aluminum blocks

are there any other aluminum blocks besides ls1/lt1?

There are hundreds of kinds.

the new ecotec in gm cars, 2.2L, prolly not what you're looking for though.

many, but the LT1 isn't aluminum, it's iron.

they make some lt1/ls1 of alumium, and some of iron-but you've gotta go w/ the iron block of course. especially when you're getting up to 600hp, alumium is light and great and all but it just can't handle power like that.

they make some lt1/ls1 of alumium, and some of iron-but you've gotta go w/ the iron block of course. especially when you're getting up to 600hp, alumium is light and great and all but it just can't handle power like that.
What are you smoking?

are there any other aluminum blocks besides ls1/lt1?

Are you talking about the LT5 ? http://www.zr1.net/gifs/polishedlt54.jpe

they make some lt1/ls1 of alumium, and some of iron-but you've gotta go w/ the iron block of course. especially when you're getting up to 600hp, alumium is light and great and all but it just can't handle power like that.

There are numberous LS1s on tsock internals doing over 600 HP firstly, secondly there are many doing more on the stock block with rebuilds. The 1100 HP lingenfelter TT utilizes an aluminum block as well, there is no issue with holding power.

And there was never an aluminum LT1, ever. Not the LT1, not the LT4 either, they are all iron block. A certain few had aluminum heads, the performance versions, and some had iron, more for hte caprice lineup and such, but none have ever had aluminum blocks.

ok, FYRHWK1 you're right, they didn't make aluminum LT1's and i'm sry for openning my mouth before i completely knew about it. but i still stand by aluminum LS1's, you can even buy them here: http://www.cmotorsports.com/engine/ls1-ls6-aluminum-crateengines.html but i never said anything about redoing the internals oh any engine, so i'm kinda lost on that. but i would still reccommend iron blocks over aluminum b/c the bottom line is they're stronger.

Alumium blocks can handle more power then any streetable car can put to the ground, iron blocks are no longer needed for their strength characteristics, they're still used because it costs less to produce them.

Alumium blocks can handle more power then any streetable car can put to the ground, iron blocks are no longer needed for their strength characteristics, they're still used because it costs less to produce them.
This depends on what block you talk about; in general older cast iron blocks tend to be stronger than newer aluminum blocks (because of weight savings). Aluminum does also loose strength over time while a used iron block can be stronger than a new one.

seasoned iron is the real deal man.
Used iron blocks are great for turbo motors.
usually after about 50k the block is significantly stronger.

yo mustang, is that a riced up mustang in ur signature?

and does aluminum make up for its strength with its weight? aluminum is like 40% lighter than iron. i thought aluminum would be more durable than iron.

Durable? No... Aluminum has a lower fatigue strength.

This depends on what block you talk about; in general older cast iron blocks tend to be stronger than newer aluminum blocks (because of weight savings). Aluminum does also loose strength over time while a used iron block can be stronger than a new one.

True, it has no minimal stress failure like iron and steel do, so even the smallest vibration can kill it over time, but they've been used for years now, even before new forging and metals technology came around, and many are still running with hundreds of thousands of miles on them. Sure they're stronger, but when has anyone here seen a newer aluminum block fail? I can't say I've heard of one myself.

no, that is crazy r!ced out honda crap.
I put that in as a joke actually.
as far as aluminum being "stronger" than steel, no it is not, but that is to say the aluminum is not as strong as steel given the same mass, but because it weighs less, more of it can be used to make up the difference, and in the end, you have a lighter engine over all, with the same or nearly the same strength.
thankfully it is being used in chassis like the new Jag. It is very comperable to carbon fibre considering the price. honeycombed aluminum is up to 40% stronger than solid steel frames, and 60% lighter.

I don't believe that. Honeycombed aluminum being 40% stronger than solid steel? Give me some more details.

actually I got the numbers reversed.
according to jaguar, the new frame is 92 kg lighter than the previous steel model. The result is a body that is 40 percent lighter and 60 percent stiffer than the previous model XJ8.
even more impressive actually.

Not that this has anything to do with Honeycombed aluminum. But more for the aluminum block end of things. http://bmeltd.com/Dragster/images/engine.jpg
engine displacement 500 cubic inches
power 6000 horsepower at
8200 rpm
weight 2150 lbs.
wheelbase 300 in.
engine block Keith Black/Chrysler Hemi,
Stage 10, aluminum

that looks expensive!
top fuel I assume?

Yes that one was top fuel. But they use aluminum blocks in funny cars aswell. But when they let go......
http://www.autoimagery.com/fc.jpg

yeah, that's a dangerous sport to say the least.
not formula 1 dangerous, but close.
Magnesium blocks are the next hot thing I'm hearing they are even lighter than aluminum with about the same charachteristics.
more expensive of course.

Magnesium blocks are the next hot thing I'm hearing they are even lighter than aluminum with about the same charachteristics.
I dont see that working out. Magnesium burns :screwy: plus once it starts burning water only makes it burn hotter. Funny, but as I type this I see on the news theres a magnesium plant in Ohio thats on fire and its raining :eek2:

The magnesium blocks you're hearing about are to made from a new alloy developed in Australia, called AMC-SC1. It's not reactive, at least not until molten, which is around 1200°F. So, magnesium alloy engine blocks - good; magnesium alloy turbo manifolds - maybe not. They won't be quite as strong as aluminum, but I would imagine that they would a girdle or something to make up for this. They won't be cheap either, but we're all willing to spend lots of money on other lightweight components, aren't we?

Aluminum vs. iron: iron is stronger, hands down. Aliuminum is lighter, yes. It is also a better conductor. Is it worth it? Well, that depends. I like to use this classic example:

The Nissan Silvia (similar to 240SX in this country) was, once-upon-a-time, powered by the CA18DET. 100% cast iron. The block was strong (although the stretch bolts weren't). The engine was expensive to build (thanks to variable intake inlets, direct ignition, etc.), so Nissan created the SR20DET. The new motor was all aluminum, but weighed nearly the same as the CA18. Why? Simple: to be as strong as the old motor, the SR20's block had to be made much thicker. In the end, the weight difference was negligable, the engine was much bigger, and only cheaper because of other design differences.

So, which is better? If you're running a lot of boost, take the detonation resistance of good 'ol iron. If weight savings are your top priority, wait for that magnesium alloy to hit the shelves. If you prioritize weight savings slightly lower, then go with aluminum. :cwm27:

this is where i got the idea that aluminum is stronger.. www.cnblocks.com

Where on that site? I can't find it...

Where on that site? I can't find it...
"These are the ultimate Small Block Chevrolet aluminum blocks. Our blocks are made from special forged aluminum billets. This means that our blocks are stronger than any cast aluminum blocks." oh.... he meant stronger than cast ALUMINUM blocks.

yeah, forged is stronger than cast.
that goes for all metals.

you guys forgot one thing...sleeving...some good alloy sleeves will make up somewhat up for a weaker aluminum block

true, but you must be careful of bimetal corrosion, because when two different metals come into direct contact with eachother (no paint, etc) you are asking for corrosion.

true, but you must be careful of bimetal corrosion, because when two different metals come into direct contact with eachother (no paint, etc) you are asking for corrosion.


you mean the two metals will react with each other?

Interesting i did not think that metals react that easily with each other...ah well i'm not a chemist

yeah, that's a dangerous sport to say the least.
not formula 1 dangerous, but close.
Magnesium blocks are the next hot thing I'm hearing they are even lighter than aluminum with about the same charachteristics.
more expensive of course.
Magnesium alloy blocks have been used in the past, for example in Audi 80 IMSA. Today engine builders seems to dislike magnesium alloys, almost all high performance blocks are cast aluminum (forged isn't possible, non watercooled engines excluded), a few have been aluminum-beryllium (very expensive, high strength-to-weight, superior stiffness-to-weight) and I've also heard talk about high strength steel but I believe that's difficult to cast because of the extremely thin walls needed.

is titanium an option?
even if it's not, I say if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
alluminum is cheap (fairly) and works great.

SaabJohn - http://www.cnblocks.com/info.htm shows a V8 block (supposedly forged aluminum) /w coolant channels.

Oh, and about the Top Fuel reference - why do you think they still use Hemi-style blocks?

just to clear up,

aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel, but by weight, aluminum has a clear cost disadvantage which is offset by the fact you can make 3 times as many same-size parts from aluminum compared to steel.

For fabrication purposes, the biggest disadvantage of aluminum is its low modulus of elastisity. Under the same load, an aluminum part will bend 3 times as much as a steel part. Since elastisity is difficult to enhance by heat treatment and alloying, aluminum parts often have ribs or the like to improve strength.

There are aluminum alloys that have tensile characteristics, except for ductility, that come close to High Strength Low Alloy structural steels. Aluminum alloys have a better strength-to-weight ratio than steel, but wear, creep and fatigue properties are relatively poor. That said, aluminum alloys rapidly begin to lose strength compared to steels above 150 deg. Celcius and at elevated pressures, especially when also subjected to friction, so an aluminum block needs to be made quite strong (heavy). Aluminum is cheaper and slightly lighter to make blocks with in the end and as has been said, its strength has been proven so either way you are getting a good block no matter what its made of. so enjoy.

(just wanted to clear up. :) I thought I heard someone say steel was stronger on a strength-to-weight basis, which its not. Be careful what terms you use.)

The reason Alluminum is more expensive is mostly because of the way it has to be machined, which is much more environmentally damaging than steel, and in addition to that, it has to be machined longer. I am not a machinist, but my father in law is, and he says it's a pain compared to steel.

whats so environmentally damaging about machining aluminum? I started working with it in high school and never had a problem machining, casting, extruding or forging. The reason its more expensive is because the process used to refine aluminum ores requires huge ammounts of electrcity.

Today there are high strength steels with up to 2400 MPa tensile stength, they have a better strength-to-weight ratio than aluminum.

Soft aluminum alloys can be difficult to machine, on the other hand a hard high strength steel can be very difficult to machine.

Forged blocks can be watercooled if they have wet liners, or possibly with an open deck design. But note that the shape of the final product shall not differ that much from the forging then they have lost their advantage.

In large serial production machining should always be kept to a minimum, both of economical and environmental reasons.

Titanium alloys have been used in blocks, for example the Ferrari 3.5 litre F1 engine from 1989 used it. Titanium is however difficult to cast which has limited it, today it's used in the casings of the F1 gearboxes.

For a high performance cylinder head I've would have used aluminum-beryllium, mainly because of it's excellent thermal conductivity, low density and high stiffness-to-weight ratio. But the finished product can cost as much as $3000 per kg. The block and bottom end can probably be made in AlBe too or in aluminium matrix composite or high strength steel (maybe with an amount of ceramics in it to stiffen it up). Crankshafts can also be made of high strength steel with ceramics to increase stiffness.

SJ - what do you think of a Ti (let's say 6242S alloy, or maybe even Beta-CEZ alloy) crankshaft whose crank throws are oval-section, with Hy-Bor (similar to CF but with better properties) reinforcing wrap?

[QUOTE=SaabJohan]Today there are high strength steels with up to 2400 MPa tensile stength, they have a better strength-to-weight ratio than aluminum.

QUOTE]

Well if you want to nitpick, I assume you are referring to maraging steels (very low carbon, high nickel content). I left these out of the comparison because due to their multistep alloying and heat treatment procedures, the cost is immense to the point where they are only used where their strength is absolutely nessessary and would never be used for an engine block. But thanks for adding fuel to the disscussion.

Marging steel or toolsteel can reach those strengths (well toolsteel up to around 5000 MPa but I don't think they are so suitable for engine parts).

Those high strength titanium alloys I would have used for valves or conrods instead. The crankshaft can be made out of something like this:

"SYNTHESIS AND PHASE EQUILIBRA IN TiB2 PARTICLE REINFORCED HIGH MODULUS STEEL: Kouji Tanaka, Tadashi Oshima, and Takashi Takashi Saito, Toyota Central R&D Labs, Inc., 41-1 Yokomichi, Nagakute, Aichi, 480-11, JAPAN

This paper describes the synthesis of high modulus steel for automobile parts with an emphasis on its alloy-designing concept and phase equilibrium. Titanium diboride (TiB2) particles have been verified to be the best reinforcement for improving isotropic Young's modulus of steels. The calculated phase diagram shows that TiB2 has a narrow tow-phase equilibrium window with carbon-free Fe-Cr-Ti ferric steel and has neither solubility of iron nor chromium. Those thermo-dynamical stability's of TiB2 are responsible for maintaining its own high Young's modulus of 540GPa in the ferocity steel. Both pre-mixed and in-situ TiB2 particles effectively reinforced the ferocity steel matrix. The developed steel with 30vol.%TiB2 showed a Young's modulus of 280GPa which apparently corresponded to 350GPa due to its reduced density of 6.6g/cc compared with 7.8g/cc of the conventional steel."

The counterweights of the crankshaft can then be made of heavymetal (tungsten alloy) or depleted uranium, either in the form of plugs or weights whichs are screwed into the crank.

The crankshaft can then be finished with a layer of diamond like coating.

Peugeot F1 crank with screwed counterweights:
http://fineartscrimshaw.com/pug5L.jpg
http://fineartscrimshaw.com/pug6L.jpg
it's my guess that they have spend some time on the design of it since crankshaft oscillation is a large problem for F1 engines

Any more information on that particular MMC? Looks very interesting.

Aluminum Heads and Iron Block = Cracked Head :(

The metal dont do the same thing in heat..

says who?
Many cars use alluminum heads with no problems, including me. Very popular in muscle cars.