Help Me Build My Beast...

Hello everyone. I recently bought a third gen camaro from a friend. I would like to build the fastest meanest third gen ever. My goal is to drop a stroked lt1 (383) into it. I want about 900 to the wheels, yes I know I need forced induction so i'm planing on a supercharger. I have a fairly deep budget.

Thanks

900 at the wheels huh? For that many ponies I would go with a big block. But that's just my opinion. Unless you just want the LT1 block I would not go with that. So here is what I would do for some deep pocket horse. Get yourself an unmolested 454 and stroke it to a 496. They have kits for it. But make sure you get the best bearings, and rings. I would go with a forged crank and rods. Brodix makes some pretty powerfull heads, I would get the best brodix heads you can afford, I think they require longer push rods. Also you will want to get them port and polished to match your intake. You'll want long tube headers and figure out a true dual set up that's right for you. Now for intake you can go a few different ways. Edelbrocks victor series is a serious intake, set a holley 4500 series 1050 cfm carb. Or dual quad tunnel ram would rock some socks too, a set of holley 750 dubble pumpers will liven anything up. Or you can go with the supercharger. The cam is another extremly important matter. but it depends on what induction your going with. When you order your other stuff get some suggestions from the techs at jegs, summit, or your local speed shop. Well that's a quick down and dirty, if you need more just ask.

Thats going to be hard to keep 900HP streetable and remain up to safety standards for NHRA and IHRA. be prepared to to run pure race gas as well.

Oh, I didn't think of that. Do you want to keep it streetable?

A engine with that much horsepower is not realiable at all. Also be prepared to fix alot of stuff.

Not to start anything but, have you been in an engine before or anything like that??? I'm just wondering because that will be a big factor on weather or not you want this car. I'm assuming you have not bacause your unfimallar with what makes a engine perform. I could be wrong, I'm not trying to bad mouth you or anything like that. It's just something to consider. Also consider what tranny and rearend your going to run.

yeah tranny and gearing is a huge factor. You seem to know quite a bit hypis, what would you suggest for a 900hp beast. I'm thinking powerglide with 4.56 gears. You could go with a TH400 with 5.11 gears, but I think the powerglide would be a better choice.

hmm good question... I would say a TH400 with a ford nine inch rear end. As for the gear.... That kinda depends on the size tire that you would run and how fast you want to spin the crank... I would not run a 5.11 gear on the strip. If I where doing this and had a deep budget, I would put a twin turbocharged setup on it. This one lady at a NHRA meet in cali. that ran a twin turbo 355 ci all steel body camaro in the meet (I can't rembember what class she was running in it was either super comp or super street something like that.) but anyway, she was running low six's at 220+ MPH with a steel body :eek:. Anyone who knows dragracing knows that that is alot of power. I would say a 900 HP car is not going to be able to get on the street much. Yea it might be streeable but will it be a street car. Plus you will need to put a roll cage and subframe connectors in. If im correct thrid gen f-bodies have a serouis problem with torquing the body to hell and back

Holley jesus that's a ballsy camaro. There are ways around the body torque on a third gen..I learned the hard way. All you have to do is welld a couple extra cross members onto the frame to keep it from twisting. I have a feeling this thread is gonna take up some time. But I wouldn't go with the 400 because of header restrictions. you can't use long tube headers on a third gen camaro with a 400 tranny. That's why I sugested the powerglide. But if you don't mind the shorty style headers then the 400 is a pretty good choice. Another thing to consider is that your gonna have to fork out at least 4 or 5 grand on suspension. All the ponies in the world aren't going to do you any good if you can't keep the sticky to the pavement. With 900 hp you could run pro street. but I wouldn't put it on the sreet. Like Hypsi said, ford 9 inch cut down tubed out and some mickey t's. Look into an adjustable torque arm as well. Since your going to have to get a new one anyways I would pay the little extra and get one you can play around with. And don't by any means get an aluminum driveshaft. You'll just be waisting money.

hmm, well, just cuz its got 900 dosnt mean its nessessaraly unreliable. if you use quality parts, and and dont skimp on little things like reputable shops doing the work, it should be ok. but i wouldnt drive it every day. i would say, steer clear of the LT1, the ignition is the main problem, the inner bearings get hot, and the distributor melts on the front of the engine, you loose timing, and boom engine like that would be toast realllly quick. i would say stick with the one peice rear main small block. old school. you can make a 454 small block pretty easy, use a 400 block, a scat billit crank, they go for around 2200 bucks, not to bad as far as billits go. carrilo rods, and i have heard good things from JE pistons, for forged units for that application. comp camps xtream energy cams are pretty good, but i dont know if they have one with enough lift to get what your after. but youll have to look into that. of course roller cam and lifters, and jesel shaft rocker system would be worth while. put in a crank scraper, thermal coat the chambers, piston crown, exhaust port, and valve faces. obviously headers are in the recipe. and a free flowing exhaust, ive always wanted to see someone put a used nascar exhaust sidepipe on a third gen to see if it would fit. contact muscle motorsports if your interested. an accell super ram intake system, i would go with a speed dencity system cuz youll have to program all your own fuel maps and spark curves. or youll probly hear from alot of people to go with carbs, but eh, thats so passe. :) powerful ignition say, crane cams fireball HI-6 with PX92 coil and a hi performance distributor. also, think about using baby bearings on the connecting rods, they are 1.889 vs 2.1 rod journals, so you can even offset the crank a bit with it, by .211 inches and the smaller bearins reduce friction and heat build up and.... horsepower :) maybe dry film coat the piston skirts, bearings, and such. remember friction is your worst enemy when your goin for hp. as far as heads, look into airflow research aluminum 220cc heads, or edelbrock E-Tec 200 heads. those flow more than the gm's fastburn 23 degree heads. have them ported and polished and put in oversized 2.02 1.6 valves. for induction, if you are looking for more power, i would go with a twin turbo setup, VERY complicated, and probly expencive, but ive found from research that turbos do make more power, (sorry all, im a recent supercharger to turbo convert.) as far as drivetrain, yeah, i seriously doubt that the 700 will take it. go with a buiilt TH400 and a solid 12bolt or ford 9in rear end. built with name brand parts and at shops that know exactly what they are doing. its really not that steep of a request unless you are looking to drive it everyday, or be street legal. you need the best, most precice work possible. :)

Leave it to Iroc for the best information. This cat knows what he's talking about. small block guru.

Well realiable for running down the track yes but to go dwn the road all the time = wear and tear

Well if you drove it all the time you better drive it like it's the last car in the world.

put a blower on it

wow, thanks for the quick respones. I'm kinda anal about these things and want to stay with a small block. I've been trying to do this on my own for a while, but I get nowhere. I'm looking into some AFR 220's, i'll get them ported and such. then I checked into a Superram intake, they seem to do really well. Then I was looking into a nice supercharger a while ago, I think it was a ProCharger D-1SC Stage II Supercharger. My question; is the supercharger compatible with the superram? It's the bottom end stuff i'm worried about. I have no clue what to do in terms of pistons, rods ect. In terms of gearing and such i was hoping for a manual with a set of 4.11's. And yes I want this to be streetable. I have no problem wit emissions and such, i ave connections.

Well I have to agree with Iroc, for that much hp you should probably go with an automatic, and 4.11's arent' going to do squat for you. You'll just be waisting horse power. Superchargers are great, but I think twin turbo will be your best bet. Although I have heard good things from prochargers. I would go with bowtie or vortec heads though, they tend to flow better. But if I was you, I hope not to piss anyone off here, but I would go out and get a super chevy magazine, look at the articles and see what other people are doing. We can give you numbers and advice all you want, but that way you have something to actualy lay your eyes on. But if it's small block you want, then listen to Iroc, havn't seen any thing but great advice from him.

Tons of power is easy to make with turbos. EG: harlan did 800 to the wheels on a stock-cube LS1 with twin T66's @ 12 psi, I have a friend with a PT88 on a 383" SBF that did 770 to the wheels on a mustang dyno @ 19 psi (or approx. 900 to the ground on a dynojet), its hard to make those kind of numbers without going over to cogs on the blower, which are a pain in the ass on the street. IMHO run smaller cubes, i'd take a .030 over dart block or whatever you're going to use, stock stroke billet crank, stock length billet rods, 8-8.5:1 compression, for heads find some with nice mid-range flow whatever you like, running a short runner single plenum carb intake converted to EFI with an elbow. For turbos I would run a pair of precision SC61's with the TO4E housings and .68 A/R tang housings with P-trim wheels. The SC61's use garrett's new GT40 wheels, so they will spool MUCH quicker than a turbo in the same horsepower range, and have a very broad efficency range. They should spool somewhere between 3000-3500 RPM's for full boost, and will do around 1100 RWHP tops.

Well, I guess that'll bout do it.

awww 92RS you gonna make me blush :)

but madyak, glad to be of help. but like i said, for the bottom end, definately splayed four bolt mains, if you go with a 400 block get the two bolt, they are stronger (go figure) and have aftermarket splayed four bolt caps put in my a reputable machine shop. also the scat billit crank, is the name to go with, theve been in the industry for a long time, and have alot of experience. as far as rods, you have alot of choices, i would go with the carrilo H-beam rods with the baby bearings. but talk to the scat people and see if the small 1.889 journals would take the 1000+hp your talking about. with that long stroke the rod journals dont overlap the main journals and you loose a bit of strenth, thats why i like small strokes where the two journals overlap, its a bit of extra insurance. obviously ARP fasters on EVERYTHING down under is part of my reccomendation. and like i have, and..... boosted said, i would go with the turbos if you want that kind of power, but hey, superchargers are cool, and easier to do. so more power to ya whichever way ya go. as far as compatability, the superram is exactly like a tpi setup as far as placement of the throttle body and all that peices, its just that the plenium is a bit larger in two areas. so just look for an application for your supercharger, for a 92 TPI setup, and it will bolt right up. any large chain manufacturer of superchargers should have this application. also, 92RS is right, i mean, you might be able to get a T56 to work, with alot of money thrown at it, but an auto is just betterfor the job. say a 3000 rpm converter and as far as gears, im assuming that you dont care about gas mileage lol, with that much hp, you could get away with 3.73's or the 4.11's. or maybe even a pair of 4.56's, but it would be hell to drive on the street, unless you like the wail of your smallblock everywhere you go. take the car as is, and drive it around the block in first gear. thats kinda what it would be like :) for pistons. obviously forged units are preferred but for an application like that, youll have to actually contact a piston company and get the advice of a trained perfessional. they make many different styles and applications, and will be the best to point you in the right direction. most have toll free numbers, and it wont cost you a thing. so its worth the investment of time. that way your engine dont go boom :)

I would go with the 4.56 gears and take it on the street on a trailor being pulled by a bad ass truck. LOL but that's just me.
HA I had to drive mine from work in first gear once, I couldn't shift into second no matter what I did. It sucked.

yeah i cant imagine first gear on the highway, my three four clutch pack went out, and drove home from work in second and i thought that was bad. sheeesh

luckaly I live all of a mile from work...still not fun.

oh geeze, im 20 minutes away with all four gears, that was a looooonnngggg drive at 4000rpm :(

yeah, I kinda like 80 at 2600rpm

put a jet engine in it

I would go with a set of turbos but I hate the sound they make. If I could get turbos that didn't make a ton of noise and need a BOV then I would do it. But until then, I think i'm going with the supercharger. I don't want my car to sound like some honda when the turbos spool up.

Ok if that's the case then I have a sure fire way to get 900 horse out of a small block, and it's super easy..well if you can find the parts. Get yourself a bone stock 350 out of a junk yard, make sure it runs. Get your self any tranny that won't blow up, perferably a 400. Get the the biggest bottle of nos you can find. Find an airplane cilanoied..I can't sepll...it's fucking huhh fuckig huge... and jerry rig it to your air cleaner. oh..and a switch. Gotta have a switch. Turn the bottle up all the way and fill up the system. Hit the gas, flip the switch and hold on tight. That's about a 600 shot of nos. Just make sure you keep your foot on the gas. You'll use the whole damn bottle on one pass I shit you not. Well it works well for street racing, don't know how it would go over at the track though...LOL

www.grapeaperacing.com, www.turbocharged.com, www.turbonetics.com, www.nastyZ28.com

Just a few areas to start your voyage.

P.S: If you plan on super charging you don't need a tunnel ram. Forced induction does not need long intake runners. You also don't need a huge cam because your forcing the intake charge into the cylinders.

70 Z UC, i both agree and disagree with you on that post. first off, i think you are confusing the super ram intake with a carburated tunnel ram set up, this is not the case. the superram is actually a tpi setup with shorter runners than the stock system. not longer. and also, cam size is still important in forced induction setups. a big cam lets in more air/fuel than a small cam, regardless of intake pressure.

I would go with a set of turbos but I hate the sound they make. If I could get turbos that didn't make a ton of noise and need a BOV then I would do it. But until then, I think i'm going with the supercharger. I don't want my car to sound like some honda when the turbos spool up.

Turbos do not need BOV's, espically big shaft turbos. Everyone thinks you need them to save your turbo from compressor surge. The buick GN did not come with one. Neither does the STi. Even the big 2000+hp stage turbo buicks don't have them. I don't have one. oh and your car won't sound like a honda. Have you ever been around a turbocharged v-8 with an open exahust? One of the coolest sounding thing that I have heard. Turbo noise is determined by the size and shape of the turbine wheel and the type of exahust system that is ran. If I was worried about 900 HP I would not really care what it sounded like because 900HP out of a v-8 will sound kick ass no matter what you have on it.

89Iroc---> Let me clarify my wording, you do not need the Valve spring breaking lobes (That are needed on a N/A 900hp motor) on a forced induction setup. You can get away with a much smaller lobe lift making the same 900hp motor more street friendly. Hows that ;)

89IROC&RS .... Would a stock TPI support that much power?? espically with forced induction? I mean after you get the BIG ass injectors, ETC. What kind of computer management would you use. Us Buick guys have stuff like Accel DFI 7.0 and Fel Pro's F.A.S.T. computers. What could he use on that setup. Also I would think that to reccomend what gear to run you would need to know what size slicks he is going to run. ( Lets face it to keep that kind of power on the ground your gonna need slicks.) and what kind of RPM he wants to turn. I agree with you fully on what you said about cam size... It matters even more on a forced air car. Cams for forced cars are generally smaller lift and lower duration. If you took a huge lift and long duration cam and put it in a forced air car. The ammount of air/fuel that you would let in would be way too much for 99% of blocks that are out there. That and forced induction cam's have less valve overlap. To give you an idea a huge street cam for a turbo buick is only a .471 lift and a 218 duration. yea that's only for a 231 v-6 but compare that to perfomance cams for a 281 v-8 mustang. It's only a 50 cubic inch difference. I'm kinda thinking that your going to have to back half the car to get enough tire under that thing to hold that power. If you don't there is no way you will get enough slick under that car to even think about driving it. Man thinking of what you need to be legeal at the track to safely run this car I don't think you can keep it a street car. You will need a chute asuming you break 150 MPH or what ever the dragstrip you run at requires. Plus all the personal protection equipment. (including fire proof underware :smile: ) I don't think a stock GM block big or small can survive 900 HP. I would look into a motown block.

easier to stomach ;) but i would agree that if you built a 900hp NA engine, and then put a turbo or blower on it, you could drop the lift alot to get to the same 900hp mark. but why not keep the big lobes, and make more power ;) besides, as the xtream energy cams have proven, the lift is irrelevent to power, its the cam profile. with a roller cam, you can run very aggressive lobes with optimized area "under the curve" thats where the power comes in.

easier to stomach ;) but i would agree that if you built a 900hp NA engine, and then put a turbo or blower on it, you could drop the lift alot to get to the same 900hp mark. but why not keep the big lobes, and make more power ;) besides, as the xtream energy cams have proven, the lift is irrelevent to power, its the cam profile. with a roller cam, you can run very aggressive lobes with optimized area "under the curve" thats where the power comes in.


to keep the big lobes with forced induction you would "overstuff" the cylinder. That could cause hydrolock

hypsy, well no, a stock TPI has no chance in hell of supporting 900 hp. but a forced induction superram system has a good chance. i mean alot of drag cars use a dominator carb. that flows around 1200cfm, the superram flows 1000cfm so its pretty close air wise. and yes you would have to use larger fuel injectors, thanx for bringing that up, i totally forgot about that. but the stock computer has a chance, im not really sure about it exactly, no experience of pushin it taht far. but it has the same programable perameters as the aftermarket stuff. just maybe not quite as how you say, designed for the task. if he has the money you also brought up another very good point with the accel DFI 7.0 to go with the superram intake. im just stuck in a budget state of mind cuz thats where i am. :) but i have seen naturally asperated superram smallblocks (406cid) running around 600hp, add another 48ci, and forced induction, and i think that 800 is pretty much a no brainer, and then an additional 100 is in the details, fuel mapping spark curves, thermal coatings, anti friction coatings. and all that. better cam, (think they were using an LT4 HOT cam.) so its very doable.

eh, it would really only "overstuff" if you kept a high compression. you would have to lower the compression of the naturally asperated to run the forced induction. the cam size is pretty much irrelivent. it would just determine the rpm peak and range of the engine.

At max boost of lets say 15 psi even if your compression is 8.0:1. your cylender pressure is still 240 PSI

hypsy, well no, a stock TPI has no chance in hell of supporting 900 hp. but a forced induction superram system has a good chance. i mean alot of drag cars use a dominator carb. that flows around 1200cfm, the superram flows 1000cfm so its pretty close air wise. and yes you would have to use larger fuel injectors, thanx for bringing that up, i totally forgot about that. but the stock computer has a chance, im not really sure about it exactly, no experience of pushin it taht far. but it has the same programable perameters as the aftermarket stuff. just maybe not quite as how you say, designed for the task. if he has the money you also brought up another very good point with the accel DFI 7.0 to go with the superram intake. im just stuck in a budget state of mind cuz thats where i am. :) but i have seen naturally asperated superram smallblocks (406cid) running around 600hp, add another 48ci, and forced induction, and i think that 800 is pretty much a no brainer, and then an additional 100 is in the details, fuel mapping spark curves, thermal coatings, anti friction coatings. and all that. better cam, (think they were using an LT4 HOT cam.) so its very doable.

to take that 600 HP and to just strap on a method of forced induction. could not happen to do that as you know you would have to drop the compression so your base of 600 HP is gone becasue to get 600 hp out of a NA engine has to be running some high compressionn raitos. Your talking about another 300 hp :eek:. Thats not just a piddly ammount of power to just add.

Hope you don't take this as an arguing and trying to prove you wrong. Just a little discussion between two gearheads.

P.S. I know this is off topic but is anyone watching the packer raider game?? Farve had like 380 some yards of passing in the first half :eek: . I hate the packers but damn. Thats good

does anyone have a video of a tt camaro? I want to see/hear it.

www.grapeaperacing.com

Quote* to take that 600 HP and to just strap on a method of forced induction. could not happen to do that as you know you would have to drop the compression so your base of 600 HP is gone becasue to get 600 hp out of a NA engine has to be running some high compressionn raitos. Your talking about another 300 hp . Thats not just a piddly ammount of power to just add.

Hope you don't take this as an arguing and trying to prove you wrong. Just a little discussion between two gearheads.

hey no prob hypsy, love a good challenge ;) but that is a good point about dropping compression ruining the baseline. but its also a matter of how much boost are you running? you can run a 10:1 with 5-8 psi boost with proper tuning. ive seen it done. and on a 350 V8 that small ammount of boost can add 150hp to the baseline. on a less than optimized engine. the engine he is talking about is optimized to get every last bit of power, so the boost, especially on the bigger engine, would make more power, say 200. much less added than to the weaker motor, say 150 added to 300 as opposed to 200 added to the 600, but very doable. with no major changes to the engine. to run the 15psi you are talking about, yes you would have to drop compression, but the ammount of boost you are talking about would make up for it. at least from my experience. i could be wrong, but hey, its me, so thats very unlikely ;) lol

yea it's doable. Just my main consernn is the stock block that would be used to make this power. 900+ hp is alot of lateral force on the main and rod berings and jornals. and alot of RPM. Has anyone accually established if he wants this to be a street car or not??? if not then who cares. Build it to go fast then fix it when it breaks. If so then this is going to be one hell of a project.

oh no doubt, for 900 hp, i think a well preped stock 400 would work, maybe with some hardblock in the water passeges. but aftermarket is always better for that kinda deal

Yes I want to use this car on the street, and yes I know its gonna use gas like there's no tommorow. I was thinking of an aftermarket race block. Any recomendations??

world, merlin, bowtie, motown, ......... um thats all i can think of off the top of my head.

World, Merlin, and Motown are all from World products by the way. :D

motown all the way.... Your going to have to tub and narrow your car in order to get enough tire under your car to put that kind of power to the ground. Your going need some seriouuuus meat to do that.

have no fear, my rice eater will have 345's out back. and 245's up front

lol, how many inches is 345??? that what 10.5inches??? methinks youll need a bit more than that, i would go with 15inchers, but thats me. if you can hook up with 10.5's go for it. oh and my bad with listing the same company three times *blushes* thanx for the info 92RS. but i would probly reccomend the bowtie block, but i like to use as many GM parts as i can. and of course the bowtie block has a very solid rep.

Well, actually 345's are 13.5inches. Unfortunatly this project may need to wait until the fall to be started, since I just found out that i'm moving to the Chicago area.

Well, actually 345's are 13.5inches. Unfortunatly this project may need to wait until the fall to be started, since I just found out that i'm moving to the Chicago area.

I live about 2 hours south of the chicago area.... Welcome to Illinois... Home of the neverending rows of corn.

You might need more than 13.5" espically if you are going to do it on the road.

No prob Iroc, we seem to have a steady flow of correcting one another. I like to use GM products too there also cheaper..but I also like stickers and I can't put a Motown sticker with a bowtie block..lol

lol, well 92RS at least you have your priorities strait :)

I live about 2 hours south of the chicago area.... Welcome to Illinois... Home of the neverending rows of corn.

You might need more than 13.5" espically if you are going to do it on the road.

If hes a competent driver he should be able to drive a 900 RWHP car on the street with a 345 drag radial. My friends old mustang was very streetable with 850 RWHP and 900+ RWTQ and all he ran were 27x10.5 E/T streets mounted on widened stock ponies.

Man you better have a very light foot for that.

yeah, id be grinning like an idiot with rubber smoke following me everywhere, even after i got out of the car :)

yeah when i order te tires i'll need to buy two sets, because i know im gonna go through a whole set in one day. I'm the typical dump the clutch at 4k person. I know i'll be asking for a lot of trouble taking this on the street.

lol, and in the catagory of most dramatic understatment, we have a winner!!!!

4K is that it?? C'mon get it to 5K..wait, I don't shift till almost 6K Well hell with a 900RWHP you can spin that fucker to 8 probably. Good thing the smell of burning rubber is a turn on. :P

well I think i'm the only person with tread marks inside my garage. I have an obcession with dumping the clutch. and yeah, 4k is under normal driving. when I race, need to get somewhere on time, ect i can assure you that I hit 6k in at least 1st and 2nd.

Well, I have tread marks coming out of my parking space. I don't have a garage. :(