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Solomon219
12-07-2003, 06:37 PM
lol, if Gore had won at least SNL would have had a lot more material...

But you're right about the travel, that's one thing that really bothers me. I mentioned before that I hope to work overseas, but it's just too scary right now. The only place Americans are truly safe is here, and in light of 9/11... Dark times...

Solomon219
12-07-2003, 06:43 PM
I don't think you can place ALLthe blame on Bush, though. He's got a very conserative cabinet, and frankly, do you really think he won the Presidency with intelligence or charm? It was all oil money and connections of "Daddy's". I personally think that Cheney is the one in charge of the country. It was kinda funny back during 9/11 how you could find Bush anywhere by turning on a news network, but Cheney was in always in "an undisclosed location".

chicago_guy
12-07-2003, 08:43 PM
that just goes to show that we all could care less if bush was assassinated and that we want cheney to live. And I sure as hell know he didnt win through intelligence. Did you know that he said, "The majority of our imports come from other countries." and "To NASA, space is still a high priority."? And he thought mexican was a language.

Solomon219
12-07-2003, 09:29 PM
:lol: I wasn't familiar with those "priceless" remarks. I bet he'd be shocked to learn that we speak English, and not American, as well...

But c'mon, he's still a good prez... He can fly a jet-fighter. What other world leader can do that. I can't do that. That's what being a president is all about.

Add five cups of sarcasm to the above statement, and mix WELL!

Heep
12-07-2003, 10:15 PM
there is an easy solution if you dont like the USA then there is a vast majority of the planet you can go live in. You wont enjoy the freedoms you enjoy here though.

I disagree there...I'm willing to bet Canadians are more "free" (whatever that even means these days)

So basically, you hate America the stereotype.

Exactly. That's all I can do when talking about America in general, and not just individuals. Unfortunately, from personal experience, America the stereotype is what I see 80% of the time I'm there.

I disagree with the withdrawal of U.S. troops, however. The US started it, and the U.S. will sure as hell finish it.

Now that is an attitude you should truly be proud of. I didn't support the initial US "invasion" into Iraq, but once started, you damn well better finish. I must applaud Bush for that, because America sure as hell didn't finish up in Afghanistan (was Clinton pres then?), as Canadian troops are still over there cleaning up after you guys. I think that's one of the main reasons why Cretien declined to join the US in Iraq, he assumed (and had a valid reason) that the US would sweep through and then Canada would be left there cleaning up for years.

boingo82
12-07-2003, 10:54 PM
Well, first let me say that I AM circumcised, and it was for religious reasons. My parents are Christians, and they DID have a choice. When I was born the OB/GYN asked their preferance. In recent years though, I've seen a lot of uproar caused by the fact that physicians DIDN'T consult the parents, and went ahead with it. There've been several lawsuits over this, and I believe the parents won (and rightfully so!)..

It's not required by the Christian church. It was mandated in the Old Testament, but Jesus dying on the cross released Christians from all of those Old-Testament requirements. Such as the one in Leviticus saying you cannot have intercourse with a woman after her period until she sacrifices two turtle doves. There are a LOT of Old-Testament things people don't do anymore..
Anyhow, it says in the New Testament not to circ - whatever happened to that "made in God's image" and "don't mutilate his creation" thing? I think it's so ingrained in our culture now that a lot of people don't even question it, or they think they HAVE to because everyone else is. (If you are around 20-30 years old, then the national rate at the time of your birth was 75-90% - a lot of people wanted their children to "match" the others.

As for the reason it is prevalent in the US is because that the western world is still dominated by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Hence the reason we don't allow gay marriages (while quite a few European countries do; I could name about 13 right now) and the legalization of marijuana, even for medicinal purposes (which certain European countries have adopted for "recreational" purposes, along with harder drugs).

Actually you'd probably be surprised to find out that circ was popularized here starting in about 1850-something to "cure" masturbation, which was believed to cause almost everything from dementia to headaches to blood infection. Back at this time they would forcibly circumcise known masturbators without any anesthesia, as a form of punishment for masturbating. Females would have a clitoridectomy, (clitoris removed) to cure masturbation and other disorders.
One of the biggest proponents of circumcision was John Harvey Kellogg, founder of Kellog's cereals. He claimed that Kellogg brand cereals could cure minor masturbation, and recommended circ for more extreme cases. Herbert Graham also claimed that his crackers (graham crackers) and flour cured the chronic mastubator.

That's the reason it's still practiced. I personally don't believe that these Christian ideals will last too much longer. I feel that we're moving toward a more liberal, perhaps "agnostic" country. I'm a Christian, but I really don't believe this is a bad thing. Our Constution states that we have Freedom of Religion...but doesn't that give you freedom FROM religion as well?!
As an aside, there are quite a few websites out there documenting people who believe that they should have had the choice, not their parents, being as it was their body. They feel a loss. What they've discovered is that they can TECHNICALLY regrow the foreskin. This is involved using weights that you affix to the skin of you penis and it drags the skin down. Doing this often enough, long enough will cause the skin to lengthen, thus drawing down in a "hood". Men who have tried this have expressed an increased sensitivity (a petty debate that has been waged for some time regards the fact that if you are circumsised, you lose a lot of sensation, due to the fact that your exposed "member" is constantly rubbing against rough clothing, and not protected by the foreskin).

Oh, I am well aware of restoration. :) Unfortunately you can restore only some of the function of the foreskin, namely the function of covering the glans and protecting it from rubbing against clothing, which desensitizes it.
Unfortunately there are some unique parts, such as the 40,000-odd nerve endings and the Meissner's corpscules, (sp?) and the ridged bands and frenulum that cannot be restored.

..Boingo, I don't mean any offense to you, so please don't take any, but I noticed that you're from Utah (yeah, you know what's coming). Are you Mormon, by chance? If you are, what is their belief? If not, are you religious?

It's none of my business, if you don't want to answer. I was just curious because of the subject.

No offense taken, of course. :) I do reside in Utah, but I am not LDS. I am aethiest but actually fit in quite well here because I am a non-smoker and almost-never-drinker.
The book of Mormon actually condemns circ (Moroni 8:8), but I don't think most people realize that because the rate is about 90% here. (Nationally, the rate is 55% circ, with as low as 30% on the western coastal states.) People here get offended when someone has a tattoo, because they are "defiling God's creation" but not when someone chooses to CUT OFF pieces of their baby. Makes no sense.

The reason I brought this topic up in this thread is I'm reading a book examining the possible societal impact of RIC (routine infant circ). For example the disproportionately high rate of rape and murder that the US has compared to other prosperous countries. Did you know we're the only "developed" country that continues to circ the majority of its infants, in the face of medical fact? Only in Africa and Israel is circ as prevalent.

Anyway I was thinking about our foreign policy, and the fact that we think that as long as we're bigger and more powerful than a country, we can do whatever we want to them. I wonder what goes through the mind of a baby boy having part of his penis cut off without anesthesia. Maybe he is learning that as long as you are bigger and more powerful than someone (as the doctors are to him), you can take anything you want from them.
I know it is a long stretch. I just can't understand how anybody, even a parent, should be able to amputate parts of a healthy baby 'just because'. Don't we all have a basic right to our own, intact body, to do with as we please? If we as a country cannot respect that right, do not be surprised when we disregard the rights of other nations.

TexasF355F1
12-07-2003, 11:10 PM
I just can't understand how anybody, even a parent, should be able to amputate parts of a healthy baby 'just because'. Don't we all have a basic right to our own, intact body, to do with as we please? If we as a country cannot respect that right, do not be surprised when we disregard the rights of other nations.
That question is answered quite easily. Parents do what they are use to and what they see fits. Hence, if the father is circumcised then the baby will follow suit. Parents usually do what they see is right or whether they want it done or not. I just don't understand why its such a big deal? If you don't want you son circumcised then don't cut it. But you can't tell other people how they should raise there own children and what they should and shouldn't do to them. The only thing ALL parents should do is be good to there kids and actually care about whats going on in there lives.

boingo82
12-07-2003, 11:25 PM
That question is answered quite easily. Parents do what they are use to and what they see fits. Hence, if the father is circumcised then the baby will follow suit. Parents usually do what they see is right or whether they want it done or not. I just don't understand why its such a big deal? If you don't want you son circumcised then don't cut it. But you can't tell other people how they should raise there own children and what they should and shouldn't do to them. The only thing ALL parents should do is be good to there kids and actually care about whats going on in there lives.

Part of the fun of being in this country is that I can have an opinion on anything I want, and loudly so, if I want.
I'm not into "telling" people what to do, just informing them so they can make an educated decision. That way, if they DO decide to circ, they can at LEAST make sure the baby gets anesthesia. (between 60% and 75% have no anesthesia at all) In this country, it is illegal to perform surgery on a cat or dog or bird or whatever without pain relief, but not on newborns. Some doctors claim they can't feel pain. Anyone who's been near a baby knows that's BS.
Meanwhile, it's illegal to do any sort of analogous surgery on female babies. Only male babies are discriminated against.
And we can agree to disagree, but I personally would be pissed if ANY part of me was amputated for cosmetic reasons without my consent. A lot of men don't care, and a lot of men don't want to think about it. But I still think the choice should be up to the PERSON.

Solomon219
12-08-2003, 12:23 AM
The reason I brought this topic up in this thread is I'm reading a book examining the possible societal impact of RIC (routine infant circ). For example the disproportionately high rate of rape and murder that the US has compared to other prosperous countries.

I'm interested in the title of this book, as it sounds like an interesting read. I'm always interested in the "other side" of the story, so that no-one may accuse me of possessing a lack of infromation. Truthfully, how can you form an educated opinion without examining all sides of the issue? Let me go ahead and ask, though: What is the correlation between circumcision and rape? The fact that the male was "traumatized" as an infant because his foreskin was cut? Does it go into the following quote, where males are bigger and more powerful and can subject lesser subjects (i.e. women) to their will? I've always seen rape as a power/control thing, but also as someone who has an intense hatred for women, so that he must humiliate them.


Anyway I was thinking about our foreign policy, and the fact that we think that as long as we're bigger and more powerful than a country, we can do whatever we want to them. I wonder what goes through the mind of a baby boy having part of his penis cut off without anesthesia. Maybe he is learning that as long as you are bigger and more powerful than someone (as the doctors are to him), you can take anything you want from them.


I haven't read this book of yours (though I'd like to) or seen any other studies, but I do believe there is intense pain, and that anesthesia should be used. However, I fail to see how this would have any lasting mental impact on the child, even sub-consciously. I do not believe that a child becomes "impressionable" until farther on in life than 8 weeks, unless it is an abuse that is repeated. Most people have trouble remembering things from before they were 3 years old. So does the book address this?

Solomon219
12-08-2003, 12:29 AM
I disagree there...I'm willing to bet Canadians are more "free" (whatever that even means these days)


Now I don't disagree that you may have more freedom ('specially regarding weed) and I have to admire your medical care, but don't you guys pay a SHITload in taxes?

I'm not bein' a smart-ass, I'm really wondering. I heard somewhere that it was like, 60%, but why listen to them (whoever they were) when I can ask a Canuck himself?!?

Also, if you don't mind, can you give me a few examples of other freedoms that Canadians have, that Americans don't?

Oz
12-08-2003, 04:34 AM
I don't think he was talking about the America Jr.'s (Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, etc.) which is probably what you were getting at with the BS statement. "Well, in Austrailia I can do everything you can in the US but without all the blah, blah, blah." :biggrin:
Doesn't bother me at all. Just proves my point about arrogance nicely. We don't need you as 'Big Brother', we don't think of you as 'Big Brother', get over your concept of your own self importance as a people.

Oz
12-08-2003, 04:38 AM
it's just too scary right now. The only place Americans are truly safe is here, and in light of 9/11... Dark times...
:lol2: Go you independant scholarly thinker you! They've got you hook, line and sinker buddy. :thumbsup:

Dan_in_WA
12-08-2003, 11:36 AM
Doesn't bother me at all. Just proves my point about arrogance nicely. We don't need you as 'Big Brother', we don't think of you as 'Big Brother', get over your concept of your own self importance as a people.

More blanket statements intended to cover anyone who lives under the US flag. I stand by what I said earlier. You rant against US citizens as a group, and direct it to individual US citizens.

You have no idea about who I am, yet I'm listed under your "Arrogant American" profile in your brain.

Not that I give a fuck. Hate on us all you want, just don't try to deny it - because it's obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

Go ahead and BAN ME. I'll never know, as there is no reason for me to ever come back anyway. Arguing on the 'net is like the Special Olympics.

As to the rest of the board, it's been nice BS'ing with you all! :iceslolan

Solomon219
12-08-2003, 11:58 AM
:lol2: Go you independant scholarly thinker you! They've got you hook, line and sinker buddy. :thumbsup:

Should I not be worried? I'm sure as hell not trying to set Americans up as martyrs, but this is a time where it's definitely NOT good to be American overseas, and this is because of the blanket American stereotype, not for anything the individual has done as a person. Even in Australia I'm sure there's quite a bit of anti-American sentiment going around (I've even seen some on AF :iceslolan ).

This sentiment has even been brought to America's shores. (i.e. 9/11) The chances of me ever being caught in a terrorist "incident" is remote, I know, but it's still something that sticks in your mind.

So what do you mean by the above quote? The terrorists have us "hook, line, and sinker"? That was their goal, yes, to cause civil unrest and a general fear in the populace. Should we NOT be affected? Just continue on as before, travelling overseas?

I think the world's view of Americans has changed, forever.

TexasF355F1
12-08-2003, 02:05 PM
Part of the fun of being in this country is that I can have an opinion on anything I want, and loudly so, if I want.
I'm not into "telling" people what to do, just informing them so they can make an educated decision. That way, if they DO decide to circ, they can at LEAST make sure the baby gets anesthesia. (between 60% and 75% have no anesthesia at all) In this country, it is illegal to perform surgery on a cat or dog or bird or whatever without pain relief, but not on newborns. Some doctors claim they can't feel pain. Anyone who's been near a baby knows that's BS.
Meanwhile, it's illegal to do any sort of analogous surgery on female babies. Only male babies are discriminated against.
And we can agree to disagree, but I personally would be pissed if ANY part of me was amputated for cosmetic reasons without my consent. A lot of men don't care, and a lot of men don't want to think about it. But I still think the choice should be up to the PERSON.
I understand what your saying. Its just hard to leave something up to the person, when they have x amount of years until they can support themselves and their ideals. Parents usually do what they see is best. I was just stating my opinion on your opinion. I in no way wanted to offend you. I think I did, so I am sorry and I appologize.

Oz
12-08-2003, 03:30 PM
More blanket statements intended to cover anyone who lives under the US flag. I stand by what I said earlier. You rant against US citizens as a group, and direct it to individual US citizens.

Actually, not at all. I was pointing out both blindside.AMG and Solomon219 as examples of the extreme arrogance of the US mindset.

And your post is another good example of ignorance. As in, being too apathetic to find out what the hell is truly going on, despite the fact the information is under your nose.

Oz
12-08-2003, 03:39 PM
So what do you mean by the above quote? The terrorists have us "hook, line, and sinker"? That was their goal, yes, to cause civil unrest and a general fear in the populace. Should we NOT be affected? Just continue on as before, travelling overseas?

I think the world's view of Americans has changed, forever.
*sigh*

No, I mean the media institutionalised and sensationalised mindset has you hook, line and sinker. Dangerous time to travel? Gimme a break. What exactly makes it dangerous?

Solomon219
12-08-2003, 04:51 PM
Perhaps you're right... Sorry if I was a bit terse. But what I'm basing my "travel worries" on is just what the media says, and how all US embassies are being evacuated. But surely there's a little truth in there.

boingo82
12-08-2003, 05:14 PM
I'm interested in the title of this book, as it sounds like an interesting read. I'm always interested in the "other side" of the story, so that no-one may accuse me of possessing a lack of infromation. Truthfully, how can you form an educated opinion without examining all sides of the issue? Let me go ahead and ask, though: What is the correlation between circumcision and rape? The fact that the male was "traumatized" as an infant because his foreskin was cut? Does it go into the following quote, where males are bigger and more powerful and can subject lesser subjects (i.e. women) to their will? I've always seen rape as a power/control thing, but also as someone who has an intense hatred for women, so that he must humiliate them.



I haven't read this book of yours (though I'd like to) or seen any other studies, but I do believe there is intense pain, and that anesthesia should be used. However, I fail to see how this would have any lasting mental impact on the child, even sub-consciously. I do not believe that a child becomes "impressionable" until farther on in life than 8 weeks, unless it is an abuse that is repeated. Most people have trouble remembering things from before they were 3 years old. So does the book address this?

You can find the book at Amazon.com. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964489538/qid=1070919144//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl14/103-4111619-2785426?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

The book doesn't really reach specific conclusions - no studies have been done on the long term effects of this kind of trauma on infants. However it brings up a lot of correlations - which could be due to other factors - such as the way the murder and rape rates have been rising in proportion to the circ rate.
Most people DO have trouble remembering things from when they are very young - in fact many people CAN'T - but whether or not those memories are "there" but just in the subconscious where they're inaccessible is up for debate. Then there is the question of how our subconscious memory affects us. There are a few cases mentioned where a 3-year old child recalled specific detailss about his birth that he hadn't been told about, asking why did people have paper on their faces (the doctors' masks) and why did they put a squeezy thing in his nose, and why did they strap his arms and legs to a board and cut his pee-pee with a scissors. It is very rare for children and especially adults to recall circumstances of their birth, but it has happened.
Some things that HAVE been proven are that infants are more immediately bonded to their mothers than fathers, as they are born knowing the mother's smell and the mother's voice. It has also been established that one of the most common "complications" of circumcision is breastfeeding interruption - where post-circ, a formerly happy child REFUSES to breastfeed under any circumstances.
What isn't established is why this happens. It's supposed that because the infant only knows his mother, he blames her for anything and everything he experiences, and that refusing her shows a lack of trust.
Then there is the rape thing - they don't reach any specific conclusions as no studies have been done - but it HAS been shown that many rapists act out of hate for a specific woman or for all women in general, and they tend to act out that hate on a random or chosen victim BECAUSE she is female, even though she's not the one they're mad at. And it has been shown that a greater percentage of circ'd men become rapists than intact men. But it's hard to say why this is. There are so many factors that could affect it, and like I said, studies have not been done.
Obviously circumcision cannot be a blame-all cause-all for rape and murder, because not every circ'd man rapes and murders. But there is a question of how trauma at such an early age can affect the psyche.

In any case, it's a very interesting read whether you agree or not. I perfectly understand your desire to know more - I started out from a "I won't do it to my kids but other parents can make their own choices" view and the more I read, the more I think, "Why would ANYBODY choose this for someone they loved? I wouldn't wish unauthorized cosmetic surgery on my worst enemy, let alone unanesthetized surgery." I think the more you read the more horrifying it becomes. This is a surgery, after all, that is not recommended by a single medical organization worldwide.

Another good book is What your doctor may not tell you about Circumcision (Paul M. Fleiss, Frederick M. Hodges ), and What every parent should know about circumcision (Anne Briggs).
You'll have a hard time finding the second one though, it's out of print and I bought the last used one off Amazon.


I understand what your saying. Its just hard to leave something up to the person, when they have x amount of years until they can support themselves and their ideals. Parents usually do what they see is best. I was just stating my opinion on your opinion. I in no way wanted to offend you. I think I did, so I am sorry and I appologize.

I'm not offended. Just kinda passionate about the subject matter. I understand what you mean - when you first have a child it's hard to realize they'll ever be full-grown and a "real person" - it seems ages away. I honestly doubt that many parents choose circ out of malice - I think they just don't realize what exactly they're consenting to. In fact in one study of 90 mothers who had chosen circumcision, 6 didn't realize that anything got cut off. They thought the foreskin just got "pushed back".
I won't sit here and tell you that whomever circ's their child is a 'bad parent' either. I am glad that information is so much more readily available nowadays (Thank you internet!!) but a lot of people just say "of course we will circ" without realizing there's an alternative.
My husband said that. "I am and I'm fine so why not?" But I wasn't content to not start researching, and my husband is now apalled that it goes on. If anything I blame doctors for being so willing to do anything for a quick (15-40 minutes) buck ($200-450). Many doctors don't even provide parents with aftercare instructions, and so the babies develop problems requiring further surgery and doctor visits (more $$$). Did you know that the foreskins are sold to bio-tech research companies and cosmetic companies to be made into skin grafts and face creams? More $$$.
http://www.nbc10.com/health/1808693/detail.html
Anyway, I CAN see where you're coming from. I just think it's a subject worth being educated about. Just as I recommend people go to www.hwysafety.org before buying a car so they don't buy a
Chevy Venture/Pontiac Transport/Olds Silhouette. (http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/96026.htm)

Oz
12-08-2003, 05:26 PM
I'm basing my "travel worries" on is just what the media says But surely there's a little truth in there.
Surely you realise just how badly you contradicted 99.9% of your previous statements. Either practice what you preach or stop preaching.

Solomon219
12-08-2003, 05:30 PM
I'm just tryin' to keep the Mod happy... s'Not good to have a Mod as an enemy.

Heep
12-08-2003, 06:22 PM
Now I don't disagree that you may have more freedom ('specially regarding weed) and I have to admire your medical care, but don't you guys pay a SHITload in taxes?

I'm not bein' a smart-ass, I'm really wondering. I heard somewhere that it was like, 60%, but why listen to them (whoever they were) when I can ask a Canuck himself?!?

Also, if you don't mind, can you give me a few examples of other freedoms that Canadians have, that Americans don't?

I'm not positive what tax rates on income and stuff are, but New Brunswick, where I live, has basically the highest Canadian sales tax at 15%...Alberta has 0.000% sales tax...lucky bastards :p

All I can think of right now regarding freedoms are the "naughty" ones like recreational marijuana, legal to buy liquor at 19, 18 in some provinces, and topfreedom for women in Ontario.

Heep
12-08-2003, 06:27 PM
Did you know that the foreskins are sold to bio-tech research companies and cosmetic companies to be made into skin grafts and face creams?
Ew!

I've heard the excuse that it keeps the penis cleaner cause stuff can't get trapped under foreskin, but other than that I've never heard any reason why anyone should do it, or would want to do it. By the sounds of it it's far less common here...I can't say I've asked very many people about it or anything, but I'm uncut, and as far as I know every one of my friends is uncut...

boingo82
12-08-2003, 07:50 PM
Ew!

I've heard the excuse that it keeps the penis cleaner cause stuff can't get trapped under foreskin, but other than that I've never heard any reason why anyone should do it, or would want to do it. By the sounds of it it's far less common here...I can't say I've asked very many people about it or anything, but I'm uncut, and as far as I know every one of my friends is uncut...

Well of course lots of body parts require cleaning, but they're worth having so we keep them, teeth and hair for example. And quite frankly women can get pretty funky if they don't clean themselves, but no one advocates clitoridectomy or infibulation (removal of the labia) to make them "cleaner".
As far as I know the rate dropped sharply in Canada once the health care system stopped paying for it, which they did after finding no medical benefits.
The face cream think was the factor that grossed out my husband the most, I think. I mean, he isn't an organ donor because he's uncomfortable with anyone else using his body parts. So the idea of wrinkly old ladies rubbing his penis on their faces is repulsive, to say the least.

Jimster
12-08-2003, 08:22 PM
Most people in this thread, either don't know what they are talking about, or are trying to cover up that they don't know what they are talking about :rolleyes: That includes both sides of this argument.

Marky and Boingo seem to be the only ones with a grasp on what is going on here, rather than just pure and simple bias

Oz
12-08-2003, 08:42 PM
Most people in this thread, either don't know what they are talking about, or are trying to cover up that they don't know what they are talking about :rolleyes: That includes both sides of this argument.

Marky and Boingo seem to be the only ones with a grasp on what is going on here, rather than just pure and simple bias
Thanks for the insight there, Jimmy. Should we bow and scrape now or are you busy? :rolleyes:
Fcuk off.

blindside.AMG
12-08-2003, 08:45 PM
Thanks for the insight there, Jimmy. Should we bow and scrape now or are you busy? :rolleyes:
Fcuk off.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

boingo82
12-08-2003, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the insight there, Jimmy. Should we bow and scrape now or are you busy? :rolleyes:
Fcuk off.

1. Who is Marky?
2. I'm not really having the same argument that Oz is, so I don't see that me being right or wrong has anything to do w/ you, Oz.

Jimster
12-08-2003, 09:32 PM
Marky is Heep- I usually think that most people know that :lol:


And Oz, You are fully entitled to an opinion, but really it simply comes across as a passion-blinded bias, the US has done bad and has it's weaknesses- but not everything about the damned place is shite, insults highlight a weak argument :) While Solomon is mixed up and contradicts himself constantly, all in all it makes the thread either difficult or pointless to follow. Oh well, at least people know how to use paragraphs in this thread

I like Rays point about the Third world as well :)

Learning is earning

Oz
12-09-2003, 05:18 PM
Marky is Heep- I usually think that most people know that :lol:


And Oz, You are fully entitled to an opinion, but really it simply comes across as a passion-blinded bias, the US has done bad and has it's weaknesses- but not everything about the damned place is shite, insults highlight a weak argument :) While Solomon is mixed up and contradicts himself constantly, all in all it makes the thread either difficult or pointless to follow. Oh well, at least people know how to use paragraphs in this thread

I like Rays point about the Third world as well :)

Learning is earning
Much more constructive - thank you.

And my point was fairly consistant all the way through, with minimal personal attacks. :)

Heep
12-09-2003, 05:22 PM
More blanket statements intended to cover anyone who lives under the US flag. I stand by what I said earlier. You rant against US citizens as a group, and direct it to individual US citizens.

You have no idea about who I am, yet I'm listed under your "Arrogant American" profile in your brain.

Not that I give a fuck. Hate on us all you want, just don't try to deny it - because it's obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

Go ahead and BAN ME. I'll never know, as there is no reason for me to ever come back anyway. Arguing on the 'net is like the Special Olympics.

As to the rest of the board, it's been nice BS'ing with you all! :iceslolan
Dan, nobody is going to ban you, you've done nothing wrong. Now, I realize you were talking specifically to Oz here and may or may not have also been directing your comments towards me. However, I thought I made it quite clear that I was not going to judge any individuals and would be talking about the country in general, at least what I see of it.

Must be interesting for you to see what it's like on the receiving end of stereotypes based on nationality. When I go to the US, people tell me that "I didn't vote for Bush so don't blame the country on me" or "Stop stereotyping me since we're not all like that", but then within 1 or 2 minutes they'll be making "eh?" or "no doot aboot it" (which I've never heard any Canadian say in my life) cracks directed at me! So, Dan, you seem to appreciate that it sucks being stereotyped against...time for you to stand up and tell your country to stop being so hypocritical about it.
the America Jr.'s (Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, etc.)
I have to question if you have first hand experience in any of these countries, as you would realize that we're all very different from America. Britain Jr.'s? Perhaps. However, it's really only the US media that teaches the whole America Jr. concept.
1. Who is Marky?
Marky ---> http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/customavatars/avatar367_3.gif
:D:D

Dustin_S
12-09-2003, 07:28 PM
agreed. US is in major need of an even major-er overhaul.

justacruiser
12-10-2003, 02:54 AM
Well, everyone else has put their opinions in, time for me to I guess.

I think that the U.S. needs to change a whole bunch of shit.

For one thing, freedom of the press is a good thing, it keeps people informed, but freedom of the press to be totally biased and only report half-truths and lies? Nope. It's gotten to the point in this country that I wont even watch a U.S. news channel and only read the local stuff in newspapers. I go online to foreign news agencies for my world news. The U.S. media, ALL of them, are nothing but a bunch of fucking liars who are only out to make a buck and support whatever political upstart of the week they happen to favor. If this means shredding the decency of someone and reporting nothing but scandals and slander, so be it! It's nothing personal, just business.

As for the U.S. interfering in other countries business? We never should have gone to Iraq. Period. Why the hell should the U.S. be 'obligated' to help every goddamn country that has a massacre? I knew Iraq would turn into nothing but a money pit and a source of ridicule from the rest of the world. I don't believe that we should be the worlds police force. That can be the U.N.s fuckin job, so we should pull our troops out of the countries they've been stationed in forever and tell the U.N. to handle any problems that occur. Second, every other country in the U.N. loves to harp about the U.S. not being a 'partisan' country, so it's time to let them pull their own goddamn weight for awhile.

http://www.unwatch.org/pbworks/adsurprising.html

Notice how many other UN nations haven't paid their dues? Why should the U.S. have to fork over a full 1/4 of the U.N. budget as its dues? The U.N. apparently doesn't do anything but hamper us, why pay that much? Why pay at all? So what If we have money, we earned it! Why should we give it away?

As for the ‘terrorist’ shit that’s happening, I’d take a flight over to Israel and have the guys who built their anti-terror network show us how it’s done. Those guys are the best at hunting out terrorists and killing them, not bringing them before a U.N. court to waste time and money and not giving them ‘life’ sentences or hiding them away in Guantanamo bay, K-I-L-L-I-N-G them, as in they fuckin die! Ask the Israelis for help in training and techniques, maybe a bit of brutality would help in that sense, too bad this country’s been nearly emasculated since the hippie movement in the ‘60s.

As for the U.S. economy and the imports situation, folks, lets face it, one of the main reasons that our jobs are being deported is because of unions. The only point of a union nowadays is to get more money for less work. Period. Every time a company renews a labor contract, it’s more money and better benefits, for the same or less work. Start sacrificing a bit of money on the side and don’t go with union jobs, you just might get some results if it costs less and is less of a hassle to hire in this country.

DAMN it feels good to vent a bit! Haven’t felt this good in awhile. Anyways, that’s my asshole/opinion, I know it stinks, so what! So do yours! Later!

Oz
12-10-2003, 04:19 AM
:thumbsup: You're a keeper! Fucking great value post!

goat_launcher
12-10-2003, 10:19 AM
yeah, so...um....is this like the biggest thread ever, or what :screwy:

bobby28384
12-10-2003, 02:19 PM
I understand what you are saying as I read it from the point of view as someone outside of America. The only thing I question though, is if so many countries seem to hate us, then why is it when they're in need of some sort of economic help they come knocking on our door? We're in a lose lose situation. If we deny help we're scrutinized, and if we help we don't get reimburrsed and are still hated. You mentioned not involving ourselves with the way other countries are run. We wouldn't have if Saddam wasn't such an a-hole dictator. He's not a leader, he's a man in search of power and gets his jolly's off by torturing and killing people who dont do what he expects. He practically brainwashed a large sum of the people by his use of force. No one deserves to be tortured and or killed for something as unjust as not supporting the government.

Jimster, the reason those terrorists made it on the planes was before any sort of higher security was attempted to be put in place(they may have vary well still have gotten away with it even so). And even whats in place doesn't really work in anyway except by luck. Largely in part b/c they do it randomly. My mom has been stopped and searched a few times since 9/11 and she's the least harmful looking person there is. And having listened to many local radio talk shows, so many innocent people have even been strip searched. Don't think they're just stopping internation visitors, b/c they're not.


Is nudity that important to you? If so, maybe you haven't heard of HBO, Showtime, Cinemax? If you want to see slight nudity then watch NYPD Blue. I've seen a total side shot of a nake woman several times. I saw in your profile that your 16. You should be more concerned with school than seeing some ass in a shampoo commercial. As for the race card you brought up, racism runs rampant all over the world not just in the U.S. The vast majority of U.S. citizens aren't racists, it just seems that way b/c of the stupid ass media.

That's my opinion, in no way did i plan to offend anyone so please don't take anything personally. The biggest problem I have with America is everyone expects something for free and people get offended by the littlest comments. Political correctness is way overrated. There is a lot of things wrong with America, but there are also problems in the way every other country is run as well.

Woot! Go Texas! I totally agree. I really don't care much for the big G, and I don't think we should've gone to Iraq. However, HOW can any person of integrity just sit there and knowingly let people be ruthlessly killed, and brutally tortured. BUT, what makes the 'American' way right? I really like where I live, and everyone makes mistakes. I highly doubt GWB is going to get re-elected. Hopefully, we'll get someone better than Slick Willy, and the big G. Unfortunately, most people can't see past their own side of the equation. I'm sure there are things the government doesn't tell us, and they really shouldn't. Almost everything the government does is for the protection of a certain people. Oh yeah, and you know why racism makes the news? Because it's so rare! There is racism everywhere!! People just love to point that out when they're out of anything to say.

That's just my 14-year-old two cents. Hell, screw me then, right?

TexasF355F1
12-10-2003, 07:27 PM
Woot! Go Texas! I totally agree. I really don't care much for the big G, and I don't think we should've gone to Iraq. However, HOW can any person of integrity just sit there and knowingly let people be ruthlessly killed, and brutally tortured. BUT, what makes the 'American' way right? I really like where I live, and everyone makes mistakes. I highly doubt GWB is going to get re-elected. Hopefully, we'll get someone better than Slick Willy, and the big G. Unfortunately, most people can't see past their own side of the equation. I'm sure there are things the government doesn't tell us, and they really shouldn't. Almost everything the government does is for the protection of a certain people. Oh yeah, and you know why racism makes the news? Because it's so rare! There is racism everywhere!! People just love to point that out when they're out of anything to say.

That's just my 14-year-old two cents. Hell, screw me then, right?
No way man, you did a good job of explaining yourself.:thumbsup: Just cuz your 14 doesn't mean you can't/don't have a good opinion. Okay, some use there ass to think and then some don't. If you ever want to share you opinion on politics, make your way to the Current Affairs area. :smile:

Heep
12-10-2003, 07:42 PM
As for the U.S. economy and the imports situation, folks, lets face it, one of the main reasons that our jobs are being deported is because of unions. The only point of a union nowadays is to get more money for less work. Period. Every time a company renews a labor contract, it’s more money and better benefits, for the same or less work. Start sacrificing a bit of money on the side and don’t go with union jobs, you just might get some results if it costs less and is less of a hassle to hire in this country.

Excellent point about the unions. We've got just as many of them here in Canada and they're just as horrible. That's most likely the number one thing I hate about Canada. Unions. Fuck 'em. That's all I can say about them.

Oh yeah, and you know why racism makes the news? Because it's so rare! There is racism everywhere!!

Unfortunately you're right, racism is everywhere in some form or another. Some countries prefer to express it in blatant black and white, but we "civilized, racism free" countries (or so they say) are usually even worse. People are afraid to express their racial opinions, so they get all stored up and end up leaking out in any way possible. Blatant colour-based racism is indeed quite rare these days, but I assure you that racism is still very alive everywhere in the world.

Dan_in_WA
12-21-2003, 02:28 PM
KA-BUMP!!!

I'm STILL off the tobacco habit: For Goddamn near a fucking month now, or some shit.

But don't FUCK with me.... yet. Yeah, I fucking hate being fucking stereotype'd and damn sure don't inflict it on others.

How fucking long are these Goddamned cravings supposed to last?!

If anyone wonders, this is not a joke. I've been chewing coffee grounds when things really get unbearable. I'd been chewing Kodiak for damn near 20 fucking years. And I didn't spit. Pack it tight, no problems.

The heartburn has finally gone away, but the psychological addiction is still there. Anybody happen to know about how much longer?

I'm going to go post another rant under "Cigarette Prices", too.

Fuck you all very much!! :smokin:

And Merry Christmas.

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