It's Official. *Read the disclaimer at the start of the thread!*

Disclaimer: This thread is my own current personal opinion and not something I ever plan on taking action on. This thread deals with my views on the United States, so if you're a hardcore, die-for-my-country, America rules the world kind of person, you might as well leave now. This thread in no way implicates that I judge, or ever plan on judging US citizens based on my feelings towards the country itself. I have several very good friends that are US citizens and they are good people. This thread will use "the US" as a general statement referring to the stereotypical asshole citizen, whom I hope is not you. This thread may contain occasional strong language. Now, if you're still interested in my rant that I have to get out of my system, read on. :)

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Fuck the United States.

I'm sick of it. Things have just been getting worse and worse and I can't bottle this in any longer. There are several things ranging from personal annoyances to world scale mistakes, but all bug me equally.

First off, who the hell gives the US the right to meddle in other countries affairs? Who the hell gives the US the right to overthrow a government because they don't like the way it's being run? That's like those fuckers at the mall who want you arrested if you discipline your child. :rolleyes: I've seen Americans ask on here before why everyone hates their country, and most blame it all on jealousy. "We're so much better, stronger, smarter than all of you foreigners, you're just jealous of us." Riiiiighttt.............. Let me tell you why the world hates the US. The world hates the US because the US is both the school jock and the school bully at the same time, equaling one big pain in the ass. The jock is the epitome of self-righteousness and egotism. No one is better than me, I'm the smartest, I'm the prettiest, I'm the richest. I get what I want because everyone else wants to be me, and if they don't, well I'll just unleash the bullies on them. The bully decides what and whom he likes and doesn't like, and does all in his power to make what he doesn't like miserable. I don't like you. I don't like the way you smell. I don't like that pimple on your forehead. I'm gonna pummel you until you agree, and if you don't agree, I'll pummel you some more. One phrase that always sends me into a belly laugh is "We don't want these nukes falling into the wrong hands" or "We need to keep all the nukes so no one worse has control of them." Ha! There's the self-righteous egotistic jock. Other countries don't agree, they unleash the bully. "We must remove the weapons of mass destruction and make sure the country gets a new leader that conforms to the great American way of life." That is why the world hates the US.

My sister, for the past 5 or 6 years, has been attending a couple different colleges in Florida. There is this course relating to marine mammals that she so desperately wants to take. She has the marks, she signed up soon enough, and all her teachers like her and hope she can take the course. However, new anti-terrorism legislation might just make it so that she cannot take the course, because "International students will not be allowed to take a course not directly related to their field of study" (hers is zoology, pretty close if you ask me). Because of this, she might not be able to receive all the credits she needs and may not be able to graduate. After 6 fucking years!

Anti-terrorism. Well isn't that special. Canadian mail coming to and from Campobello Island, a part of New Brunswick, Canada, destined to other Canadian addresses is now under US scrutiny. Because of the island's location, the easiest mail route is through the tip of Maine. Despite originating in Canada and being destined for Canada, the mail is being opened and searched in Maine as part of the new "anti-terrorism" policies. Every time I go into the US I'm questioned and searched, and then get let in if they feel like it. In no time at all, not a single non-US citizen won't even be able to get in! Mail obviously can't get in or out either..."Hey guys lets make it so hard for anybody not from here to do any business with us that tourism drops 800% and all imports and exports cease!! Good thing we've got these new anti-terrorism measures!" :rolleyes: If a terrorist wanted in somehow I doubt he'd be stupid enough to drive across the border in a car full of bombs.

So, looks like we've got a jock & bully sort of country so bent on conforming, no, conquering the rest of the world to follow the American way of life and making sure not a single American dies (even though it's OK if 500,000 Middle Easterners do) that it's forgotten all about it's manners and the simple concept of politeness that it turns the entire world against it and it can no longer support it's economy, making the country crumble in under it's own weight.

I've tried to be "tolerant" (as seems to be so popular nowadays), but things have gone downhill so far that I will now just sit back and watch the downward spiral while muttering "I told you so."

It's worse at the fucking airports, they let anyone with an American passport through without checking them- but if you are a Canadian, Brit, NZer, Western Europer, Australian etc......You are a suspected terrorist, they raid your bags and porn and shoes, while the US guy who was in Al Qaeda walks through the damned airport- makes no damn sense to me...............Oh well it's Americas fault that thier economy is in recession, no-one elses

It's worse at the fucking airports, they let anyone with an American passport through without checking them- but if you are a Canadian, Brit, NZer, Western Europer, Australian etc......You are a suspected terrorist, they raid your bags and porn and shoes, while the US guy who was in Al Qaeda walks through the damned airport- makes no damn sense to me...............Oh well it's Americas fault that thier economy is in recession, no-one elses

oh yes they really do that and it sucks big time...especially if your asian. happens all the time to me.

Justified rant :)

Try fucking living here. We say were so free yet we are sheltered from every single fucking thing that can be to our entertainment. In many other countries commercials have nudity in them. We can't even show half an ass in our fucking commercials.

The US is like the world's police, cept were like the racist fucker police that kicked the shit out of Rodney King. We say were making the world safer...fuck that. If anything were making it more dangerous for terrorism by pissing them off even more. We just keep bringing more fucking hate on ourselves...and I can't wait til the day I get my ass out of this fucked up country. I didnt get a chance to live hear or not, and its unfortunate that I do. I hate this fucking country, we are so fucking unfair.

Awesome post, Heep. I, as a US citizen, agree with you 100%. It sucks.

An Jimster, they raid your porn and give it to George W. because he needs something else to get off on than his ugly fucker wife.

Peace. I hate the US. :2cents: :banghead:

`RG

Um, ok. But if you guys hate the US so much then why do you care if you can't get in? Seems kind of weird when you say how much you hate the US then bitch when you can't get in.

Um, ok. But if you guys hate the US so much then why do you care if you can't get in? Seems kind of weird when you say how much you hate the US then bitch when you can't get in.

Because you have cheaper smokes, warmer weather, and pink frosted cookies :D

Most of my...actually virtually all of my US entries are related to my sister and her school, be it visiting her, her graduation from her last school, etc. Once she's finished there I don't expect I'll be visiting again for a very long time.

Try fucking living here. We say were so free yet we are sheltered from every single fucking thing that can be to our entertainment. In many other countries commercials have nudity in them. We can't even show half an ass in our fucking commercials.

The US is like the world's police, cept were like the racist fucker police that kicked the shit out of Rodney King. We say were making the world safer...fuck that. If anything were making it more dangerous for terrorism by pissing them off even more. We just keep bringing more fucking hate on ourselves...and I can't wait til the day I get my ass out of this fucked up country. I didnt get a chance to live hear or not, and its unfortunate that I do. I hate this fucking country, we are so fucking unfair.

Awesome post, Heep. I, as a US citizen, agree with you 100%. It sucks.

An Jimster, they raid your porn and give it to George W. because he needs something else to get off on than his ugly fucker wife.

Peace. I hate the US. :2cents: :banghead:

`RG

RG, I don't believe you're as young as you claim, you have far too a sensible head on those shoulders for somebody your age.

I understand what you are saying as I read it from the point of view as someone outside of America. The only thing I question though, is if so many countries seem to hate us, then why is it when they're in need of some sort of economic help they come knocking on our door? We're in a lose lose situation. If we deny help we're scrutinized, and if we help we don't get reimburrsed and are still hated. You mentioned not involving ourselves with the way other countries are run. We wouldn't have if Saddam wasn't such an a-hole dictator. He's not a leader, he's a man in search of power and gets his jolly's off by torturing and killing people who dont do what he expects. He practically brainwashed a large sum of the people by his use of force. No one deserves to be tortured and or killed for something as unjust as not supporting the government.

Jimster, the reason those terrorists made it on the planes was before any sort of higher security was attempted to be put in place(they may have vary well still have gotten away with it even so). And even whats in place doesn't really work in anyway except by luck. Largely in part b/c they do it randomly. My mom has been stopped and searched a few times since 9/11 and she's the least harmful looking person there is. And having listened to many local radio talk shows, so many innocent people have even been strip searched. Don't think they're just stopping internation visitors, b/c they're not.

Try fucking living here. We say were so free yet we are sheltered from every single fucking thing that can be to our entertainment. In many other countries commercials have nudity in them. We can't even show half an ass in our fucking commercials.

The US is like the world's police, cept were like the racist fucker police that kicked the shit out of Rodney King. We say were making the world safer...fuck that. If anything were making it more dangerous for terrorism by pissing them off even more. We just keep bringing more fucking hate on ourselves...and I can't wait til the day I get my ass out of this fucked up country. I didnt get a chance to live hear or not, and its unfortunate that I do. I hate this fucking country, we are so fucking unfair.

Awesome post, Heep. I, as a US citizen, agree with you 100%. It sucks.

An Jimster, they raid your porn and give it to George W. because he needs something else to get off on than his ugly fucker wife.

Peace. I hate the US. :2cents: :banghead:

`RG
Is nudity that important to you? If so, maybe you haven't heard of HBO, Showtime, Cinemax? If you want to see slight nudity then watch NYPD Blue. I've seen a total side shot of a nake woman several times. I saw in your profile that your 16. You should be more concerned with school than seeing some ass in a shampoo commercial. As for the race card you brought up, racism runs rampant all over the world not just in the U.S. The vast majority of U.S. citizens aren't racists, it just seems that way b/c of the stupid ass media.

That's my opinion, in no way did i plan to offend anyone so please don't take anything personally. The biggest problem I have with America is everyone expects something for free and people get offended by the littlest comments. Political correctness is way overrated. There is a lot of things wrong with America, but there are also problems in the way every other country is run as well.

everyone...everything well said with his/her own point of view. nothing really bothers me about what heep said...the only thing i dont like is like i said...when you are not of american national, i just somehow see that if you dont hold that blue passport, people of other nationals are suspected terrorists...just that. my point of view is that...the US may suck the way people say it sucks...but at least its probably the best place on earth that sucks. just my :2cents: peace to you all.

what anti-terrorism laws? fucking hypocracy! the meaning of terrorism is- they terrorise other poeples land, try to take control of other peoples land, stuff whatever, and isnt that what they are doing? you can always tell if a white faced guy is american in singapore, just look at them, britons, autsralians dont act like them, they just walk right into you if your asian and in their way. they walk into a shop, the salesperson asks them if they need any help and what do they say? "get lost, i never asked you" or "i dont need help from asians" things like that

Alright, I feel I have to put my :2cents: in here. Let me just say that I'm from Kentucky and I've lived here all my life. I don't think I'll please anyone in here.

First, I believe that America should adopt an isolationist policy towards the rest of the world. Let's withdraw our troops and withdraw our aid, and then we'll let the rest of the world SEE how much we really mean to them. I think they'll have so much crime, terrorism and poverty that they'll be begging to intervene again. And then I would have them all sign treaties giving us sovereignty over all those who come crawling back. That's my policy on the rest of the world.

As for LIVING in America, well, I can trace my ancestors to have been in ALL the wars fought on this continent back to the Revolution (the land I live on today was a gift from George Washington to one of my great (x ?) grandfathers for his valor), and from before that I can trace my roots to Scotland, Ireland, England, Switzerland, and Germany. I LOVE America.

At least, I love the way America USED to be, how it was envisioned by our founding fathers. Now all the gov't is trying to do is TAKE AWAY every single right that was given to us in the Constitution. I think that everyone in these United States, who is not in gov't, should be a part of a militia. In the end, when Uncle Sam comes to claim the last of your human rights, you'll have no one to fight for you EXCEPT the militia. Uncle Sam controls all the armies, and they'll be working for HIM! I've always wanted to move out of America, and partly still do as soon as I finish my degree (International Economics) but then I feel that I can't abandon the people here. I've got to do all that I can to ENSURE our freedoms, or else democracy will die. If it dies here, in it's Heartland of America, then it will die across the globe.

I'm a conservative, right-wing, Christian, Republican, and I believe that George W. Bush is doing more to protect these freedoms than any President has for some time. I support him in everything he does, and I'd like to see him as a PERMANENT President, but that's not the way democracy works. Now I'm left worrying that some liberal Democratic hack is going to get elected and whose pacifist ideas are going send us into some irreversible spiral downward to where WE are the underdog country, and anyone who wants to can walk all over us.

Yes, I support militias (it is our right). Yes, I am a gun-owner and member of the NRA (this is also our right). But I'm not the gun-toting maniac shouting "KILL! KILL! KILL!" that you are probably thinking I am. This is how you've been CONDITIONED to think of those who would fight for our freedoms. You may call me a revolutionary, but wasn't that what England called our forefathers? If we do not fight back, if we do not fight to keep our freedoms, then we are no better than those Iraqis over there who are having us bail them out. They were under a dictatorial regime whose leader could have you killed on a whim. And nobody fought back. Is this what you want?

Post back and let me know what you think. Before you judge me, tell me what problems you have with what I've stated above, and let me defend myself if need be. I'd do the same for you.

Thanks for letting me have my say. - S

At least, I love the way America USED to, how it was envisioned by our founding fathers. Now all the gov't is trying to do is TAKE AWAY every single right that was given to us in the Constitution. I think that everyone in these United States, who is not in gov't, should be a part of a militia. In the end, when Uncle Sam comes to claim the last of your human rights, you'll have no one to fight for you EXCEPT the militia. Uncle Sam controls all the armies, and they'll be working for HIM! I've always wanted to move out of America, and partly still do as soon as I finish my degree (International Economics) but then I feel that I can't abandon the people here. I've got to do all that I can to ENSURE our freedoms, or else democracy will die. If it dies here, in it's Heartland of America, then it will die across the globe.

That's exactly right. The government was built on completely opposite principles of what the current vision is. The founding fathers would be appaled by the way things our today.

Let's withdraw our troops and withdraw our aid, and then we'll let the rest of the world SEE how much we really mean to them. I think they'll have so much crime, terrorism and poverty that they'll be begging to intervene again. And then I would have them all sign treaties giving us sovereignty over all those who come crawling back. That's my policy on the rest of the world.



That sounds a bit extreme. It might cause problems for others, but it would also cause problems for us; a lot of foreign trade is how we do a lot of the things we do in this country, and to become isolationist would sever ties to those countries that we depend ourselves. I honestly think we should give aid when aid is asked for, whether it be the country asking for it or the UN, or what have you.

To you Americans reading this post:

Do you think I can count on your vote when I run for President?
:thumbsup: or :thumbsdow

Just wondering. Thanks. - S

To you Americans reading this post:

Do you think I can count on your vote when I run for President?
:thumbsup: or :thumbsdow

Just wondering. Thanks. - S
:thumbsup: You got my vote! It would be nice to have a normal human being who hasn't been in politics since they were 3 in office.

In response your message, ILike2DriveCars, extremism is what I'm GOING for! We've got to get the attention of the rest of the world, and I'm sorry, but with my typical American superiority complex, we've literally got to show them whose boss. Not by being the "big American bully" but by taking away the BONUSES that they find it so easy to ignore in light of the "bad" things we Americans do. I personally think that the good FAR outway the bad.

As far as not being able to trade for goods, I believe that any foreign country would be more than HAPPY to trade with us, at REDUCED rates, in fact. America is a consumer country. If we withdraw all our aid AND funding, these countries are going to need every dollar they can get from us to fund their military (whose fighting crime) and to feed the starving (who were relying on our American taxpayer dollars to feed their mouths and cursing us with those same mouths)!

It's all going back to my original argument that we must isolate ourselves from them so that they may see exactly how much we DO do for them.

I invite anyone who has a say to join in this discussion.

Also, I'd like to thank you, TexasF355F1, for supporting me in that portion of my argument.

EDIT- Thanks for your vote, as well. I saw that after I'd posted this.
- S

for some reason this is starting to sound more and more like it's supposed to be in the political section of AF:screwy:

I have to say i was very happy with that disclaimer. I know i would probably gotten mad at whatever is in here, so i just moved on. Thanks.

Unless its some sort of trick, which would be funny.

Either way

In response your message, ILike2DriveCars, extremism is what I'm GOING for! We've got to get the attention of the rest of the world, and I'm sorry, but with my typical American superiority complex, we've literally got to show them whose boss. Not by being the "big American bully" but by taking away the BONUSES that they find it so easy to ignore in light of the "bad" things we Americans do. I personally think that the good FAR outway the bad.

- S

Please, call me Jon. I see where you are coming from, however, I think that should that actually happen it would be bad for the United States, as I believe I already said.

Jon,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were sounding a little bit miffed in that last comment. I didn't mean to offend anyone in any way, whatsoever. I was just stating my opinion. If you disagree with me that's GREAT! That's one of the things that DOES make America a great place to live. Freedom of expression and freedom of thought are two tangible ideas that a lot of countries do NOT enjoy! Thanks for your reply! - S

RG, I don't believe you're as young as you claim, you have far too a sensible head on those shoulders for somebody your age.

I am slightly offended by that post. Why is it so hard to believe that I am 16 years old? I like to write, and I like to express my feelings in words. I don't think I'm smart, I just think I am decent at writing. Maybe I could take it as a compliment instead?

And TexasF355F1, nudity is not that important to me. My point is that we are sheltered, and that is why we make such a huge deal about sex and drugs.

:worshippy: Heep, a brilliantly authored, concise and insightful post about the true nature of world powers and politics at play. I concur with absolutely everything mentioned.

The US, as a country and a people are -
Ignorant. Knowing so little about the rest of the world has led to a dangerous cycle of the blind acceptance of society wide views on foreign countries/policy and general knowlegdge. The excuse that you have so much information/history to learn about your own country is NOT valid. It does not compare to the same categories in England and other countries. I was told by an American, to his certain knowledge, that Sydney was on the West coast of Australia. And wouldn't beleive me that it was in fact on the East coast and I might know because I live there. This is just a continuing evidence of a wider spectrum of insulation that a majority of US citizens live in.

Arrogant As ably demonstrated by the major contributors to this thread already, Americans are arrogant about their important to the rest of the world. 95% of the world that you are currently 'assisting' didn't ASK for your help or WANT your help. Those that HAVE asked for help typically do so because of a situation INSTIGATED BY THE US (war, trade sanctions etc). I personally wish they would fuck off and stop interfering in things that are NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.

This combination of Ignorance (not stupidity) and Arrogance makes a very dangerous combination when combined with undeserved power that the US lords over the rest of the world on a daily basis.

All of that said, I have friends both on AF and elsewhere that are Americans and I do not begrudge them any of this. As has also been mentioned, they did not ask to be born there. I simply ask US citizens to be more active in seeking knowledge about the TRUE state of the world than simply absorbing what the mass marketed media TELLS them these things.

All of that said, I have friends both on AF and elsewhere that are Americans and I do not begrudge them any of this. As has also been mentioned, they did not ask to be born there. I simply ask US citizens to be more active in seeking knowledge about the TRUE state of the world than simply absorbing what the mass marketed media TELLS them these things.

That's probably the biggest plus I've had from joing AF, learning to accept and understand others opinions. I've visited London and absolutely loved it. I also plan to visit other countries in the future. Those being Germany and Italy and hopefully others.

I am slightly offended by that post. Why is it so hard to believe that I am 16 years old? I like to write, and I like to express my feelings in words. I don't think I'm smart, I just think I am decent at writing. Maybe I could take it as a compliment instead?

And TexasF355F1, nudity is not that important to me. My point is that we are sheltered, and that is why we make such a huge deal about sex and drugs.

And here is my permit and school id, just to prove my age. Check the birthdate.



Ryan, why are you offended at being told you're very mature for your age?
What I meant by telling you your post was insightful was that you're an intelligent young man, something too few and far between these days.

I only meant to pay you a compliment, not to offend you, I am sorry.

Well on the plus side, we do have some of the cheapest gas prices in the world. Anyway you've probably already read my opinions on America minding it's own business. The world doesn't need a daycare provider, I'm sure they can fend for themselves.

Jon,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were sounding a little bit miffed in that last comment. I didn't mean to offend anyone in any way, whatsoever. I was just stating my opinion. If you disagree with me that's GREAT! That's one of the things that DOES make America a great place to live. Freedom of expression and freedom of thought are two tangible ideas that a lot of countries do NOT enjoy! Thanks for your reply! - S

I wasnt offended in the least, I apologize if I gave you that impression.

Ryan, why are you offended at being told you're very mature for your age?
What I meant by telling you your post was insightful was that you're an intelligent young man, something too few and far between these days.

I only meant to pay you a compliment, not to offend you, I am sorry.

Hmm, apology greatly accepted. Thank you. I guess I interpreted your response a bit wrong. You came off like you were giving me a sort of attitude and saying that I lied about my age. But thanks again for the compliment, Ray.

Wow, thanks for all the opinions, both positive and negative, people...they are what help us learn. I also want to thank everyone for keeping cool...I was sure I was gonna come home from work and see 18 flames and a closed thread :p

Anyways,
The only thing I question though, is if so many countries seem to hate us, then why is it when they're in need of some sort of economic help they come knocking on our door?
Excellent point, however, it's my opinion that the US brought that situation upon themselves. Canada has rarely requested US assistance, and the US has rarely ever interfered with our issues. We're used to dealing with our own problems and don't like to burden the US with them. The countries that do come scrambling to the US for help, though, are usually the countries that have had the US involved in major events in their past. Countries experience help (or interference, depending on your viewpoint) from the US and get a taste for it, then when something goes wrong, the US is their natural choice of countries to ask for help.
We wouldn't have if Saddam wasn't such an a-hole dictator. He's not a leader, he's a man in search of power and gets his jolly's off by torturing and killing people who dont do what he expects. He practically brainwashed a large sum of the people by his use of force. No one deserves to be tortured and or killed for something as unjust as not supporting the government.
I agree with you fully on Saddam, but just because someone is a horrible leader doesn't give another country the right to step in. Did the people of Iraq make an official plea for help to the US (I honestly don't know)? If so, then I can see justification in the war, however, if they didn't, then to me it just seems like America stepping in to convert Iraq to the US way of doing things. While that may or may not be better in the long run, it can have serious impacts on the Iraqi society. Saddam and his regime are all many of the citizens know; therefore it can only be assumed that they will struggle with any other form of rule. It's like being acclimatized to prison...when someone is free, there is initial celebration, but soon they find out that they don't know how to live any other way.
The vast majority of U.S. citizens aren't racists, it just seems that way b/c of the stupid ass media.
Unfortunately I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Of course there will always be people that have their own opinions on races but very few act on it now; that much is true. However, the US has gotten used to not being racist towards Blacks or Asians or Indians, but let me tell you racism is very much alive in the form of nationalityism (I love making words :D). I've actually had people refuse my business because I'm Canadian which seemingly automatically means I don't support their war efforts. Well no, I don't, but I can't be held responsible for decisions made my my Prime Minister, just as Americans refuse to be accountable for Presidential decisions. I visit your country, I change my money to yours at a loss, I spend and your businesses and feed your workers, and some of your citizens have the gall to insult me based on my nationality!?!? Believe me, racism is stronger now than it ever has been.
you can always tell if a white faced guy is american in singapore, just look at them, britons, autsralians dont act like them
It's actually very unfortunate that those mannerisms are basically all white non-Americans have in their favour. Brits and Aussies and others at least have a distinctly non-US accent, however we Canadians often can only act polite and wear a Canadian flag in order to avoid prejudice from people who have a bad taste of Americans.
First, I believe that America should adopt an isolationist policy towards the rest of the world. Let's withdraw our troops and withdraw our aid, and then we'll let the rest of the world SEE how much we really mean to them. I think they'll have so much crime, terrorism and poverty that they'll be begging to intervene again. And then I would have them all sign treaties giving us sovereignty over all those who come crawling back. That's my policy on the rest of the world.
That's a very interesting and valid point, but as I mentioned in regard to Texas's comments, people are only scrambling to the US because they've become acclimatized to your "help."
I love the way America USED to be, how it was envisioned by our founding fathers. Now all the gov't is trying to do is TAKE AWAY every single right that was given to us in the Constitution.
I agreed wholeheartedly. I love the old America as well. While not as extreme as in many parts of the US, Canada is being influenced by this new United States and is adopting some crazy policies as well. It won't be long before I get completely fed up with Canada as well...I've got nowhere to hide! :(
Ignorant. Knowing so little about the rest of the world has led to a dangerous cycle of the blind acceptance of society wide views on foreign countries/policy and general knowlegdge.
Excellent point. I've always been annoyed by how little the majority of Americans know about other places, even us, their own neighbours! It's amazing how many people in the US have seriously asked me things like "How do you keep warm in igloos?" and "Do you drive on the left side of the road?" or even "Do you even have roads?" I would be willing to forgive them if only they didn't demand I know everything about the US such as what the capital of Oregon is (no clue!). You struck a new chord in my brain though, as I just realized how negative an effect this ignorance can have in light of US foreign "interference." We've got the US telling the world how to run their country when they know nothing about said countries or what it's like to actually live in them!
what the mass marketed media TELLS them these things.
I fear that is one of the top causes of the state the US is currently in. Canada, while media-flooded as compared to most of the world, is nowhere near as bombarded as the US. At least Canadian media tends to be far less biased and is more objective, just giving facts and allowing citizens to formulate their own opinions. The US media is very smart and very crafty...they know how to manipulate through even the smallest things. For example, I was in Florida during that "Great Power Blackout" a few months back. Not even a couple of hours after it occured, the US media was already blaming Canadian power stations, and everybody's opinion of Canada just dropped 5 points right then and there. I even had some people blame me personally for it because of my nationality! Turned out to be a US power station and not at all related to our stations, but the damage had been done and people's opinions never went back up. It's a shame that the media controls so many lives.


Whew! I'm talking up a storm. Glad to be gaining insight here, lets keep up the rational debate :)

First things first, RyanGiorgio, NEVER ever ever ever put your pic on the 'net WITH your address, ESPECIALLY not a valid license, even if it is only a permit. There are a lot of "bad people" out there just waiting to create innocents like you a credit history, FREE OF CHARGE (for them at least...)! Just lucky your SS wasn't on there anywhere.

Second, thanks for getting back to me Jon! I just wanted to make sure we were good! :thumbsup:

Oz, I agree with you that Americans are both ignorant and arrogant. I saw test results recently from a WORLDWIDE survey on world geography, and the US, if not the last, was right next to it. The countries who scored the highest were predominantly European (sorry, I don't remember how Canada placed). I DON'T agree with you that because people rely on us is because we CAUSE them to rely on us. I'm gonna take this back in history a little bit (and yes, feed you some more of my American superiority drivel) but remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)

Now here's the clincher: NO WAR WAS EVER FOUGHT ON OUR SOIL! The closest it came was Pearl Harbor, and that's not even mainland. So our economy wasn't affected. It actually boomed. But the Europeans were decimated. They NEVER would have been able to rebuild (it still took years) if it hadn't been for the United State's financial backing. THAT, I believe, is where the root of loans and aid between foreign countries and the US came from.

You also mention that the US lords it's "undeserved power" over everyone else. I think that power is rightfully DESERVED! We really have done some great and wonderful things. The problem, I believe, is that this deserved power is wielded by UNdeserving individuals. What do you think of that? America as a whole has earned it's power (it's never been stolen it, has it?) but the leadership today are fairly incompetent.

Tex said earlier that he'd "vote" for me, because he'd like to see a human being in office who HADN'T been in politics since he was three. I think that's the way the majority of Americans feel. These politicians create "dynasties" (e.g. Kennedy's, Bush's, even the Reagan's) and they are so powerful and the financial stakes are so high that the regular person, whose ideas may set us on the right course or who may have an even clearer view of things, is kept from reaching even mediocre heights. This is sad. The majority of THEM are the one's who are arrogant and ignorant. They say the common man cannot consider such complex edifices as gov't. They say we should sit back and let them take care of it, and not to pay any attention. It's a good thing we still do.

But how long is this kind of thing going to last. I mentioned earlier that Americans should enlist in their local militias, and if you don't have one, start one. This is because I smell a revolution in the not-so-distant future. The American populace is NOT happy with the way the Constitution has been bastardized.

Heep, this is one helluva thread you've started. :boink: Gimme more, bizzitch!

Now let me disagree with you. Let's scroll down to where you begin talking about Saddam (we're in you're latest post). I can see your argument, why mess with a country's way of life, to give them something just as bad, worse, or worst of all, UNCERTAIN. (Right?) We've had ACCURATE info on Saddam's "crimes against humanity" for a while, now. We're continuously finding new evidence and mass graves. My question to you is this: how can you, as a modern civilized (American sp., of course) person, sit back and not do anything to help?!

This is amazing to me. These are real men, women, and CHILDREN! Let me drive it closer to home. Say your neighbor is next door, and say he has some children. If you knew he was sexually abusing his children, PHYSICALLY abusing them, to the point of cutting off fingers or limbs, or just plain killing them, are you saying you'd watch with an impassive countenance? Personally, I'd kill the fucker myself! That scum does not deserve to live! Fuck the trial, because if you know for a FACT that he has done this (not your "reasoning" but personal eye-witness accounts, and HUMAN remains in the backyard) you are doing society-at-large, and subsequent generations, a favor.

Now I'll disagree with both you AND Tex (God forbid) but Tex says racism is not that prevalent any longer, and you replied that it wasn't that prevalent towards Asians, Indians, and African-Americans, but more in the form of "nationalityism" (I love using freshly made words!). I propose that racial tensions are STILL highstrung. Yes, we've got national pride, but who doesn't. Who won't say that there country is the best in the world, that there country is God's country (well, Cuba, maybe, but that's different). Anyways, I'm in the heartland, in the Bluegrass, (KENTUCKY, you morons :banghead: ) and there is so much racism here it really isn't funny. It's not because of the "hick-syndrome" like you're probably thinking, but, having friends across the country, I put forth that if it is not as high as it was in the '70's, it's still up there.

You mention that Canada is changing in relation to the US's new laws, and that you will be leaving before long. I feel the same (in fact, I mentioned it in one of my last posts). If a national reform does NOT come around soon, to check the growing power of the US's political class, then the US WILL become the oppressive monster we all fear. Something must be done!

Finally, we come to the mass media. A Russian news correspondent came here recently and remarked to an American reporter that he was "amazed" at how free our media is, how it's allowed to criticize the gov't. He couldn't imagine this in his country where the media is state-run.

How wrong he was. THE UNITED STATES MEDIA IS STATE-RUN!!! Everything they say or do INFLUENCES your thoughts. They may go against it sometimes because there is some small rebellion going on regarding the "freedom of the press", but the majority of these "rebellions" are orchestrated by the gov't to give you some SEMBLANCE of receiving an IMPARTIAL judgment.

Think about that.

Now that you've thought about it, post back with your comments. What are YOUR ideas? Thanks. - S


Heep and I could write a book :evillol: We could be the next Hannity & Colmes!

First things first, RyanGiorgio, NEVER ever ever ever put your pic on the 'net WITH your address, ESPECIALLY not a valid license, even if it is only a permit. There are a lot of "bad people" out there just waiting to create innocents like you a credit history, FREE OF CHARGE (for them at least...)! Just lucky your SS wasn't on there anywhere.

Second, thanks for getting back to me Jon! I just wanted to make sure we were good! :thumbsup:

Oz, I agree with you that Americans are both ignorant and arrogant. I saw test results recently from a WORLDWIDE survey on world geography, and the US, if not the last, was right next to it. The countries who scored the highest were predominantly European (sorry, I don't remember how Canada placed). I DON'T agree with you that because people rely on us is because we CAUSE them to rely on us. I'm gonna take this back in history a little bit (and yes, feed you some more of my American superiority drivel) but remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)

Now here's the clincher: NO WAR WAS EVER FOUGHT ON OUR SOIL! The closest it came was Pearl Harbor, and that's not even mainland. So our economy wasn't affected. It actually boomed. But the Europeans were decimated. They NEVER would have been able to rebuild (it still took years) if it hadn't been for the United State's financial backing. THAT, I believe, is where the root of loans and aid between foreign countries and the US came from.


Just to respond to these statements.

No war? Did you sleep in history class?
Did you forget the War of Independance or maybe the Civil War?
Before you try to tell me that you meant no wars involving other nations, keep in mind the War of Independance was fought against the British.

As for the American entry into WW2, I believe America was pushed into the war, it wasn't exactly voluntary.
Something about an attack on Pearl Harbour springs to mind.....

Answer me something, since your posts have me wondering something, how much have you travelled outside the USA?

I'm sorry, I didn't word that correctly. I had so many ideas going through my head, I couldn't type as fast as I thought. What I was getting at is the World Wars, where foreign countries needed our direct intervention, where they were ASKING for our help. This is where the lending came from, and has continued.

But let's do take this back to the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, we were a fledgling country, and we accepted the aid of those same foreign countries who decades later would be accepting aid from us! France figures directly into mind, in both wars, and the United Kingdom (Great Britain, Britannia, England? They change their name too much) made some quite substantial loans after the Civil War. Those loans are what brought America into the Industrial Revolution, enabling us to become the richest country in the world.

As far as being forced into the war, there is currently enough surviving evidence that the government knew, Eisenhower knew, every single detail about the attack on Pearl Harbor BEFORE IT HAPPENED! They'd decoded several Japanese messages. Why didn't they say anything? There was not enough war sentiment among the general populace to justify joining! There were quite a few dissenters! Solution? Allow them an attack on Hawaii (not mainland America), and that will stir the Americans up enough to justify anything the gov't wanted to do. There have been several books written on this topic.

I hope you weren't insulting my knowledge of history? It is my favorite subject.

As for traveling outside the country I have been to Canada, Great Britain, and Mexico for several weeks at a time. I've been through France, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, and Spain staying for a few days in each on a European tour. I speak English, le Francais, und Deutsch. The last two haltingly, but I'm working on that. I also plan on taking Japanese next semester, and if time permits, get a smattering of Russian. My major is in International Economics at the University of Kentucky, and I plan on going to Law school to major in International Law. I'm currently a Junior, will be a Senior next fall, and will probably extend my undergraduate studies by a year or two to work on languages and take advantage of the Foreign Exchange type programs UK offers.

Why do you ask? Because of my reactionary views within the US, or the isolationist policies I feel we should adapt toward the rest of the world? I do not plan on living here after getting my Law degree, but would like to work in Germany, or perhaps France. (Incidentally the two countries America has the biggest beef with! COUNTING Afghanistan, North Korea, and Iraq!)

Freedom Fries...What a stupid idea.

Again, whaddya think? - S

I asked because too many Americans make declarations about America's greatness yet have never stepped foot outside America to even know why they are saying why America is great.

If you've never experienced a third world country, how can you know what conditions those people live in?
If you've never witnessed the desparation in person, how can you pass judgement on them and deny them food?

People in many third world countries see images of America on TV and in newspapers and it shows a rich prosperous country where everyone is happy and fed.
Do you blame them for asking America to help them?

Do the poor not always beg from the rich?

I'm not saying America is "great". I'm saying America is powerful because of GOOD decisions and GOOD investments that it's made over the course of it's entire history. When all the other older countries embraced tradition, we embraced the "manifest destiny", the new, the uncharted. Traditionally, most inventors and entrepreneurs come here to work.

You are correct, I've never visted a third-world country, but my major my Freshman and Sophomore years was Anthropology, so I have a background in this. I've also seen many documentaries. Two people in my German class are from South Africa, one white and one black. Yet in all my learning and discussions, I KNOW I haven't scraped the surface of this. You're right, I NEED to go there, but so should everyone else. It's so easy to turn off the TV or close the book on those horrible images, but how hard would it be in PERSON! You may close your eyes, but you cannot shut out the sounds. And I guarantee those pleadings and wailings would be in your memory the rest of your life. They would be in mine.

People in many third world countries see images of America on TV and in newspapers and it shows a rich prosperous country where everyone is happy and fed.
Do you blame them for asking America to help them?

America BROADCASTS these images! It's their form of mind-control, of "subliminal messaging"! They do it to their own PEOPLE!

"America is great, do not worry about anything, leave it in the hands of the chosen, gifted few, go out and spend, Uncle Sam will take care of you, Uncle Sam will protect you."

The fact is that many people in America are homeless and without food! Not the majority, like in other countries, but it exists! But no one will ever know because America does not want it's ugly underbelly to show.

It is not my intention to hurt these people, especially those in prison ( I say this because the majority of those jailed are INNOCENT! I saw a documentary the other night on South America, and their prisons are FILLED with children ranging from ages 8 to 17!!!) I just want to show that everyone who curses the Americans may be right, but they're more than willing to take advantages of our pocketbook. A truly brave, revolutionary country would say "Keep your money! We will make it on our own!" And whether they succeed or not is debatable, but they tried, they had the SPIRIT of America, the America that stood up to Great Britain and said "NO MORE!" I would gladly move to that country and aid in any way that I could. If needed, I'd stay in America, and send money or food.

I CARE about these people, I CARE about the world. But people have to be willing to help themselves first.

Am I getting my ideas across???

Heep, I have to hand it to you. That was an excellent read you wrote on page 3! You explained yourself very well as to be careful not to offend oneside or another. :thumbsup:

Oh and Ryan, i see what your saying now.

You are correct, I've never visted a third-world country, but my major my Freshman and Sophomore years was Anthropology, so I have a background in this. I've also seen many documentaries. Two people in my German class are from South Africa, one white and one black.

Great! Well, you must know all about it now.

America is great


I'm not saying America is "great".

Gonna make up yer bleeding mind sometime soon?

I'm saying America is powerful because of GOOD decisions and GOOD investments that it's made over the course of it's entire history.

Incorrect. The primary reason for America's current wealth and hence position of power is it's sporadic and antagonistic participation in world conflicts over the past century. And taking advantage of that wherever possible.

I saw a documentary the other night

Well, it must be true.

A truly brave, revolutionary country would say "Keep your money! We will make it on our own!" And whether they succeed or not is debatable, but they tried, they had the SPIRIT of America, the America that stood up to Great Britain and said "NO MORE!" I would gladly move to that country and aid in any way that I could. If needed, I'd stay in America, and send money or food.

And as soon as this country actively comes out with this, the first thing the US would do is place trade sanctions and embargoes on them and blacklist them in the 'unfriendly' countries book. Dooming them to failure in their endeavour.

I CARE about these people, I CARE about the world. But people have to be willing to help themselves first.

So basically, slap some aid programs together, and if the whole shitfight falls down around your ankles, they should have been trying harder to help themselves.

Am I getting my ideas across???
Not particularly effectively, and those that do make it are so warped it scares me.

There are a lot of "bad people" out there

I see. Where are all these 'bad' people exactly? Could you introduce me to some of them please? This prevailing FEAR mentality in the US is the primary cause of your gun control, use and abuse issues. I hope you've seen Bowling for Columbine to witness the truth in what I'm saying (particularly the section where M. Moore compares gun ownership VS crime in both Canada and the US)

I DON'T agree with you that because people rely on us is because we CAUSE them to rely on us. I'm gonna take this back in history a little bit (and yes, feed you some more of my American superiority drivel) but remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)

I was being a little bit liberally sweeping in that statement, but don't flatter yourselves. You joined that war at the point where it was most likely you could profit enormously from joining the allies. I have no illusion if Hitler wasn't known for such atrocious acts and had a better $$$ proposition that Italy/Germany/Japan/US would have been the 'Allies'.

So our economy wasn't affected. It actually boomed. But the Europeans were decimated. They NEVER would have been able to rebuild (it still took years) if it hadn't been for the United State's financial backing.

Once again, you pre-emptively prove my point. Yes, the US profited enormously from the devestation in other countries. And BULLSHIT they couldn't have rebuilt themselves.

I think that power is rightfully DESERVED! We really have done some great and wonderful things. The problem, I believe, is that this deserved power is wielded by UNdeserving individuals. What do you think of that? America as a whole has earned it's power (it's never been stolen it, has it?) but the leadership today are fairly incompetent.

What in fucks name have you done to deserve your current position of world power, wealth and dominance? For a country so obsessively democratic, it doesn't seem like there was any vote to instigate this current situation. But yes, correct, there are a majority of undeserving individuals currently in power abusing it (witness the Prez).

I mentioned earlier that Americans should enlist in their local militias, and if you don't have one, start one. This is because I smell a revolution in the not-so-distant future. The American populace is NOT happy with the way the Constitution has been bastardized.

Fucking brilliant solution! Try to overthrow the US government with local level militias made up of semi trained gun toting hicks. Seriously, what kind of people do you think these militias attract? I would really like to know what this revolution you 'smell' smells like. Chicken? And the prevelance of militia membership is once again becuase of the sensationalised fear mentality of the majority of the US populace.


When all the other older countries embraced tradition, we embraced the "manifest destiny", the new, the uncharted. Traditionally, most inventors and entrepreneurs come here to work.

And just where the bollocks did you pull that little factoid about the great inventor/entrepeneur migration from?


Just remain aware, I'm attacking the logical progression and fact behind your ideas and concepts, and not you as a person.

Heep, that's a damng good rant. I couldn't have said it better myself.

And Oz, omg.. I couldn't stop laughing :rofl:

People in many third world countries see images of America on TV and in newspapers and it shows a rich prosperous country where everyone is happy and fed.
Do you blame them for asking America to help them?

Oz, I said that, he was quoting me :eek7:


Solomon219
The documentaries we see on American TV are complete and utter bullshit!
You are still being spoon fed by the media, even in these documentaries, they are showing you what THEY WANT you to see and believe.

It's good to hear you have some South Africans in your school, now why don't you spend some time with them learning about the country, although, if they are here only to study, they are likely from that sheltered group of that have never seen the streets of Soweto or Khayalitsha in person.
Either way, learn from them, you'd be surprised how different SA is to the image the media has fed you.

remember WWI, remember WWII. Both of those wars we were RELUCTANT to enter, yet when we saw our fellow men being beaten down, being trampled by the likes of oppression, we COULDN'T stand idly by. (Paraphrased: We saved your asses.)
I can't recall how the US got involved in WWI, but whether the US knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time or not does not confront the fact that it took a direct assault on the US before they decided to join the war effort.
This is amazing to me. These are real men, women, and CHILDREN! Let me drive it closer to home. Say your neighbor is next door, and say he has some children. If you knew he was sexually abusing his children, PHYSICALLY abusing them, to the point of cutting off fingers or limbs, or just plain killing them, are you saying you'd watch with an impassive countenance? Personally, I'd kill the fucker myself!
I would call the police, who legally have the authority to step in. The US does not have that authority over Iraq. Before I move on to the next point though, let me say WOW, for you struck an all new chord in my brain. It just dawned on me that perhaps the extremely high US gun death rate is not primarily related to "bad murders" (such as killing someone for honking at them in traffic) as I and most others had assumed; instead, the majority of the US gun deaths are probably "righteous murders", such as in that situation or the guy that went around killing abortion doctors. People may be horrible, but that does not give others the right to kill them.
THE UNITED STATES MEDIA IS STATE-RUN!!! Everything they say or do INFLUENCES your thoughts.
How true that is. I was reminded of something one of your leaders (can't remember whom) said when Canada declined to enter the Iraq war. He said something to the effect of "If Canada was being attacked we would help you out, and yet you deny us!" That phrase did HUGE damage to the US opinion of Canada, and yet it was entirely twisted. Lets break it down. "If Canada was being attacked..." That statement implies that Canada is the defender, and that countryA is the offender. In that case I'm sure the US would help out. However, if Canada was the offender attacking countryA, I'm not so sure the US would be willing to help. That is the situation with Iraq. The US is the offender and Iraq is the defender, thus the statement by that man is completely twisted out of context and did irrevocable harm to the US opinion of Canada.
Freedom Fries...What a stupid idea.
Side note: Was that ever made official? That is one of the most racist, or should I say "nationalityist" things I've ever heard...
I hope you've seen Bowling for Columbine to witness the truth in what I'm saying (particularly the section where M. Moore compares gun ownership VS crime in both Canada and the US)
Interesting side note, Bowling for Columbine has been hugely disassembled and criticized, and labelled as false by the American public (which perhaps it is, but it still makes a point) because it is "anti-American", yet other documentaries that are just as, or more, full of holes that promote America get defended as absolute truth.

Oz, I said that, he was quoting me :eek7:

:banghead: Fixed :)

F...
This is amazing to me. These are real men, women, and CHILDREN! Let me drive it closer to home. Say your neighbor is next door, and say he has some children. If you knew he was sexually abusing his children, PHYSICALLY abusing them, to the point of cutting off fingers or limbs, or just plain killing them, are you saying you'd watch with an impassive countenance? Personally, I'd kill the fucker myself! That scum does not deserve to live! Fuck the trial, because if you know for a FACT that he has done this (not your "reasoning" but personal eye-witness accounts, and HUMAN remains in the backyard) you are doing society-at-large, and subsequent generations, a favor...

This is another thread and another debate, but what do you think of the fact that in America it's not only legal but POPULAR to cut parts of the penis off juvenile and infant males? Can't cut off their fingers, can't cut off their toes, but you can amputate part of their most intimate parts, and almost always without anesthesia.
This has no medical indication (READ: the part isn't diseased, it is healthy, and the surgery has been shown to have no medical benefits) and is almost always done NOT for religious reasons.
Neither is it common in any European or Asian county, in fact it is illegal in many.
I would call that physical abuse, wouldn't you? That's one of the most bothersome things to me about this country.

This is another thread and another debate, but what do you think of the fact that in America it's not only legal but POPULAR to cut parts of the penis off juvenile and infant males? Can't cut off their fingers, can't cut off their toes, but you can amputate part of their most intimate parts, and almost always without anesthesia.
This has no medical indication (READ: the part isn't diseased, it is healthy, and the surgery has been shown to have no medical benefits) and is almost always done NOT for religious reasons.
Neither is it common in any European or Asian county, in fact it is illegal in many.
I would call that physical abuse, wouldn't you? That's one of the most bothersome things to me about this country.
I'm glad I don't have foreskin. :icon16: True, we don't have a choice, but who really cares that much? Its doesn't really affect anything.

This is another thread and another debate, but what do you think of the fact that in America it's not only legal but POPULAR to cut parts of the penis off juvenile and infant males? Can't cut off their fingers, can't cut off their toes, but you can amputate part of their most intimate parts, and almost always without anesthesia.
This has no medical indication (READ: the part isn't diseased, it is healthy, and the surgery has been shown to have no medical benefits) and is almost always done NOT for religious reasons.
Neither is it common in any European or Asian county, in fact it is illegal in many.
I would call that physical abuse, wouldn't you? That's one of the most bothersome things to me about this country.

Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!).

As for the reason it is prevalent in the US is because that the western world is still dominated by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Hence the reason we don't allow gay marriages (while quite a few European countries do; I could name about 13 right now) and the legalization of marijuana, even for medicinal purposes (which certain European countries have adopted for "recreational" purposes, along with harder drugs).

That's the reason it's still practiced. I personally don't believe that these Christian ideals will last too much longer. I feel that we're moving toward a more liberal, perhaps "agnostic" country. I'm a Christian, but I really don't believe this is a bad thing. Our Constution states that we have Freedom of Religion...but doesn't that give you freedom FROM religion as well?!

As an aside, there are quite a few websites out there documenting people who believe that they should have had the choice, not their parents, being as it was their body. They feel a loss. What they've discovered is that they can TECHNICALLY regrow the foreskin. This is involved using weights that you affix to the skin of you penis and it drags the skin down. Doing this often enough, long enough will cause the skin to lengthen, thus drawing down in a "hood". Men who have tried this have expressed an increased sensitivity (a petty debate that has been waged for some time regards the fact that if you are circumsised, you lose a lot of sensation, due to the fact that your exposed "member" is constantly rubbing against rough clothing, and not protected by the foreskin).

If you're interested in more of that you can just Google the topic, there's quite a few resources out there.



Now, as for the reason I originally came back into the thread, I just found this website and thought I'd post it. It's pretty fucked up. It's a "Christian" group who has based all of their ideals upon America's founding fathers.

http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos.php

Think this is a cult?!?
Typical American extremists, huh? (Yeah, I know...this commin' from me :screwy: )


Boingo, I don't mean any offense to you, so please don't take any, but I noticed that you're from Utah (yeah, you know what's coming). Are you Mormon, by chance? If you are, what is their belief? If not, are you religious?

It's none of my business, if you don't want to answer. I was just curious because of the subject.

Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!).



Interesting point.
Now what if I were to tell you that whether you're circumscised or not has nothing to with Christianity.
The Gentiles were Christians, they did not practice circumcision, in fact, the practice of circumcision comes from the Jewish religion originally.
It was the Jews that 'converted' to Christianity that continued the practice originally.

If you doubt me, start reading the Bible a little more carefully, it's in there.

BTW, I too grew up with Christian parents and with an uncle who is a ordained minister, I've had a lot of exposure to this debate and the Bible does not state to be Christian you must be circumcised.

Point taken. I'll be the first to admit you probably have a better background in this than me. Let me direct you to a website that is very well-written, and was eye-opening to me:

http://www.noharmm.org/christianparent.htm

It's also interesting that the majority of Christians are proponents for MALE circumcision, but if the topic turns to FEMALE circumcision, it's an "evil" act that only "backwards" and "uncivilized" people practice.

This childish bantering went on WAY too long :nono:

I didn't vote for Bush, he's a retard, and i wouldn't cry if he got assasinated :sly: But the whole thing is simple...if you don't like a country, then stay the fuck out of it.

What bothers me is all the "group think" that goes on. I'm American, therefore I'm an arrogant bully. And a racist. And probably a few other things. It seems that INDIVIDUALS don't exist! Everyone is simply part of this group or that, and can be part of more than one group.

But it's as if no individual has a right, or even the ability, to gather their own information and form their own unique opinion! One is required to subscribe to whatever group is closest to their core values.

What ever happened to critical thinking? Seems to have gone out with the Eisenhower Administration. I'll limit my advice to this: TURN OFF YOUR GODDAMN TELEVISIONS! THERE IS A REASON IT'S REFERRED TO AS PROGRAMMING!

Bah, listen to me. Just another damned American trying to tell the rest of the world what's best.

Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!).

As for the reason it is prevalent in the US is because that the western world is still dominated by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Hence the reason we don't allow gay marriages (while quite a few European countries do; I could name about 13 right now) and the legalization of marijuana, even for medicinal purposes (which certain European countries have adopted for "recreational" purposes, along with harder drugs).

That's the reason it's still practiced. I personally don't believe that these Christian ideals will last too much longer. I feel that we're moving toward a more liberal, perhaps "agnostic" country. I'm a Christian, but I really don't believe this is a bad thing. Our Constution states that we have Freedom of Religion...but doesn't that give you freedom FROM religion as well?!

As an aside, there are quite a few websites out there documenting people who believe that they should have had the choice, not their parents, being as it was their body. They feel a loss. What they've discovered is that they can TECHNICALLY regrow the foreskin. This is involved using weights that you affix to the skin of you penis and it drags the skin down. Doing this often enough, long enough will cause the skin to lengthen, thus drawing down in a "hood". Men who have tried this have expressed an increased sensitivity (a petty debate that has been waged for some time regards the fact that if you are circumsised, you lose a lot of sensation, due to the fact that your exposed "member" is constantly rubbing against rough clothing, and not protected by the foreskin).

If you're interested in more of that you can just Google the topic, there's quite a few resources out there.



Now, as for the reason I originally came back into the thread, I just found this website and thought I'd post it. It's pretty fucked up. It's a "Christian" group who has based all of their ideals upon America's founding fathers.

http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos.php

Think this is a cult?!?
Typical American extremists, huh? (Yeah, I know...this commin' from me :screwy: )


Boingo, I don't mean any offense to you, so please don't take any, but I noticed that you're from Utah (yeah, you know what's coming). Are you Mormon, by chance? If you are, what is their belief? If not, are you religious?

It's none of my business, if you don't want to answer. I was just curious because of the subject.
I have to disagree with you on your take on Christian ideals not lasting much longer. The percentage of people in America who are Christian is far more than those who aren't. And the constitution was written under Christian pretenses. And the nation was founded under God. Hence, "One nation, under God......". The government is stupid in trying to change so many things that deal with God to conform to what a small minority want changed. People really make a big deal out of the word God. If you don't believe, then good, that is your constitutional right and your born right. B/c not believing is basically a religion. People just need to relax and not get so worked up over such minascule unimportant things. There are a lot more important things to worry about. Just my opinion though, so please, no one take offense.

But the whole thing is simple...if you don't like a country, then stay the fuck out of it.

Good point. America as a whole seems to hate Iraq...so stay the fuck out of it ;)

What bothers me is all the "group think" that goes on...

You'll note that in my disclaimer I said I would be referring to the US as a whole and was not singling out individuals, as many of them are great people.

TURN OFF YOUR GODDAMN TELEVISIONS! THERE IS A REASON IT'S REFERRED TO AS PROGRAMMING!
- Dan
:iagree:
Did you guys know that only FIVE companies control the entire brodcast network in the US? Not only that, but that they're all financially vested in each other, so that if one's doing poorly, they all are, and if one's making a killing, they all are? Dan's right. If you don't believe in subliminal messaging, you've been brainwashed. :wink: (Hope that wasn't over your head)

Tex,
The reason I said that I don't believe Christian values would hold much longer in this country is because of, well, all the persecution going on right now. This includes persecution AGAINST and BY the church. What I draw my conclusion from is the removal of the ten commandments from schools, the removal of the statue of the ten commandmants from that courthouse, and the law that passed in CA taking the words "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance. These things are all being PASSED! Bush is a Christian, but who's to say the next prez will be? I wasn't saying it's going to happen all at one, but I think we're gradually sliding to a point where we'll be like communist Russia, with NO religion. That might be a bit extreme, but I don't see Christianity going down just to be replaced by Buddhism, Islam, or any other religion. Just my :2cents: .

Let me know what you think, Tex.

__________________

Solomon, I studied my permit for 5 minutes just to make sure that my SS number wasnt on it. All the other information can found out as easy as looking at the permit, so I didnt care. Its just my address, but I am going to remove the picture. Thanks for keeping an eye out.

there is an easy solution if you dont like the USA then there is a vast majority of the planet you can go live in. You wont enjoy the freedoms you enjoy here though.

AS far as the religious thing goes its freedome OF religion not freedome FROM religion.

Tex,
The reason I said that I don't believe Christian values would hold much longer in this country is because of, well, all the persecution going on right now. This includes persecution AGAINST and BY the church. What I draw my conclusion from is the removal of the ten commandments from schools, the removal of the statue of the ten commandmants from that courthouse, and the law that passed in CA taking the words "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance. These things are all being PASSED! Bush is a Christian, but who's to say the next prez will be? I wasn't saying it's going to happen all at one, but I think we're gradually sliding to a point where we'll be like communist Russia, with NO religion. That might be a bit extreme, but I don't see Christianity going down just to be replaced by Buddhism, Islam, or any other religion. Just my :2cents: .

Let me know what you think, Tex.

__________________
Ok, I see now. There was a communication glitch. I don't know I guess I don't like it b/c it doesn't make sense to me why its such a big deal. Oh well, whatever happens happens. There's not much I can do except to follow my beliefs.

You'll note that in my disclaimer I said I would be referring to the US as a whole and was not singling out individuals, as many of them are great people.

So basically, you hate America the stereotype.

AS far as the religious thing goes its freedome OF religion not freedome FROM religion.

Hey Entreri,
I think you missed what I was saying. Yes, we have freedom of religion, where you're free to pick and choose from the plethora available and not be persecuted for your choice (well, that was the intention).

But this also gives you freedom FROM religion. What I mean is that you don't HAVE to pick one, especially if you don't believe in it. You shouldn't be held accountable to rules that any religion decides to make.

I'm NOT saying that you can break the laws BASED on Christian beliefs (such as thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal) but if you want to work on Sundays, or date someone of a different race, or even of the same GENDER, you should be allowed to, because it is what YOU believe, not what someone else tells you to believe.

No-one has the right to punish you just because you don't follow THEIR guidelines, rules, and/or strictures.

My point: In this country you have certain freedoms. One is the freedom of religion. If you don't believe in religion, or certain religions, you have freedom FROM that religion.

I guess I don't like it b/c it doesn't make sense to me why its such a big deal. Oh well, whatever happens happens. There's not much I can do except to follow my beliefs.

It doesn't make sense to me either, but this is also just my take on it. I HOPE I'm wrong.

But I agree with you that whatever happens, happens, and you have to let yourself be guided by faith.

(And that's faith in whatever you believe, for those easily offended)

You wont enjoy the freedoms you enjoy here though.

:bs:

:bs:

I don't think he was talking about the America Jr.'s (Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, etc.) which is probably what you were getting at with the BS statement. "Well, in Austrailia I can do everything you can in the US but without all the blah, blah, blah." :biggrin:

America Jr.'s, lol.

I hope Oz doesn't see that....

Solomon, I too can trace my family back to the revolutionary war, even to 10,000 BC, when the first people from asia crossed from asia into north america, becoming native americans.

Americans have fought hard to gain their freedom, and we want to help others gain theirs. I am pro-military, but even I dont approve of how my country is involving itself in world affairs. I disagree with the withdrawal of U.S. troops, however. The US started it, and the U.S. will sure as hell finish it. I think we americans can thank George W. for all this shit. I have always wanted to travel through europe, to see france, italy, and spain. But now that is out of the question considering that I would get my ass kicked the minute I stepped into any of those countries. All thanks to Mr. Bush, that bastard.

Why couldnt Al Gore be president? That way all he would be concerned with would be his damn lock-box idea.