Enginering: German vs. Japanese

Now theres a question. Compair any nearly equal cars. Nismo 400R or Nowack N500? The civil Acura NSX or a luxurious Brabus? etc.

I, personally, can't really decide. Both countries are known for their "excessive" tuning of engines. :p LOL How can 400 and 500 bhp be excessive... :D

There pretty equaly matched but I have to go with Japanese cars. There's more after-market parts for them and there not as expensive

It's a tough call. Let me put it this way:

If I had to choose between a BMW 540i or a Lexus GS 430, I'd take the GS 430 instead because in this comparison, I believe the Japanese car wins over the German.

Now if it was between say a Mercedes S500 and a Lexus LS 430, I'd take the S500 instead.

As for comparing the NSX to a Brabus (you didn't specify a model), there is no comparison here if you take the higher end Brabus models such as the E-V12 or the S 7.7S. I think it is unfair to compare tuned cars to factory cars for obvious reasons.

Yeah I agree with Brabus. But I think germans have a lead over them in higher end luxery and sports cars. But with ecomony and everyday family cars japenese wins. Cause the only german co I can think of that is econmy and low priced is VW.

I was just giving examples BRABUS lol. :rolleyes: And not many NSX owners leave their cars stock. Plus Greman tuners are considered sperate manufactors. So ha! LOL :D I could have got an M3 (E46) but I imported an R33 GTR. But I think Greman and Japanese cars are both about equal in enginering. But newer Japanese sadans and family cars etc. are a bit cheap and gimmicy (no I don't think thats a word...). I can believe R&T said the IS300 was better than the 328i though.... :mad: lol

If you think about, not many Japenese cars that I've seen (Any sports cars) remain stock, man german cars are stock. I guess this translates into either, not enough satisfaction from Japanese car owners or a lack of aftermarket parts for german cars. I still like German cars better. They are sexier and not as small, even though the LS 430 is pretty big.

Originally posted by Racer 20
I was just giving examples BRABUS lol. :rolleyes: And not many NSX owners leave their cars stock.

I still don't see a tuned NSX beating a tuned Mercedes. I mean if you wanted to go all out, the Renntech SL7.4 can reach speeds of up to 200mph! How much tuning would have to be done to an NSX for it to achieve that?

Here's what it comes down to basically:

Performance: The Germans have the lead in this category followed by a close second, the Japanese. That's why German performance cars usually cost more than the Japanese.

Exotic Super Cars: No doubt that Italians have this category in the bag folowed by the Germans in second place.

Luxury: Germans and the Brits although the Japanese are not too far behind.

Economy: Japanese for sure and I would put Americans in this category as well. (Civic, Focus, Echo,...etc.)

I like German.

I thought this was a mistake, and maybe it was, but you spelled German "Greman" every time you said it.

Originally posted by Heep
I like German.

I thought this was a mistake, and maybe it was, but you spelled German "Greman" every time you said it.

You talkin' to me? I spelled it correctly.

Obviously he wasn't, because you spelled it right. It was Racer20 that spelled it wrong. And I like German better, but I'll probably be more likely to buy a Japanese first, because they are cheaper.

LOL greman... SORRY. :D LOL

Anyway, an NSX can reach 200mph just as easy as a Brabus, BRABUS. But I will agree that German cars are usually more high preformance. But only because of the 276bhp "rule" or whatever... Once they get tired of that "rule" and start using 8 cylinders for there high performance cars insted of maxing the car with turbos they will be about even. I see the Germans and Japanese fighting for "fastest car" or whatever in the next 5 years. And I also argee with you that us Italians make the best over priced, waistful even, exotic beasts with no less than a V8 and usually a V12. ;)

American cars...they have great cars in almost all areas but most lack a certain character that most high preformance, German, Sweedish, Itailian, French, British, Austrailian, and Japanese cars have. :)

Racer 20,

Where are you getting that 200mph spec for the NSX? The top speed for a factory NSX is 162mph. The top notch BRABUS vehicles can do around 200mph.

This argument brings to mind an important trait of Japanese industry, and underlying Japanese culture.

The greatest strength in Japanese engineering is not really innovation but inspired imitation.

There is pressure in the Japanese cultue not to stray from the concensus of the group, so it is difficult for Japanese engineers to embrace radical new technologies that aren't necessarily proven yet. Instead, they prefer to take and existing technology or concept and adapt it and improve it so that their "copy" will surpass the original.

For example, the Japanese totally copied the idea of a luxury sedan fifteen years ago, and now (in the U.S., at least) Lexus has Mercedes and BMW beat.

Another tendency in Japanese industry is to stick with what they know. A prime example is Honda, which started as a motorcycle manufacturer. Honda's expertise is in engineering small-displacement engines that are ridiculously effficent. Honda has moved recently to try to catch up in the market for high-diplacement engines by putting bigger engines in the CL, TL and RL. The RL, while clearly fitting the mold of a "luxury sedan," is still sadly out-classed by its peers.

One point I'd like to point out, though, is that once the Japanese make something work, they make it work well. ;) They take something they can do well, and beat it into the ground. You nearly have to trick a car salesman into selling you a Toyota or Honda that doesn't have variable valve timing. Hell, the Toyota Echo has variable valve timing. And a variable-flow muffler! On a car the only costs $10,000!

And then there's reliability. Holy crap, guys! Japanese cars never die.

Wow, I wrote a lot!

Silver S2000,

Yes I do agree with what you said except for the part about Lexus beating BMW and Mercedes in the US. What data are you going by when you suggested this?

i noticed that no one mentioned porsche...
hmm...
i like german cars alot...
they dont do much with turbos (except porsche)
and they dont really need to...
they do it with tech and big displacement
and they are definitely designed to ride fukkin sweet at ultra high speeds

not too bad if you ask me...

i do really like my honda though... but i cant afford a german car, or i would have one... ya know:licker:

I think a comparison of German - Japanese cars isn't realy doable 'cause they have different aims in there production. In Germany quality and safety are #1 on theire priority list. Japanese have very good cars(we own a '90 LS 400, it rocks) but it's not the same thing. Comparing only performance stats isn't the right way IMO. Else you could compare the RX-7 to a Porsche or an M3. The last M3 which wasn't available in the States has about the same performance as the latest RX-7 but they have a totaly different history.
About the copy thing of the Jap I don't care as long they make a good copy:bandit:

I based this statement on sales units.

Everything I can remember reading said that Lexus has sold more "luxury cars" than BMW or Mercedes in the U.S. in the past few years. The definition of "luxury cars" here and the context it which it was used in the reports I've read may or may not co-incide.

Perhaps I should have said "out-sold."

im gonna back ya up, i read that also, that lexus is above the german marques in sales here. and then lincoln and cadillac are like 4 and 5...
but lexus is up there in the group... i read that in autoweek about 2mo's ago:licker:

Originally posted by Bean Bandit
The last M3 which wasn't available in the States...

Which one was that?

i believe he means the one that was 340 hp
in road and track they said that it would have been a 50k car if it came here, so we got stuck in a 240 hp car... that is what he is talkin bout:licker:

OK, thanks.

no prollem

:licker:

Hey! Tghis brings up another question. Why does europe always get the higher hp cars that go faster?
I know emissions may have a role in this but, surely they could tune something to get the same hp or make a universal model.

europe has lower standards all around for impact, and all that...
they are also much more into motorsport over there,,,, the 4cyl kind... forced induction and such...
wrc, f1, all that good racing shit... we are "big dumb americans in v8 cars". that is why they dont cater to us as much...
we have yet to accept that there are cars w/ less than 8 cyls that can kick ass...

not to be puttin down the 8cyl... but it is generally true
thas why touring cars and the alms havent caught on all that much...
but everyone knows that a vette won the 24 @ daytona...
no one really knows that the audis dominate the le mans series though... ya know what i mean?

and... more of those cars are developed and even built over there, whereas we are simply a country that want to import... and as a nationalistic country, we dont like to import... sucks for us, cuz i want a scooby wrx sti
:licker:

What I like is that both countries are always tuning and inventing and improving there technology. I wish American cars were like that. Not that American cars can't be tuned to go faster etc. But they aren't as enthusiastic when it comes to tuning modern cars, more classics are tuned here in America. Which is cool too. Gives us character. :D

American manufacturers seem to be more interested now in techie gizmos than high-performance tuning. For examples: GM's love for OnStar and the Caddy's nightvision technology.

Quoted from the May 7, 2001 issue of AutoWeek
...Acura has watched its sales consistently rise; its 3.2TL now leads the way as America's No. 1-selling near-luxury mid-size sedan, eclipsing such competition as the BMW 3 Series, Mercedes-Benz C-Class and Lexus ES 300.
So, what's the definition of "near-luxury?"

Near-luxury is entry level luxury, the $28-38k offerings from luxury car makers; usually compact saloons. It's the cars that are cheap enough for mere mortals to afford. The TL is in that $28-38k range, along with the 3 Series, C Klasse, A4, IS, and X Type.

The 5 Series, E Klasse, A6, GS, RL, and S Type are all luxury ($40-55k), while the 7 Series, S Klasse, A8, LS and XJ Series ($60k+) are considered super or ultra-luxury (?) by some sources. These are just arbitrary classifications. Some call near-luxury Upscale.

Btw: Doesn't anyone else notice that Audi is BMW+1? The A4 competes with the 3 and so on...

As for Porsche, that's made by Audi so it all gets lumped up in there.

If reliability was my biggest concern, I'd take a Lexus--believe me, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi/VW has enough, albiet not alot, lemons to worry me.

However for performance, handling, and engineering--I'd take a German car any day. As someone pointed out, Japanese cars are built as excellent copies of German cars, but it's just not the same. I live in the states but subscribe to UK car magazines, and let me tell you, they rate on handling and performance. Lexus is the only Japanese car maker to get really good ratings. It is considered real competition to the German offering.

Also as flylwsi mentioned, the Europeans are more into motorsports, so their cars are built for performance. I'm still waiting for Lexus to create a racing (BMW -> M) or tuner (Merc -> AMG) division.

OT: In terms of luxury, Lexus, Merc, and Audi gets rated down for their interior, which I just don't get. The magazine CAR loves the BMW interior: material and layout. Does any one else agree.

Originally posted by jinushaun
I'm still waiting for Lexus to create a racing (BMW -> M) or tuner (Merc -> AMG) division.Lexus uses "L-Tuned," a segment of TRD: Toyota Racing Development.

Check out:
www.trdusa.com
www.l-tuned.com

So far, in the US market, L-Tuned has only put out parts for the GS and IS, but I think you get get much more in Japan.

Discussing cars...Man I love this site

Originally posted by jay@af
Lexus uses "L-Tuned," a segment of TRD: Toyota Racing Development.
Looking at that site...how could they mess up the GS's pretty face with that new grill; makes it look like any other car. The stock grill makes it look classy. The only thing I'd change on the GS is the rear.

LOL!! :D

Here's the global TRD site, in english: http://www.toyota-trd.com/en/index.html

They have parts for lots of Toyota cars, including Lexus cars, if you know the Japanese-market names. ;)

IS = Altezza
GS = Aristo
SC = Soarer
ES = Windom
LS = Celsior

Both country are world famous for building cars.

In Grmany you have Audi, BMW, Benz, Porsche and VW etc.

In Japan you have Honda, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, and Subaru etc.

I personally would pick different cars depending on the comparison.

For example I pick Honda S2000 over Porsche Boxter and Audi TT.

So far only Toyota have real success in cracking the European stronghold on luxury market. However there is very few chance Japanese luxury car reputation will ever be on par with European. When you are rich you buy BENZ you don't buy Acura. That' just the common idea spread through people's mind.

Originally posted by F20C
So far only Toyota have real success in cracking the European stronghold on luxury market. However there is very few chance Japanese luxury car reputation will ever be on par with European. When you are rich you buy BENZ you don't buy Acura. That' just the common idea spread through people's mind.
Unfortunately for Acura, I've never considered it in the same league as BMW, Merc, Audi, and Lexus. When I think Acura, I think Honda economy cars. In the UK, they don't even use the Acura badge, but the Honda! When I think Lexus, I think luxury, not Toyota. The fact that Acura cars have Honda styling doesn't help either. At least you won't mistake a Toyota with a Lexus anytime soon. Audi is trying to separate itself from VW, which is good.

Originally posted by jinushaun

Unfortunately for Acura, I've never considered it in the same league as BMW, Merc, Audi, and Lexus. When I think Acura, I think Honda economy cars. In the UK, they don't even use the Acura badge, but the Honda! When I think Lexus, I think luxury, not Toyota. The fact that Acura cars have Honda styling doesn't help either. At least you won't mistake a Toyota with a Lexus anytime soon. Audi is trying to separate itself from VW, which is good.

Acura is not in the same league because it lacks a real Flagship sedan to carry the torch. It also lack what other cars have which is RWD.

A lot of Infiniti and Lexus brand models we know in America are known as say Toyota RS200 Altezza or Nissan Cima (Q45). The only exception being you can see Camry in ES300.

Audi is still upset at VW folks. VW has been taking parts bin from Audi to increase their quality. The gap is getting smaller and smaller now since VW have W8 Passat coming out. It also have a D1 flagship that will rival Audi's A8.

Japanese only win as far as budget cars for the masses go, and even that is only in the USA. In Europe Japanese cars are outdone by European competitors in all market segments. Firstly, to my knowledge there are no luxury performance cars made in Japan, such as the Audi S8, Mercedes E500/S600, BMW 750/760. The closest thing Japan has is the Lexus LS430 which is simply not good enough to compete, which is clearly shown by its pathetic sales record in Europe. I suppose things are better for it in the US, but that is because in Europe, people value such things as style, traditions, design flair, and are not afraid to pay extra to buy the best, and not to be perceived cheapskates for buying a second-rate product, which the Lexus is compared to German luxury cars. Same goes for the sportscar sector - look at the BMW Z8, or the Audi RS series. The closest competitors Japan has is the Honda S2000, which despite being something like a third of the price of the Z8, does not sell nearly as well in Europe. And the Subaru WRX's and Mitsubishi EVO's, which ironically have been tuned by a Eropean company Prodrive.
Japanese manufacturers' single goal to make cars that are value for money. They want to have the maximum amount of horsepower for minimum cash, thats their only criteria. Japan does make some fantastic cars, like the Skyline GTR and the Supra Twin Turbo, but as long as they will continue manufacturing cars that concentarte on the money/horsepower ratio, overlooking such things as style, design flair, quality of interior fittings, they will be perceived as second rate to their European cars with which they are trying to compete.
And by the way, at the moment the most powerful engine in Formula 1 is BMW.

I don't see how a Z8 should compete with S2000. SC430 is more of a competition for Z8 than S2000 will be. Later on when 350Z Convertible comes out it too can be a possible competition. Especially the one with Turbo that makes around 350hp.

the thing i never really knew about jdm cars is that they are way higher class than what we get...
nissan makes almost everything in a turbo...
i think alot of us are thinking about usdm cars only...

but after reading the new superstreet w/ the nissan that is the same as our q45 in it... the one w/ 800hp...
hmm...
i want japanese cars...
and that thing comes stock w/ a turbo on it!!!!!!!

i guess we have to be exposed to what their luxury cars are really like, as opposed to what they give us...

Just lookit my flag, just lookit my sig!

Another note i dont remeber anyone bringing up: Who else is sick of seeing all the damn japanese ricer cars around? There's nothing i'd like more that to get an M3, tune it, but not put big ugly wings and stupid stickers and stuff on it; take it to a streetrace, and kill those damn ricecars. Nothing like thinking aobut a nice classy car creaming off one of those superturboutdone civics.

Steel: no arguments here. Just lookit my sig! I made it specifically for AutomotiveForums.com The M3--it will be mine!! (someday) ;)

Originally posted by Steel
Another note i dont remeber anyone bringing up: Who else is sick of seeing all the damn japanese ricer cars around?
I have no problem with ricers (they sometimes make me laugh), but I just absolutely--with a passion--hate those idiot reckless drivers. And, "surprise surprise", they're mostly teenage ricers who think they all big and bad by driving faster than the speed limit. Hey, I'm a speed freak myself, but that's no excuse for dangerous and reckless driving. And tail-gaters, ARGH!! Just bloody pass the slow car instead of setting yourself up for an accident.

Okay, end of rant. I'll release my road rage here instead of on the road.

I think it's unfair to compare a racing bred straight SIX to an economy minded straight FOUR, supercharged/turboed or otherwise. Also, there is a big difference in the displacment, 1.7 L ('01 Civic) and 3.2 L (M3), which results in a huge disparity in power and torque: 333 bph @ 7900, 262 lb ft @ 4900 (M3) and 115-127 bhp @ 6300, 110-114 lb ft @ 4800 (Civic). The Civic is a great commuter car--gets you from A to B reliably. Personally, I'm attracted by the fuel economy and solid Honda build quality. But, IMHO, it's not as fun as an M3. And the M3 styling can't be beat.

I think Civics and other similar economy cars are popular because of the social-economic situations of those individuals. Most teens (and their parents) can't afford super cars or luxury cars, so they make do with what they can. Unlike Nike shoes, it's not as easy to just save some money and get one. In time, a value system and appreciation for these economy cars is developed. They also become defensive about their cars. In the end, it becomes another facet of their culture and subsequent generations will share the same views. This is how alot of "ghetto-rooted" trends come into fashion.

Another aspect of the Civic popularity is that it's Japanese-made and a big number of its drivers are Asian. They feel that they are acknowledging their Asian roots by sporting Japanese-made cars (despite the fact that most of them aren't Japanese). I'm Asian, and I see this mentality alot among fellow Asians.

Btw, it's amazing how far we've strayed from the topic! :confused: Or maybe it's just me. :D

Why are people comparing Civic to M3? Compare cars that are simliar please. The competition I see for M3 is Supra and Skyline GT-R V Spec. They are all 2 door coupes. They all can sit more than 2 people. Although in the back of Supra is ultra tight. They all have inline 6 engines. However the Japanese counterparts uses Turbo. They all produce in excess of 320+hp. If you don't believe that go check the dyno plot for Skyline. That's another reason why cars like Evo7 and STi which are making 300ps with a lot less weight can only go high 4's. Whereas the Skyline can achieve 5 flat for 0-60 mph. All 3 car usually act as RWD. Skyline turns into AWD when certain condition are detected. All 3 cars have performance mark around high 4's to 5 flats.

It's called getting off topic. It's contagious and uncontrollable. It's a staple in any forum or board. That's what makes them so fun.

Originally posted by SolReaver
There pretty equaly matched but I have to go with Japanese cars. There's more after-market parts for them and there not as expensive

Ditto :)

I LOVE USING THIS CHART

file:///C:/My%20Documents/Kevin/reliable

There is my ever famous chart i use so much. As for Honda/Acura, I feel that Acura does areally good job putting out mid level luxury performance cars at very reasonable prices. As for Lexus, they are far more reliable than any German car, plus are damn near equal to any cars in their respective classes. I mean really you can't compare an LS430 to an S500, too far price difference. Hell and S430 has about a 10 grand base price over a fully loaded LS430 and the LEX beats it out in all performance aspects. I like to stick up for Lexus when MB fans say "well Lexus doesn't have a V-12." Really? Thats probably because Lexus has never had a focus on performance. But they still kick everybody's asses in the Luxo, quality, reliabilty, and value for the dollar departments. Case and Point I win again, HOOAH HOORAH BOOYA

My future inlaws had a lexus. The Cadillac they had was a hell of a lot better ride and that damn car was in the shop evey other month. Useless engine. I wont ever buy a new Toyota in the same way I wont buy a Ford because of that crap their putting in there now.













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You YOGS have been all over me today. You are intitled to your own opinion. But I merely speak with facts, justified truth, and my own opinions as well. PEACE

Originally posted by LiuBei
I like to stick up for Lexus when MB fans say "well Lexus doesn't have a V-12." Really? Thats probably because Lexus has never had a focus on performance.

Toyota/Lexus does have a V12 in production models. It's a 5.0L powerplant in the JDM only Century Limo.

Hey F20C, I get your statement, but really do they sell these Lex's at Lex dealers, No. Until I see a V12 in an LS sedan, I wouldn't consider them as having a V12 to compete.

Originally posted by LiuBei
You YOGS have been all over me today. You are intitled to your own opinion. But I merely speak with facts, justified truth, and my own opinions as well. PEACE

Fact - the toyota engines that my family has owned = piece of shit. Fact - we wont buy a toyota again. That seems to be a fact and in truth. So I dont know why you think I've been all over you. I dispute the findings of a for profit organization as being suspect. They do not publish how they obtain the sampling data - nor do they say where they go to get the data. (location location location) Until then, their findings are suspect and I will not take them at face value. Fact.













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back 2 the original topic, for pure mechanical engineering, Germans are by far the best in the world(e.g Porsche, ever since the early days they have had fantastic chassis'). The japanese catch up by using very advanced electronics(e.g skyline, and all its electronic wizardry)

they r both good, but i got to go wit germany.:bandit: :smoka: :smoker2: :ylsuper

i say germany because they produce better cars than japen does

I have owned both jap(honda and toyota) and german autos,mercedes and vw. Per mile traveled the german cars cost much more to maintain. My family has put well over 200,000 miles on all above.
I personally still drive my '81 300,000+ miles diesel rabbit, I love this car. If I were to buy another car for myself it would be a tdi vw of some sort, maybe a golf, that tdi is the best diesel engine of all time, including anything mb can put out. If I had to buy a gas auto it would be, hands down, the toyota camry. I love the honda's, but the interference engines shot that love all to heck, my daughters 91 camry timing belt snapped, it just cut off, easy fix. A honda timing belt snap would be an engine replacement. I'll not take that chance

Please read this (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=162405) before bringing back old treads.


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