B18c1-vortec=?(loooong)

Here is the deal, I am going to sell my 90dx hatch and move on to a 92 hatch and I am getting kicked down a B18C1 that needs to be rebuilt from my frend (Going typeR in his gsr) The motor is OBD1 and has a little over 180,000 miles on it and needs to be rebuilt do to a snaped timing belt (Bent valves fubar guides posable fubar piston) the motor is running cool right now but has a compression leak on the #3 cyl and its no longer making the power.
So my plans are to buy the 92 hatch and use the motor untill I have completed the rebuilding of the gsr engine, now, before I continue, I live in the bay area (California) and I need this car to be 1.Fast 2.Fun with awsome handles 3. Totaly legal and easy to smog... So going balistic on the engine is not an option... I am basicaly planing for 10.0:1 FI wiseco pistons and crower rods because this wont mess with my emissions (will need to see a smog reff so I need this to be all legit, I got 94 usdm ecu trany and motor all from the same car) I may use a slightly thicker head gasket to achieve a 9.5:1 ratio but no lower than that or it could spell trouble at the emmisions station. The head is going to be rebuilt with all skunk2 products (Except cams, gears and intake manifold. Those will wait for after break in) of course the engine will recieve new bearings and all the love it deservs before being thrown in the car, after smog it will get the skunk2 manifold, gears, some cams (Not sure which yet) and eventualy (When I scrape up enough cash) a Vortec centrifugical supercharger kit (The B16 Aftercooled one since I will be using the skunk2 manifold). So the questions are:
1. How much power will a fairly modified B18C1 vortec supercharged and intercooled engine make @ 8-9 psi, I see on there site there stock gsr put down 248whp with the aftercooler unit. I want to break 300whp and still be legit, doable?
2. I know there is some way to upgrade these superchargers, anyone know anything about it?
3. Does anyone know what kind of cams work well with a centrifugical supercharger?
Thanks for reading my story. :uhoh:

While most people will say go with a turbo, I say stick with the SC. All this crap about the crank loss driving the SC is BS. On a 300 HP honda you might loose 10 HP, and the fact there is no turbo lag I would take that loss. Centrificals are so advanced now, with technology, that they are taking over in the market.
I own a turbo car (dodge Daytona) and turbo lag sucks big time. And thats with 2.2L, your car is only going to have 1.8.
You can upgrade SC's by changing the pulley, so it makes more boost. With 9.5:1 compression, you can probably run about 12 PSI on pump gas 91 Octane.
That 248 WHP, is probably with the STOCK exhaust system. That is SO restrictive. Just putting on a header and 2.5'' high flow exhaust should get you to the 275 WHP mark. Then up the boost to 12 PSI and you should be well over 300 WHP. Plus cams and that other stuff you should be around 325 WHP total running 12 PSI. With that kind of power you should look into an LSD, a really good clutch + flywheel, and really strong axles.

While most people will say go with a turbo, I say stick with the SC. All this crap about the crank loss driving the SC is BS. On a 300 HP honda you might loose 10 HP, and the fact there is no turbo lag I would take that loss. Centrificals are so advanced now, with technology, that they are taking over in the market.


No turbo lag? If you think a dodge daytona with a tiny-ass T3 has lag, you would want to hang yourself after driving a centrifugal car. A centrifugal takes till redline to make full boost. Centrifugals make NO torque. Centrifugals have a powerband that sucks ass compared to a turbo. Centrifugals make soo much power, that's why all the fast hondas are running them, right? :rolleyes: The ONLY fast centrifugal cars are domestics, because they run lower redlines so they can run smaller pulleys and get more low-rpm boost. They also have a lot more displacement to make up for the lack of low end power. Don't forget belt slip you're going to get running a tiny 4 or 6 rib pulley, how much of a pain in the ass it is to change pulleys, how much of a pain in the ass it is to keep replacing belts, and once again how annoying it is to have no low end power.

i think that vortech superchargers just suck on honda and acuras i think that they should just stick to domestics but that is just my 2 cents

While most people will say go with a turbo, I say stick with the SC. All this crap about the crank loss driving the SC is BS. On a 300 HP honda you might loose 10 HP, and the fact there is no turbo lag I would take that loss. Centrificals are so advanced now, with technology, that they are taking over in the market.


10 hp? heres a desciption and definition of parasitic loss from honda/acura performance, "Parasitic Loss- A turbo harnesses this wasted energy to drive the compressor. Other compressors, such as superchargers, use a crank-driven pulley as a source of power. Though this loss can very low in low boost situations, the trouble is, supercharging can use up to 80 hp to produce the high boost levels needed to produce the awesome power these engines are capable of producing. This 80 hp is taken right off of the crank and subtracted from the total amount of horspower the engine produces. The loss of power caused by superchargers is called a parasitic loss " (1999, p86).

No turbo lag? If you think a dodge daytona with a tiny-ass T3 has lag, you would want to hang yourself after driving a centrifugal car. A centrifugal takes till redline to make full boost. Centrifugals make NO torque. Centrifugals have a powerband that sucks ass compared to a turbo. Centrifugals make soo much power, that's why all the fast hondas are running them, right? :rolleyes: The ONLY fast centrifugal cars are domestics, because they run lower redlines so they can run smaller pulleys and get more low-rpm boost. They also have a lot more displacement to make up for the lack of low end power. Don't forget belt slip you're going to get running a tiny 4 or 6 rib pulley, how much of a pain in the ass it is to change pulleys, how much of a pain in the ass it is to keep replacing belts, and once again how annoying it is to have no low end power.
It has a pretty big turbo for a 4-banger.
Honda's are the best cars to put centrificals on because they rev so high. The reason ''fast honda's aren't running them'' is because turbos have been around awhile but good centrificals haven't. Procharger is probably the best.
You can get a really small pulley to make full boost before 4K RPM, and have the BOV act as a wastegate and bleed off boost once it reaches whatever PSI you want to run.
And what are you talking about changing pulleys? Once and done. And belt slip is a thing of the past. It's called technology, they fixed all the old mistakes. Procharger has 8 rib belts.

10 hp? heres a desciption and definition of parasitic loss from honda/acura performance, "Parasitic Loss- A turbo harnesses this wasted energy to drive the compressor. Other compressors, such as superchargers, use a crank-driven pulley as a source of power. Though this loss can very low in low boost situations, the trouble is, supercharging can use up to 80 hp to produce the high boost levels needed to produce the awesome power these engines are capable of producing. This 80 hp is taken right off of the crank and subtracted from the total amount of horspower the engine produces. The loss of power caused by superchargers is called a parasitic loss " (1999, p86).
Yeah 80 HP if you are making over 1000 HP to begin with. And even at those levels, the turbine in the turbo is probably restrictive enough to take 80 HP away. That was probably taken from a roots blower anyway, they cause a lot of crank HP loss. Centrificals are way better. Yes 10 HP.

Yeah 80 HP if you are making over 1000 HP to begin with. And even at those levels, the turbine in the turbo is probably restrictive enough to take 80 HP away. That was probably taken from a roots blower anyway, they cause a lot of crank HP loss. Centrificals are way better. Yes 10 HP.

please show me a 1000 hp s/c honda? how many 9sec hondas u know are using s/c? a guy wrote an article on the increase of hp he gained after installing a jacksonracing s/c on his b16 si. it an was increase of 35-40 whp after parasitic loss, :disappoin vey dissopointing especially when he could spent the same amount on a t/c kit and gain double the power if not more than that amount. a rev hard t/c kit on a civic si jump to 252whp and 228 lbs of tq at 7 psi let me see a s/c do that. the main drawback with turbo is the lag. also turbines does not remove 80 hp, the only problem where the turbine becomes an issue is went it is bigger causing an increase in lag time, but this wii be able to create substantially higher hp gains due to it's increase in air compression.

i know u prefer s/c over t/c, but clearly for f/i applications on hondas,
turbocharging is clearly the best route if u want power. iv'e met people who installed s/c on thier vehicles and they were actually unsatisified if not dissopointed with thier results, some of them sold their s/c to get a t/c. of course some people elsewhere might be happy with the modest gains, i know i won't be.

10 hp please, show me your proof, sounds to me like it's your own theory.

please show me a 1000 hp s/c honda? how many 9sec hondas u know are using s/c? a guy wrote an article on the increase of hp he gained after installing a jacksonracing s/c on his b16 si. it an was increase of 35-40 whp after parasitic loss, :disappoin vey dissopointing especially when he could spent the same amount on a t/c kit and gain double the power if not more than that amount. a rev hard t/c kit on a civic si jump to 252whp and 228 lbs of tq at 7 psi let me see a s/c do that. .


Like I said SC's are just starting to get into the swing of things.
I could have told you JRSC's suck balls. And I already said roots blowers have the most crank HP loss.

Dumbass, the guy in the beginning said himself that the Vortech kit gives 248 WHP, is that not close enough to 252 for you?

Oh yeah the Procharger kit for the 99-00 SI is capable of 40 PSI. That can make 800 HP, but thats probably not close enough to 1000 for you.

http://www.procharger.com/honda.shtml

''largest power gains available for Honda applications''

It has a pretty big turbo for a 4-banger.

If you think a T3 that will support 300HP, tops, is a big turbo for a 4-banger you're a crack addict. The turbos supplied in ALL turbo kits (greddy, rev-hard, max rev, drag, etc) are all a fair bit larger than a T3, and nobody complains about spool problems with them.

Honda's are the best cars to put centrificals on because they rev so high.

Please, elaborate on this. Hondas are THE WORST to put them on because they have no torque to begin with, and the centrifugal doesn't help them at all in that department. Take a look at a 350 WHP vortech dyno here (http://www.clubsi.com/featured/siracer/siracer_dyno.jpg). Wow, peaks at 220 ft-lbs to the wheels and doesn't exceed 300 WHP untill 7500 RPM's. Hell yeah man, that'll make you go faster than a turbo :rofl:

The reason ''fast honda's aren't running them'' is because turbos have been around awhile but good centrificals haven't. Procharger is probably the best.

The reason fast hondas arn't running them is because they won't make them any faster. Vortech's kit has been on the market for about 2 years, procharger atleast a year. That's MORE than enough time for a race team to get their shit together and use one, if it was going to make them faster. The AEM EMS has been out as long as the vortech kit, and yet lots of people are using those. Nah, you're right, it's because centrifugals havn't been on the market very long :uhoh: Yeah, procharger is the best. If you can get over the massive issues they've had with their head units leaking oil and seizing up. Minor issue though to get rid of turbo lag though, right? :rolleyes:

You can get a really small pulley to make full boost before 4K RPM, and have the BOV act as a wastegate and bleed off boost once it reaches whatever PSI you want to run.

Not a chance. You could never run a pulley small enough to give you sizeable boost @ 4000 RPM's on a serpentine system. Cogs with a huge crank pulley, maybe. Otherwise no. Having a BOV vent off excess boost would do you diddly, the power gains you might get by having boost down low (if the system would even work in the first place, which it wouldn't) would be offset by all the extra power you're still taking to drive the supercharger faster.

And what are you talking about changing pulleys? Once and done. And belt slip is a thing of the past. It's called technology, they fixed all the old mistakes. Procharger has 8 rib belts.

Once and done? Please. Somebody is going to roll around on whatever setting for the entire time they have their blower. Nobody wants to run more boost on race gas at the strip or turn it down if they can't get premium whereever they are. And belt slip is a thing of the past, give me a fucking break. You've never owned a centrifugal, you go buy whatever other mindless idiots like yourself make up on the internet, you have no idea about belt slip. I don't know for sure what kind of a pulley system the prochargers for hondas ship with, but I can guarantee it isn't an 8-rib. Vortech sells theirs with a 4-rib, and a lot of base model V8 procharger kits designed to run smaller pulleys than the honda kits come with 6-rib drive systems, so I find it VERY hard to belive the procharger kit comes with an 8 rib drive.

And your last post "http://www.procharger.com/honda.shtml

''largest power gains available for Honda applications''"

Gee, that's such a shocker to see coming from the PROCHARGER WEBSITE! Even if prochargers did make more power than turbos, have you heard of anything such as area under the curve? Low end power? Guess not.

Like I said SC's are just starting to get into the swing of things.
I could have told you JRSC's suck balls. And I already said roots blowers have the most crank HP loss.

Dumbass, the guy in the beginning said himself that the Vortech kit gives 248 WHP, is that not close enough to 252 for you?

so now your comparing a b18 to a b16? :disappoin even stiil it's making more power at a lower boost, oh and this is only their first stage kit. im really getting bored of these theories and claims, until u get me some real dynos then we can continue.

Procharger V8 kits you can get with up to 12 rib pulleys. The Honda one has 8 ribs. I ordered catalogs from them, I got all the info about them. The head unit can handle 40 PSI, capable of 800 HP. And yes it's an 8 rib pulley, so go stuff it.
Procharger is much better than Vortech, they got their shit together. Everything about them is professional. When I ordered their catalogs, they send it first class mail and I get it 2 days later. I have not found any other company to do that, if they even sent the info in the first place-most don't. Anyway, my point was that ATI is better than other companies.
Yes I agree that you will still have less torque than with a turbo, but torque isn't really needed in such light cars. If you had identical cars, say GSR's, one with that 350 HP and 220 F/P's, and one with turbo with 300 HP and 300 F/P's, I think the SC'd one would win. Because once you are out of first gear, there is no more low RPM power to worry about. Plus the turbo lag of the other car will give you a chance to get ahead and the turbo guy is just playing catchup.
My point was that 50 more HP on the top end will yield better results at the track than 80 more F/P's of bottom end torque. Because, again, once you are out of first gear the only RPM's all you have to worry about is 6500-8000 RPM which is where the SC really makes it's power anyway.

so now your comparing a b18 to a b16? :disappoin even stiil it's making more power at a lower boost, oh and this is only their first stage kit. im really getting bored of these theories and claims, until u get me some real dynos then we can continue.

Increasing displacement doesn't do much for HP, some but more so for torque.
So, here is your dyno results. I couldn't find any at the wheels but I think the 278 BHP is just about right for 248 to the wheels.
http://www.superchargersonline.com/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=V4HC218-040SQ

And anyway the Procharger kit is much better. They say 75% HP gains, that means 300 HP on a GSR. Plus that is probably with no air flowing through the intercooler. And also that is with stock exhaust system, which is so restrictive I bet if you just got a header and 2.5'' exhaust you would easily be at 325 BHP, if not more.
I never like Vortech's air/water IC anyway. Air to air is the maintenance free way to go.
Like Boosted331 said since vortech only uses 4 or 6 rib pulleys the belt was probably slipping.

im starting to get confuse here, what are u trying to prove? when i gave u an example story of a s/c, u tell me that jackson racing s/c is crap. then when i tell u the results from a b16 u tell the results from a b18. are u trying to pick the cream of crop out of the s/c and comparing it to a regular t/c? if u want me to get all into details such as brands and crap, i can do that, such as turbines from turbonetics or rev hards stage three kits. my focus was to compare the difference from t/c and s/c in general which the t/c will come out on top.

whats this about displacement only helping tq, it helps both, especially after the addition of f/i. another is when u said tq is not needed for such light cars, please. just like hp, u can never get enough of it, whether it's a v-8 domestic or a 4 cyc. import.

with the website u gave me, do u really call that a dyno result? looks more like an advertisement and with advetisments, alot of times it can be biased on the products it promotes which is going back to what boosted331 said. of course im not calling that results bs but more reliable info would come from a dyno. as far as 300 hp from the procharger, so what? heres a dyno of a t/c on a gsr at 10 psi, as u can see its makes 300whp stock. just click on the first gsr motor @ 300hp
http://www.importreview.com/d_turbo.html
any higher power from both the t/c, the internals must be address, and once it has, higher boost can then be proceeded, this also goes for the s/c, don't expect to get 325 hp from a stock block.

if i don't respond it's not because i can't back it up or im ashamed to, it's that im getting really bored of this going back and forth.

Hey guys ill sum it all up for you so there are no more agruments....Superchargers take it in the ass..period!!

HOORAY FOR TURBOS

im starting to get confuse here, what are u trying to prove? when i gave u an example story of a s/c, u tell me that jackson racing s/c is crap. then when i tell u the results from a b16 u tell the results from a b18. are u trying to pick the cream of crop out of the s/c and comparing it to a regular t/c? if u want me to get all into details such as brands and crap, i can do that, such as turbines from turbonetics or rev hards stage three kits. my focus was to compare the difference from t/c and s/c in general which the t/c will come out on top.

whats this about displacement only helping tq, it helps both, especially after the addition of f/i. another is when u said tq is not needed for such light cars, please. just like hp, u can never get enough of it, whether it's a v-8 domestic or a 4 cyc. import.

with the website u gave me, do u really call that a dyno result? looks more like an advertisement and with advetisments, alot of times it can be biased on the products it promotes which is going back to what boosted331 said. of course im not calling that results bs but more reliable info would come from a dyno. as far as 300 hp from the procharger, so what? heres a dyno of a t/c on a gsr at 10 psi, as u can see its makes 300whp stock. just click on the first gsr motor @ 300hp
http://www.importreview.com/d_turbo.html
any higher power from both the t/c, the internals must be address, and once it has, higher boost can then be proceeded, this also goes for the s/c, don't expect to get 325 hp from a stock block.

if i don't respond it's not because i can't back it up or im ashamed to, it's that im getting really bored of this going back and forth.

While that turbo kit is doing 300 HP on 10 PSI, the Procharger does 300 at 8 PSI. And it doesn't say anywhere that it is on a completely stock car.
All the S/C applications are for the Jackson Racing S/C on that site you gave. Roots blowers create the most heat, and they are unable to be intercooled. Their efficiency rate is very low. Thats why I said you cannot compare the JRSC to a turbo app.
I said displacement helps torque MORE than HP, I didn't say it doesn't do anything at all.
A GSR block is so strong, you can get 400 HP from the stock block. All you have to take car of is detonation, otherwise the bottom end is plenty strong.

While that turbo kit is doing 300 HP on 10 PSI, the Procharger does 300 at 8 PSI. And it doesn't say anywhere that it is on a completely stock car.
All the S/C applications are for the Jackson Racing S/C on that site you gave. Roots blowers create the most heat, and they are unable to be intercooled. Their efficiency rate is very low. Thats why I said you cannot compare the JRSC to a turbo app.
I said displacement helps torque MORE than HP, I didn't say it doesn't do anything at all.
A GSR block is so strong, you can get 400 HP from the stock block. All you have to take car of is detonation, otherwise the bottom end is plenty strong.

as i recall, i never gave u a j/r s/c site. also i guess u can't read, on the dyno it says USDM Stock GSR motor IB "street" turbo kit 10 psi, so what part of stock do u not understand? :screwy: another thing. 400hp from a stock gsr block? how u get come up with this conclusion? safe boost is at 8 psi while 10 is pushing it. the strongest block to use for f/i is the ls at 12psi. hopefully u explored a little bit on that site because you will see a 672 whp from an ls motor and this is a real dyno not some theory of 800 at 40psi, hopefully u do have some dynos for what u are claiming.

as i recall, i never gave u a j/r s/c site. also i guess u can't read, on the dyno it says USDM Stock GSR motor IB "street" turbo kit 10 psi, so what part of stock do u not understand? :screwy: another thing. 400hp from a stock gsr block? how u get come up with this conclusion? safe boost is at 8 psi while 10 is pushing it. the strongest block to use for f/i is the ls at 12psi. hopefully u explored a little bit on that site because you will see a 672 whp from an ls motor and this is a real dyno not some theory of 800 at 40psi, hopefully u do have some dynos for what u are claiming.

I looked up the supercharger stats on the same site you gave me. They were all JRSC's. Yes I saw the 300 HP turbo one.
And when it says stock, it may just mean the stock block and internals. I mean stock everything on the car like exhaust and stuff.

OMG, 10 PSI is pushing it for being without detonation on pump gas, it's not saying thats what the block can handle. And the GSR internals themselves are stronger than the LS's, the only reason you can boost the LS more is because of the low compression ratio. In fact, in terms on detonation you should be able to boost the LS 16-17 PSI on pump gas, but the internals can only handle 14 MAX. Well, I know the stock sleeves can handle 15 PSI, rods atleast 14, but I have heard of some pistons melting for 12+ PSI.

I looked up the supercharger stats on the same site you gave me. They were all JRSC's. Yes I saw the 300 HP turbo one.
And when it says stock, it may just mean the stock block and internals. I mean stock everything on the car like exhaust and stuff.

OMG, 10 PSI is pushing it for being without detonation on pump gas, it's not saying thats what the block can handle. And the GSR internals themselves are stronger than the LS's, the only reason you can boost the LS more is because of the low compression ratio. In fact, in terms on detonation you should be able to boost the LS 16-17 PSI on pump gas, but the internals can only handle 14 MAX. Well, I know the stock sleeves can handle 15 PSI, rods atleast 14, but I have heard of some pistons melting for 12+ PSI.

ok dude if u want to argue about this subject thats not pertainng to this thread than pm me. when u do, make sure u have a dyno result of a gsr making 400hp with a t/c on stock internals, i would really love to see this. i have a friend who a has a turbo gsr and he is only pushing 8 psi, the most he pushed was 9 and nothing higher. go to the integra forum and ask them, they will say the same. this info about the ls better for f/i because it's lower on compression i already know. i didn' t want to go into details since it's not pertaining to our discussion. hold up do u even drive an integra in the first place? if u have no evidence of these claims than don't bothe me again.

Hey guys ill sum it all up for you so there are no more agruments....Superchargers take it in the ass..period!!

HOORAY FOR TURBOS

thank you. you read my freaken mind

i have a friend who a has a turbo gsr and he is only pushing 8 psi, the most he pushed was 9 and nothing higher. .

Yes on PUMP GAS 8-9 is the MAX you can run. But thats not saying that is all the internals can handle. Stick some race gas in, and you can turn it up to 14-15 PSI no problem. Detonation is the only enemy, higher octane fixes it all. I am not a fucking noob, I know more about Honda's than you think I do.
Used to own an 88 RS teg, then a 90' GS, and my mom owns a 2000 teg which I was going to take over the payments from her but decided not to. I know all about all 3 generations, and there engines. All were all-motor, but I researched F/I for over a year. I know what the hell I'm talking about.
Now how about you? Where does your vast experience come from O wise one?

Yes on PUMP GAS 8-9 is the MAX you can run. But thats not saying that is all the internals can handle. Stick some race gas in, and you can turn it up to 14-15 PSI no problem. Detonation is the only enemy, higher octane fixes it all. I am not a fucking noob, I know more about Honda's than you think I do.
Used to own an 88 RS teg, then a 90' GS, and my mom owns a 2000 teg which I was going to take over the payments from her but decided not to. I know all about all 3 generations, and there engines. All were all-motor, but I researched F/I for over a year. I know what the hell I'm talking about.
Now how about you? Where does your vast experience come from O wise one?

im still waiting for your pm, 400 hp dyno results, and not some hearsay.

To tran_nsx: You have to understand that PWMAN is saying that if you put race gas in a GSR with stock internals and boost it, what is the max psi you can run?

tran, you are right about a stock GSR not taking anymore then 10 PSI boost off pump gas but how much boost can it handle with racing gas, stock internals?

PWMAN says it can handle more then 10 PSI with racing gas, is that true? Perhaps my questions will make his statements a little clearer.

To PWMAN: I read what you are saying about superchargers... and I can understand where you are coming from. However, have you ever seen any numbers like how fast a stock GSR with an s/c can do 1/4 mile? If you can show how fast a GSR with an s/c can do a 1/4 mile it might help your claims.

Personally, I have a GSR and have been interested in boosting it. So far I have been looking mostly at turbos but what you have said PWMAN has sparked an interest in me at looking at an s/c. Just wondering if you can show some numbers, might help a little.

Thanks

Thanks for your help in clearing that up HYBRID180.

Prochargers kit is not out yet, so there are no dyno's to get yet. But I have seen Procharger kits on other cars, and it is nothing short of amazing.
I raced a 99' GT mustang with a Procharger once in my dad's truck. The truck had a 383 stroker chevy, about 375 HP and 425 torque. I had previously never been beat. Needless to say I got my ass handed to me. The truck has 4:10 gears so I got him off the line, but 200 feet later he flew by me.

vortech superchargers are slow and suck compared to a properly setup turbo kit. vortechs make no extra power until they have reved to the moon, they "tend" not always in all apps... to fall out of boost between shifts, they make good peak #'s but that is where it stopps, i have raced, installed, and driven the vortech units on many cars, they are great on a mustang or a big v8 but not for a no torque having 4cyl. turbo all the way unless you are auto-xing and then you want a eaton set up of sometype ie: jackson racing

WOW! What a long thread packed full of usless shit... And no one even got around to answering my questions.
I have descided I'll probably go turbo EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT AS RELIABLE AS SUPERCHARGERS, and you can argue that till your blue in the face. Some twin screw superchargers will whoop ass at low rpms on honda's but falls on its face in the upper rpms ranges due to heat and only lay a +100 whp on the top end... But your powerband looks like a horazontal plank... Anyway, there are benifits to almost all systems out there. One of the problems I see with all the *street legal* turbo systems out there are the manifolds, they are crap... Someone show me the light, I want to see a well manufactured street legal turbo system with good components equal length manifolds and an intercooler with BOV and everything else you would need for $4000 shiped to my door and I'll do that instead.