first rally car suggestions...

Hey everyone. I've recently got into rally, and i'd really, really like to get a car and go out and do it myself. Yeah, i know that sounds like i dont know what im getting into, and, well, i dont!! AHH! okay, few questions.
1) Is there any autoX rally competitions, or do i have to goto club stuff, like scca, etc. ?
2) If i do get a car, what do you think would be best? Im not going to spend alot, because this isnt a daily driver, and its more or less going to get busted up, so think cheap. cheap and hatchback. gotta love hatches. Lol...I know this will sound dumb, but im really into drifting (i just think rally is prolly more fun) so are there any cars commonly used to drift that i could use in a rally?? just curious...sorry if i offend and religious drift haters...at least i didnt ask how many honda civics compete in wrc!!! :lol2: anyways, i really appreciate any help i get...see ya!

Well, the Nissan Z cars took the rally world by storm in the 70's.

Well, the Nissan Z cars took the rally world by storm in the 70's.

You mean the same Nizzan Z's that were found to be too big and ungainly for rallying?
The only rallys they 'took by storm' were the East African Safari rally.
The Z cars were used in actual international competition from 1971 through to 1974 and in those 4 years only took 3 wins, not exactly what I would call taking the rally world by storm?
They may have faired better on the smaller lesser known circuits, but I am talking about the top echelon of competition.

Back to the original topic of this thread though.
Are you looking to do auto-X, rally-X or actual rally(as in with a co-driver)?
I know a guy that does Auto-X and Solo1 with a Honda CRX which has had some slight mods done, the car does really well because of its compact size and maneuverability.
As for cars that are used to both drift and auto-X, the Silvia S-14(USDM 240SX) is great for this. One of my best friends has one for this very purpose, talk about very capable car!

The Z cars were used in actual international competition from 1971 through to 1974 and in those 4 years only took 3 wins, not exactly what I would call taking the rally world by storm? :screwy:



Almost immediately after the introduction of the car, 240Zs were developed for racing by legendary drivers and constructors, including Bob Sharp, John Morton and Peter Brock. Z-cars were raced in off-road rallying and road-racing competitions, winning 10 consecutive SCCA C-Production championships and numerous IMSA GTU races and championships.
For the three you bring up on rally.
("The East African Safari Rally - is said to be the worlds most grueling sports car event. Running through the nations of Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania on the African continent, the stages of this Rally are ran over a five day period at average speeds of 60MPH+ (100kph).
In its first entry in the 19th East African Safari Rally (1971) the Datsun 240Z won the Over-all Victory, Class Victory, Team Victory and Manufactures Championship. This victory also set new records as NISSAN became the first company to win back to back Victories in all three categories! (the Datsun 1600SSS Team having done the same in 1970). The driving team of Edgar Hermann / Hans Shuller also became the first team to win back to back over-all victories! Another significant note is that the Datsun 240Z was the first vehicle to capture an Over-all victory in its first year of competition!
For the 1970 Event, 91 entries started the course, only 19 managed to finish! For 1971, 107 entries started the course, only 32 finished.

1971: 19th East African Safari Rally
Overall First Place
Team - Edgar Herrmann / Hans Shuller 240Z #11
(note: Overall Victory, Class, Team, and Mfg. Victory)
Overall Second
Team - Shekhar Mehta /Mike Doughty 240Z #31
Overall Seventh
Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Paul Easter Car #12
1972: 20th East African Safari Rally
Overall Fifth Place
Team - Edgar Herrmann / Hans Shuller 240Z #10
Overall Sixth Place
Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Toni Fall 240Z #5
Overall Tenth Place
Team - Shekhar Mehta /Mike Doughty 240Z #8
1973 21st East African Safari Rally:
Overall First Place
Team - Shekhar Metha / H.W.(Lofty) Drews 240Z #1

1971: 40th Monte Carlo Rally
Second In Class and Overall Fifth - Rauno Aaltonen / Jean Todt 240Z #5
Overall Tenth - Drivers and Car ???
(242 cars started - 24 finished)
1972: 41st Monte Carlo Rally
Overall Third - Rauno Aaltonen / Jean Todt
1973 42nd Monte Carlo Rally
Overall Ninth Place - R.Aaltomen / P.Easter 240Z #10
Datsun 240Z which ran the 7th Southern Cross Rally in 1972. Finished first in class and second in the overall standings. ")

Ouch :eek7: http://www.zhome.com/History/Eriksson/ErikssonCrash1s.jpg

:screwy:



Almost immediately after the introduction of the car, 240Zs were developed for racing by legendary drivers and constructors, including Bob Sharp, John Morton and Peter Brock. Z-cars were raced in off-road rallying and road-racing competitions, winning 10 consecutive SCCA C-Production championships and numerous IMSA GTU races and championships.
For the three you bring up on rally.
("The East African Safari Rally - is said to be the worlds most grueling sports car event. Running through the nations of Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania on the African continent, the stages of this Rally are ran over a five day period at average speeds of 60MPH+ (100kph).
In its first entry in the 19th East African Safari Rally (1971) the Datsun 240Z won the Over-all Victory, Class Victory, Team Victory and Manufactures Championship. This victory also set new records as NISSAN became the first company to win back to back Victories in all three categories! (the Datsun 1600SSS Team having done the same in 1970). The driving team of Edgar Hermann / Hans Shuller also became the first team to win back to back over-all victories! Another significant note is that the Datsun 240Z was the first vehicle to capture an Over-all victory in its first year of competition!
For the 1970 Event, 91 entries started the course, only 19 managed to finish! For 1971, 107 entries started the course, only 32 finished.

1971: 19th East African Safari Rally
Overall First Place
Team - Edgar Herrmann / Hans Shuller 240Z #11
(note: Overall Victory, Class, Team, and Mfg. Victory)
Overall Second
Team - Shekhar Mehta /Mike Doughty 240Z #31
Overall Seventh
Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Paul Easter Car #12
1972: 20th East African Safari Rally
Overall Fifth Place
Team - Edgar Herrmann / Hans Shuller 240Z #10
Overall Sixth Place
Team - Rauno Aaltonen / Toni Fall 240Z #5
Overall Tenth Place
Team - Shekhar Mehta /Mike Doughty 240Z #8
1973 21st East African Safari Rally:
Overall First Place
Team - Shekhar Metha / H.W.(Lofty) Drews 240Z #1

1971: 40th Monte Carlo Rally
Second In Class and Overall Fifth - Rauno Aaltonen / Jean Todt 240Z #5
Overall Tenth - Drivers and Car ???
(242 cars started - 24 finished)
1972: 41st Monte Carlo Rally
Overall Third - Rauno Aaltonen / Jean Todt
1973 42nd Monte Carlo Rally
Overall Ninth Place - R.Aaltomen / P.Easter 240Z #10
Datsun 240Z which ran the 7th Southern Cross Rally in 1972. Finished first in class and second in the overall standings. ")

I think you missed the point.
I did not detract from the toughness of the East African Safari rally, having lived in Africa for nearly 20 years I know a little more of the terrain than your 'average' American.
My point was taking something by storm would insinuate that they came along and won everything there was, the Z's didn't quite do that.
I too could have posted the list you did, I have it here too, I was only clarifying your main statement.

Datsun developed the Z for the likes of the Safari, it was known it was really too big for tackling the tighter rallies like the Monte although it was used there with limited success.

You already mentioned the use in SCCA competition, track racing is where the Z really was able to show its worth.

Either way, I think we both agree that the 240Z has some excellent merits, so we need not argue about its worth or place in competition history, it certainly does have a rightful place there.

We digress from the original question too, which was what would be a suitable car for rally and auto-X. I think the Z would be too heavy for that, in personal opinion.

PS. That photo is one thing that proves the ruggedness of the Z, that car landed on its roof (I have the photos of before they flipped it back over), both driver and co-driver were relatively unharmed.

We digress from the original question too, which was what would be a suitable car for rally and auto-X. I think the Z would be too heavy for that, in personal opinion.
I would agree with you on this. But, only on later 260 on up Z cars. The main reason I said look into the Z was the low cost vs. performance. IMO it a good STARTER for learning the ropes. With alittle homework you can get into a race preped Z for around 5 - 6 grand easy.
Working on one is just so easy it's not funny. Hell on my 240 I can swap the motor and trans in under 3 hours. Plus never need to deal with the cost or time of computer headaches.
After all as a new driver you will need a car you can just beat the living hell out of on the weekends. Then fix on your free time during the week. I would just call the first year or two in racing classroom time. So you just need a car for learning.
The #1 reason I said the Z is they can take the pounding #2 easy on the pocket for the car & parts. #3 as easy as they come for wrenching.
Anyway, what ever you pick for a ride #1 GO OUT AND HAVE FUN :iceslolan

1g dsm or a 323 gtx would both make good little rally cars also what about a Subaru Justy might not be fast but you won't die in the first corner either. :biggrin:

1g dsm or a 323 gtx would both make good little rally cars also what about a Subaru Justy might not be fast but you won't die in the first corner either. :biggrin:

I did some rally-x with a 323, although a great little car and very nimble, I didn't find it quite up to the task in the long-term. Witnessed some body separation around the rear.

find one that suit your driving style so that you can master it faster.

and lots of spare parts for the car....cos the cost of spare can add up.

my choice are WRX and EVO. WRX cos Pete drives it :evillol:

EVO cos Tommi droven it :evillol:

It's really a question of money, when it comes to rally. Sure, a Civic or whatever can do it, I've taken my old '83 Civic for a little dirt racing, even. As long as it's not RWD, it'll be fine for rally.

Now, if you want to do more than just mess around and go serious, any Impreza will work well, since they're AWD and pretty good. If you want to lay down some serious money, you can "go for the gold" and get an Evo or an STi. But as for cheap cars, a Lancer Ralliart is, basically, a Evo with a weaker engine and FWD (that's a big simplification). If you want something even cheaper, the Civic ain't a bad choice.

I have FWD 323 if you are interested? It's not the AWD GTX or GTR but it should get the job done! I think the Z cars are a good choice! You got power and RWD! And you know what... it can double as a drifter! I would never use my 240sx fo rally!
No-way! I love that car! Get a Z man!

What's up with RWD haters here? FWD can not compare to RWD!

What's up with RWD haters here? FWD can not compare to RWD!

No ones hating RWD, it's just that it's about dumb to go rallying in a RWD vehicle. FWD and AWD are MUCH better for traction in the conditions put forth in rally races. Nothing wrong with RWD, nothing wrong with FWD, nothing wrong with AWD... they have their places in racing and rally is not where RWD belongs... despite what you may think while you worship your RWD vehicle.

note: I'm not saying a RWD vehicle can't do well in Rally (as it has been proven to be just fine) I'm just saying that in strictly rally, its traction that matters more than power and fwd and awd outdo rwd generally.

If you actually check the history of rally car development, RWD was quickly shown the door once the AWD Audi's appeared.
The last RWD cars to appear on the WRC circuit were beasts to handle and the drivers admitted it, being pushed (RWD) on gravel makes things very hairy as opposed to being pulled (FWD).

If you actually look into the WRC, no teams run RWD in any class, it's all AWD or FWD for an obvious reason.

I know this may sound stupid... but... are there any FWD cars in WRC now? I thought the Focus and Pugs were AWD?

What about the Volkswagen Golf? The FF Golf is a very formidable rally car. It's cheap, reliable, and VERY easy to mod.

All cars in WRC are AWD.

If you actually look into the WRC, no teams run RWD in any class, it's all AWD or FWD for an obvious reason.


The obvious reason being the lack of RWD platforms suitable for rallying from any of the currently competeing manufactors.

And from my own experiance in 1600cc class rallying here in NZ the RWD cars were all significantly faster than any of the FWD cars, not even early Kit Car class cars (for runners to the current F2? class) were able to compete on the same level as old RWD Escorts, Corrolas, and Starlets.

Yeah dont rally a RWD, I have been for the last few weeks and look what happened last night:

http://members.cox.net/sandhawk/DSCF0786.JPG
http://members.cox.net/sandhawk/DSCF0771.JPG

I'd get a Lancia.

No clue how the prices in the us are, but look at this one:
http://www.mobile.de/SIDXHnB5hc68gsGQYwBkjf8Bg-t-vaNexlCsAsK%F3P%F3R~BmSB10LsearchPublicJ1081772540 A1LsearchPublicCCarX-t-vctpLtt~BmPA1A1B20B41n-t-vMoSm_X_xsO~BSRA6IintegraleIINTEGRALEA2A0A0/cgi-bin/da.pl?bereich=pkw&id=11111111135007975&top=9&

this thing is just hellish fast and fun to drive. I already thought about buying this one :rolleyes:

get some ricy stickers and you'll be the man with this one.

cu

They don't sell Lancias in the U.S.

If you want a car that you don't have to worry about crashing, get an RWD Corolla or Celica. RWD is my favorite platform, but the higher the horsepower the easier it is to push it to far. An awd has a much better balance for rally purposes, but could be a bit expensive. For a "reasonably priced" awd car get a 90-95 Talon, or Eclipse, or a celica all-trac. A 323GTX is ridiculously hard to find. Whatever you do dont go fwd.... unless you enjoy using the handbrake a lot. The "joy of rally" is having the back end out, awd gets the job done with medium understeer, and a fwd has way too much understeer. RWD Rallying is extremely dangerous if youre not used to having crazy oversteer, but eventually you'll get used to it. If you plan on "really cutting loose" in a rally sprint, or in an actual rally get awd. If you plan on doing mostly rallycross, any car will work.

And also- RWD rally cars(Lancia 037, Renault-5Turbo) were taken out of the WRC because too many people were dying.

Celica All-Tracs are hard to find... The GT-Fours are even harder.

Hi guys im From UK
If you want to look at lower class rally cars IE 1600 super1600
Nearly all are ff in the jwrc and is known as a proving ground like Sebastian lobe, Colin McRae
In the UK we have a large amount of championships and
class's as set by MSAUK as well as a fair few one make series that run along side the full championship like the Peugeot Cup and the
Peugeot 1400 the latter being the one I am going to start next year all you need in a pug 1400 and the Peugeot kit £6k all in you put it together and all the cars are all the same A5 class so you rally the pug 1400 cup and the BTARA CHEEP as Chips
Surly in America they do the same and have one make rally
and you should look for one you like the looks of
Don’t forget you have to normally get a B rally Licence as well
but good luck

another reason to start rallying in a ff car is that it handles alot more like the AWD car in the new age of rallying going sidways and geting the back out are just not the awnser look at it this way not so much power slide.
new ageyou sacrifise time into the corner to gain more time on the exit unlike the belt it in there togol the hand break start pendulum hard tweek start slide drop gear power down slide slide grip and then go time is lost the newer gen of world class rally drivers will tell you clean driving works look at Lobe from super 1600 to tester now Citron ace his normal drives very cleanly more F1 than i would like to admit
richard burns started in the pug 1600 cup and won 2001 WRC

Alright I dont know if you have moved on or what by now but if your are still looking I have talked with some Scca ProRallyers here in the US. If your are looking for a good cheep car to start with try a Golf or GTI. Should be able to fine a rally prepared one for 3000 to 6000. Or a Dodge clot or 323 Awd or fwd. This would most likely get let you go all the way to clubrallying or farther if all the specs are there, cage qualifications and what not. if you are just starting rallycross any car will do, i have seen neons, focuses, mercury avengers, really anything will work no special crap either. If you are looking for an awd try a 323 gtx, tallon, or eclipse they should run under 6000 for a nice one. again sorry if this is long over.

They don't sell Lancias in the U.S.

If you want a car that you don't have to worry about crashing, get an RWD Corolla or Celica. RWD is my favorite platform, but the higher the horsepower the easier it is to push it to far. An awd has a much better balance for rally purposes, but could be a bit expensive. For a "reasonably priced" awd car get a 90-95 Talon, or Eclipse, or a celica all-trac. A 323GTX is ridiculously hard to find. Whatever you do dont go fwd.... unless you enjoy using the handbrake a lot. The "joy of rally" is having the back end out, awd gets the job done with medium understeer, and a fwd has way too much understeer. RWD Rallying is extremely dangerous if youre not used to having crazy oversteer, but eventually you'll get used to it. If you plan on "really cutting loose" in a rally sprint, or in an actual rally get awd. If you plan on doing mostly rallycross, any car will work.

And also- RWD rally cars(Lancia 037, Renault-5Turbo) were taken out of the WRC because too many people were dying.

A well balanced FWD drifts very nicely. In my 85 crx the only time I used the ebrake was on the tightest hairpins. Otherwise the theory is pretty much the same as awd and rwd.

Tiburons make great rally cars. Even a FWD Tib is a force to be reckoned with. Turbo it, throw a performance suspension on, and you'll be good to go.