difference in the statements?

2. "God Fearing" You're supposed to be afraid of him exactly WHY?

:confused:

Agreed. However, I doubt it's going to be as smooth as hoped, the general level of intelligence and substance to topics may increase just that little bit.

Keep up the good work. ^_^

Edit: This refers to Naki's post... damn you oz, got there just before me...

I would like this one answered please. Where did the universe come from?

I can take one of the questions. I don't want to take all of them unless they go too long without being answered by others.

Hell.
Hell was created by God for Satan(Lucifer) and his followers. He created heaven for his followers. That may seem cruel but God does tell us in the Bible.(I know you guys hate it when we bring the Bible into it but there really isn't much choice on this subject)
Sin cannot enter into Heaven. If sin cannot enter into heaven then where should it(the people who sin)enter? That's not to say that as a Christian we don't sin. "All sin and fall short". But we have accept Christ as our Savior(or representative if you will) before God. Does that give us a liscense to sin and get away with it? No. (That's a different subject though)

Why does God send us to Hell if he supposedly loves us so much?

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say "yes" or the power to say "no," the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

A bit long I admit but hopefully that helps.

I will try and answer to the best of my knowledge any other follow up questions on this.

I won't be on the rest of the day however because I have a meeting on the other side of the state with a few clients. I'll check back tomorrow.

Later.

I would like this one answered please. Where did the universe come from?
Please, we did that a million times.

I can do a "right back at you" and say where did god come from? Or: where did god get all the materials to make the universe?

And one more time!

"You are close minded to indisputible evidence if it contradicts anything in the Bible. Carbon dating, dinosaurs, meteorites from space containing primitive bacteria the list goes on. All proven and 100% valid. Bring this to the table and it's merely "god testing us".

Crapmaster4000 does it best. He says thing like alcohol and homosexuality is wrong. Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Wine contains alcohol. A contradiction no? I think he mentioned something like god destroying the city of Sodom (I appoligize if I got the name wrong) because of the homosexual sinners. Then why oh why, if we are all his children, would he destroy his own children that he created? Heck it's been said multiple times he's a vengeful and jealous god. Those are indisputible flaws found in a supposedly flawless, perfect if you will, being.

"6: 'You shall not murder."

Sounds to me that's exactly what god does when he gets angry.

Why even create us if we are going to sin and be sent to Hell? Why would such a perfect being, who created EVERYTHING, create a Hell. A terrible place where all the sinners go. Why create man and let him sin and send him to eternal damnation? That is undeniably evil in nature. Why give him the free will and ability to think when there is the chance that his thought will be wrong, causing him to suffer eternally in Hell because he has sinned in his thoughts? Why create a child and test him to the point where he will sin, resulting in being sent to hell?

It's not right.

Final thought:
When science at this point in time enables us to grow a human being in a lab (morally I think this is wrong but that's another story), why would there be a god? Man creates man."

That came from the other thread.

Thanks for the time to answer that Q, DGB454. As previously stated, I am not here to be argumentative, and I think that is the best explanation I've heard to date.

I have deemed it neccesary to close 4 threads in this forum for breach of the user guidelines.All of them had a common theme,and all of them could have been interesting exchanges of beliefs,and who knows,some of us could have come away with a broader understanding of the different ways in which others think.

Instead,all of the threads turned to nonsense and e-thuggery.

This forum used to be one of AF's premier boards for the more thoughtful auto enthusiast. Such a shame to see it become a shouting-room for people who think that ridicule,volume and vitriol are adequate substitutes for logic and listening.

If anyone wishes to discuss matters of religion further,please feel free to start afresh.BE WARNED,however,that if any flaming occurs from this point onwards,the perpetrator will be suspended for at least a week,possibly longer if the mod forum considers it appropriate.The user guidelines are here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/guidelines.html) if you need to refresh your memories.

Let's please keep this board to a more tolerant and adult level.
Ok now just to make sure nobody gets banned, I have a couple questions to ask. How long will you let the theological thread go on if it gets pretty popular? How mad do you think people were getting? What really gets you mad about these threads? What makes people so interested in them? And I have a couple other questions I forgot.

Im sorry to everyone that ive offended in the past couple days. I just wanted to discuss the differences between christians and athiests, thats really it. But people are very passionate about these things and they get a little out of control and I just want to apoligize to everybody ive offended.

Dón't worry about apologising. Read and understand Naki's message and on with the debate! :D

Please, we did that a million times.

I can do a "right back at you" and say where did god come from? Or: where did god get all the materials to make the universe?

Answering a question with a question still isn't an answer.

However, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.
Where did God come from?

He didn't. We think in terms of beginning and ending. The reason we do is because (IMO) God created time (see Genisis). In the realm of time everything naturally has to have a beginning and everything has to have an ending. Time is a place where we exist but he exist outside that restriction. It's a hard concept to grasp because we have a hard time looking beyond what we see as the natural order of things(Natural laws).
I have a hard time seeing it as well because I think in terms of beginnings and endings as well. Where did God come from? He always was. Confusing no?

If you take God completly out of the picture and look at the universe to try and figure out how it all began then to me that's just as confusing.
The reason is because naturally everything we know has a beginning and an end. How then can the universe always just have existed? If it did then it is in itself a type of God. A creator. All life sprang up from it. If it didn't always exist then where did it come from?

Where did God get the materials to make the universe? God is the creator. He has the ability to create matter. His nature is to create.
If he is God then there is no limitation to his ability. That's what a God is.

And one more time!

"You are close minded to indisputible evidence if it contradicts anything in the Bible. Carbon dating, dinosaurs, meteorites from space containing primitive bacteria the list goes on. All proven and 100% valid. Bring this to the table and it's merely "god testing us".

I'm not at all closed minded to those things at all. I don't see any evidence as to where any of those things contradict the Bible.
I think carbon dating is a very usefull tool to determine the age of things up to a point. I do know that it has been wrong and has a certain margin of error though. I believe dinosaurs existed.
I have never heard of these meteorites you are talking about though. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm just saying I never heard of them. Also if they do exist I can't see where they contradict the Bible.



Crapmaster4000 does it best. He says thing like alcohol and homosexuality is wrong. Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Wine contains alcohol. A contradiction no? I think he mentioned something like god destroying the city of Sodom (I appoligize if I got the name wrong) because of the homosexual sinners. Then why oh why, if we are all his children, would he destroy his own children that he created? Heck it's been said multiple times he's a vengeful and jealous god. Those are indisputible flaws found in a supposedly flawless, perfect if you will, being.

"6: 'You shall not murder."

Sounds to me that's exactly what god does when he gets angry.

Why even create us if we are going to sin and be sent to Hell? Why would such a perfect being, who created EVERYTHING, create a Hell. A terrible place where all the sinners go. Why create man and let him sin and send him to eternal damnation? That is undeniably evil in nature. Why give him the free will and ability to think when there is the chance that his thought will be wrong, causing him to suffer eternally in Hell because he has sinned in his thoughts? Why create a child and test him to the point where he will sin, resulting in being sent to hell?

It's not right.

See my post above on hell.


Final thought:
When science at this point in time enables us to grow a human being in a lab (morally I think this is wrong but that's another story), why would there be a god? Man creates man."

That came from the other thread.

I can't say I think that's wrong to create a human in a lab. I see nothing morally wrong with that unless it cost another human being his or her life.

Man doesn't create man. Man is given the ability to multiply by God.(IMO)

In response to the old testament and new testament question... for those interested in an answer.

The current contents and format of the book we call the Bible has actually varied quite a bit during history in its content and translation. The old testament effectively contains the history of the Israelites and was probably written around 1400-400 BC. The New Testament was written by the disciples of Jesus around 50 AD or so - reflecting changes in values, ethics and philosophies compared to when the Old Testament was put together. Literary-wise it's like comparing Shakespeare to Tarantino in terms of timing.

There are also several books called the Apocrypha which are not included in the current version of the Bible including Dragon, Maccabees 1&2, Judith amoug others. These are the books 'between the Testaments' - I think there are 13 of them.

It also has to be noted that we don't have any of the original hebrew texts available and there were times in history that the attempted translation of the bible particularly into English resulted in persecution and punishment.

The final thing to remember is zeitgeist - consider that the Old Testament was written by an enslaved people who gained for their freedom, settled in a place where their neighbours were unfriendly, were without laws or governance and needed structure, unswerving compliance to maintain order and survival. Whatever your feelings about the true source of the gospel, it's likely that the scribes were influenced.

The later New Testament was written by disciples who were not part of the legislative and regulatory structure and were effectively 'rebels.' They also came from varying walks of life rather than being scholars or pharisees...

Are you a christian?

How long will you let the theological thread go on if it gets pretty popular? How mad do you think people were getting? What really gets you mad about these threads? What makes people so interested in them? And I have a couple other questions I forgot.

1/the thread can run its full natural course if conducted within the guidelines of the AF forums.People don't appear to be getting genuinely angry,the last few posts in the 4 threads had morphed into duplicate discussions between people who were determined to be outraged for the sake of their own egos.This a philosophy forum,for sharing the potential of your mind.It is not a soapbox for fundamentalist bores to lay down the law about what is and isn't the truth.

People seem to think that just because they are posting anonymously to the debate,that the unwritten rules of common courtesy are a waste of effort.I'm here as a moderator to argue that they are not.If you are looking for a place to rant,try Stress Release.This board is intended to be a fraction smarter than that, and should be treated with the same courtesy and respect as a face to face discussion.

I feel I need to clear something up a bit. This has come up several times and is a common mis conception about the Bible.

"The Bible has been transtated so many times there has to be mistakes in it."




With regards to the Old Testament, the Jewish copyists of the Hebrew Scriptures had to follow strict rules: Each copy had to be written in a certain number of columns of 30 letters width and with a certain number of lines to each column. Each copy had to be made from a certified original. Every letter was copied one at a time from the original. They could not even write one letter from memory. The distance between each letter was measured by a single hair or thread. Every letter on every page and book was counted against the original. The number of times each letter occured in the book was counted and compared against the original. If one of these rules (and many others) were broken, the entire copy was destroyed.
What about the New Testament you ask? There are two important factors involved in determining the reliability of a historical document: The number of manuscript copies still around and, the time between when it was first written and the oldest copy still in existence. Let's compare the New Testament with some other writings of olden days. The New Testament was written over a time period of 60 years. We have over 24,000 copies and some of the copies we have are only 25 years removed from the originals! Ceasars work, The Gallic Wars, was written over a 56 year period. We have 10 copies, the closest to the original is 1,000 years removed. We have 643 copies of Homer's Iliad and there is a 500 year span between the original and oldest existing copy. So you see, no other work comes close to the New Testament. So why do so many put down the Bible as being inaccurate and untrustworthy?

The N.I.V. publishers of the for example went through painstaking measures to ensure that it's translation was as close to the original manuscripts as humanly possible. They even compaired what they had copied from the original manuscripts with the Dead Sea Scrolls and found no innacuracies.:2cents:

Rep - all accurate to the best of my knowledge historically. Doesn't explain why the MASSIVE shift in mentality, considering the asme 'God' was supposedly responsible for both works.

I can't get into that right now due to time restraints. I promise I will answer as soon as I can get a few more minutes though.

I'm sorry but I have to go back to this entire unvierse thing. Yeah I did answer a question with a question and it's entirely valid. You believe god was just there and made everything. Well that's fine for you but not me. I don't believe in something for nothing. God exists and just makes everything. How can you exist where there is nothing to exist in? Makes sense no? As far as time goes, that's another debate (;)) Time is a measurement just like anything else. We do it based on the sun. What about a planet that doesn't see light? How could we go about measuring time there? It would certainly be different. Time exists differently in different places because it's just a measurment and a concept. It doesn't exist. (uh oh, I just started a totally different debate :D) So as far as the universe being made, it never was made. It's always been and always will be. I know it sounds contradictory to me saying "something for nothing". Then again maybe it's the same thing as you saying god always has been, but I don't believe in god which is why I have my own explaination. :)

As far as my long post it was mostly for Crapmaster4000 because he seems to think certain things (drinking and homosexuality) are wrong. And I pointed out that some of these wrong things are right in the bible contradicting his beliefs. Of course he had to go along and call me a liberal democrat spewing bullshit or something instead of answering my perfectly valid question. ;) Which BTW I am still waiting on. :)

I'm not at all closed minded to those things at all. I don't see any evidence as to where any of those things contradict the Bible.
I think carbon dating is a very usefull tool to determine the age of things up to a point. I do know that it has been wrong and has a certain margin of error though. I believe dinosaurs existed.
I have never heard of these meteorites you are talking about though. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm just saying I never heard of them. Also if they do exist I can't see where they contradict the Bible.
Well the dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible at all, and it supposedly documents the history of the earth from the beginning. ;)

The meteors and other space rock (samples from Mars I think were found to contain bacteria also. It was big news maybe 1-2 years ago, can't exactly remember but if you look you'll find it). This means there is definately life on other planets in the universe.




See my post above on hell.

Yup, saw that, no problem with your reasoning.


I can't say I think that's wrong to create a human in a lab. I see nothing morally wrong with that unless it cost another human being his or her life.

Man doesn't create man. Man is given the ability to multiply by God.(IMO)

Don't agree with that. If a scientists can LITERALLY create another human in a lab, NOT born of parents then they are not mutiplying via sex. They are multiplying by creation. And since we can pretty much do this today (although we aren't) then we are clearly the creator.

Here's another one for crapmaster4000. It's going to sound silly, but it's perfectly valid. :)

Can't have sex until you're married. OK fine. WHAT IF you and a female are the last two people on Earth and you're not married? Silly question? Yes! :lol: but it has a point. You're not married so therefore you cannot have sex. There is no priest around and he can't get you married. SO what do you do? Do you screw over all man kind and not reproduce or do you hit that mutliple times? :biggrin: Once again I admit it's silly but it's valid! If your answer is "If it's to save man kind then..." you'd be contradicting yourself. The correct answer for you would be to end the human race. Do you think that's right?

I'm sorry but I have to go back to this entire unvierse thing. Yeah I did answer a question with a question and it's entirely valid.

Well I’m sorry you feel that way because I am just going to have to stop answering your questions. You fail to understand and abide by the very basic concepts of debating. I'm apologize if that sounds like I'm being an a$$ about this but it seems to me you really aren't looking for any answers.


You believe god was just there and made everything. Well that's fine for you but not me. I don't believe in something for nothing. God exists and just makes everything. How can you exist where there is nothing to exist in? Makes sense no?
As far as time goes, that's another debate ( ) Time is a measurement just like anything else. We do it based on the sun. What about a planet that doesn't see light? How could we go about measuring time there? It would certainly be different. Time exists differently in different places because it's just a measurment and a concept. It doesn't exist. (uh oh, I just started a totally different debate ) So as far as the universe being made, it never was made. It's always been and always will be. I know it sounds contradictory to me saying "something for nothing". Then again maybe it's the same thing as you saying god always has been, but I don't believe in god which is why I have my own explaination.



Ok I lied…..I will go into this and then I will stop answering your questions.

I don’t get you…you argue against a God because he can’t possibly exist without being created yet you believe in a universe that exists without being created.

Contradictory is an understatement to say the least.

Believe if you want that the universe always existed but don’t argue against that same belief when it’s attached to something else.



As far as my long post it was mostly for Crapmaster4000 because he seems to think certain things (drinking and homosexuality) are wrong. And I pointed out that some of these wrong things are right in the bible contradicting his beliefs. Of course he had to go along and call me a liberal democrat spewing bullshit or something instead of answering my perfectly valid question. Which BTW I am still waiting on.



Crapmaster can debate for himself but I have to say that anything you pointed out are certainly not right in the Bible contradicting his beliefs.

In response to a couple of posts:

1. Christian - depends on the definition. If you consider it someone who believes in the religion of Christ - then no. If you consider it means that I show the qualities associated with Christ's teachings then I hesitate to answer yes because so many folk have adorned themselves with the term who have nothing to do with the moral, ethic or value set that I challenge myself to adhere to.

I prefer to my value set as humanistic - I've spent time trying to understanding a number of belief systems in constructing my own - hence the knowledge of the history of the Bible.

2. I don't think I ever said that the Bible has 'mistakes' in it. My earlier post was noting the historical sources of the various books of the Bible and the contexts in which they were compiled and by whom. I think the apparent contradictions have more to do with the respective author's interpretation of how they transcribed the 'word of god' - the language I use is influenced by my education, social groups, ethical base and context. If you consider the period over which the Bible was compiled and the number of authors of the various books then I consider that the small number of contradictions to be amazing in itself. As for the debate about sexuality and alcohol - it comes down to your own moral and ethical values plus to the extent to whether you consider the Bible to be taken as a literal or literary foundation.

Fundamentally, I've considered that the Book is a set of teachings to be taken in its entirety and the individual needs to construct their own moral and ethical values based on how they interpret the works in their own life and path. My own belief is that how one lives up to the challenges of the belief set is more important than debating the differences.

Finally, I don't ever want to deny someone their faith - it's something that I consider to be extremely important to an individual. Debating their beliefs and constantly challenging them is part of the human condition and an expression of belief.

...I have to say that anything you pointed out are certainly not right in the Bible contradicting his beliefs.

Huh? :eek7:

:iceslolan Yes I did contradict myself big time. Oopsy!

But anyway... it seems as though NO ONE can prove the start of the universe. Not yet anyway. And no the Bible doesn't either.

On to another topic!
"God created the universe. blah blah blah and eventually on the 7th day he rested." Quite vague don't you think?

And how long were those first 3 days if there was no sun until the 4th?

Want to know why I don't believe in god anymore?

The same people who told us god existed (and the same who say 'leave it at that!') are the same ones who said the Earth was flat. The same ones who said the Earth is the center of the universe. The same ones who tried to stop people like Galilleo et cetera. :nono: My question is: WHY?

Oops, sorry to be a dick :lol: but I got another thing about Hell...

It was created for Lucifer. Fair enough, but where did Lucifer come from?

"Rep - all accurate to the best of my knowledge historically. Doesn't explain why the MASSIVE shift in mentality, considering the same 'God' was supposedly responsible for both works."


Hopefully I can do this some justice.

God has a timeline set up that he won't stray from.(IMO) There is a flow to the Bible from the beginning to the end. There is a common thread throughout the Bible that ties it all together. That thread is Christ. In the old testament there are many passages that talk about the comming of Christ and the comming of the time of grace.


One example.

Isaiah 53
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.


In the new testament there are several passages that talk about this also. Here is one example.

1Pet. 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things



During the time of the old testament the followers of God lived under the law. Things had to be done a certain way and at a certain time. This was a huge burden to the early God fearing people. People of God looked forward to that time of grace. Unfortunatly it was a long time comming but I beleive it was necessary. They had to be ready to get out from under the laws that they lived under. It was Gods timing not ours.

Christ comes and abolishes the law.

When Christ came and finished the work that was set up for him to do the old law was abolished. The people of God now lived under grace. Sacrifices along with a number of other traditions were ended . There was no longer any need for them because Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for everyone.

I know I probably left out a lot but there is a reason for the massive shift in mentality. The reason is that Jesus came and fulfilled the law of the old testament. It was part of God's timeline. The way it happened as well as the time it happened was planned from the beginning.

I don't know if that helped or hurt. It may not have even totally answered the question. I hope it did though.

Later

Oops, sorry to be a dick :lol: but I got another thing about Hell...

It was created for Lucifer. Fair enough, but where did Lucifer come from?

Lucifer was actually one of the angels. At one time he was the "head" angel. God gave him a lot of power and he became arrogant and proud of all the power he had. He started thinking that he was greater than God and tried to overthrow Him.

Huh? :eek7:

:iceslolan Yes I did contradict myself big time. Oopsy!

But anyway... it seems as though NO ONE can prove the start of the universe. Not yet anyway. And no the Bible doesn't either.

On to another topic!
"God created the universe. blah blah blah and eventually on the 7th day he rested." Quite vague don't you think?

And how long were those first 3 days if there was no sun until the 4th?

Want to know why I don't believe in god anymore?

The same people who told us god existed (and the same who say 'leave it at that!') are the same ones who said the Earth was flat. The same ones who said the Earth is the center of the universe. The same ones who tried to stop people like Galilleo et cetera. :nono: My question is: WHY?

I'll work on this one tomorrow. Time for me to get a work out.

In situations where people have no control over a situation or where they do not understand it they turn to God. God is faith, that's all. My family have believed in God for the longest, but why was my little brother born with cancer? Does he deserve such torture? What the hell did he do? Nothing. If God is so powerful, if he looks after the good so much, why does he let an innocent child get sick like that? My family are deep believers in God. So where the hell was he?

Its been mentioned about 'primitive bacteria in asteroids' or some such thing. Please stop. This is false. No extraterrestrial life has been identified. The only thing found so far are the components of bacteria not bacteria itself. Its the equivelent of finding a fiew pieces of silicon and copper and claiming you've discovered a computer.

Ok. Intejection over.

Both God and the universe are beyond out understanding. If the universe is infinate, then by definition everything you can imagine and a infinate number of ones you cannot must exist in it. As long as it fits into the "laws" of the universe, it mush exist. I also point out that we do not know what those laws are in total. Which also mean we don't know how much we don't know. Our experience is tiny. Our exploration is virtually non existent. Our understanding is infintesimile.

I cannot offer proof for the existance of God that cannot also be used as proof that God does not exist.

Now the question I have, is this debate about the existance of a higher power of theology? They are not the same thing.

In situations where people have no control over a situation or where they do not understand it they turn to God. God is faith, that's all. My family have believed in God for the longest, but why was my little brother born with cancer? Does he deserve such torture? What the hell did he do? Nothing. If God is so powerful, if he looks after the good so much, why does he let an innocent child get sick like that? My family are deep believers in God. So where the hell was he?
First off I am truely sorry your little brother and your family have to go through that.

I don't believe God causes cancer or any other disease. I do beleive he allows it to happen. There are natural laws that govern the world we live in that he originally set up. Things happen (like desease) in the world that are part of the natural world. God can step in and change the natural laws and he does from time to time but for the most part he let's things run the way they are suppose to run.(IMO)

I don't know if that helps explain why sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things sometimes happen to bad people but I hope it does.

Its been mentioned about 'primitive bacteria in asteroids' or some such thing. Please stop. This is false. No extraterrestrial life has been identified. The only thing found so far are the components of bacteria not bacteria itself. Its the equivelent of finding a fiew pieces of silicon and copper and claiming you've discovered a computer.

Is it now? :grinno: To deny that this very large universe contains no life except us is absolutely ludicrous. :lol2:

As for god intervening with natrure...
So why bother stepping in at all if he steps in only when he feels like it?

The point here is that innocent beings are subject to suffering/death whatever. Kind of like infants that die right after birth. And for people to say that god doesn't let the innocent suffer/die whatever well then that explains everything doesn't it? God won't let the innocent suffer yet the innocent suffer? Kind of sounds like there is no such thing as god when the fact is laid out.

As far as asking people if they believe in god, I don't want to hear any explainations of the bible or challenges to science or antyhing of that nature. The best answer I ever heard was the shortest:

WHY NOT?

That's all I wanted to hear. :)

But when you ask why I don't believe, I'll use facts to explain it. Comprendo?

Is it now? :grinno: To deny that this very large universe contains no life except us is absolutely ludicrous. :lol2:

As for god intervening with natrure...
So why bother stepping in at all if he steps in only when he feels like it?

The point here is that innocent beings are subject to suffering/death whatever. Kind of like infants that die right after birth. And for people to say that god doesn't let the innocent suffer/die whatever well then that explains everything doesn't it? God won't let the innocent suffer yet the innocent suffer? Kind of sounds like there is no such thing as god when the fact is laid out.

As far as asking people if they believe in god, I don't want to hear any explainations of the bible or challenges to science or antyhing of that nature. The best answer I ever heard was the shortest:

WHY NOT?

That's all I wanted to hear. :)

But when you ask why I don't believe, I'll use facts to explain it. Comprendo?


I'll buy that there is other life in the universe other than that here on earth. I just haven't seen it yet. In fact I don't recall anyone having any proof of it yet. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That just means no one can prove it...Hmmmm.....sounds farmiliar doesn't it?


No one said God doesn't let innocent people suffer and die. The fact of life on earth is that it happens. If God put up a shield over everyone who believed in him and only let the bad people suffer then where is the free will? Everyone would turn to God only because nothing bad would happen to them.

I never challenged science when explaining about God. Science is just a tool to explain things that God has set up. It's a way for us to comprehend what he created.

I believe you hit the nail right on the head when you said "I don't want to hear any explainations of the bible. " I really believe you don't. But that's OK.

There are to many contradictions in the Bible .

It seems like that I know, but I am a Christian and take pride in it. I believe whole heartidly that there is a GOD and heaven. One day when I'm in heaven I'll know all the mysteries of the bible and they will make sense without contradictions. Most people under these forums are somewhat interested in being religious. If you (directed to anyone) ever decide to give your life to Jesus, it will be your greatest accomplishement of your life and you'll know it.

Not believing in an interventionist God doesn't preclude in having faith in God.


No-one ever said the world was a fair and just place. That's the world we live in.

You can accept fate or you can believe in choice.

I personally believe that there is no fate, there are circumstances, events and decisions that are randomly connected but ultimately we all possess the tools of our destiny. How you choose to use that gift is what defines you.

Is it now? :grinno: To deny that this very large universe contains no life except us is absolutely ludicrous. :lol2:



Who said their was no other life in the universe? Read again little one. I said stop claiming that life was found when it has not. There is no proof as of yet that life exists outside our planet.



As for god intervening with natrure...
So why bother stepping in at all if he steps in only when he feels like it?

The point here is that innocent beings are subject to suffering/death whatever. Kind of like infants that die right after birth. And for people to say that god doesn't let the innocent suffer/die whatever well then that explains everything doesn't it? God won't let the innocent suffer yet the innocent suffer? Kind of sounds like there is no such thing as god when the fact is laid out.

As far as asking people if they believe in god, I don't want to hear any explainations of the bible or challenges to science or antyhing of that nature. The best answer I ever heard was the shortest:

WHY NOT?

That's all I wanted to hear. :)

But when you ask why I don't believe, I'll use facts to explain it. Comprendo?

You need a serious lesson on the difference between facts, theory and conjecture. :disappoin

I just want to add in a little bit of my own 2 cents, I'm going to try and do my best not to intoduce any new questions and also do my best not to downplay anyone's beliefs. For those of you that don't know I'm a Buddhist. The reason I am is because like someone stated earlier "life is suffering" yes it is, and there is no denying that people die plants die someday our sun will die. everything is impermenant and not one thing does not undergo changes. Buddhist's catch a lot of crap for only beliving "what they want to" when the truth is we only belive what it is that we know for ourselves to be the truth. for some that may be the existance of God for some the existance of many Gods and for some (such as myself) no God at all. it's not that I am denying that a God or Gods exist it is that from all that I know to be the truth I have never encountered that which I can call a God. There are many things that I find to be the truth and therefore for me they exist, they may or may not for others depending on your experiances in life. The only thing I really want to say is that you can quote passages and scripture all day and those who want to or have good reason to believe will and those who don't will not EVER.

We are told as Buddhist's "Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, we are determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctorine, theory, or ideology, even buddhist ones. Buddhist teachings are guiding means to help us learn to look deeply and to develop our understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight kill or die for." This is known as the first mindfullness training and as it says we are to experiance life for our life not how others say our life is or is supposed to be and that our thoughts and feelings our not to be forced on others or to be fought over.

I'm not saying that Buddhism is this great end all and be all. What I am saying is that it is our responsibility to ourselfs to understand life through our experiance not through rules and regulations and theories of others. If you belive in a God because you have experianced God that is excellent and if you don't because you have not that is just as wonderful however if you "believe" in a God because your parents say it's right or your friends say it's right or your community says it's right you are not only harming yourself but you are harming everyone.

Peace to all beings living, dead, and those who have yet to come in to being. may you all prosper and enjoy your life to the fullest. -Justin

Man that was long, sorry :)

..
I'm not saying that Buddhism is this great end all and be all. What I am saying is that it is our responsibility to ourselfs to understand life through our experiance not through rules and regulations and theories of others. If you belive in a God because you have experianced God that is excellent and if you don't because you have not that is just as wonderful however if you "believe" in a God because your parents say it's right or your friends say it's right or your community says it's right you are not only harming yourself but you are harming everyone.

Peace to all beings living, dead, and those who have yet to come in to being. may you all prosper and enjoy your life to the fullest. -Justin

Man that was long, sorry :)

I am not familiar at all with Buddhism, but if what you've stated is accurate then that's the closest I'll ever come to agreeing with a religion.

One of my 'disagreements' with many of the organized religions is the way things are dictated - that you are told to "have faith", and if you don't, it's because you are not trying hard enough to believe.

I think, if something is 'truth', that it will be self-evident, or at least, logical.

Ehh...I don't know how to articulate it, really, but I guess my beliefs and values are based on what's evident to ME, not what someone tells me. I currently identify as a 'secular humanist', which essentially means 'aetheist person who nevertheless has moral views and values, and abides by the Golden Rule, not because they are being watched from above, trying to impress someone, but because it's what they truly believe is RIGHT.'

This is the most accurate discription of Buddhism that I could give. I only know very little and haven't studied it for any great amount of time. However I have read qutie a bit about it and have done my best to understand it. Buddhism has been hailed by some as the greatest of all religious ideas such as

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity" Albert Einstein

It is largely based on experiance with very little input from your teacher, especially in the case of Zen Buddhism where it is required that you ask a question that interests you and your teacher suggest (not tells) what you should study, meditate, etc. on or about. I find it highly interesting and that's why I am a Buddhist. If you are at all interested in Buddhism a very good book to pick up would be "The Heart of the Buddha's teachings" By Thich Nhat Hanh he is an excellent writter and one of the world's leading officials on Buddhism. Oh and as a final note technically Buddhism is not a religion it is a philosophy because there is no worship of deities, and no set ideologies. However, it does come very close ;) thanks for the comments -Justin

"Truth is one- the Sages speak of it by many names"

Jesus,Allah,Buddha,etc....

Read Joseph Campbell if you ever get a chance. His theory is that all the major schools of thought exhibit fundamentally similar elements/metaphors. These metaphors need not be defined LITERALLY, as is common in most religions. This discrepancies between literal interpretations is usually the source of abrasion between people of different religions.

By the way, Firebird- have you read any of the Taoist texts yet? Buddhism and Taoism reached me in a manner Christianity never quite could. :)

Ooops! I've been busy the past few days and haven't been here in a bit. I'll come back later tonight though. :)

By the way, Firebird- have you read any of the Taoist texts yet? Buddhism and Taoism reached me in a manner Christianity never quite could.

In truth the only taoist book I ever read was a "pocket tao reader" or something to that effect that my cousin had (when he found Taoism cool for like 2 weeks) He's a very lost person scrambbing to make since of the world. It's rather sad, I try my best to help him, but he never listens to me anyway, but that's another story. And yes you are very correct many major religions/philosophies have many many things in common. There is a lot of proof that backs up the idea that Jesus actually was in the area and could have studied with the monks that where grandsons and granddaughters of the original monks that The Buddha taught. And that is why the Buddhist precepts and most of the philosophy are the same in Christianity (or at least very simmilar).

Oh and just as one final note, The Buddha (Sidhartha Guatauma) was not a God nor is he to be worshiped. In all truthfullness Buddha is a term which means "the enlightened one". It is possible for all living things, not just humans, to achive this state of "Buddhahood" because it is already in us. All we have to do is get rid of the "crap" (for lack of a better trem) that blocks it. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply this but when you paired his name with that of Jesus and Allah, I thought it was only right to point that out. ;)