frankeinstien lsvtec

Ok, I got a honda civic cx hatchback (not that it matters too much) and I'm aiming to eventualy get a 12 second run out of it.

I've already bought a B18C (Integra type R) head and had it ported and polished.
I've also bought an ls bottom, hence the frankeinstien.
Now I dont plan on adding turbo any time soon.

Question 1:
I want to safely get 240 HP out of this block. What do I have to do?

Question 2:
When joining the lx with the type r head, compression becomes higher (i think). Do I have to buy crower rods and valve train.

Question 3:
What are my transmission options for an application like this.

Thanx, in advance for all who respond.

So are you going to be adding a turbo to this 240hp pre-turbo block?
Would you want to spray nitrous to achieve the 240hp goal, or do you want it naturally?

Ok, I got a honda civic cx hatchback (not that it matters too much) and I'm aiming to eventualy get a 12 second run out of it.

I've already bought a B18C (Integra type R) head and had it ported and polished.
I've also bought an ls bottom, hence the frankeinstien.
Now I dont plan on adding turbo any time soon.

Question 1:
I want to safely get 240 HP out of this block. What do I have to do?

Question 2:
When joining the lx with the type r head, compression becomes higher (i think). Do I have to buy crower rods and valve train.

Question 3:
What are my transmission options for an application like this.

Thanx, in advance for all who respond.

just wondering, how did you happen to get your hands on a ITR head? how much did it cost you? how much was the port and polish? i'm just wondering because i plan on doing a crvtec eventually and i have heard that the ITR head is one of the best heads to use.

If it was all that great, Honda would have done it in the first place. Submitted for your approval, my thesis on why LS/VTEC is a bad idea.

What is LS/VTEC?
Why would Honda do that?
What is R/S?
Why a low R/S is bad for reliability
What is power, exactly, and how do Hondas make it?
B Series, by the numbers
How VTEC works, and why it lives at high RPMs
Why it doesn't all fit together


What is LS/VTEC?


A quick tutorial for anyone who doesn't already know.

LS/VTEC is using a B18A or B18B block (referred to as an LS block, even though it was found in the RS, LS, and GS) and mating it with any of the DOHC VTEC heads- the B16A, B17A, or B18C. The principle is to use the larger displacement of the LS block (READ: higher torque) and mate it with the high end power of VTEC. I'm also sure you've heard of CR-VTEC, which is a very similar idea. It uses the B20Z block of the CR-V (NOT the B20A of the Prelude Si, for reasons that will become obvious later) to achieve the same effect, only on a grander scale. What you end up with is an engine commonly referred to as a "Frankenstein" setup, and it's all the rage these days.


Why would Honda do that?


So why in the world would Honda put us in such a situation- having to build these incredible motors all by ourselves? Why would they knowingly decrease displacement and torque in a car being manufactured to be faster than its lower-trimmed breathen?

Look at it, too, from a manufacturing standpoint- Honda is already making the higher displacement B18A and B blocks (blocks are identical, only difference was in the head), so why go to the extra time and expense of developing and manufacturing a separate block, especially if it will decrease output?

The answer is easy: R/S.


What is R/S?


R/S is the abbreviation for rod to stroke ratio. It is the ratio of the length of the connecting rod to the length of the piston stroke, or the distance the piston travels from the top to the bottom of its stroke. As the ratio gets lower, the amount of stress on engine internals increases exponentially, killing long-term reliability. The higher the number is, the slower the piston is traveling, killing power output.

The ideal R/S is 1.75:1 (Three cheers for the B16A, at a near-perfect 1.74:1!).


Why a low R/S is bad for reliability


A low R/S means the rod will be closer to a horizontal angle on its upstroke. This means that more of its force will be pushing the piston horizontally, rather than vertically. What does this mean for your engine? Two things.

1. There will be more stress on the sides and in the center of the rod, rather than on its ends, leaving the rod more vulnerable to breaking. Picture a straw. This is no special straw, just an ordinary drinking straw. Is it going to be easier to bend this straw by applying pressure onto its ends, or at its center? Now think of your poor connecting rods.

2. There will be more stress on your cylinder walls. Once again, the rod is pushing the piston at a more horizontal angle- right into your cylinder walls, rather than up and through them. The risk here is double: A. Putting that piston right through the cylinder wall. B. The cylinder wall will actually flex under the pressure, causing the shape to turn from a circle to an oval or oblong shape. This causes the loss of the seal created by the piston rings. What happens? A small amount of oil could slip past into the combustion chamber. Bad things happen from here: The oil gets combusted, leaving nasty carbon deposits in your combustion chamber and exhaust ports- not a good thing for flow or valve sealing.

It's also important to note that as the RPMs increase, so does the amount of stress on your engine's internals.


What is power, exactly, and how do Hondas make it?

Warning: Once you see this, you will never look at horsepower and torque readings the same again, especially after you think about it.

P= (TR)/5252

P= power, in horsepower
T= torque, measured in lb/ft
R= Engine speed, in RPMs

Therefore:

Horsepower= (torque x RPMs) / 5252

Try it- pull out a dyno and see what you get.

So from this, we can conclude that if we increase torque or engine speed, we will get more power, right?

Remember that, it's important...

Now how do Hondas make power? Our tiny little 1.6-1.8L engines aren't exactly oozing spare displacement and creating gobs of torque, are they? Hondas make power through revving, and revving high. So why does everyone place so much emphasis on creating torque? It's because all these bolt-ons you see advertised won't raise your redline, but they will increase torque. There's nothing wrong with squeezing every last ounce of torque out of your engine- you should. But trying to get torque from more displacement in a Honda is like trying to fill a swimming pool using a squirt gun. You'll never get enough for it to be useful.


B Series, by the numbers


Let's take a closer look at the B series engine blocks.

In the B18 blocks, Honda increases displacement by using a larger crank and increasing stroke (the B20Z also has a slightly larger bore, which is bad for reasons I won't go into here). This, of course, lowers the R/S, since the rod length remains (almost) the same.

B16A:
Rod length: 134 mm
Stroke: 77 mm
R/S: 1.74:1
Displacement: 1587.12 cc

B17A:
rod length: 131.87 mm
Stroke: 81.4 mm
R/S: 1.62:1
Displacement: 1677.81 cc

B18A-B:
Rod length: 137mm
Stroke: 89mm
R/S: 1.54:1
Displacement: 1834.47 cc

B18C:
Rod length: 137.9 mm
Stroke: 87.2 mm
R/S: 1.58:1
Displacement: 1797.36 cc

B20A (Older Prelude Si)
Rod length: 141.7-142.75 mm
Stroke: 95 mm
R/S: 1.49-1.50:1
Displacement: 1958.14-2056.03 cc

Now you see two things: Why Honda decreased the displacement from the B18A-B to the B18C, and why the B20A is widely regarded as a not-so-great engine. Honda decreased the displacement in the B18C by decreasing the stroke, improving the R/S. This allows the B18C to rev higher, and (Hey!) increase output.

Making sense? I bet you can see where this is going. But wait, there's plenty more...


How VTEC works, and why it lives at high RPMs


A quick crash course for anyone unfamiliar with VTEC:

VTEC stands for Variable Valve Timing and Electronic Lift Control. The premise is that at low RPMs and at idle, a less aggressive cam grind is necessary to prevent "loping." Ever hear a pro drag car staging up at the gates? Sounds like it's about to stall. It's because he's running aggressive camshafts, and since the cam is spinning more slowly at idle, the intake valve is still open after combustion has completed. That's what causes loping. At higher RPMs, a more aggressive grind is desirable. The idea is that you want to cram as much air and fuel mixture (A/F) into that combustion chamber as possible, so that when it's ignited you get as grandiose an explosion as possible. So what is good at low RPMs is bad for high RPMs. So what do you do?

If you're Honda, you invent VTEC. What VTEC does is simply to employ different cam grinds at different RPMs. A less aggressive grind at low RPMs for a smooth idle and low to mid range power, and a more aggressive grind up high to produce that high end pop. At a strategically placed "VTEC crossover point," the camshaft switches grind from the less aggressive to the more aggressive.

What determines this point? Hours and hours dyno testing and tuning. If it is set too low, the more aggressive grind will kick in early, bogging down the engine (think "loping" at 3500 RPM). Too high, and the engine is missing out on valuable time it could be spending with the VTEC engaged. So all those fools who spent on a VTEC timer running stock camshafts just so they could get their VTEC to kick in earlier- they're idiots. They just cost themselves a ton of midrange power. The stock crossover point is optimized for stock camshafts.

So when is a VTEC timer necessary? Easy- when you're no longer running stock camshafts.

If you want big power all motor, you go with one of the big players in the cam game- Toda Spec B and C, or Jun Stage 2 and 3, and you accept no substitutes. All (or at least 95%) of the 225+ all motor whp B18s are running these camshafts.

How does this relate to VTEC crossover point? Well, the VTEC grinds on these cams are so aggressive, that the VTEC point needs to be moved up- way up- usually to 6500-7000 RPM. These cams will also make power to 9500+ RPM (READ: Built motor). Run these in conjunction with high compression pistons (at least 10.5:1), and you'll have yourself an all motor wonder. And this, friends, is where torque in Hondas comes from.

Why it doesn't all fit together
So here's what we've learned:


The LS/VTEC suffers from a bad R/S, due to the fact that it utilizes an LS block with a R/S of 1.54:1.
A bad R/S is bad for the engine, especially at high RPMs
Hondas make power through revving, and high power through revving higher, high compression, and aggressive camshafts

Because of its R/S ratio, it is not recommended that you rev an LS/VTEC past 6750 RPM on stock internals- the redline of a stock B18A-B. With a fairly built bottom end, it is still not recommended that you rev an LS/VTEC past 7800 RPM.

As we just discussed, in order to get any considerable power out of an engine, aggressive camshafts are a must. In order to get any benefit from aggressive camshafts, the ability to rev the engine high is a necessity. What good is VTEC if you can only use it for the top 1000 RPM of your powerband?

LS/VTEC is a fad, and I predict that it will be all but a pleasant memory in a few short years. As soon as kids start snapping rods and putting pistons through cylider walls, they'll realize how important good engine geometry is. Add that to the fact that they're running stock cams (because it's all their engine can safely handle) and getting burned by kids running Todas, or Juns, and they'll wish they had just stuck with their trusty B18C. Like I said, if it was all that great, Honda would have done it in the first place."

Question 1:
I want to safely get 240 HP out of this block. What do I have to do?
Well you'll already have about 180, and an i/h/e will add probably another 20 with that high-flowing setup, so there's about 200hp. I'm assuming you have an itr intake manifold, but if not get a skunk2 or eidelbach (sp?) one with a 65mm+ bore.
Question 2:
When joining the lx with the type r head, compression becomes higher (i think). Do I have to buy crower rods and valve train.
I'm a bit shakey on this one so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but your compression should still be the same as an LX if your using its gasket and pistons. A nice set of rods and higher compression pistons will definitly help with power since you have a p/p itr head, which was made stock for 11.1:1 compression. You could even raise it well past that, but shouldn't unless you feel like buying hi-octane (non-pump) gas the rest of your engine's life.

Question 3:
What are my transmission options for an application like this.
If you raise your compression with upgraded internals you'll basically have an itr engine with a lot more torque, so I would say buy an itr tranny, or ctr if you can't find one. But with LX internals, I don't think you should rev up to the itr's 8400 redline because of their weaker r/s ratio. BTW what ECU are you using?

For your car to hit 12's, you're going to need a lot more than 240hp btw.. more like 300-400. Good luck hitting those numbers without forced induction.

XSI, that was a wonderful rainbow if information, but he's asking how to make his setup better, not whether it was a good decision or not. Cams will help bigtime, I did forget that part, but driving/idling on the street will be kinda rough. Also, he's upgrading his internals so reliability will greatly increase.

Oh, one more thing... I didn't think the B16A had a r/s of 1.74, I thought only the B16B did. I'm unsure about that, but do they share the same crankshaft and rods? I know the B has forged pistions and the A doesn't.. Is that a variable in the r/s? Again, great info, but try to be a bit more constructive.

also, XI, i noticed that you didnt put the R/S ratio for the b20b/z. if you looked it up, you would realize that it is also near perfect.

All right. So I havent been around to talk much, but I'm back.

Let me correct something before I go any further. I appoligize for the mixup. I dont have a LS bottom, I have an RS bottom.

As for internals.
Ive got civic type R pistons already and Im going to get a full crower valve train and rods for the sake of durability.

Someone asked how much I picked up my head for. I got it already ported and polished (very nicely too) for $2000(CAN). Yes, its a bit much, but you try finding one of those in montreal for cheaper. After selling of the ITR bottom for $600 it became a reasonable purchase. The RS bottom cost me $400 and Im still searching for a transmission. I was hoping to pick up the Civic Type R with LSD but I cant find a good deal on one.

Im told my compression should be in the 11:1's so Im thinking that (as someone else already mentioned) Ill be getting about 200 hp out of it.

I already have a ITR intake manifold so I wasnt looking to get the skunk2 yet. However, I dont have a the VTEC computer yet, so if you can tell me which one will give me the most bang for my buck, it would be appreciated.

I think you guys are all very helpfull and I thank you all but Im still needing to get an extra 40 hp out of this car.

:: to think this all started with a stupid bet. Some fuck told me a civic could never have 240 hp. Grrrrr. I'm on a limited budget but with your help I'm sure to succeed ::

ok cool info in this thread but all stuff that has been said many times over. first off lsvtec is not a bad idea. i had it for a while and so do quite a few of my friends with absolutely no problems. let me teach you something. you said the b18c has what r/s ratio? 1.58:1? thats not great in my opinion, and when compared to lsvtec swaps its not very much worse. and nobody said anything about the b20a motor. the only good thing to come out of that was the crank but thats a side note. hes talking about either the b20b or b20z which came in the crv. the b20a would never work in a civic without serious engine mount reconfiguration.

now back to r/s ratio. im so sick and tired of people using this as a reason why lsvtec is bad. how many engine out there do you think have r/s ratios any better then an ls motor? not many at all. yah the b16 is good woohoo so i can rev to 11000rpm and you cant, big friggin deal. while youre getting there ill be halfway down the track with gobs of torque so whats your point? torque wins dragraces, not hp.

it is very possible to pull 240hp all motor out of this setup. but it will be a little more difficult considering you are keeping it a 1.8liter. you will definitely need higher compression then ctr pistons will give you thats for sure. and youd need like jun stage 3 cams with some good tuning but its very possible. in fact jun has their own gsr with 240hp all motor on their website im pretty sure and its in the 12's.

so heres the setup:
b18c5 head
jun stage 3
HD valve springs
heavy port and polish
b18b/a block
je 12-12.5:1 comp pistons
crower rods
block guard
EG civic cx
CTR or ITR tranny WITH LSD!!!!

very possible in the 12's if you do it right. might not be great daily driver cause youll need race gas and it will idle like crap but it will get the job done and do it well.

wow, im pretty surprised on how skeptical everyone is....we are talking about a frankenstein motor in a hatch with a p/p ctr head and a overhualed rs bottom end...which means you can rev ur motor to around 9k(i wouldnt do it too much) and if u are trying to go all out u can even stroke the bottom end....but lets say u dont have money to stroke the motor....with stage 3 jun cams and high compression pistons and all the neccassary bolt ons you should be getting into 12's without having to be in the 300-375 hp range.

Q: Oh, one more thing... I didn't think the B16A had a r/s of 1.74, I thought only the B16B did. I'm unsure about that, but do they share the same crankshaft and rods? I know the B has forged pistions and the A doesn't.. ----- A:The cranck and the rods are the same therefore it is the same R/S, but the pistons are diff so the comp in the B16B will be higher and the forged pistons are made to endure more heat therefore increasing it's reliability ant high rpm's..

The B18A/B is a peice when it gets past 7K, ask and reliable shop that knows about hondas. If you want a 1.8 with a B16 head, do it right, get a stroker kit... if you want torque, go with something other than honda, If you want a 2.0, get spoon to make you a stroker for the B16A/B ore the B18C1-5(inc. 2 3 and 4), curently I got spoon to custom make me a 2.1 stroker(closest you will get to torque w/ a honda w/o boosting it) for my 500,000km XSi.Don't get me wrong, but a frank motor is a bad Idea for the daily driven application, but is hot as hell for the track.and the little comment about you halfway down the track before I hit 11k is dumb. think about it, If you have to shift while I'm pulling wouldn't you shift and fall back about a carleingth from you previous position on me. I do't have to shift once for the whole 1/8 mile, and can ride 2nd out in the 1/4 on a stock tranny, but I have spoon gears on 1-4 and a stock 5th so, you make the call.

I've only seen 1.8 stroker kits from Spoon, but I'm sure they can custom build a 2.0
http://inlinefour.com/spoon18lstro.html

JUN has one as well
http://inlinefour.com/junb16a16to1.html

think about it like this torque x rpm = hp....if you have a car thats able to reach high rpm but doesnt have the torque you a situation like 4(implamenting rpms) x 2(implamenting torque) = 8 then you have a situtaion were you have a car that has a more balance between torque and rpm like 3 x 3 =9 so imo the balance between torque and high reving is were u get the speed to shoot ur ass down the 1/4. just an example.

if you are going to have the same numbers in motor power then yea, but the one that holds less rpms has to shift more often, therefore losing the race.(even though it has the same power fiqures). yes spoon can build custom. they are making me a 2.1L kit for a B18C3-5 and customizing it for the B16A first gen. it's as pricy as the Jun, but it's 2.1L instead of 1.8L. I have spoon gears, ECU, Camshafts, valvesprings& retainers, clutch, flywheel, and driveshafts, an hasport cable to hydo conversion, $1000 buck p&p job and a ITR LSD with about 50 hours on the dyno. the extra displ;acement will help a lot, but it will drop safe RPM's to 10,500. Even though spoon makes a good kit, I will still get it balanced and polished some more, shoot and peen the beams and mill the head .005 inches then I will have about a 10.9:1 comp ratio.

Ok. Heres a let me clear it up a bit more here. I dont expect to get 12 seconds with my first phase of mods. Eventualy I will get there so I will not buy something that will eventualy hold me back. I'm building a foundation here. However, I want that foundation to pump out 240 hp.

Are HD valve springs better/cheaper than crower valve springs?

With a compression rate as high as 12.5:1 , wont I be burning oil like crazy on day to day driving?

Does the ITR trany come with LSD? I only know of the CTR trany comming with LSD.

As for octain levels I dont mind putting 97 octain every time I fill up but no higher.

Last think. Dont forget budget. Im not ready to drop 1.5 G's on a stroker kit. Im keeping the crank, getting crower rods and maybe JE pistons as someone suggested. I still could use a bit of help with finding the best vavle train elements.

If your drag racing, why do you need a LSD??? yes the ITR tranny has a LSD, and if you go turbo then you want low compression. if you are going to change the valve train, then why didn't you buy a B16A head instead of the ITR head??? Just wondering..

ok well first off stroking and boring a b16 or b18 would also give you a bad r/s ratio so why would that be any different from doing a hybrid? oh im sorry the oil squirters on the vtec block right? a properly built ls block can rev to 9k rpms without a problem if not higher. and it would be considerably cheaper then doing a stroker kit. oh and you think because you can rev to the moon and hold gears longer then i can that it means you are faster? thats complete nonsense. i hate to do it but im bringing my car into this. my redline is right at 7k. my friends hatch is at 8.5k. even though i have to shift earlier then him, the amount of torque i have has allowed me to shoot forward and gain speed so quickly that the shift time is negligible. and no i dont own a honda right now. it all has to do with gear ratios and how that power gets put to the ground.

crower valve springs are fine, HD is not a company, i meant heavy duty :p

with 12.5:1 comp you will burn oil and it would not be suitable for street use. i stated that to let you know what compression it would take to get 240hp naturallly aspirated.

also i would highly suggest jun or toda products for valvetrain. very reliable and well engineered.

If I dont get a better valvetrain for a high compression engine, wont I mess up my engine at high rpms. (I believe its called float).

I would like to have LSD because, its always nice to get as much power to the ground without having one wheal stand in place. Reason number two; we get snow up here and its a real bitch not having it. But, if you tell me the ITR trany has it then cool. It should be easier to find.

im pretty positive that the ITR tranny has an lsd but just make sure to check it before buying. also you need upgraded valvetrain when reving past 8k rpm. yes stock can handle that but its pushing it with the stock valve springs. and yes it is called float when the springs bind and the valves actually "floats" open. if you are upgrading your cams get new valve springs at the same time and save yourself the hassle of having to open up the head again. oh new valves would be nice too. flow better, lighter, and stronger. a friend of mine snapped a valve on the dyno right after installing new cams on his brand new lsvtec motor. man was he pissed. lost compression in three cylinders, screwed a piston, and destroyed the head. ugly. :sunglasse

That is pritty sad.

I actually got the idea of building this block from a friend of mine who had the same thing. Only he didnt change the rods. He thought they could handle it since he wasnt going to race it all the time. One day taking a trip from Toronto to Montreal, he started getting fancy with a Porch (dunno what kind) and they raced for a while untill his block started smoking. Rod snapped and cracked the block. Man-ohhh-man was he pissssed.

This is the best deal I could find for my valve train. Let me know what you think.

Crower
84161 - KIT HONDA/ACURA B SERIES VTEC HI-PRESSURE DUAL SPRING & TI RETAINERS
- $450.91

Crower (Stainless Steel Valves)
Complete Set 16 pcs. (8 intake/8 exhaust)
- $271.26

Unless you are looking to make two completly differnt setups I would consider what is good for a turbo setup as you are doing this first phase of the build. Instead of going for high compression and getting the ITR tranny, both of which are not the best for a turbo... stick with the stock ls tranny (longer gears are better for a turbo becuase you are at WOT more and letting the turbo do what it does for longer on each gear) and add an LSD to it. Stick with lower compression forged pistons (or even the stock LS ones thay can handle at least 12 psi) other wise you will have to install new ones once you get the turbo. 12.5:1 and boost is a great way to see what pistons look like bathing in the oil pan. I think more like 8.5:1 or 9:1 is more suitable for turbo applications. Consider getting the block sleeved because you will need the sleeves it you want to run higher that 12 psi on a regular basis. Just some Ideas. Planning ahead can save you a lot of money in the long run and uless you have an unlimited budget that is a good thing.

DoubleTap

if u want to go turbo....gettting 240whp will be alot easier than doing n/a...i know somebody with a completly stock ls motor in a 4dr civic and a inliepro t3/t4 turbo kit, afc, and proper dyno tuning getting 250whp....and thats just the car the company uses to show wat kinda things u can do with a stock ls motor (he was pushing 10psi). so reaching that goal with a turbo will make ur life alot easier and ur budget more realistic.

But turbo cost a fortune and thats money I dont have right now. I was planning on driving the engine for about a year and then removing the high comp pistons and replacing them with low comp pistons, making the block turbo ready. All I will have lost is about 350 for the pistons. Unless you can tell me where to get turbo for dirt cheap, its not an option right now.

Here are my expensise so far.

$1400 Ported and Polished ITR Head and ITR manifold
$600 RS Bottom
$1500 Integra front and back disk brake conversion

I still need
Pistons, Vavletrain, rods, Headers, exhust, ECU, trany

ok doubletap did you bother reading any other posts in this thread? he wants an NA setup not turbo. yes we all know that lower comp pistons will be better suited for turbo but thats not what he wants to do. same goes for 93civic. not tryin to bash you guys or anything but try and read what the discussion is about before posting like that. also its not surprizing that your friends rod snapped. look at my previous posts and notice they all include new rods. stock rods are not great with over 12:1 compression and snap like your friends did. some people have luck with it and others dont. just think, is it better to spend 300 bucks for new rods in the beginning when the engine is apart anyways or wait to have them break then spend thousands on a whole new bottom end, machined block, and possibly new valvetrain?. you dont need the best rods but they need to be stronger than stock. shotpeening stock rods is an option but i dont recommend it. your block is open now, just get the extra 300 bucks and swap the rods too.

ok well your valvetrain sounds good but may i ask why do you insist on using crower? hey are good but not exactly known for their valvetrain parts. they have great connecting rods but i think you should look into toda or jun. i know lots of people with these parts and all have nothing but praise.

some pricing estimates to start you off:
(remember these are all my suggestions and price estimates for each part. do your own research and see which is better for you)
JE pistons-$400(check with a specialist at JE and find out what your compression will be with their pistons combined with your choice of rods, your ITR head, and RS bottom. you do not have a stock spec motor and your compression will not be the same as what they quote on certain motors.)
Crower rods-$400(your favorite company :p )
Toda cams-$750(stage1,2,or 3. i say 3!!!!!!)
Toda valve springs and retainers-$350
DC headers 4 to 1 -$250(yes the mugen and spoon headers are better but very expensive, even the JDM ITR headers are very good but pricey)
Thermal exhaust-$500(not too expensive as others are but very very good performance and sound)
Custom tuned Hondata s200-$250(i can get it for this price but dont know if you can. when running the kind of power you want to run youll need a tunable system like hondata)
ITR or CTR tranny w/lsd-$$$(not sure depends on mileage and condition but not cheap, i say about a grand)

again these are estimates off the top of my head so dont flame just correct me if im wrong. nobody ever said tuning was cheap!!!

and if i may make a suggestion, ITB's!!! individual throttle bodies. you will be the biggest pimp with these. good hp gains and a must have for very high hp NA cars. but a kit goes for about 1500 so save them pennies!!!

When ever has an All motor been cheaper than FI? And actually he did mention turbo. All you have to do is get 240 hp out of a civic? a civic chassis atleast... WHY doesnt he just get a B18B and turbo it? 12 psi isnt it? Its been said maaannnnny a time. All that shit you listed came out to close to $3000, or we can be nice and say $2500, not to mention the 1400 he paid for a Type R head, why would you port and polish a port and polished head(if you're on a budget), when you can get the B16 head for cheaper, and just port and polish it, or why even port and polish it. You dont even need VTEC, just get the LS and save the money.
This head was only $525 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33617&item=2452061334

This one $650.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33617&item=2451459918

http://www.importreview.com/dyno/turbo/turbols1.jpg

Thankx for all the help edman24. Im not in love with crower, I actually dont know too much about building fast cars. I mostly work with sound and computers, but if I really love going fast.
I found the toda cams for $750 but I cant find the other parts for the price you listed. Im sure you know what you're talking about. If you could hook me up with a location or web site where I could pick that stuff up it would be great.
So do you think the 240hp's looking a little better.
Here's the revised line up according to edman24

$1400 Ported and Polished ITR Head and ITR manifold (Got it)
$600 RS Bottom (Got it)
$350 Toda valve springs and retainers
$400 Crower Rods
$400 JE Pistons
$750 Toda Cams
$250 Custom tuned Hondata
$250 DC headers 4 to 1
$500 Thermal exhaust
Total Additional Cash Needed: $2900 (US) -- shit.. im canadian
Total Cash Spent: $2000 (CAN) -- $1500 (US)
Total Block Value: $4400 -- Without trany -- $5500 with trany

If I could pull that off, I'd be happy.
So can it be done?

Spectre927 the reason I'm not getting an ls and slapping turbo on it is because its not practical for street driving applications. I may not know ass much as the rest of you but I do know what I've seen. I'v got a friend with an LS/turbo and another who has a Civic DX with and RS/VTEC and let me tell you the push you feel is almost the same. I'm building the RS/VTEC and one day l8tr I will slap change the pistons and slap on a turbo. = RS/VTEC/Turbo.
Now you got a block with turbo and I got a block with turbo. Who's smoken' who?

Oh yeah. Well, you can build a custom kit for about a thousand plus the LS engine is $1000(600 for you're block, plus a reasonable $400 for the head). Then add a few more PSI, get a custom exhaust($500), maybe a cheap intercooler($400). Hondata($300) to tune it. That came out to about the same. Plus its a factory engine. You can also turn down the boost, or if you decide to build it up, you can turn it up.

Spectre927 the reason I'm not getting an ls and slapping turbo on it is because its not practical for street driving applications. I may not know ass much as the rest of you but I do know what I've seen. I'v got a friend with an LS/turbo and another who has a Civic DX with and RS/VTEC and let me tell you the push you feel is almost the same. I'm building the RS/VTEC and one day l8tr I will slap change the pistons and slap on a turbo. = RS/VTEC/Turbo.
Now you got a block with turbo and I got a block with turbo. Who's smoken' who?

Its LS/VTEC. And how would an "RS/VTEC/TURBO" be any more "practical" than an LS/Turbo? All motor is more reliable:true, but you claim to be on a budget. Either you're not smart with money, or you dont see the big picture. Do you realize the resale isn't good on USED parts, not to mention a market already full of them? What are you gonna do with those aggressive cams(plus matching springs and retainers), high comp pistons, 2.25 inch exhaust, the intake and the header systems? Then there's your type r tranny.... I'm just trying to help. After you finish your engine, give me the same amount of cash, and we'll see what I can do.

i think that ls turbo being faster is besides the point. if he builds this now and wants to turbo later, it will be much much faster then any regular ls turbo will be. but i will warn you, aggressive cams and high comp pistons will need to be removed before turbocharging or you will run into some problems. you really need to decide which one you want and stick to it. want NA? then go all out NA, dont plan on transforming it to turbo later on cause its a big waste of money.

also those prices i gave you are from experience. the best place for you to get prices on parts is either online or talk to the shop that will be doing this work for you. see how much they will charge you to order the parts. if you do it all through them they should give you a good price. thats what my friend is doing with his 650hp turbo lsvtec hes building. it will be insane when its finished.

Its LS/VTEC. And how would an "RS/VTEC/TURBO" be any more "practical" than an LS/Turbo? All motor is more reliable:true, but you claim to be on a budget. Either you're not smart with money, or you dont see the big picture. Do you realize the resale isn't good on USED parts, not to mention a market already full of them? What are you gonna do with those aggressive cams(plus matching springs and retainers), high comp pistons, 2.25 inch exhaust, the intake and the header systems? Then there's your type r tranny.... I'm just trying to help. After you finish your engine, give me the same amount of cash, and we'll see what I can do.


Actually its an RS bottom so isnt it RS/VTEC? I dont think I will ever be putting turbo on the block, but if I do, why would I change the springs and retainers? As for reselling performence parts.. I live in canada where parts are much harder to come by. Yes, I will never get the same value out of it, but I guess it all comes down to the fact that I dont really think Ill get turbo.

Hey edman24, your friends nutts.

I think im going to skip the toda cams, but keep the High comp pistons. Im not going to put turbo on the thing for at least a year after im done with the base. When I do put turbo on it i might loose 400 for the pistons but I'm pritty sure I could very easily get 80% of my investment on the headers back. As for the intake, it came with the engine.

So total setback if I go from high comp rs/vtec to turbo rs/vtec = about $500. Thats acceptable. Besides, it will be my first performance engine. Let me enjoy my learning curve.

Actually its an RS bottom so isnt it RS/VTEC? I dont think I will ever be putting turbo on the block, but if I do, why would I change the springs and retainers? As for reselling performence parts.. I live in canada where parts are much harder to come by. Yes, I will never get the same value out of it, but I guess it all comes down to the fact that I dont really think Ill get turbo.

No, it pointlessly confuses things, because then others may come in here and see RS/VTEC thinking its some new engine with 300hp, just call it an LS/VTEC. Usually the springs and retainers match the cams, but I suppose you could keep them... what would be the point though? Anyways, goodluck with whatever you choose to do.

wait so youre going with high comp pistons and staying with stock cams then?i guess thats ok just strange that you would do so. also if youre not changing the cams do not, and i mean DO NOT change springs and retainers. some people will tell you to do it and that you can rev higher, yes its true but that comes at a price. people dont realize aftermarket springs wear very quickly compared to stock ones. plus you dont need the extra room for lift because you are not changing the cams. staying with stock cams? keep the stock valvetrain.

oh yes two more things, it is always called ls/vtec not rs/vtec no matter what integra it came out of, and my friend is completely insane. we're talkin a 10 second street honda, maybe 9 seconds with a little juicey juice :rofl:

Your telling me that I dont have to change my valvetrain if I dont change the cams? Are you sure?

If you are thats great news. All I will be needing is the rods and pistons and I'm done for now.

Your telling me that I dont have to change my valvetrain if I dont change the cams? Are you sure?

If you are thats great news. All I will be needing is the rods and pistons and I'm done for now.

If you up the redline you will have to.

Ok, I got a honda civic cx hatchback (not that it matters too much) and I'm aiming to eventualy get a 12 second run out of it.

I've already bought a B18C (Integra type R) head and had it ported and polished.
I've also bought an ls bottom, hence the frankeinstien.
Now I dont plan on adding turbo any time soon.

Question 1:
I want to safely get 240 HP out of this block. What do I have to do?

Question 2:
When joining the lx with the type r head, compression becomes higher (i think). Do I have to buy crower rods and valve train.

Question 3:
What are my transmission options for an application like this.

OK kid can u show pics, y would you get a itr head PnP when it comes with one, take and trade it for a b16 head, and why not sell the ls and buy a gsr block, its ment for vtec, 1.54 in not a good RS ratio to be revin high, (even though im buildin one right now) i hope you dont plan on getting 240 WHP out of this cause it wont happne inless you got boost maby FwHP, kidd prove it, you will have 170-190 hp to the FW with LS/vtec, its not a dependable motor but is quick, sell the ls bottom and get a gsr, plain and simple, with you asking this question means you dont know to to much so go with somethin simple till you leanr the tricks of the trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

black89crxLs, I love how you just regurgitated everything that was said earlier in this thread. Why would he trade a port and polished itr head for a b16 head, it's like trading for a downgraded product. If I'm not mistaken, he can go the high compression route and get close to 240whp out of the setup with the right money. What are you asking him to prove anyway?

uhm...jus wanted to say one thing...

itr head (b18c5) is simply a p&p b16 head w/ other parts. might have already known this, but the way u were talking about it...made it sound like a whole different head.

Hey black89crxLs, go play in trafic. This is not a flame thread so f off. Where to you come off calling me a kid. Have we met before? I didnt think so.
Before you start making coments read whats been going on. I didnt say I got 240 out of anything.
Your not even worth me typing any more.

i said that simply because it's easy to re wire a b16 to a obo+ set up, but what do i know I've only done, munn over 15 swaps, mah bad, i just wanted to see a pic of the ITR head because so many sell b16 as ITR just change the v.cover to sell it for more, I guess what i should have stated was, what cx hatch do u have,92-95 or 95-99,,,,,,

My hatch back is a 95-99, and I never said you didnt know your shit. I just dont think anybody likes being called a "kid". Your oppinions are welcome, just not your insults

I want to thank everyone who gave me a hand in this thread. All your comments were appriciated. I've decided to go ahead with the following;

ls/vtec block with ported and polished head,
toda cams stage 3, toda valve train, JE high compression pistons, crower rods, DC 4-1 Headers, Hondadata, ITR intake manifold, ITR trany

Should be able to pull out at lease 210 out of there. :)

Kid is not ment as an insult, just like DUDE and Bro, thats just how we talk in Louisiana, any how you will get 170-195 HP from a stocl LS/V setup, with your ITR head P-N-P you should reach 200 right there, the you also have pistons i belive you said, just add a set of CTR cams, CAI,4-1 header and 2.5 exause and there you go, you can also boost the spart a lil with MSD, and you can easly squexe 5-13 extra HP if you have it finely tuned, keep us updated on you progress, and what u add!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to thank everyone who gave me a hand in this thread. All your comments were appriciated. I've decided to go ahead with the following;

ls/vtec block with ported and polished head,
toda cams stage 3, toda valve train, JE high compression pistons, crower rods, DC 4-1 Headers, Hondadata, ITR intake manifold, ITR trany

Should be able to pull out at lease 210 out of there. :)
you will be very proud of that set up, and should get more than 210, im guessin its not going to be a daily driver with the toda stage 3 cams, hondata will help you out a good bit, but expect rough idling!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to thank everyone who gave me a hand in this thread. All your comments were appriciated. I've decided to go ahead with the following;

ls/vtec block with ported and polished head,
toda cams stage 3, toda valve train, JE high compression pistons, crower rods, DC 4-1 Headers, Hondadata, ITR intake manifold, ITR trany

Should be able to pull out at lease 210 out of there. :)

I thought you needed 240, but thats cool, im sure you'll reach it. good luck

i read dynos of stock LS motors with 10 psi street setup turbo kit were pushing 250HP

i read dynos of stock LS motors with 10 psi street setup turbo kit were pushing 250HP

this is the most useless piece of info in this thread. i would just like to thank these morons coming on here and ruining a perfectly valid discussion between me and a few other people on these boards about how to make looking4_12s_run's NA LS/VTEC run in the 12's or produce 240hp. noone cares how much hp youve seen from ls turbos and weve said it a thousand times already that hes not going turbo. so i ask you, why post something like this? are you a complete imbicile or do you like it when i completely tear you up when im not even in front of you? i cant believe how many people do not bother to read previous posts before typing. im sorry if ive been a little harsh on the newb but damn it im getting really pissed off at the amount of people who disregard previously given info and post stupid sh*t.

to clear things up with looking, you must change your valvetrain components when changing cams no matter if your redline is higher or not. its the cam lift that makes the valvesprings bind not the redline. i said do not change your springs and retainers if you stay with stock cams. so there you go.

I couldnt find the detailed story but this will do.

You should definitly read this!!!

Quebec police smash huge car theft ring
Last Updated Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:50:21

http://cbc.ca/stories/CBC/2001/11/20/cars011120

sorry. I put the last post in the wrong place.
Shitt :banghead:

yeah considering i was just making a general statement of what a 10 psi LS can do stock comparing to where he said his built LS/vtec can only make 210 with those internals i was kinda saying that he should have alot more than 210 h.p if a stock turbo LS does that with 10 psi....and yeah im def. a newbie allright....... ive got better things to worry about.