Eclipse for dummies

ok i just need to know a few things for right now... an probably a billion things later... Is there a header for the GST an if not why? Do i need to mold the body to fit 97 headlights on a 95(cause i want the blitz kit urethane)? Is there a cold air intake for the GST? an anyone live in so cal, have strond mods an stay street legal? Thanks for the help! :sunglasse

also having trouble finding indiglo gauges for the dash, and wondering if its too weird if i want to greddy out my car but have the HKS boost gauge and SSQV, cause greddy dont have the gauges(unless im missing something) and i really like the SSQV....

ok i just need to know a few things for right now... an probably a billion things later... Is there a header for the GST an if not why? Do i need to mold the body to fit 97 headlights on a 95(cause i want the blitz kit urethane)? Is there a cold air intake for the GST? an anyone live in so cal, have strond mods an stay street legal? Thanks for the help! :sunglasse

Turbo cars use exhaust manifolds not headers. Use the 97 headlights and get a blitz front skirt for a 97 Eclipse and it will just bolt together. Turbo cars dont use cold air intakes because the air will get heated by the turbo anyway so its pointless.

also having trouble finding indiglo gauges for the dash, and wondering if its too weird if i want to greddy out my car but have the HKS boost gauge and SSQV, cause greddy dont have the gauges(unless im missing something) and i really like the SSQV....

If you want to spend 17 times more money than necessary to make your car fast go ahead, otherwise look for alternitives.

Unless your planing to make your car all show and no go in wich case by all means waste your money :icon16:

ok headers are exhaust mainfolds and yes they have them sfp makes a good 1, the 97 headlight will fit on a 97+front bumper,im not sure about a cold air intake but 1 can always be made by yourself, as for the gauges e-bay,greddy does have guages like boost gauges and the greedy gt b.o.v. is pretty good on dsm.
good luck and look at www.dsmtuners.com
1

cold air intake pointless for a turbo :screwy:
thats sooo not true. I felt a 10hp difference with my turbo prix there is no difference when cold but once the engine bay gets warm thats when you don't feel a loss.


marcus

hope this helps:
your exaust mani is really good, just port it out, there is no need to replace it...
bodykits aren't my deal sorry...
i live in west hills SFV area, and my ride is pretty far from street legal, 'just keep your factory down pipe, cat, and exaust' for smog purposes and bolt them back on once a year...
i love GReddy too, next on my list is a GReddy 24R Big FMIC, and eventualy a GReddy 18g turbo upgrade, and they got plenty of stuff for DSM's http://www.greddy.com/products/
http://search.shopping.yahoo.com/search/__yltc=s:14489115,d:14489115,sec:search,slk:button ,v:51;_ylt=Appjpc8q9OUuD0fAaXVBGTMbFt0A?p=greddy+e clipse&did=
also you will need a BOV you can recirculate and the type-s is great [that's just the way our cars are, until you get a VPC/MAF setup]

anyway check my ride on cardomain at the link in my sig... GReddy rocks... but be careful because alot of guy's in here will be like "GReddy is just a brand name, you can get the same stuff cheaper from other places... blah blah blah" which is true, but i can afford it with no sweat off my back, so...

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=95-99+eclipse+turbo+el+gauges&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&BasicSearch= (link to gauges)

cold air intake pointless for a turbo :screwy:
thats sooo not true. I felt a 10hp difference with my turbo prix there is no difference when cold but once the engine bay gets warm thats when you don't feel a loss.


marcus

You felt a 10 hp difference....yeah ok. :screwy: Anyway, a high flow filter will allow more air to be sucked in wich is good but a cold air intake is pointless. Once the turbo gets red hot the air will also get really hot and the intercooler is what cools it back down. There is no point in sucking in fresh air from under the car just so it can be heated to near exhaust temp.

Every serious setup that I have researched seems to have a bigger intake b4 the turbo. I am confident there is something to it. 10 hp...?

Every serious setup that I have researched seems to have a bigger intake b4 the turbo. I am confident there is something to it. 10 hp...?

there is a difference between an high-flow air intake and a cold-air intake. a cold air intake on a turbo car is pointless, thats why most manufactures dont make one (i personally have never seen a cold air intake marketed for the 4g63). a high-flow intake is different because its only purpose is to flow more air. not bring a cool intake charge. cold-air intake are for N/A cars. because the turbo is going to heat the air charge....etc, this all was already gone through. hope that helps. :thumbsup:

The thing to understand, and its been hinted at, is intercooling. If your intercooler is say, 80% efficient, any decrease you make to intake air temp will be cut down by 80%. So if you drop temps 30 degrees with a CAI, its really only like a 4 degree drop. Do the math, and it doesnt do crap for HP.

A less restrictive intake is a whole different story though, especially on small turbos. A turbo is just a presure mulitplier. So if you reduce the vacuum before the turbo (created by the filter restriction), which is the same thing as increasing the pressure before the turbo, it can make your target bost with a lower pressure ratio. For anyone that has read turbo maps, you'll know that a lower PR will give a better efficiency, which is of course a good thing. On ym 2g with 14b, I made a 20 dollar home depot 3" intake pipe. Even though it still necks down to the 2.5" turbo inlet, I picked up 60 Hz airflow... That all came from a cooler outlet charge from the increased efficiency. The reason I say it helps more on small turbos, is because on small turbos you most likely have htem nearly maxed out (t25 for example) so a small change in PR makes a large cange in eficicny. A larger turbo will make up the difference. But most larger turbos come with 3" or larger inlets, forcing you to get a bigger intake riht off the bat.

ok the reason I say 10hp is because thats about how much it takes for you to feel a difference. ok it makes no difference when you crank the car up because the engine and engine bay is cold there is no diff between inside and outside air. now when you drive the car around for awhile and the engine bay gets up to 100+ degrees thats when you would lose power because it's sucking hot air. I said I felt more power because when warmed up I didn't feel as much of a lose in hp.
now you say "doesn't matter because it gets hot anyways" ok then you know cold air is denser than warm air right? now if a turbo is going for 10psi it would have to spin more to feed the engine because once it cools down it drops pressure. now cold air the turbo doesn't have to spin as much because the air is denser therefore more h2o per square inch.
so if you take a two engines with the same setup and feed one cold air and one warm air the cold air one won't have to work as hard to get the same psi at the end.

thats like saying your going to pull the same time in 60 degree weather as 100 degree weather in a eclipse with the factory IC

my air filter was inbetween the radiator and exhaust manifold.
now it's behind the head light. I'm willing to bet :2cents: there is a difference on a dyno (with the hood down otherwise it's got ventilation)

just tell me you would get teh same power if you were sucking off of the exhuast manifold vs. nice cold air

ok now I have finals this morning in 45 min so I have to study.

laterz

marcus

another thing...I've seen cold air intakes on cars all the time. they make one for my turbo car.



marcus

gsxracer-You've been talking about your 'home depot special' atleast for the couple of months I have been on here. I now see other people with a pos intake. I have been to your website and I wonder if you could put a parts list of what we need to buy to do this. I am no plumber and I don't want to get home with the wrong adapters and connectors. Thanks

ok the reason I say 10hp is because thats about how much it takes for you to feel a difference. ok it makes no difference when you crank the car up because the engine and engine bay is cold there is no diff between inside and outside air. now when you drive the car around for awhile and the engine bay gets up to 100+ degrees thats when you would lose power because it's sucking hot air. I said I felt more power because when warmed up I didn't feel as much of a lose in hp.
now you say "doesn't matter because it gets hot anyways" ok then you know cold air is denser than warm air right? now if a turbo is going for 10psi it would have to spin more to feed the engine because once it cools down it drops pressure. now cold air the turbo doesn't have to spin as much because the air is denser therefore more h2o per square inch.
so if you take a two engines with the same setup and feed one cold air and one warm air the cold air one won't have to work as hard to get the same psi at the end.

thats like saying your going to pull the same time in 60 degree weather as 100 degree weather in a eclipse with the factory IC

my air filter was inbetween the radiator and exhaust manifold.
now it's behind the head light. I'm willing to bet :2cents: there is a difference on a dyno (with the hood down otherwise it's got ventilation)

just tell me you would get teh same power if you were sucking off of the exhuast manifold vs. nice cold air

ok now I have finals this morning in 45 min so I have to study.

laterz

marcus


The reason your car probably seems faster in the morning or when the engine hasnt heated up yet is because it is most likely running richer, as for saying it is faster in 60 degree weather opposed to 100 degree weather...well you will feel a difference because the intercooler is cooling the air better...im sure a cold air intake might make i little difference but i doubt it is anything noticeable.

sucking cold air is more efficient.
like I said before what gets more power sucking hot air off the exhaust manifold or cold air from outside?




Marcus

The comparisons between taking air from between the manifold and outside is unrealistic. No one in his right mind would put the filter in such a terrible spot in the first place (I'm assuming DSM, but it seems half of the poeple cruising this forum these days dont even have one). The stock IC will make cold air intake slightly more noticeable. Its only about 50 pwecent efficient worst case, and yes I have seen this number measured, I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my ass ;) Let do some math, shall we?

We will asume a 70 degree day. In my car that would lead to at least 100 degree intake air from the filter in the stock location. Boost will be 18 psi. The turbo will be 70% efficient at that boost. IC pressure drop will be 2 psi. Pressure drop across the filter and MAS will be .5 psi.

Turbo oultet temp is 328 degrees, and IC outlet temp is 199.

If we drop intake temp 30 degrees to outside temp:

Turbo outlet temps drops 42 degrees, but IC outlet temp only drops 21 degrees.

So as you can see, like I said above, a stock IC will cut the difference you make in half. A 21 degree drop might make an extra 8 HP or so on a 200 hp car, only about 6 of which will get to the wheels on an AWD. Thats less than 1 tenth and 1 mph in the quarter. And thats exactly the difference I found when I pull the headlight at the track. But I still do it, since every little bit helps at the track. On the street though, I dont see a difference.

Now the thing that most poeple dont think about, is that you cant really have a cold air intake on a turbo DSM with a stock intercooler, and you cant go driving around on the street with no head light. It sits right where one would put a cold air intake, hence the fact that no aftermarket makes one for our cars, with the exception of bushur and similar pipes that are all made for cars with FMICs... SO. Lets repeat the experiment with an 80% efficienct FMIC. All esle will remain equal, except that more than likely, pressure drop on a (good) FMIC is more like 1 psi, not the 2+ that we see with the stocker.

with the 100 degree intake temps, turbo outlet temp is still 328, but IC outlet temp is a balmy 122 degrees! Now THAT makes a difference.

Now lets drop the intake temps like before to 70 degrees (CAI). Turbo outlet temp is 278, and IC oulet temp is 112, for a drop of 10 degrees. 10 degrees drop in temp is not worth mentioning. 1-2 whp on a 200 hp car.

Conclusions? The people that have room for a cold air intake pipe are the ones that dont need it. Funny, isnt it? :) Also very important to note, changing compressor efficiency makes a very small change in outlet temps (and just like with intake temps, the IC will chop the difference down), while changes in IC efficiency make huge changes, as we have seen above, and as we have seen on cars on the dyno/track with FMICs. They work, plain and simple.

I'm sure this got really long, but I hope it helps illustrate a few points. So you dont have to rely on my constant babbling, the truth is in the math. I encourage everyone to play with the numbers a bit, you might be surprised at what you learn. If you dont like math, here is a great site:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

Check out the rest of the site, there are plenty of other cool calculators, and explanations of turbo maps, and other very useful topics for a turbo car owner. ;)

I will add a page to my site for the 20 dollar home depot intake pipe, and for the cold air solution I came up with, for my car with a FMIC. I dont have many pics, but I will try to write a good description. Check for it in a few hours.