Z06 vs. Murcielago

So heres the scoop, where do most of you stand in comparing the performance perspective of a Z06 to a Murcielago? I know the Mur. is pushing 580hp through its V12, but I look at everything else, and it looks pretty damn close. How do you think these two cars pair up against each other?

So far heres what I've come up with, on one hand theirs a Lambo, 580hp 480tq on AWD system, weighing in at around 3650 (as heavy as SVT Cobra). I've found some performance numbers that claim the Murcielago running 3.8's 0-60, 8.7's 0-100, and 12.1's 1/4mi, .90 skidpad, and a 65.7 slalom, and 122ft. braking 60-0. I think the fact that a 580hp Mur isn't running faster quarters maybe is due to its tall 205limited top end and + its heavy set body.

On a Z06 i've found them to be very similar, a 405hp 400tq RW of coarse, weighting in at around 3150, running 4.0's 0-60, 9.4's 0-100, and 12.5's in the quarter. I'm leaning torwards the Z06 in handling due mainly to its weight, 1.00 skidpad, 70.3 slalom, and 104ft. braking 60-0, but after that i'm pretty much at a dead lock. Help me out. I haven't decided which to pick yet.

The Murci would almost 100% RAPE. The Z06 has no chance, its still a beauty car but could never be compared to a Lamborgini for god's sake. Use ur head (jks).
But that would be very interesting to watch, I do have to admit.

:smokin:
.:C.H.R.I.S:.

I know what ur sayin, "damn u for writing so damn much crap", sorry bout that, but read this, a damn "good car drivin guy" told me this once, read it and it'll make u think a lot mor about cars and how they're used. again sorry this is so long but read it anyway.-True no doubt a Lambo. would zip by a Z down a quarter mi. but how much talent does that take? just mash on the gas and shift, wow. However i do know there is skill to drag racing, but not as much if u want to fully stretch out the cars full capability. If u look at the handling specs on a ferrari or lambo to a ZO6, the Z is better in every catagory except hp, and material quality. Put a Z and a lambo on an auto cross track and i bet u anything, the Z will be right there w/ it. i cant say how close but i would guess it'd be close. However, if ur not one to care about wether your car's interior was hand built or not and what kind of material it was made of, get a Z for 51-52k, slap on a supercharger for another 4k or so, and u get around 600 some horse to ur vette. and then u can smoke any exotic out there that is still stock. But if ur gonna campare cars, compare em in every capability they have, not just hp and "interior quality", compare em in how they perform on a track, because thats where u can truly test any cars, full capability to perform. thats how u truly know ur car can do better all around in every aspect. not just womping on the gas and going straight for a short while, test ur car to its max in all aspects. And with that in mind the Z will outperform the lambo on the track, u dont see lambo in Le Mans do u? Well you'll see Corvette in there, and winning a lot too. If u race on a track i think u'd be more appreciative of ur car's ability.

even if the z06 hangs, or beats the lambo, if someone gave me the keys to both of them, i would without a doubt go for the muci, then charge ppl money for rides in the passenger seat.

the rich people want to be unique
they want to show their wealth
they want to let people know "my car worth more than your house"
this is just normal for most people
when you have more money, you tend to buy better things, although the cheaper one may be better in someways
a Z06 is a great performance car, no doubt about that.
But this is a car for the less wealthy people
wealthy people have their alternatives, such as Ferrari and Lamborghini
its just that different things aim for different customers
although the more expensive thing might not be better, but it certainly is more unique, and that is what the wealthy people want.

Ok thanks for the input, but I'm not trying to compare the quality of a 250k vs. a 50k car, hell thats a no brainer. I want to know what you think of in a "peformance perspective". Last time I knew the quality of your interior doesn't reflect your performance. I did come to the realization that a Murcielago is definatly a faster car, but when you put them on the track, how would they fair. Cause from what I'm looking at, the Vette seems to have a marginal handling edge over the Murcielago.

Cause from what I'm looking at, the Vette seems to have a marginal handling edge over the Murcielago.

Yeah, that's because it's a z06...the suspension is raced tuned. The suspension on the Murcielago is not entirely optimized. Race tune the suspension on the Murcielago...and it will run circles around the Z06. The tyres are also different, so this is a futile comparison.

Yeah, that's because it's a z06...the suspension is raced tuned. The suspension on the Murcielago is not entirely optimized. Race tune the suspension on the Murcielago...and it will run circles around the Z06. The tyres are also different, so this is a futile comparison.

Actually the Z06 suspension is not entirly race tuned, because the Z51 package that comes as an option to the standard C5 equiped with Z06 wheels holds to the ground just as strong as the Z06 suspension package. It actually posted a better increasing/decreasing slalom than the Z06 and it was only .02g off the Z06. (Car and Driver 09/03). The Z51 suspension is stiffer than the equiped Z06 suspension, making it just as competitive as the Z06. The Lambo is just to heavy to be outhandling the Z06. Tires on the Lambo are just as good as on the Corvette, in fact the rear tires on the Murcielago are 13in. wide compared to a 10.5in. wide rear tire on the Z06, which in turn should give the Murcielago a marginal greater gripping surface.

Also I'm not getting into race tunning either of these cars. I'm making a stock comparison. Once you tune either of the two, their no longer being compared fairly.

And I am sure a racing tuned Murcielago would run circles around a Z06, and vise versa.

Didn't the Mustang Cobra R outhandle the Z06? So then the Mustang Cobra R can also outhandle a Murcielago...don't you think there's something fishy about this?:sly:

if you guys wnat to compare a Z06 to a real lambo don't compare it with the murc but compare it to the diablo. the later VT or hte 6.0 GT's can run with F40 and F50 ferraris. and those cars will absolutely destroy a stock Z06 at a race track. those are more like F1 cars for the road. and are just as fast as the 911 GT1 leman cars which races in a class higher then that of a vette C5R.

Didn't the Mustang Cobra R outhandle the Z06? So then the Mustang Cobra R can also outhandle a Murcielago...don't you think there's something fishy about this?:sly:

I'm not sure if the Cobra R outhandled the Z06, though its probably pretty close, but doesn't the Cobra R (not the Cobra) come completly stripped down? No A/C, backseat, etc., it probably lost a lot of weight. But then again its Cobra R, I'll have to check in on that

Personally I would rather have the Murcielago. Even though the Z06 can out handle it on the track, the Murcielago is faster. Also the styling and the fit and finish of the Murcielago exceeds the Z06 by leaps and bounds.

Do any Murcielago owners actually go racing? Most of those cars are used more to show off on MTV "Cribbs" or end up as garage warmers. :disappoin

Do any Murcielago owners actually go racing? Most of those cars are used more to show off on MTV "Cribbs" or end up as garage warmers. :disappoin

The sad part of that is that your probably right.

I'm not sure if the Cobra R outhandled the Z06, though its probably pretty close, but doesn't the Cobra R (not the Cobra) come completly stripped down? No A/C, backseat, etc., it probably lost a lot of weight. But then again its Cobra R, I'll have to check in on that

Opps...I missed your post before, the article was from Car and driver with the red Cobra R, the yellow Corvette and the grey Viper RT/10 on the cover...I have the mag at home, must check it out. but yeah the Cobra R has no AC or back seat!

Opps...I missed your post before, the article was from Car and driver with the red Cobra R, the yellow Corvette and the grey Viper RT/10 on the cover...I have the mag at home, must check it out. but yeah the Cobra R has no AC or back seat!

Hey I found a video that compares the Cobra R, Z06, and the Viper ACR. Its a really interesting video, check it out.

http://www.brisbaneperformance.com/video.php

Scroll half way down its there. I know this is off the subject, but what the hell.

Alright, thanks guys for your input on this topic. It was interesting to see which you prefered whether it be the Z06 or the Murc.
Hell I would prefer the a Murc over a Z06 given its rarity, craftsmanship, appealing looks, and superior quality, but please, I'm not asking which one you prefer. What I really want to know (and I hope that I don't have to say this for a forth time) is in your opinion on which car exceeds the other in performing. Granted a Murc. no doubt has superior rarity, craftsmanship, appealing looks, and quality, doesn't nessesarily mean that it can out perform and handle a Z06. A Murc may be faster than a Z06, but i'll bet a Z06 can outhandle a Murc. Let me know what you think, and try to back yourselves up with some info as I did, that way your opinion will be credible and actually more respected among others.

And sexy, the Z06 did out performed/handled the Cobra R, with respects that the R out performed/handled the ACR.

The Murcielago weights 500 pounds more than the Z06, could that be the reason the Z06 could out handle the Murcielago? If the Murcielago had a plastic intake manifold and engine covers like the Z06...would they weigh the same?
What about a track in the rain? Would the Z06 still be able to see the Murcielago's tail lights? I would think the AWD of the Murcielago would have some kind of advantage, isn't that why the A4 was banned from touring car racing?

Good point Z06 has no advantage in any other weather touring track against the Murc. Definately an AWD drivetrain advantage.

Yeah, that's because it's a z06...the suspension is raced tuned. The suspension on the Murcielago is not entirely optimized. Race tune the suspension on the Murcielago...and it will run circles around the Z06. The tyres are also different, so this is a futile comparison.

"race tuned"? explain this "race tuned" Z06 suspension? it has a 10% stiffer front swaybar, a 1/4" drop and different shock valving over the C5, thats IT for the suspension, there is no race tune and it rides BETTER then the C5 because it has much lighter, more pliable tires (eagle F1 SC's over runflats)

The tires are the difference, any car will handle much worse on runflats, if the only change they made to the C5 was the Z06 rubber and rims then the handling differences would be barely recognizable, the Z06 would still have a slight advantage, but either way it's far from "race tuned".

If you want race tuned look to the GM T1 cars, they're all running a conservative (for racing) GM suspension, not even aftermarket, and they're performing with T1 class SCCA cars, and winning. The C5-R is an example of a race tuned suspension, race tuned would imply that it isnt streetable because of a lack of travel or being too stiff to keep the wheels on rough roads. You can upgrade the Murcielagos suspension all you want, if you were to do the same to the corvette it would maintain its advantage. It's lighter, smaller for better turn-in, and has a 51/49 weight distribution, as well as one of the best independant suspensions around, maintaining camber with no change through 90% of its travel.

A plastic intake manifold on the lambo will not remove 500 lbs buddy, the difference is in the chassis and driveline, the Z06 runs an OHV V8 with more power potential then the DOHC V12 that the lambo uses. As for the rain :sleep: A cars handling ability in the rain doesn't matter, if you're dumb enough to race in the rain you deserve to wreck, and if you're a pro then its just one more thing you have to overcome during a race, it's hardly something that makes a car better then another since it rarely happens.

The diablo & VT are hardly F1 cars for the road, they're heavy and sluggish, they were built as touring cars and would get blown off a track by a Z06 in all but the straightaways. They are not comparable to a GT1, I dont know where you got that idea, but the GT1 is a tube framed racecar with massive amounts of downforce from an unstreetable body, you couldnt clear a pebble with the front chin spoiler on. The diablo and VT versions are nice ars for what they were designed, but the F40 and 50 were race cars for the road back int heir day, most comparable to an enzo of today, the diablo and VT were not. They do not pull over 1.2G's maximum lateral acceleration nor do they even compare to a C5-R, let alone a dedicated racecar like the GT1 porsche, which makes sense since the 2 raceacars can't be driven on the road.

If I was the one paying, give me the Z06, if I was getting it given to me of course I'd take the lambo, its still a great car with a ton of potential. To take a car of that much less value is pretty stupid IMO, even if you didnt like it, you could sell the lambo and be a fairly wealthy person. Performance wise it's a tossup, with enough money you can mod the lambo, but since most of us dont have that kind of cash we aren't going to be doing that are we?

Good to see ignorance is alive and kicking :rolleyes:
Can any of you honestly say you have any proof that the Z06 is faster than a Diablo, let alone a Murcielago?
Compairing numbers from the latest Motor Trend or whaterver is one thing, real life driving is another.

Didn't you know Deakins? Teh Z06 can't be beat by ANY on the track. :iceslolan

Good to see ignorance is alive and kicking :rolleyes:
Can any of you honestly say you have any proof that the Z06 is faster than a Diablo, let alone a Murcielago?
Compairing numbers from the latest Motor Trend or whaterver is one thing, real life driving is another.

Well, at least I wasn't worried, i didnt come across news of your passing.

And you're correct, which is exactly why I'll take the word of serious track people over a biased internet source, you know, people who've seen times from both, but of course that would hurt your argument more then help it, so of course its inadmissable.

Who cares? Do you think anyone buys a car like the Murcielago to race? They buy it cause it's hot as hell! You'd have to be screwed in the head to seriously track a car like that, I don't care how much money you have. If all you want is a track car, buy a Z06 and buy a few extras in case you wreck.

Hey FYRHWK, thanks for your point, I think that really hit the topic over most others. I do agree that one main advantage in this comparison is the weight of the two cars (not because of some sort of racing tuned parts?).

Good to see ignorance is alive and kicking :rolleyes:
Can any of you honestly say you have any proof that the Z06 is faster than a Diablo, let alone a Murcielago?
Compairing numbers from the latest Motor Trend or whaterver is one thing, real life driving is another.

Anyone should well know that a Murcielago is faster than a Z06, but can it outperform/handle a Z06? I think fyrhwk was going from that point of view/topic. And who shouldn't use a highly acclaimed car mag (not saying any of this came from one) as a liable source of information. Most people won't have the oppurtunity to have a real life experience of driving these cars (I would read them if I don't have the chance).

I know a lot about how the peformance of a Z06 is cause its talked about in lots of forums, but I can't say I ever hear anything about what a Murcielago can do. Usually cars that are talked highly and largly upon, have certain reason for being so. Plz, does anybody have anything on what a Murcielago is capable of?

Hey FYRHWK, thanks for your point, I think that really hit the topic over most others. I do agree that one main advantage in this comparison is the weight of the two cars (not because of some sort of racing tuned parts?).



Anyone should well know that a Murcielago is faster than a Z06, but can it outperform/handle a Z06? I think fyrhwk was going from that point of view/topic. And who shouldn't use a highly acclaimed car mag (not saying any of this came from one) as a liable source of information. Most people won't have the oppurtunity to have a real life experience of driving these cars (I would read them if I don't have the chance).

I know a lot about how the peformance of a Z06 is cause its talked about in lots of forums, but I can't say I ever hear anything about what a Murcielago can do. Usually cars that are talked highly and largly upon, have certain reason for being so. Plz, does anybody have anything on what a Murcielago is capable of?

I'm glad someone actually read what I said, but dont mind deakins, he'll find any reason to try and insult me.

as for the murc, it makes 580 hp and 480 ft lb at 7500 and 5400 respectivly, weighs 3638 lbs, giving it 6.27 lb/hp, and 7.58 lb/ft-lb. weight distribution is 42/58 % F/R. it reaches 121 MPH by the end of 1/4 mile (dont jump to any conclusions yet) which proves its got quite a bit of power, thats around 3 MPH more then the 02+ Z06. ETs mean little since thats just a matter of launch & traction, but the trap speed does show how high it can get going within the first 3 or 4 gears (3 knowing how wide lambo likes to go)

More importantly it pulls a .90G ont he pad, a full tenth less then the Z06, skidpad isnt everything but it does play a part in the cars ability.

The Z06 weighs 3115 lbs, has 405 HP and 400 ft lb and a 51/49 weight distribution. Thats 7.7 lb/hp and 7.78 lb/ft-lb, which isnt really indicitive of the performance of a car with gearing and all that, but whichever. The Z06 also pulls a full 1G on the pad, WITHOUT the aid of Pirelli Rosso's, which the Lamborghini is equipped with. They're an R compound tire which is the same compound tire used in racing of all kinds, they grip much better then the eagle F1 SC's on the Z06, so in essence it should have more grip all around and doesnt, and if both were on equal terms tire wise the difference would be even larger.

If you guys what a proper comparison between them read the Motor Trend comparison done by Justin Bell...you actually notice that they have very close handling performance....


and the best thing...its not a spec war....its a proper side by side done by one of the best.

If you guys what a proper comparison between them read the Motor Trend comparison done by Justin Bell...you actually notice that they have very close handling performance....


and the best thing...its not a spec war....its a proper side by side done by one of the best.

You're right, my last post is a bit stupid, I wasnt trying to pass them off as law, just throwing them out for comparisons sake.

You're right, my last post is a bit stupid, I wasnt trying to pass them off as law, just throwing them out for comparisons sake.


well specs are a good way to judge a car but unfotunattelly there are so many variables that "same time same place" head to head fights can show the performace differences between car beter than anything else


and if we want to be nit picky no comparison will ever be good enough since each car will be better on certan surfaces at certain altitudes at certain temperatures etc.....but the specs taken at separate times and separate locations are even worse...

heck i've seen the RSX run from ~7 from 0-60 in normal weather to 8.6 in 120 degrees....this is why i trust only side by side specs

"race tuned"? explain this "race tuned" Z06 suspension? it has a 10% stiffer front swaybar, a 1/4" drop and different shock valving over the C5, thats IT for the suspension, there is no race tune and it rides BETTER then the C5 because it has much lighter, more pliable tires (eagle F1 SC's over runflats)

The tires are the difference, any car will handle much worse on runflats, if the only change they made to the C5 was the Z06 rubber and rims then the handling differences would be barely recognizable, the Z06 would still have a slight advantage, but either way it's far from "race tuned".

If you want race tuned look to the GM T1 cars, they're all running a conservative (for racing) GM suspension, not even aftermarket, and they're performing with T1 class SCCA cars, and winning. The C5-R is an example of a race tuned suspension, race tuned would imply that it isnt streetable because of a lack of travel or being too stiff to keep the wheels on rough roads. You can upgrade the Murcielagos suspension all you want, if you were to do the same to the corvette it would maintain its advantage. It's lighter, smaller for better turn-in, and has a 51/49 weight distribution, as well as one of the best independant suspensions around, maintaining camber with no change through 90% of its travel.

A plastic intake manifold on the lambo will not remove 500 lbs buddy, the difference is in the chassis and driveline, the Z06 runs an OHV V8 with more power potential then the DOHC V12 that the lambo uses. As for the rain :sleep: A cars handling ability in the rain doesn't matter, if you're dumb enough to race in the rain you deserve to wreck, and if you're a pro then its just one more thing you have to overcome during a race, it's hardly something that makes a car better then another since it rarely happens.

The diablo & VT are hardly F1 cars for the road, they're heavy and sluggish, they were built as touring cars and would get blown off a track by a Z06 in all but the straightaways. They are not comparable to a GT1, I dont know where you got that idea, but the GT1 is a tube framed racecar with massive amounts of downforce from an unstreetable body, you couldnt clear a pebble with the front chin spoiler on. The diablo and VT versions are nice ars for what they were designed, but the F40 and 50 were race cars for the road back int heir day, most comparable to an enzo of today, the diablo and VT were not. They do not pull over 1.2G's maximum lateral acceleration nor do they even compare to a C5-R, let alone a dedicated racecar like the GT1 porsche, which makes sense since the 2 raceacars can't be driven on the road.

If I was the one paying, give me the Z06, if I was getting it given to me of course I'd take the lambo, its still a great car with a ton of potential. To take a car of that much less value is pretty stupid IMO, even if you didnt like it, you could sell the lambo and be a fairly wealthy person. Performance wise it's a tossup, with enough money you can mod the lambo, but since most of us dont have that kind of cash we aren't going to be doing that are we?


simple a few years back, bestmotoring did a "RACETRACK" test for all the highpriced european super cars, that included the porsche GT3, ferrari F40, ferrari F50, the ferrari F355 was another porsche a lambourgini VT,the a Skyline GT-R. and guess what? the lambourgini was #3, it wasn't too far behind the F40, and the F50, which was number one. so you mean to tell me that a Z06 can keep up with a F40? no waaaay. and all of those cars are once again driven by japanese pros. and since only one of htem is a japanese car, and that was blown out of hte water on the first turn. by the first corner the GT-R already got past by the F40 and F50 even though it had a head start. so that makes the race very unbiased. since a GT-R and a Z06 post up similar times, and the GT-R got its ass blown away by every car, and it was fightin for second last against the F355. doesn't that mean a diablo VT which ranked 3rd place would destroy a Z06 as well?

simple a few years back, bestmotoring did a "RACETRACK" test for all the highpriced european super cars, that included the porsche GT3, ferrari F40, ferrari F50, the ferrari F355 was another porsche a lambourgini VT,the a Skyline GT-R. and guess what? the lambourgini was #3, it wasn't too far behind the F40, and the F50, which was number one. so you mean to tell me that a Z06 can keep up with a F40? no waaaay. and all of those cars are once again driven by japanese pros. and since only one of htem is a japanese car, and that was blown out of hte water on the first turn. by the first corner the GT-R already got past by the F40 and F50 even though it had a head start. so that makes the race very unbiased. since a GT-R and a Z06 post up similar times, and the GT-R got its ass blown away by every car, and it was fightin for second last against the F355. doesn't that mean a diablo VT which ranked 3rd place would destroy a Z06 as well?

Since when to skylines even hold a candle to a Z06 on a track? theyre many seconds off, which is quite a bit in this kind of racing.

I think that if you gave the Z06 enough power to match those cars in acceleration that it would fare very well. Win? maybe not, but it wouldn't be a slaughter either, but considering the PRICE of the car and the availability, it wouldnt do well if it had to make the compromises they did in order to perform. If all you take it the stock performance then you're ignoring a very big aspect of the car. But even stock, I believe that it would fare well if it werent for the power difference.

A z06 would be fighting with a VT, i never said they couldnt perform, but theyre not so above the Z06 either. If the Z06 was driven by someone who has raced the car before (and done well) then it could do well against all of those cars until acceleration came into play.

Since when to skylines even hold a candle to a Z06 on a track? theyre many seconds off, which is quite a bit in this kind of racing.

I think that if you gave the Z06 enough power to match those cars in acceleration that it would fare very well. Win? maybe not, but it wouldn't be a slaughter either, but considering the PRICE of the car and the availability, it wouldnt do well if it had to make the compromises they did in order to perform. If all you take it the stock performance then you're ignoring a very big aspect of the car. But even stock, I believe that it would fare well if it werent for the power difference.

A z06 would be fighting with a VT, i never said they couldnt perform, but theyre not so above the Z06 either. If the Z06 was driven by someone who has raced the car before (and done well) then it could do well against all of those cars until acceleration came into play.
The proof you have of the Skyline being slower around a track than the ZO6 is????? I cannot recall from recent memory any ZO6 vs. Skyline races around any track- Any ZO6 vs Skyline videos would be much appreciated :)

And you're correct, which is exactly why I'll take the word of serious track people over a biased internet source, you know, people who've seen times from both, but of course that would hurt your argument more then help it, so of course its inadmissable.

And what exactly are these "serious track people" telling you?

Anyone should well know that a Murcielago is faster than a Z06, but can it outperform/handle a Z06?

Do you really understand what you are saying here?


as for the murc, it makes 580 hp and 480 ft lb at 7500 and 5400 respectivly, weighs 3638 lbs, giving it 6.27 lb/hp, and 7.58 lb/ft-lb. weight distribution is 42/58 % F/R. it reaches 121 MPH by the end of 1/4 mile (dont jump to any conclusions yet) which proves its got quite a bit of power, thats around 3 MPH more then the 02+ Z06. ETs mean little since thats just a matter of launch & traction, but the trap speed does show how high it can get going within the first 3 or 4 gears (3 knowing how wide lambo likes to go)
More importantly it pulls a .90G ont he pad, a full tenth less then the Z06, skidpad isnt everything but it does play a part in the cars ability.
The Z06 weighs 3115 lbs, has 405 HP and 400 ft lb and a 51/49 weight distribution. Thats 7.7 lb/hp and 7.78 lb/ft-lb, which isnt really indicitive of the performance of a car with gearing and all that, but whichever. The Z06 also pulls a full 1G on the pad, WITHOUT the aid of Pirelli Rosso's, which the Lamborghini is equipped with. They're an R compound tire which is the same compound tire used in racing of all kinds, they grip much better then the eagle F1 SC's on the Z06, so in essence it should have more grip all around and doesnt, and if both were on equal terms tire wise the difference would be even larger.

Woho, numbers :rolleyes:
How about a <car name left out> putting down 409hp, acceleration from 0-30 in 1 second flat, 60 in 3.2, and finishing the 1/4 mile run in 11.4 at 121 mph, and still running the famous slalom at 70.9 mph. I might also add that this car does 100-0 in 302ft and 60-0 in 107ft and have a topspeed of 212mph. All this on Dunlop SP Sports with a pricetag of only $50k, fully warranted. And the really good part, the all important latteral acceleration was in excess of 0.8g...
On paper, this car is faster than a Murcielago, in reallity, it's not.

Since when to skylines even hold a candle to a Z06 on a track? theyre many seconds off, which is quite a bit in this kind of racing.



since when is a R34 GT-R v-spec II come not close to a Z06? a R34 murdered a C5 with a ZR-1 suspension package, by almost 10 seconds in a 3 lap race in the tsuyba circuit. and the skyline was #2 in that race, it was just .2 seconds behind the porsche 911 turbo. the GT-R was much faster at the corner entry and exit. the GT-R can late brake into each corner and would literally kiss the 911 turbo's rear bumper casue the GT-R cornered that much faster. since hte porsche was taking the same line as the GT-R the GT-R could not take advantage of its cornering advantage, and had no choice but to not keep the throttle buried on the floor. therefore it could not over take the porsche. after each corner, there would be a short straight, the porsche would pull away a good amount, but once they hit another corner, the skyline would be right behind him again. plus the Z06 and the skylines post up very simliar nurburing times. they both post sub 8 second laps. so how does that make the Z06 blow the GT-R away? the only advantage it will have is because of hte hp. but even so, a bone stock R34 GT-R dynos at 329 at the wheels. which means that they are just as underated as the LS-1s in the camaro SS.

Woho, numbers :rolleyes:
How about a <car name left out> putting down 409hp, acceleration from 0-30 in 1 second flat, 60 in 3.2, and finishing the 1/4 mile run in 11.4 at 121 mph, and still running the famous slalom at 70.9 mph. I might also add that this car does 100-0 in 302ft and 60-0 in 107ft and have a topspeed of 212mph. All this on Dunlop SP Sports with a pricetag of only $50k, fully warranted. And the really good part, the all important latteral acceleration was in excess of 0.8g...
On paper, this car is faster than a Murcielago, in reallity, it's not.

Your right.....where do people get these crazy idea's to use number's as a reliable source of fact? Maybe its cause they actually did what their claiming, woaho, who would believe that garbage.........I do.
As long as you make sure its reliable, theres no reason not to. Kinda like in basketball, stats represent an image of what this person did, so say if you were at a Free Throw shootout, would you check the contenders FT%? Damn right I would, I want the best odd's possible. Same goes for cars. Although stats don't mean the best person will win, it just shows what they've achieved.

Don't be ridiculing people for what their posting, it being numbers or a real life video comparo, cause all the posting I've seen from you on this thread aren't worth reading.
Why don't you make a credible post worth reading, then maybe i'll listen to your point of view more seriously. Whether you use numbers or not is stictly up to you (although it may proove your point better than word of mouth).
Everybody else has had a good argument on their view, especially fyrhwk (he seems to be backing his argument firmly).

And also, last thing I knew speed is different than handling.


since when is a R34 GT-R v-spec II come not close to a Z06? a R34 murdered a C5 with a ZR-1 suspension package, by almost 10 seconds in a 3 lap race in the tsuyba circuit. and the skyline was #2 in that race, it was just .2 seconds behind the porsche 911 turbo. the GT-R was much faster at the corner entry and exit. the GT-R can late brake into each corner and would literally kiss the 911 turbo's rear bumper casue the GT-R cornered that much faster. since hte porsche was taking the same line as the GT-R the GT-R could not take advantage of its cornering advantage, and had no choice but to not keep the throttle buried on the floor. therefore it could not over take the porsche. after each corner, there would be a short straight, the porsche would pull away a good amount, but once they hit another corner, the skyline would be right behind him again. plus the Z06 and the skylines post up very simliar nurburing times. they both post sub 8 second laps. so how does that make the Z06 blow the GT-R away? the only advantage it will have is because of hte hp. but even so, a bone stock R34 GT-R dynos at 329 at the wheels. which means that they are just as underated as the LS-1s in the camaro SS.

Damn do the R-34s really rape the C5's that bad? What kind of track are they on? Though a C5 is no where comparable on the track to a Z06. I still don't know about an R34 beating a Z06 on a track, i'll have to check into that.

Your right.....where do people get these crazy idea's to use number's as a reliable source of fact? Maybe its cause they actually did what their claiming, woaho, who would believe that garbage.........I do.
As long as you make sure its reliable, theres no reason not to. Kinda like in basketball, stats represent an image of what this person did, so say if you were at a Free Throw shootout, would you check the contenders FT%? Damn right I would, I want the best odd's possible. Same goes for cars. Although stats don't mean the best person will win, it just shows what they've achieved.
Just because person is 8 feet tall, can jump 6 feet high, run 100 meters in 8 seconds and throw a big ball 100 meters doesn't necessarily make him a great basketball player.

Don't be ridiculing people for what their posting, it being numbers or a real life video comparo, cause all the posting I've seen from you on this thread aren't worth reading.
And yet you keep replying to them...

Why don't you make a credible post worth reading, then maybe i'll listen to your point of view more seriously. Whether you use numbers or not is stictly up to you (although it may proove your point better than word of mouth).
I asked if anyone, including you, had proof, visual or otherwise, that the z06 is faster than the Murcielago. I know for a fact it's not, but since no one have asked me to prove anything, I would rather have a little fun at your expence.
And also, last thing I knew speed is different than handling.
The most commonly used definition of a 'handling' would be something along the lines of 'the ability negotiate turns at relative speeds, while maintaining steering response'. How you choose to interpet this is up to you, but I can't see how a slower car could ever outperform and outhandle a faster car.

Damn do the R-34s really rape the C5's that bad? What kind of track are they on? Though a C5 is no where comparable on the track to a Z06. I still don't know about an R34 beating a Z06 on a track, i'll have to check into that.

heres a link to the race track. its a well known japanese race track with 2 long straights, and a few different elevation changes. and that was not a ordinary C5. that was a C5 with the upgrades ZR-1 suspension package. during hte race, the anouncer said "the cars not slow but are the top 3 JDMs ( NSX type S zero, EVO VII GSR, and the R34 GT-R V-spec II) and euro cars too fast for it?"

http://www.bestmotoringvideo.com/tracks_01.html

its either this one or in sugo circuit since they both look very similar.

and also, the zr-1 c5 corners just as good as the z06, i actually read somewhere that the zr-1 suspension was slightly stiffer.

since when is a R34 GT-R v-spec II come not close to a Z06? a R34 murdered a C5 with a ZR-1 suspension package, by almost 10 seconds in a 3 lap race in the tsuyba circuit. and the skyline was #2 in that race, it was just .2 seconds behind the porsche 911 turbo. the GT-R was much faster at the corner entry and exit. the GT-R can late brake into each corner and would literally kiss the 911 turbo's rear bumper casue the GT-R cornered that much faster. since hte porsche was taking the same line as the GT-R the GT-R could not take advantage of its cornering advantage, and had no choice but to not keep the throttle buried on the floor. therefore it could not over take the porsche. after each corner, there would be a short straight, the porsche would pull away a good amount, but once they hit another corner, the skyline would be right behind him again. plus the Z06 and the skylines post up very simliar nurburing times. they both post sub 8 second laps. so how does that make the Z06 blow the GT-R away? the only advantage it will have is because of hte hp. but even so, a bone stock R34 GT-R dynos at 329 at the wheels. which means that they are just as underated as the LS-1s in the camaro SS.

Well, first of all, there is not ZR-1 package for the C5. The ZR-1 was a lotus designed heap of a motor for the C4 corvettes, it wasnt just a suspension package. Seconly, The ZR-1 was not a handler stock, a 5 will put many seconds on one at a track like nurburgring, the Z06 would be an even greater difference.

If we're talking about a C5 with the handling package (which nearly all ordered have, i forget the code now) then they've posted ring times in the 8:10 and lower, and like I said, they're done hugely better with a set of regular rubber attatched.

Where's a skyline done a sub 8 lap? I looked for its laptimes on the net before that post and saw nothing but similar times to a C5, 8:12 was the best to my reccolection. By all means, if you can point me int he right direction I'll take it back, if its out there i simply couldn't find it.

Just because it beat the C5 in one test it's a better car? What about the driver of the C5? You can see the C5s performance in the Z06, what it would do with a real set of tires and marginal changes (like Ive said before, mostly the tires) Its not an easy car to drive well, ever thought that the driver had little time beind the wheel? The best driver would still need alot of time to learn it, of course that possible with the other cars as well.

By the way, was the tsuyba race in the JGTC? just out of curiosity.

and also, the zr-1 c5 corners just as good as the z06, i actually read somewhere that the zr-1 suspension was slightly stiffer.

Well, you read wrong, and to be honest I dont think you readthat anywhere, because the ZR-1 only existed from 1990 to 95, 2 years before the C5 came out. nd they didn't handle anywhere near as well as the C5, let alone Z06. The C5 package is not as stiff nor does it handle anywhere near as well as the Z06, thats all there is to it. The suspension on the C5 package uses the exact same springs, the Z06 is only a 1/4" drop, a 10% stiffer front swaybar, and different shock valving, and it does handle much better.

I asked if anyone, including you, had proof, visual or otherwise, that the z06 is faster than the Murcielago. I know for a fact it's not, but since no one have asked me to prove anything, I would rather have a little fun at your expence.

Prove it sparky, it should be interesting disproving your "facts".

Prove it sparky, it should be interesting disproving your "facts".


If I remember correctly, according to GM, the Z06 CE will lap Nürburgring in 7.58, right?
If you can get a hold of last years July edition of the German car magazine 'Sport Auto', they tested the Murcielago both on Nürburgring and Hochenheim. The time around Nürburgring, the north loop, was 7.50 and 1.12 around Hochenheim.
'theyre many seconds off, which is quite a bit in this kind of racing' - FYRHWK1, '03.

The most commonly used definition of a 'handling' would be something along the lines of 'the ability negotiate turns at relative speeds, while maintaining steering response'. How you choose to interpet this is up to you, but I can't see how a slower car could ever outperform and outhandle a faster car.

You know I don't know why I keep replying, but you also reply do to your own expense.

Also using your logic here a faster car handles better? Wouldn't that mean that a Top Line drag car would be able to outhandle just about anything, well capable to beat both cars very maginally on a track and strip....if you say so... Cars are designed for different purposes. I can see how you would want to matain relative steering response corresponding with relative speeds. You don't want to make a sharp responce when your going to 200mph or somthing bad could happen. You also need relative responses at 20mph.
Grip is also important when dealing with handling, if you can't keep your tires down, then your not going to be negotiating any turns. You probably already know that the Z06 grips better than a Murc, so i'll just stop now.

Okay down to the two, who will win? Put them both on the track, and who's victorious. I'm going to have to say the Murc will beat the Z06 on a track. I may like the Z06, but I'm not admitting it will beat a Murc. (I never did) I just wanted to see what everybody else thought about the two. The Murc is a faster car allowing it to pull more freely on the Z06 on the straights. The only chance a Z06 has is to catch up when they get off the straights, though it may catch up a little, when the next straight comes up, your starting the entire process all over again.

And by the way, an Elise is a much slower car than both of these cars, but I'm sure it won't have a problem outhandling these significantly faster cars. What do you think?

well its definitly a C5 vette. but i also forgot the suspension packages name. but it does come with the magnesium wheels which looks very different then ordinary vettes. its not the fat 5 spoke ones, and its not the thin 5 spoke either. also the C5 was also driven by a pro. and the fastest time that i've seen in the website a while back was that the GT-R did the ring in 7:59 seconds. it held the record for the fastest mass produced car in the world for quit some time. so yes the Z06 was faster by 1 second, but in a 11 mile track, its really not that much off.

ok i looked back on the info, and its the z51. the z51 got like .92g with stock tires, .96g with zo6 tires, and the z06 got .98g. these were 04 vettes.

well its definitly a C5 vette. but i also forgot the suspension packages name. but it does come with the magnesium wheels which looks very different then ordinary vettes. its not the fat 5 spoke ones, and its not the thin 5 spoke either. also the C5 was also driven by a pro. and the fastest time that i've seen in the website a while back was that the GT-R did the ring in 7:59 seconds. it held the record for the fastest mass produced car in the world for quit some time. so yes the Z06 was faster by 1 second, but in a 11 mile track, its really not that much off.

i know we re talking about stock here, but think about how much more power the z06 actually has over the gtr, almost a 100, so if the gtr adds on that much more power, im sure it would take the z06 out on any track. and im not being biased, cause im not a fan that kinda bs.

If I remember correctly, according to GM, the Z06 CE will lap Nürburgring in 7.58, right?
If you can get a hold of last years July edition of the German car magazine 'Sport Auto', they tested the Murcielago both on Nürburgring and Hochenheim. The time around Nürburgring, the north loop, was 7.50 and 1.12 around Hochenheim.
'theyre many seconds off, which is quite a bit in this kind of racing' - FYRHWK1, '03.

And we're sure that the Z06 took the same loop? if so, then i'll gladly admit that it's faster, I can't however, get acess ot that magazine, so we'll see if I can dig it up on the net.

well its definitly a C5 vette. but i also forgot the suspension packages name. but it does come with the magnesium wheels which looks very different then ordinary vettes. its not the fat 5 spoke ones, and its not the thin 5 spoke either. also the C5 was also driven by a pro. and the fastest time that i've seen in the website a while back was that the GT-R did the ring in 7:59 seconds. it held the record for the fastest mass produced car in the world for quit some time. so yes the Z06 was faster by 1 second, but in a 11 mile track, its really not that much off.

Well, I couldn't find that on the net so thats what I was basing my post on, the pastest I can still get a link to was an 8:21 lap which I dont believe to be the best it can do (which is why I havent directly replied to you Jimster, I'll get the ~8:12 link if I can find it again)

Could I get a link to the 7:59? not really doubting you at all, just like to keep it on hand in case this comes up again.

The Murcielago ran a 7:52 according to sport auto vs. a Zonda S 7:44, and a GT2 7:46 on Nurburgring.
The 1:12 time was correct for Hockenheimring, it actually outed the GT2 on this track 1:12,6, but still feel slightly short to the Zonda 1:11,8.

This reflects that certain cars on stronger on certain tracks. I even found postings of this in the AF forums to. Seems that this has been discussed before. Its in the Pagani-Zonda section.

You know I don't know why I keep replying, but you also reply do to your own expense.

Also using your logic here a faster car handles better? Wouldn't that mean that a Top Line drag car would be able to outhandle just about anything, well capable to beat both cars very maginally on a track and strip....if you say so... Cars are designed for different purposes. I can see how you would want to matain relative steering response corresponding with relative speeds. You don't want to make a sharp responce when your going to 200mph or somthing bad could happen. You also need relative responses at 20mph.

Saywhat? Are you 12 years old, dyslexic or just stupid?


Grip is also important when dealing with handling, if you can't keep your tires down, then your not going to be negotiating any turns. You probably already know that the Z06 grips better than a Murc, so i'll just stop now.

I do?


And by the way, an Elise is a much slower car than both of these cars, but I'm sure it won't have a problem outhandling these significantly faster cars. What do you think?

You can't measure handling, it's very subjective.
I think the Elise, well, the Speedster, is a great handeling car, do I feel it handles better than a Murcielago? I don't know, I've never driven one.


And we're sure that the Z06 took the same loop? if so, then i'll gladly admit that it's faster, I can't however, get acess ot that magazine, so we'll see if I can dig it up on the net.

I'll see if I can find it when I get home.


The Murcielago ran a 7:52 according to sport auto.

I was under the impression it was 7.50, but I might be wrong.

I'm not sure what your not "say what" ing about. It was kinda hard to interpret maybe. Let me try somthing more absorbent.
Handling relfects the relative ability of a vehicle to negotiate curves and respond to road conditions. Many factors contribute to a cars ability to handle. Factors such as vehicle weight, suspension, tires, air flow, etc., contribute to a cars ability to handle. A Top Line drag car was never meant to negotiate curves, although they can maintain their downforce as very high speeds, still cannot negotiate curves. They were never designed to negotiate curves, or respond to road conditions that a sports car can. Handling changes at different speeds, and also different conditions. AWD cars handle better on wet surfaces because they can negotiate curves better than a rw/fw drive car during these particular conditions, they have better traction on the surface. Speed is only another factor in whether a car handles better than another. Measuring handling is very subjective, but their are measurments for handling reguarding a cars ability in cornering, roadholding, and manuvering, but they are very subjective giving the many different conditions of driving. So in using that, depending on the conditions, a Murcielago/Z06 will have their advantages in exceeding each other in different conditions. Maybe if I specified a particular road condition, we could make a better comparision on which would handle better. I'm sorry bout that, I just wasn't thinking that far ahead hehe. I didn't mean to create such confusion.

I don't want to create more problems than their already are. I just don't like being called silly names simply because somone interpreted a reply to their own satisfaction. I don't care how steamed a topic will get, theirs no room for immaturity, lets discuss topics like adults.

Hey!...the Cobra R got 1.0 g on the skidpad, same as a Z06. It didn't outhandle it but it is a good match for the Z06. My point is that any $20,000 POS can be made to handle 1.0 g.
And here's a link so I can "back myself"
http://www.mustangworld.com/ourpics/News/mwcobraR/

Hey!...the Cobra R got 1.0 g on the skidpad, same as a Z06. It didn't outhandle it but it is a good match for the Z06. My point is that any $20,000 POS can be made to handle 1.0 g.
And here's a link so I can "back myself"
http://www.mustangworld.com/ourpics/News/mwcobraR/

Yeah the Cobra R has as good skidpad rating as the Z06, and are damn close to the same price 50k for the Z06 and 55k for the Cobra. They are a very rare car being only 300 produced in 2000, which adds that rarity elegance to the car.

how much faster is the zo6 than a z51 on the track? well anyways if you want to watch the vid of how the z51 did vs the porsche, 360, skyline, evo and the nsx, here's the site, its racigflix.com, im sure some of you know about it.

http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=425&p=3

you can scroll down, and read the comments about the video. i saw the video... and the porsche got first, skyline got second, third was evo, fourth was nsx, fifth was 360 modena, and last was the c5 z51, the z51 was something like 13 sec behind the first place porsche. now i was suprised, i was expecting the 360 to be up there with the porsche at least, and the z51 to be at least with the nsx, if not faster. maybe cause its a left hand drive, and they re not as good, or as used to it. but then only the top drivers with the best backgrounds in racing are driving those things, so watch the video, and see what you think, or if it takes too long, you can read the comments below.

how much faster is the zo6 than a z51 on the track? well anyways if you want to watch the vid of how the z51 did vs the porsche, 360, skyline, evo and the nsx, here's the site, its racigflix.com, im sure some of you know about it.

http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=425&p=3

you can scroll down, and read the comments about the video. i saw the video... and the porsche got first, skyline got second, third was evo, fourth was nsx, fifth was 360 modena, and last was the c5 z51, the z51 was something like 13 sec behind the first place porsche. now i was suprised, i was expecting the 360 to be up there with the porsche at least, and the z51 to be at least with the nsx, if not faster. maybe cause its a left hand drive, and they re not as good, or as used to it. but then only the top drivers with the best backgrounds in racing are driving those things, so watch the video, and see what you think, or if it takes too long, you can read the comments below.

Damn this is going to take a while to download the video. The zr1 package is a good upgrade from the base model C5, but it still runs on the same tires the standard C5 are on, which doesn't compare to the tires on the Z06. The MSRC vette almost nearly performs as well as the zr1 handling package. The big difference between the zr1 and the zo6 are the tires. Car and Driver did a test on the different vette options and the Z06 was well ahead. I think it bettered the zr1 close to around 4 seconds per lap, so depending on how long/many laps were on this race, that might help figure out how much better the z06 would fair.

i forgot one thing, i know theres a 280hp deal in japan, so does that mean they have to tune the vette down to comply?

no it just means that all the japanese cars are underrated. the GT-R is proven to put down over 300 hp at the wheels. and the EVO is proven to make over 300 crank hp as well. they have been breaking that gentlemen agreement for years.

i looked up the info in car drive. zo6 beats the z51 by 1.7 on the autocross, 2 sec on the racecourse. now the z51 with zo6 wheels, z06 beats it by .6 sec on the autocross, 1 sec on the racecourse. they did this on a racetrack with the most turns possible, with the least straights to prevent the zo6 from having that 55 hp advantage as much as possible, so im sure the gap would be a little higher on a different track with more straights.

yeah i wasn't exactly sure what the time was, it was a while since i read it, damn i said 4secs, that ridiculous. Yeah those tires make all the difference.

Deakins replied according to gm that the Z06 will lap 7:58 on Nurburgring. I did hear of a Skyline doing a 7:59, but i also heard is wasn't stock. I'm sure each car has their strengths and weaknesses given different tracks.

yeah i wasn't exactly sure what the time was, it was a while since i read it, damn i said 4secs, that ridiculous. Yeah those tires make all the difference.

Deakins replied according to gm that the Z06 will lap 7:58 on Nurburgring. I did hear of a Skyline doing a 7:59, but i also heard is wasn't stock. I'm sure each car has their strengths and weaknesses given different tracks.

Scratch that 7:58, i'm hearing replies of 7:56,that coming from Harlen Charles "Corvette Product Mag."

their talking about it here

Z06 track time (http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=35916&perpage=15&highlight=nurburgring&pagenumber=2)

That matching the same time as a 996! Thats quick, and beating the ferrari 360 (8:09), but still behind the Murc (7:52), thats fast.

I'm not sure what your not "say what" ing about. It was kinda hard to interpret maybe. Let me try somthing more absorbent.
Handling relfects the relative ability of a vehicle to negotiate curves and respond to road conditions. Many factors contribute to a cars ability to handle. Factors such as vehicle weight, suspension, tires, air flow, etc., contribute to a cars ability to handle.

And when did I disagree to this?


A Top Line drag car was never meant to negotiate curves, although they can maintain their downforce as very high speeds, still cannot negotiate curves. They were never designed to negotiate curves, or respond to road conditions that a sports car can.

And per 'my' definition, 'the ability negotiate turns at relative speeds, while maintaining steering response', a Top Fuel drag car does NOT handle well.


Handling changes at different speeds, and also different conditions.

No.


Speed is only another factor in whether a car handles better than another.

Yes?


Measuring handling is very subjective, but their are measurments for handling reguarding a cars ability in cornering, roadholding, and manuvering, but they are very subjective giving the many different conditions of driving.

Once again, you can't measure handling.


I'm sorry bout that, I just wasn't thinking that far ahead hehe. I didn't mean to create such confusion.
I don't want to create more problems than their already are. I just don't like being called silly names simply because somone interpreted a reply to their own satisfaction. I don't care how steamed a topic will get, theirs no room for immaturity, lets discuss topics like adults.

If you want to avoid confusion and discuss topics like adults you should start writing like one. Seriously, most of your arguments are lost to bad spelling and incoherent sentences.
If you indeed are dyslexic, I apologize.

Seriously, most of your arguments are lost to bad spelling and incoherent sentences.
If you indeed are dyslexic, I apologize.

Thats very subjective to say since you've clearly quoted my replies while responding to just about every one of them.

i read that article on the z06 at nurburgring. the vette that got the time of under 8 min at that track was the 04 commemorative addition z06 corvette, which has a lighter hood, and some other stuff to it. it says that all 04 vettes got different suspension parts, not much, but they said it made a big difference on the track compared to the previous vettes. so im thinking the older z06's wouldnt be able to make that time, only the 04 z06 special edition one, since they tested that one, and probably the non special edition one also.

i heard that the latest nsx-r was faster than the skyline gtr on the nurburgring, i wonder how old this is? anyone have the article on this? website, or magazine?