question for gsxracer #2

Not really a question but whatever....

What im trying to get at is...your post (hp doesnt win
races)...it didnt get to the point....like you had to
read everything twice, or thrice, and then some on the
link you gave out. Im telling you this why? Becuase,
you kept saying (also said on that other site) its
better to make tq in a higher rpm becuase you can take
advantage of gearing.....Now....I was like,
"hrm...this is good, i wanna know how to build my car
with more brains than bucks (tuning). So when reading
through everything it got real interesting, like wow!
This is the most amazing info i have ever read, no
one i know know's about any of this! I got confused
the first time through so i read again...only to
realize, basically, all of that information is to only
learn how to calc hp and tq, and learn about some
physics and math that is put into cars. I waisted my
time? No.....but all im saying is it lead me, and maby
some others in the wrong direction.

Having tq peak in a higher rpm doesnt give you the
advantage of gearing....you basically have more
hp...thats it, thats all, simple.....end of
story...but, am i right about all this?

I was thinking for about 2 times reading through that
if you have the same car weight, same tq, same hp,
same skilled driver, but one car makes that tq in a
higher rpm range, that you'll pass on the horizon
faster even with the same hp....NO! YOU, SIMPLY HAVE
MORE HP!

I understand fully that hp has nothing to do with how
fast a car can go, b/c there is the driver, weight of
the car, and other factors in there. But if everything
is the same, except the tq, it has NOTHING to do with
taking advatange of gearing....

On the link you gave out....they write an example
comparing L98 and LT1 piece-o-shit vette's. Now, it
explains that the LT1, making the same tq but in a
higher rpm range would win the race becuase it takes
advantage of gearing. Then agian, it puts out about
50 more horses....anyone who doesnt know about the stuff you explained could look at those stats and say right away, the LT1 would win, becuase of Hp. No one would say, oh, i know why, cuz of gearing....

But wait, lets say that LT1 made 320 tq at 4300 rpm...which is less than the L98 but will make a bit more hp than the L98. I think that makes sense, but the in the example, the LT1 given would win becuase of the hp made, and thats what people look for...

So that "not real" LT1 makes less tq but more hp, but would making your tq peak at a higher rpm. How could this be done, fuel controling and engine manigment?

sorry for me being so vague...

Not really a question but whatever....

What im trying to get at is...your post (hp doesnt win
races)...it didnt get to the point....like you had to
read everything twice, or thrice, and then some on the
link you gave out.

Thats because if you don't already know the theories being used to find those numbers, it can be a hard concept to grasp and will need to be read a few times to get a grasp of the concepts.

Im telling you this why? Becuase,
you kept saying (also said on that other site) its
better to make tq in a higher rpm becuase you can take
advantage of gearing.....Now....I was like,
"hrm...this is good, i wanna know how to build my car
with more brains than bucks (tuning). I got confused
the first time through so i read again...only to
realize, basically, all of that information is to only
learn how to calc hp and tq, and learn about some
physics and math that is put into cars. I waisted my
time? No.....but all im saying is it lead me, and maby
some others in the wrong direction.


That was the point of the discussion, and the only way to prove what happens in the real world was with formulas and science, since this was what was used to design the cars in the first place.

Having tq peak in a higher rpm doesnt give you the
advantage of gearing....you basically have more
hp...thats it, thats all, simple.....end of
story...but, am i right about all this?

I was thinking for about 2 times reading through that
if you have the same car weight, same tq, same hp,
same skilled driver, but one car makes that tq in a
higher rpm range, that you'll pass on the horizon
faster even with the same hp....NO! YOU, SIMPLY HAVE
MORE HP! I understand fully that hp has nothing to do with how
fast a car can go, b/c there is the driver, weight of
the car, and other factors in there. But if everything
is the same, except the tq, it has NOTHING to do with
taking advatange of gearing....

On the link you gave out....they write an example
comparing L98 and LT1 piece-o-shit vette's. Now, it
explains that the LT1, making the same tq but in a
higher rpm range would win the race becuase it takes
advantage of gearing. Then agian, it puts out about
50 more horses....anyone who doesnt know about the stuff you explained could look at those stats and say right away, the LT1 would win, becuase of Hp. No one would say, oh, i know why, cuz of gearing....I understand fully that hp has nothing to do with how
fast a car can go, b/c there is the driver, weight of
the car, and other factors in there. But if everything
is the same, except the tq, it has NOTHING to do with
taking advatange of gearing....


If we move the peak TQ higher in the RPM (therefore making more HP)range it will alow us to take advantage of our taller gearing in the 5-speed transmissions. since you are staying in the gears longer, if you move the peak HP and TQ higher in the RPM range where the car will be running you will be putting more usable HP tho the ground and there for be running faster.

I hope what i said will help you understand what the first thread was trying to explain. And i am sure 95_GSXracer will come and give a better explanation. :thumbsup:

i had a bunch of explanation going but i just deleted it all...
there is indeed logic in torque-at-higher-rpm being better for those of us without CVT's. it makes sense and im sorry that im too tired to try and explain it. if we're lucky gsxracer will share a simple explanation to make us feel dumb. i have no explaination except for it's true as far as i know.

Some of my "articles" may be hard to grasp the first time. Like I said earlier, its hard to get all of the thoughts that are so simple in my head that I take them for granted, and then try to organize them on paper (or screen). This stuff is so interdependant on so many other topics, you could bounce back and forth between them all for hours and still not get through it, and it wont make any sense. :)

You are somewhat right in what you say, but we just have to remember that we are stuck with what we have when we buy a car. Especially imports. We cant easily change gearing in a dSM. Any car with any TQ at whatever rpm will run a certain mph for that HP (and weight), if its geared correctly. Its when we start to change the HP or the rpm its made at then we need to start thinking about this stuff. That being said...

Having tq peak in a higher rpm doesnt give you the
advantage of gearing....you basically have more
hp...thats it, thats all, simple.....end of
story...but, am i right about all this?

The important thing to consider is in fact that its just more HP. But you cant tell me that being able to stay in first and second for example for another 1000 rpm wouldnt be an advantage. This is a very realistic example. Most people shift stock dSMs around 6-7k rpm. (In fact, on a 2g with the t25 I went half second faster by dropping my shift points in every gear except first from 7k to 6k. Why? You get shyte for high rpm torque on a t25) Add in a bigger turbo, intake manifold, and cams, and not only will HP go up, but you can shift at 8000 rpm. Thats more time spent with more wheel torque, which coincidently means more time spent at more wheel HP ;) Which means more work is done across the track in less time, or better ET faster MPH.

Perhaps the missing key to that discussion is shift point selection. But we can talk about that later.

I was thinking for about 2 times reading through that
if you have the same car weight, same tq, same hp,
same skilled driver, but one car makes that tq in a
higher rpm range, that you'll pass on the horizon
faster even with the same hp....NO! YOU, SIMPLY HAVE
MORE HP!

The part you are missing here is that it would be impossible for one car to make the same toruqe as the other one, but higher in the rpm range, and still have the same HP. ;)


But fundamentally I think you are right. We already know that mph at the end of the track is almost entirely based on hp (to weight). What the discussion is more about is how do we run the same mph as the big v8 motors that have way more torque than us? More rpm. HP comes out the same. They run taller gearing so they dont run out of rpm, which kills thier wheel torque. We run lower gearing since we can rev higher, multiplying our weaker torque more. If we had the same gearing they did, we'd get molested all the way down the track. But because we can take advantage of gearing, we can keep up. But ultimately you are right, its about the HP, and being geared accordingly. No matter how you look at if though, you can see that torque doesnt matter here. Now, wheel torque between the cars will be similar (along with HP), because of gearing, but the actual motor torque numbers are quite different. And the outcome would be the same results at the track. That is the essense of the whole hp vs tq arguement.

Also ponder this. Hp at the wheels is the same no matter what gear ratio you use, or what gear you are in. If your 1st gear puts you at 3:1, and you 4th gear puts you at 1:1, you have 3 times as much torque at the wheels in 1st as you do in 3rd. But wheel HP doesnt change. Why? Rpm. ;) In first you will get more torque, but at a lower wheel rpm. The same forumla applies here as when you figure out HP at the motor. In the higher gears, you get less wheel torque (less toruqe mulitplication in the gears) but at higher rpm. Same HP as before. You can run some numbers, it works out. This is why it doesnt matter what gear you dyno in, the results are the same. But also remember that vehicle acceleration will be directly proportional to wheel torque. This is why you can accelerate harder in 1st than you do in 5th. Same whp, different result ;) Just remember that that is instaneous, we are worried about peformance over distance/time, and we cant stay in first forever. But if we could "take advatage of gearing" by running first to the finish line without running out of rpm, we'd carry that same torque mulitiplication and high rate of acceleration all the way down the track. ;) But we cant do that, and the compromise is going to progressively taller and taller gearing (2nd, 3rd, etc).

I forgot where I was going with all this, and this could go on forver. I have to take break. Keep the discussion going :biggrin:

i get it

Sorry Ive been busy playing need for speed:underground and installing some things on my car.

I think my real question was, how would you make ur tq peak at a higher rpm range, is it just tuning (fuel controllers, EMS), 'cuz in order for me to actualy use this information, i want to know how to do it.

mods:
rsr 3.0 inch cat-back
1g blow-off valve
greddy profec B boost controller
k&N filter

tuning and bolting on parts. I know that you can bolt on a new intake manifold and with the proper supproting mods and tuning it can make gains of 30-40 HP. 95_GSXracer explained it to me in a thread already. i am sure you could search "intake manifold" and you will find some more info. hope that helps. :thumbsup:

EDIT>>>>> I went and found that intake manifold thread for you it was on the 3 page of the "HP doesnt win races" thread. so here is what Kevin had to say.

original question by me

"So on a different note, the point of the sheetmetal intake manifold that magnus motorsports and who ever else sell are to raise where the peak torque accures in the RPM range correct?"

Kevins response

"Correct. Im sure most poeple understand the concept of tuning where tq peaks by varying the length of the "header" runners in NT cars. The same principle applies to the intake manifold. Longer runners are better for low end torque, and the stockers are made with this in mind. The aftermarket intakes all have MUCH shorter runners, and large plenums, all to flow tons of air at high rpm. You do lose some low end, but since we have the turbo to make up for it, its not the same magnitude of a compromise it will be on a NT car. Same reason we can run 3" exhausts and its all good. Intake manifold can not only add 30-40 HP, but move peak power from 6500 where it will peak with stock manifold, to about 7k. That means you can now rev to 8k plus and still be making good power. Which brings us right back to the gearing discussion again"

Thank you so much, I understand this whole thing now, i think. One more thing though, what else can raise your peak tq besides the intake manifolds and headers.

Cams are another big one. Head porting to some degree as well since velocity at low-mid rpms may drop depending on how it was done. Etc. Tuning really donest affect it, since you should be tuned for optimum power at all rpms on your given setup. Also, adding lag will move power up in the rpm range, but its not really the same ;) A turbo with a very free flowing ehxuast side will help tremendously at high rpm, but you get more lag hurting low-mid performance obviously. But in the end the tradeoff is worth it for drag racing purposes of you can stand it around town. For other types of racing this obviously isnt the best way to go. A maller turbo, paired with the other high rpm mods like cams and manifold however will do very well in road racing, etc.

ok i may be wrong on this, but i think my cam gears have made the most effect on my cars hp and tq (well besides turning up the boost). they are adj cam gears and i got them set like this intake cam 2º adv, and my exhaust is still at zero till it get to the dyno or track to tune it.

Cam gears can move your TQ peak around a little for sure, but they dont make the same change as cams or intake manifold will. Part of Dre's secret to making 503 whp on pump gas was his cam timig though, but I dont believe he will say what he did ;)

Tuning really donest affect it, since you should be tuned for optimum power at all rpms on your given setup.

when i mentioned tuning that is what i meant by it. making sure you tune your car for all the parts you bolt on. you wont make the gains from the parts unless you spend time setting the car up for them.

:werd: and its so nice when its tuned right and running perfect, for those five minutes its like car heaven! :icon16: