09R and Hitotsuyama solved...

Hi I'm new here. Been nuts about the McLaren F1 GTR for years. Hopefully the information I can add is new to everyone

09R... Couple years ago "Le Man Series & Sportscar Racer" had an article about where Le Mans winning cars are now. It stated that 01R was still owned by McLaren Cars and that a replica was made for the Sultan of Brunei. I believe this to be the Ueno grey 09R. The colour name is reference to Ueno Clinic, sponsor of the 01R.
The following summer I found probable proof. "Autocar" had an article about the Sultans collection including photos. In the background and barely visible in one such photo, is what appears to be the Ueno Clinic car! It has to be 09R, it makes so much sense.

The West Adrenaline car... That seems to be mistaken for 09R is therefore probably 04R which appears to be a spare GTR retained by McLaren. It was crashed heavily in only its 3rd BPR race at Monza in '95, and reappeared over 12 months later, in the final '96 AJGT round at Mine as replacement for a damaged 14R.

Hitotsuyama car.. Well its not an "SP" or 29R. Its in actual fact 25R. How do I know? Well I e-mailed Hitotsuyama Racing and asked them!
25R was entered in 3 FIA GT rounds and Le Mans in '97 by Gulf Team Davidhoff. It featured strongly at Le Mans, before its race was ended by fire. The car never appeared again that season, and probably becoming the GTR'97 spare tub. Hitotsuyama aquired 025R in 1999 and raced it with moderate success in the AJGT.

So can anyone tell me which F1 GTR AMG aquired to develop the Mercedes CLK-GTR running gear?

that information was helpful. the 01R replica you speak of could actually be infact one of the infamous and elusive black F1 LM, LM1 or LM4. do you remember what issue of Autocar it was?

welcome to the board and thanks for sharing that info :)

No - he's right about #09R - it is a Ueno Clinic replica that was built for the Sultan. I had heard a rumor of this before, but the person who told me wasn't 100% positive which car was used. Just a few weeks ago I made a new contact who was able to confirm that it was #09R with 100% certainty. I was going to share when I gathered some more info and possibly even a photo for proof, so don't think I was hoarding the info btw.

His theory on #04R makes sense, especially since we are certain that the West Adrenaline car is a 1995 GTR. Some of the other '95 GTRs aren't accounted for at this point, but #04R makes sense. I'll try to confirm that with my new contact as well.

The Hitotsuyama info kind of makes me mad because I have emailed them at least three times in the period of a year requesting that info and never received one reply. Thumbs up to you for getting through to them Monty! :cool: I wonder why race listings always had the chassis number for the Team Take One "SOK" liveried GTR correct as #19R, but they never had #25R listed for the Hitotsuyama car. :confused:

Oh well - that's great news!! Any chance you have those articles you referred to and can scan them? I'm trying to build an archive of scans or the actual magazines, and tracking those down would probably prove quite difficult indeed.

The GTR that was acquired by AMG was supposedly #07R, the Jacadi liveried GTR that was blue and grey. That car did completely disappear from the scene after the 1995 season, so it's entirely possible that info is accurate. If anyone knows differently, please share.

BTW: Welcome aboard Monty - you've come to the right place if the McLaren F1 is your thing, and you've made a grand entrance as well.

>8^)
ER

Replica? well I bet it sure beats the hell out of that attempted replica on lamorghinireplicas.com, any new info on that Peloton?

-Mike :aus:

Nope, not a thing. It seems to have vanished, which is certainly a good thing in my opinion.

>8^)
ER

I'll try and scan those articles in next couple days Peloton25. You've confirmed info I had about AMG car. 07R may have been restored, hence its change of colour.

Got one pic each of the 07R in its AMG days and the Sultans 09R...

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/121570amg_07r-med.JPG

Schnieder crashed it! I seem to remember!

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/121570brunei_09r.JPG

Sorry Sultan pic is small...its literally in the background of larger photo.

Amazing pix monty. welcome aboard :grinno:

WTF?? Don't tell me that white car is a McLaren. Is It? What is with the back, im gonna throwup. Got ne More pics?

I am still getting over the replica part! Well there you go mini_magic, 109 chassis produced 107 working? now I thought so it's 110 chassis 108 produced!

Now you previously said that jap car is 25R correct? That leaves pare chassis 101 out of the picture and the spare parts car a bigger mystery! We are looking down the barrel of potentially 112 McLaren F1 chassis!

-Mike :aus:

Mike - you seem to be confusing yourself here. Where are you getting those numbers from?

There is no spare parts car - that was what had been reported about the Hitotsuyama car, but it is now proven untrue since they say it is really GTR #25R. Apparently there never was a spare parts car.

The white car in that photo is GTR #07R - taken when it was in AMG's posession while they were developing the CLK GTR. Pretty funny what they have done to it there, but what better way to test out the aerodynamics of the CLK GTR than to use its biggest competitor as the basis for the test mule.

Maybe you can explain what's confusing you a little better and I can help to explain it. Anyway the total of 106 F1s plus 1 spare chassis has not changed in any way at this point.

>8^)
ER

Monty, great pics. Can you please scan in the whole pic for the second one? Thanks!

OK, so existing cars number revised to 105 (106 minus the Chris Dawes car). Right?

i'm sorry but i'm not sure that white car is 07r. look at the side skirts and the roof scoop. that are typical 96gtr features.

i'm sorry but i'm not sure that white car is 07r. look at the side skirts and the roof scoop. that are typical 96gtr features.

Well its entirely possible that AMG bought themselves the '96 update package from McLaren. Anyway, it would have to be a '95 GTR because the development work for the CLK happened in early 1996 and I believe some of the first races they competed in were at the end of the '96 BPR season. There wouldn't have been any '96 GTRs for them to play with until at least 1997.

>8^)
ER

i thought mercedes made their debute in 97..?

Well there you go mini_magic, 109 chassis produced 107 working


:sly: What are you saying here?

i thought mercedes made their debute in 97..?

You're right - it was actually Porsche who showed up with the 911 GT1 in the last few races of 1996 not Mercedes.

>8^)
ER

A stupid question, but I'm not afraid :

Is it possible that the "Ueno Clinic replica" is an LM "black with graphics" instead of a GTR ?

one guy who recently posted on this forums once said that the black LM's had a black top with grey side per the uenoclinic cars with blunting flag styles in red blue and yellow or something, now if it would have been replica's he would have said it. this source is completely reliable.

in notice that in the picture of the white #07R, the rear rascia looks a little different from the standard 1997 F1 GTR.

could someone explain? did AMG Mercedes-Benz team recieve the car like that, or was that a re-work that they did on their own?

I picked a great couple or days to go away :rolleyes: . So much has happend. Stratoraptor, the white car is most probably a 96 GTR (07R), updated to 97 spec. It looks different cause it has had loads of Mercedes GTR developement bits bolted on. The new rear reminds me of an R34 Skyline or the new MG SV.

I'm with jkbon. I think both of the black LMs are 01R replicas. What else could it mean by 'black with graphics'?

what i just said. The source i'm referring to used to work at McLaren. He worked there at the time of the build of the LM's. if they were replica's he would've said it, b/c he described the way they look. If it were replica's he would have said so, because it made an easier job for him.

More confirmation about Hitotsuyama 25R!!

http://www.qv500.com/mclarenf1p10.htm

That's pretty funny Monty, because that used to be the same page that mentioned the Hitotsuyama car being a spare parts car and not having a chassis number. It looks like someone has educated them as well. :D

Ok - one more time now - #09R is the Ueno Replica, and there are also two black LMs in the Sultans collection along with an Orange LM, the black F1 GT, and at least one F1 road car, probably more. That's what is confirmed though up to today.

>8^)
ER

Then whats the West car that tvrfreak saw?

If you read the first post in this thread, Monty suspects that it was actually #04R which is entirely possible as far as I'm concerned.

>8^)
ER

ok, thanks

Hey mini_magic, I asked in a previous thread to you im pretty sure how many cars in total, i can remember u saying 109 chassis and 107 working produced?

Correct me if i am wrong, plus

Peloton, I meant to say how many chassis built not existed. When they say 64 roadcars does that include XPs? Because they include 56XPGT and not XP1LM and I dont see why they wouldn't include XP1-5 in that 64 count. So that could be 106, plus that replica, is that counted? And then the Clinic Car. I am a lil confused about this as I was told by many chassis lists the 25R Car was really spare parts,

-Mike :aus:

Hey sorry mini_magic again. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=147322 "A few questions about the F1"

Here you quite clearly say 107 working chassis, 109 all together. No1 knew about the Replica, so if your calculations are correct 109 +1 = 110.

So then I thought 110 but if in your previous post you counted 25R aswell as the "mystery car" (now discovered) it could subtract and make 109 again I think :)
Ill stop confusing every1 :)

-Mike:aus:

Ok, I could quote all of that, and pick it apart, but it's easier to just list the breakdowns.

64 road cars - these are F1 road cars built for customers from late 1993 to mid 1998 and that number doesn't include the XPs.

28 GTRs - 9 '95 GTRs, 9 '96 GTRs, 10 '97 long tail GTRs. The Ueno Replica was the last of the '95s, #09R.

5 F1 LMs - these are the customer LMs - two of which are black. A total of three including the black ones went to the Sultan, one of the other two is now in the US and the final one is in Japan.

2 F1 GTs - these are the customer GTs. The black one went to Brunei, the Burgundy one to the LM customer in Japan.

Those numbers in bold add up to 99 F1s. That's one shy of the magic number 100 so obviously McLaren Cars decided to roll '56XPGT' into the tally to get their even number.

Then, as you mentioned, that leaves 'XP1 LM' and the 5 XP's road car prototypes (XP1 - XP5) unaccounted for. Add them to the previous '100' and now you have 106 McLaren F1s produced. Then add the spare chassis, which was built, but I do not believe has been used at all anymore, and that brings us to the often quoted number '107'.

The Clinic Model should not be counted as it's not even a true chassis. It was built by a prototyping company called MGA and it's construction would not be the same as the production F1s. Remember it was built in early 1992 and the first running prototype 'XP1' wasn't built until late in 1992. The Clinic Model also was not a runner, meaning it lacked the proper drivetrain components and I'd assume things like the suspension weren't completed either. Think of it as a 1:1 scale model if anything. It should never be included in total number of F1s produced. I even think including the spare chassis is somewhat misleading.

That's it - that's the total chassis history of the McLaren F1. There are no extra cars popping out of the woodwork, just some mysteries being solved here about which car was which. For instance, we used to believe that the West Adrenaline GTR was #09R since no one really knew about the Ueno replica that was built for the Sultan. Now we know that info was incorrect and will have to pursue the real chassis number for the West car - #04R is a good suspect given the evidence. Also, it had been reported that the JGTC Hitotsuyama Racing GTR had been built up from spare parts which led many to believe, including myself, that the spare chassis had been put to use and that there were really 29 GTRs total. Now given new evidence, it would appear that GTR #25R was actually rebuilt using spare parts in order to make it whole again for the Hitotsuyama team. No more mystery GTR...

Anyway - hopefully that sleep deprived rambling will clear up some of the confusion you are having. Don't you have a copy of the 'bible' by the way? I thought you did? :confused:

>8^)
ER

Is the pope a catholic? :icon16:
Thanks for clearing that up, Where is the Clinic Car now? If it ever was for sale what would be a reasonable offer? I guess you might have to include it in the chassis list , its a patchy topic.

+ a little off the topic, but will the new McLaren service centre be viewable to the public? And whats the adress and what is the ratio of the old to new MCL headquaters?

-Mike :aus:

thanks for clearing that all up peloton.

I assume the Clinic car is at McLarens headquaters, but i will call up the beaulea (sp?) museum when i am over in the uk in 2 weeks :)

Where is the Clinic Car now?-Mike

It's at my office. I sit in it and answer phone calls all day. :biggrin:

Had look at "Driving Ambitions" last night, found entry about 07R being sold to AMG. So this chassis has had a rough life! From perfectly good race car... butchered up as a test mule for AMG... before finally being rebuilt as a road legal GTR.. Thank God!!!

It's at my office. I sit in it and answer phone calls all day. :biggrin:

Im sorry? What is this supposed to mean?

-Mike:aus:

It's just a little sarcasm to brighten up your day. ;)

>8^)
ER

It's just a little sarcasm to brighten up your day. ;)

>8^)
ER

Exactly. Since the Clinic Model is a non-running display vehicle I think it would make a great workspace for me. I could build a little refridgerator into one side... and it may even have an internet connection built in! Way way off topic now.

is it possible that if 009R was a replica that it was used for some of the mclaren press shots (the ones of it all clean in a parking lot. Peloton is STILL patching together one of them) and that 001R is still unwashed and untouched and in a bubble or something?

Sort of possible... but #01R (or at least I assume it was) went to Goodwood one year - maybe 1999 or even more recent - and it was clean and beautiful. I guess it could have been the Sultan's then too - back for a service or something, but I sincerely doubt it.

>8^)
ER

it came back in 99? i wasn't aware of that. i thought it only went in 95, just after the race

It was there in 1999.

1999 was the year - It didn't actually participate though it was only on display with some other LeMans winners. Here's a photo from the day - one of the few I have ever seen.

http://ombomb.kicks-ass.org/resources/1999/Goodwood99/Paddock/McLarenF1.jpg

>8^)
ER

thanks man. I just deleted all my mclaren pix (i backed them up of course. they were just stacking up and i had just kept on saving them without sorting them so i put them all on cds and have decided to start over again)

don't worry, you'll get your xp5 pix ;)

I wonder why race listings always had the chassis number for the Team Take One "SOK" liveried GTR correct as #19R, but they never had #25R listed for the Hitotsuyama car. :confused:

>8^)
ER

the Hitotsuyama F1 GTR is listed as #19R on the JGTC listing too :confused:

a webpage translator says the Vehicle type is "19R GTR"
http://www.jgtc.net/race/2003/03team/03tm076.htm

well they're wrong ;) :p

We're discussing this photo on SC.net and I figured that several people here might be interested in seeing it. It is yet another shot of GTR #07R in the hands of AMG during their development of the CLK GTR.

http://speed.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/730797d.jpg

I figured digging up this thread and keeping it with the previous info was more valuable than starting a new one and having to explain things all over again.

>8^)
ER

...07R didn't deserve this!! Happily a whole Mclaren GTR again nowadays :)

We're discussing this photo on SC.net and I figured that several people here might be interested in seeing it. It is yet another shot of GTR #07R in the hands of AMG during their development of the CLK GTR.It's sacrilege I tell you!

I wonder what McLaren's reaction was to this...after all they keep close watch on all the cars.

Hehe - their reaction was to build a nearly identical GTR for the 1997 racing season. :iceslolan

Honestly - the car didn't belong to them, it was Fabien Giroix's to sell to whomever he wanted following the 1995 BPR season. I'd love to know the details of the transaction.

>8^)
ER

sorry its a bit off topic now but somone mentioned a replica, is that true and does anyone have some photos of it?

Honestly - the car didn't belong to them, it was Fabien Giroix's to sell to whomever he wanted following the 1995 BPR season. I'd love to know the details of the transaction.I didn't mean to imply that McLaren would want to "repossess" it, but rather they might refuse to service a car that had been modified in such a deliberate manner by a third party.

sorry its a bit off topic now but somone mentioned a replica, is that true and does anyone have some photos of it?

The replica mentioned was a replica of the #59 LeMans winner that was built using another GTR chassis for the Brunei Royal Family. The only known photo of it is on the first page, but I will copy it here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20J/sultan_ueno_replica.jpg

The car was apparently completed for the BRF by McLaren because they wanted to buy the original and McLaren Cars were not interested in selling it.

= = = = = =

I didn't mean to imply that McLaren would want to "repossess" it, but rather they might refuse to service a car that had been modified in such a deliberate manner by a third party.

Given the value of the car, I wouldn't think that AMG would make any permanent changes to it that would affect their ability to resell it once their development work was completed. It's almost shocking that they would spend the kind of money one assumes would be necessary for a development car like an F1 GTR, but seeing how they probably knew they could recoup the investment it's not so bad.

>8^)
ER

Hey Monty - Welcome back. I assume you have email notification turned on for this thread.

Will you ever be able to contribute more to this particular thread:

British GT Championship GTR's (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=164632)

I'm hoping so, as shots of those liveries (especially the LLoyds one) are extremely rare.

Thanks in advance for anything you can share! :thumbsup:

>8^)
ER

Hello,

I didn't mean to imply that McLaren would want to "repossess" it, but rather they might refuse to service a car that had been modified in such a deliberate manner by a third party.

Today, McLaren is associated with Mercedes :(

Another thing : this is the 07R which is to sell on carclassic ? It is abnormal that they don't mention this fact on the add ? In the same time, it justify the 230,000$ bill :grinno:

Ciao
Phil

Carclassic is just a site that lists cars for sale in different places. They are a broker of sorts. I'm not sure how they actually make money though since most of the cars are advertised by the dealers selling them.

Also, how do we know the AMG car is 007R? Is there any solid proof that it is?

Also, how do we know the AMG car is 007R? Is there any solid proof that it is?

Because I said so... ;) :p

I had a source for the info long ago and have no doubt it's accurate.

>8^)
ER

Because I said so... ;) :p

I had a source for the info long ago and have no doubt it's accurate.

>8^)
ER
So do i and he says differently and i'm 99% sure about my source too.


hummm....

Driving Ambition, page 227:

"Fabian Giroix (GRT) raced a new F1 GTR with J-DD, backed by Franck Muller Technowatch, the swiss watchmaker. AMG meanwhile bought the '95 model and were to use it as a test bed for their forthcoming V12-engined endurance challenger"

The 95 model mentioned is 07R as that was the one GRT owned.

Thank God for Driving Ambition :biggrin:

No - thank god for TcarR! :grinyes:

I thought the reference to this info was in the 'bible', and went looking the other night, but not very hard. I got sidetracked and never went back to it, so thanks for clearing that up.

>8^)
ER

The replica mentioned was a replica of the #59 LeMans winner that was built using another GTR chassis for the Brunei Royal Family. The only known photo of it is on the first page, but I will copy it here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20J/sultan_ueno_replica.jpg

The car was apparently completed for the BRF by McLaren because they wanted to buy the original and McLaren Cars were not interested in selling it.

= = = = = =



Given the value of the car, I wouldn't think that AMG would make any permanent changes to it that would affect their ability to resell it once their development work was completed. It's almost shocking that they would spend the kind of money one assumes would be necessary for a development car like an F1 GTR, but seeing how they probably knew they could recoup the investment it's not so bad.

>8^)
ER

Unfortunatly I can't see the no.59 picture anymore.
I found a scanned wheels article, which said it's Brunei's replica.
Sorry, if it's a repost

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6826/sultan2w.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/sultan2w.jpg/)
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2620/sultan2wsmall.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/sultan2wsmall.jpg/)

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7701/sultan4w.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/sultan4w.jpg/)
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3011/sultan4wsmall.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/sultan4wsmall.jpg/)

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2620/sultan2wsmall.jpg

Is that one of the two black LM's on the left?

Someone - maybe mini magic or basman007 - posted this enhanced shot a few years back.

http://i51.tinypic.com/6dyeq0.jpg

What you are thinking might be the side of one of the black LMs is actually the nose of a silver Dauer 962 instead. The car on the far right is a Jaguar XJR-15 and I forget what some of the others were identified as.

>8^)
ER