integra ls vs. gsr

im looking at getting an integra, but im so damn confused on which to get - the ls, or gsr. i have heard the ls is better for modding, and the gsr doesn't have as much potential - everything - i want to eventually supercharge it :evillol: , but whats the better thing to do - get an ls, and turn it into a frank? or keep the stock ls, or get new heads, im confused :banghead: !!!!!!!

there are lots of subjects like this....do a search and u'll find ur answer

im just asking for an opinion - or someone who went the frank route or gsr route - if it was worth it - or what they would recomend - thanks

gsr = ls turbo about the same price range, power, gsr loses to ls turbo.
superchargers get bad play on this forum, but depends on the power youre looking for

revhard stage 2 turbo kit for gsr--

that sound good?

revhard stage 2 turbo kit for gsr--

that sound good?
sure - but what about the franks? - are those a pain - can you get good power of of them?

which frank, be more specific. there is more than one type of franken engine.

lsvtec, and crvtec are most common.

im looking at an ls frank - for example with a b16a head on it - i think thats it - im not too familiar with the franks - how easy are they to do? and do you know which one can make a 4dr fastest?
is vtec the way to go either way - or get non vtec?
eventually im thinking about a supercharger or turbo - which one would be most benificial - to which engine also?

everyone has there own opinion on the vtec subject so ls/vtec or frank. are not hard to do if you know what you are doing but i dont think it would be worht it but that is just my opinion i would say to just keep the ls stock and turbo it witht the right tuning you could get a stock ls in to the 13's. Then if your budget is ok then get rods pistons and head work and up the boost to really do some butt kicking. the ls turbo is the route i went and im not disappointed

everyone has there own opinion on the vtec subject so ls/vtec or frank. are not hard to do if you know what you are doing but i dont think it would be worht it but that is just my opinion i would say to just keep the ls stock and turbo it witht the right tuning you could get a stock ls in to the 13's. Then if your budget is ok then get rods pistons and head work and up the boost to really do some butt kicking. the ls turbo is the route i went and im not disappointed

I'm with you on that. Besides the ls is a better engine in my oppinion. I jacked out my 1990 and she treats me VERY good. I would still like to do a swap for something bigger but to start I definately feel the turboed ls is a good way to go. As far as the frank goes it would be too much work. :smokin:

yeah - that does make sence - franks are kinda a pain in the ass - so you can get a stock ls in the 13s? how much $ would you have to put into it? cuz i like the turbo ls idea

yeah - that does make sence - franks are kinda a pain in the ass - so you can get a stock ls in the 13s? how much $ would you have to put into it? cuz i like the turbo ls idea

Just the price of the turbo kit should get you 14's. But, you should get better exhaust, and a good clutch. With traction and good reaction times you should get 13's no problem with 10 PSI boost on an LS. Stock internals(if not too worn out)can handle 12 PSI safely. At 14 or so PSI the pistons start melting, rods start breaking, and over 15 PSI the stock cylinder sleeves start cracking.

Yes franks are too much of a pain. Plus they up your compression due to the smaller combustion chamber. Then you can't run as much boost.

Plus they up your compression due to the smaller combustion chamber.

Err, isn't the other way around? Larger compression chamber would make MORE compression.

Err, isn't the other way around? Larger compression chamber would make MORE compression.

First off it's called Combustion chamber, not compression chamber. Think of it this way, if you have a smaller combustion chamber the cylinder is compressing air into a smaller space. Make sense?

Can we just the the Ls/vtec better than GSR.....isn't that right?? also the Ls/vtec/ plus turbo is way better than GSR..That's all I know ..if anyone else got any idea..please add them up..

PWMAN- Dude,for sure you are right about combustion camber...oopss! Brain fart. And your thinking makes sense. But this is what i've heard. The larger compression chamber means there is more room for the mixture to get compressed (the piston can make a long stroke). I'm on my sisters computer, but on my computer i have a link for a honda engine calculator (different pistons, heads, blocks...etc). When comparing everything the same except the head, the b18b had a higher compression ratio compared to the b16 head. This make sense too, no? I'll post the link of the website in a few days (i'm at home and my comp is @ my apartment). Then we can both mess around with it and figure it out.

Merry Xmas

PWMAN- Dude,for sure you are right about combustion camber...oopss! Brain fart. And your thinking makes sense. But this is what i've heard. The larger compression chamber means there is more room for the mixture to get compressed (the piston can make a long stroke). I'm on my sisters computer, but on my computer i have a link for a honda engine calculator (different pistons, heads, blocks...etc). When comparing everything the same except the head, the b18b had a higher compression ratio compared to the b16 head. This make sense too, no? I'll post the link of the website in a few days (i'm at home and my comp is @ my apartment). Then we can both mess around with it and figure it out.

Merry Xmas

Call her and get it man, I need something like that.


Merry Christmas

Nevermind... I "searched":icon16:. Is this it by any chance?
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

so in the end - which engine can you make the fastest - overall - starting with a gsr, or ls vtec, or ls non vtec - which ends up with the most potential and the most power?

so in the end - which engine can you make the fastest - overall - starting with a gsr, or ls vtec, or ls non vtec - which ends up with the most potential and the most power?

LS/VTEC but they are also the most expensive. Cheap power is the LS/non VTEC. GSR B18C1 is the WORST of the 3. Even in racing VTEC is disabled.

so in the end - which engine can you make the fastest - overall - starting with a gsr, or ls vtec, or ls non vtec - which ends up with the most potential and the most power?


What came first: the chicken or the egg?

i did the calculation and the b16 head had a higher comp. it had a comp ratio of 9.55...:1 whereas the b18a/b had 9.20...:1.

i did the calculation and the b16 head had a higher comp. it had a comp ratio of 9.55...:1 whereas the b18a/b had 9.20...:1.

Yeah, thats what I said. Higher comp with LS/VTEC.

What is LS/VTEC?
Why would Honda do that?
What is R/S?
Why a low R/S is bad for reliability
What is power, exactly, and how do Hondas make it?
B Series, by the numbers
How VTEC works, and why it lives at high RPMs
Why it doesn't all fit together


What is LS/VTEC?


A quick tutorial for anyone who doesn't already know.

LS/VTEC is using a B18A or B18B block (referred to as an LS block, even though it was found in the RS, LS, and GS) and mating it with any of the DOHC VTEC heads- the B16A, B17A, or B18C. The principle is to use the larger displacement of the LS block (READ: higher torque) and mate it with the high end power of VTEC. I'm also sure you've heard of CR-VTEC, which is a very similar idea. It uses the B20Z block of the CR-V (NOT the B20A of the Prelude Si, for reasons that will become obvious later) to achieve the same effect, only on a grander scale. What you end up with is an engine commonly referred to as a "Frankenstein" setup, and it's all the rage these days.


Why would Honda do that?


So why in the world would Honda put us in such a situation- having to build these incredible motors all by ourselves? Why would they knowingly decrease displacement and torque in a car being manufactured to be faster than its lower-trimmed breathen?

Look at it, too, from a manufacturing standpoint- Honda is already making the higher displacement B18A and B blocks (blocks are identical, only difference was in the head), so why go to the extra time and expense of developing and manufacturing a separate block, especially if it will decrease output?

The answer is easy: R/S.


What is R/S?


R/S is the abbreviation for rod to stroke ratio. It is the ratio of the length of the connecting rod to the length of the piston stroke, or the distance the piston travels from the top to the bottom of its stroke. As the ratio gets lower, the amount of stress on engine internals increases exponentially, killing long-term reliability. The higher the number is, the slower the piston is traveling, killing power output.

The ideal R/S is 1.75:1 (Three cheers for the B16A, at a near-perfect 1.74:1!).


Why a low R/S is bad for reliability


A low R/S means the rod will be closer to a horizontal angle on its upstroke. This means that more of its force will be pushing the piston horizontally, rather than vertically. What does this mean for your engine? Two things.

1. There will be more stress on the sides and in the center of the rod, rather than on its ends, leaving the rod more vulnerable to breaking. Picture a straw. This is no special straw, just an ordinary drinking straw. Is it going to be easier to bend this straw by applying pressure onto its ends, or at its center? Now think of your poor connecting rods.

2. There will be more stress on your cylinder walls. Once again, the rod is pushing the piston at a more horizontal angle- right into your cylinder walls, rather than up and through them. The risk here is double: A. Putting that piston right through the cylinder wall. B. The cylinder wall will actually flex under the pressure, causing the shape to turn from a circle to an oval or oblong shape. This causes the loss of the seal created by the piston rings. What happens? A small amount of oil could slip past into the combustion chamber. Bad things happen from here: The oil gets combusted, leaving nasty carbon deposits in your combustion chamber and exhaust ports- not a good thing for flow or valve sealing.

It's also important to note that as the RPMs increase, so does the amount of stress on your engine's internals.


What is power, exactly, and how do Hondas make it?

Warning: Once you see this, you will never look at horsepower and torque readings the same again, especially after you think about it.

P= (TR)/5252

P= power, in horsepower
T= torque, measured in lb/ft
R= Engine speed, in RPMs

Therefore:

Horsepower= (torque x RPMs) / 5252

Try it- pull out a dyno and see what you get.

So from this, we can conclude that if we increase torque or engine speed, we will get more power, right?

Remember that, it's important...

Now how do Hondas make power? Our tiny little 1.6-1.8L engines aren't exactly oozing spare displacement and creating gobs of torque, are they? Hondas make power through revving, and revving high. So why does everyone place so much emphasis on creating torque? It's because all these bolt-ons you see advertised won't raise your redline, but they will increase torque. There's nothing wrong with squeezing every last ounce of torque out of your engine- you should. But trying to get torque from more displacement in a Honda is like trying to fill a swimming pool using a squirt gun. You'll never get enough for it to be useful.


B Series, by the numbers


Let's take a closer look at the B series engine blocks.

In the B18 blocks, Honda increases displacement by using a larger crank and increasing stroke (the B20Z also has a slightly larger bore, which is bad for reasons I won't go into here). This, of course, lowers the R/S, since the rod length remains (almost) the same.

B16A:
Rod length: 134 mm
Stroke: 77 mm
R/S: 1.74:1
Displacement: 1587.12 cc

B17A:
rod length: 131.87 mm
Stroke: 81.4 mm
R/S: 1.62:1
Displacement: 1677.81 cc

B18A-B:
Rod length: 137mm
Stroke: 89mm
R/S: 1.54:1
Displacement: 1834.47 cc

B18C:
Rod length: 137.9 mm
Stroke: 87.2 mm
R/S: 1.58:1
Displacement: 1797.36 cc

B20A (Older Prelude Si)
Rod length: 141.7-142.75 mm
Stroke: 95 mm
R/S: 1.49-1.50:1
Displacement: 1958.14-2056.03 cc

Now you see two things: Why Honda decreased the displacement from the B18A-B to the B18C, and why the B20A is widely regarded as a not-so-great engine. Honda decreased the displacement in the B18C by decreasing the stroke, improving the R/S. This allows the B18C to rev higher, and (Hey!) increase output.

Making sense? I bet you can see where this is going. But wait, there's plenty more...


How VTEC works, and why it lives at high RPMs


A quick crash course for anyone unfamiliar with VTEC:

VTEC stands for Variable Valve Timing and Electronic Lift Control. The premise is that at low RPMs and at idle, a less aggressive cam grind is necessary to prevent "loping." Ever hear a pro drag car staging up at the gates? Sounds like it's about to stall. It's because he's running aggressive camshafts, and since the cam is spinning more slowly at idle, the intake valve is still open after combustion has completed. That's what causes loping. At higher RPMs, a more aggressive grind is desirable. The idea is that you want to cram as much air and fuel mixture (A/F) into that combustion chamber as possible, so that when it's ignited you get as grandiose an explosion as possible. So what is good at low RPMs is bad for high RPMs. So what do you do?

If you're Honda, you invent VTEC. What VTEC does is simply to employ different cam grinds at different RPMs. A less aggressive grind at low RPMs for a smooth idle and low to mid range power, and a more aggressive grind up high to produce that high end pop. At a strategically placed "VTEC crossover point," the camshaft switches grind from the less aggressive to the more aggressive.

What determines this point? Hours and hours dyno testing and tuning. If it is set too low, the more aggressive grind will kick in early, bogging down the engine (think "loping" at 3500 RPM). Too high, and the engine is missing out on valuable time it could be spending with the VTEC engaged. So all those fools who spent on a VTEC timer running stock camshafts just so they could get their VTEC to kick in earlier- they're idiots. They just cost themselves a ton of midrange power. The stock crossover point is optimized for stock camshafts.

So when is a VTEC timer necessary? Easy- when you're no longer running stock camshafts.

If you want big power all motor, you go with one of the big players in the cam game- Toda Spec B and C, or Jun Stage 2 and 3, and you accept no substitutes. All (or at least 95%) of the 225+ all motor whp B18s are running these camshafts.

How does this relate to VTEC crossover point? Well, the VTEC grinds on these cams are so aggressive, that the VTEC point needs to be moved up- way up- usually to 6500-7000 RPM. These cams will also make power to 9500+ RPM (READ: Built motor). Run these in conjunction with high compression pistons (at least 10.5:1), and you'll have yourself an all motor wonder. And this, friends, is where torque in Hondas comes from.

Why it doesn't all fit together
So here's what we've learned:


The LS/VTEC suffers from a bad R/S, due to the fact that it utilizes an LS block with a R/S of 1.54:1.
A bad R/S is bad for the engine, especially at high RPMs
Hondas make power through revving, and high power through revving higher, high compression, and aggressive camshafts

Because of its R/S ratio, it is not recommended that you rev an LS/VTEC past 6750 RPM on stock internals- the redline of a stock B18A-B. With a fairly built bottom end, it is still not recommended that you rev an LS/VTEC past 7800 RPM.

As we just discussed, in order to get any considerable power out of an engine, aggressive camshafts are a must. In order to get any benefit from aggressive camshafts, the ability to rev the engine high is a necessity. What good is VTEC if you can only use it for the top 1000 RPM of your powerband?

LS/VTEC is a fad, and I predict that it will be all but a pleasant memory in a few short years. As soon as kids start snapping rods and putting pistons through cylider walls, they'll realize how important good engine geometry is. Add that to the fact that they're running stock cams (because it's all their engine can safely handle) and getting burned by kids running Todas, or Juns, and they'll wish they had just stuck with their trusty B18C. Like I said, if it was all that great, Honda would have done it in the first place."

hondaintegraxsi - MAN - that info is great!!!! - where did you get that??? if you post a link i would appreciate a TON - im new at learning about engines