Replicas

did that make sence to anyone? know what i'm trying to say?

Yes, of course, you are right.

The only way to reach a conclusion on the debate over whether the replica is "superior" to the original would be through a form of independant arbitration.

In other words, an impartial 3rd party would have to be provided with examples of both the original and the replica, (by the way, we could be talking about cars or chocolate bars, the subject matter is irrelevant), and through a series of tests, carried out on both representative samples, would come up with a collection of data to enable a conclusion to be reached...

Sounds like a cross between "O"-level chemistry and a race!

Of course, this would not be the end of the arguement, merely the beginning of another...

However, this is a discussion forum, and opinions will always be swayed by emotion, therefore it is impossible to resolve the debate, in it's current form, (although, as can be seen, it's fun trying).

The only way to reach a conclusion on the debate over whether the replica is "superior" to the original would be through a form of independant arbitration.

...

In other words, an impartial 3rd party would have to be provided with examples of both the original and the replica, (by the way, we could be talking about cars or chocolate bars, the subject matter is irrelevant), and through a series of tests, carried out on both representative samples, would come up with a collection of data to enable a conclusion to be reached...Has any tests ever been performed? I'm interested in performance tests, specifically track speed, more than reliability tests. (Test reliability only if performance is proven close to equal.)

To put another way;

You have two cars: A 99 VT Diablo roadster, and a 99 VT Diablo roadster REPLICA

You drive both, then you judge which one YOU think is better, here is our situation:
You are missing one or both of those cars, it doesn't matter which one.

Your personal preferance might be the real diablo, and someone else would prefer the replica, because with a replica:
1) not as expensive
2) still has a lot of power, just not as much, some people are quite happy with that
3) peace of mind knowing that they own the lamborghini name, copy or not.

I'd rather the real diablo, than a replica even if i could afford a replica, i wouldn't get one because my personal preferance is a real diablo

statistics will proof which one is better performance wise, but because not many people can afford a regular diablo, they go for the replica, then claim it's better, why i don't know. Still, i can't see how anyone could think that a replica is better just because they can't afford a real one. This has yet to be explained.

*ed*
some people are talking about the effort these people put in, i really admire that passion, i really do, it's a hobby, it's something they wanted to do, and they went out and bloody well did it, not many people will do that because of lazyness, then they make up excuse why they can't do it to make it look like they can't, but in reality, it's something they want to do just don't want to do anything about it.

My hobby is guitar, i put hours and hours and hours of practice a week to learn, and write new songs, and i put my blood into my band, and it's paying off with awesome songs, i will not give it up.

But i'm not going around saying my metallica cover band are better than the real metallica! (i'm not in a cover band, i just used it as an example to understand my point that i've been trying to make since page 1, and i'm glad everyone understands,, whether you agree or not :) )

Has any tests ever been performed..?

Dunno, and without wanting to appear flippant, i wouldn't be that interested anyway.

...understand my point that i've been trying to make since page 1...

I think that the majority of people who have contributed to this discussion, including those who are against your points, understand only too well.

You drive both, then you judge which one YOU think is better...

Precisely the reason i suggested an impartial 3rd party.

...Your personal preferance might be the real diablo...

Exactly; i think the debate is based on preference, which you can never argue over because an element of preference is taken from an emotional view; i personally would not want what i percieve to be an affordable, "second-best" (in my opinion, before anyone gets pi$$ed off at me), replica, when the real thing could be attained with more hard work and patience: don't forget, as you get older, insurance and the car iself may become more affordable!

...Still, i can't see how anyone could think that a replica is better just because they can't afford a real one...some people are talking about the effort these people put in, i really admire that passion, i really do...

I admire such people too: i wish i had as much commitment. However, a passion can become obsessive, which can also result in such people becoming irrational in their personal view of their "creation".

Say you'd spent a "large sum" of money on cutting a disc, (if that's still the right terminology), for the best song, (in your opinion), you and your band had ever covered by, (example), Metallica, and the performance was outstanding, (again, in your opinion).

If you were "that kind of person" and if your passion, (bordering on obsession), were great enough, i bet there's a good chance you could, at least once, say to someone that your cover was better than the original. Having then said it once, it must be quite easy to say it again and again, ad infinitum, especially if the statement went unchallenged...

I'm not saying you would do this, i'm just trying to give an explanation as to why some passionate people can let their feelings get out of control when their "creation" becomes all-consuming, using something that relates directly to you. I guess it could be a form of denial.

Good luck with the band!

i think we can all get a long just well now :)

thanks.

What a great thread! I sold my Esprit S4 for one reason: I hated putting miles on it. I drove it every chance I got but in the back of my head I always wanted to keep it new and fresh. I sold it with the intention to get a later model (88 or newer) Testarossa. After searching for a month I realized that I was going to be in the same boat.....want to drive it but feel guilty every time I saw a rock chip. So my perfect car was an exotic, fast, reliable, and easy to work on. Thats a tall order espically in the supercar market. I love to push my cars hard without the expense and guilt of abusing them. I have always wanted to build my own car (cobra, muscle car even looked into buing an ex Porsche 962 roling chassis) I have always strayed away from the kit car industry for the exact reasons listed in the previous posts. In the last couple of years with the help of the internet, the level of quality has gone through the roof. There are at least 2 Diablo replica companies that sell bodies that were pulled off real Diablos and one company is selling a chassis made from auto CAD blueprints. The geometery is accurate down to every angle and weld. With the newer accurate bodies / chassis I no longer felt like I was going to be rolling around on a hacked up Fiero. So I bought the chassis with all the options that was offered. The motor (2000 Corvette LS1) arrives today. I am having a blast building this car. In the end it will serve my needs in a car. For some it is a grocery getter, for some a SUV. Fake? Replica? Yup. Take a look at the folowing link. www.lambobuilder.com/edb/ They are using the same body and chassis as me. I saw this car at the Knotts Kit Car show last weekend. Not a ripple or wave in the body and only the shifter boot was not acurate. We, as enthusiasts, look at Cobra replicas as OK. I wonder if owners of real Cobras bag on the replicas. I am sure that some where down the line, someone will give me crap. They might even be able to point out an innacuracy. The sense of accomplishment will far outweigh any sneers. But if they laught at my Pep Boys seat covers I'll kick their ass! Great thread.

BTW, Parralell Designs (spelling) in the Uk, is another builder that has a kit pulled off of a real Diablo.

...We, as enthusiasts, look at Cobra replicas as OK. ... I have thought about this often. I think the main reason is:

Many of the good Cobra replica builders are producing replicas of the Cobra that are better, in just about every way, than the originals. On the other hand, Diablo replicas are inferior in every possible way. The best replicas can approach what the shell looks like, and that's about it. There are not many who will believe that a replica Diablo could possibly match the original in any form of measurement you wish to take. It is totally possible to produce a replica Cobra that is superior in just about every (if not, every) possible form of measurement.

Another point is the original Cobras were not worth $100,000's, and did not have $1,000,000's of research and development put into it. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was a British car which someone took and dropped a large engine into it. (Yes, an original can run the price of a new Lambo now, but this is missing the point. This is not the same thing as what the original price of the car was. The original price of the car reflects a lot about the car itself - for instance, how much technology, and R&D is put into it, things that may not be possible to be replicated by a builder.) An original Diablo was almost $300,000. To buy a used one now will run you at least $150,000.

So, what it comes down to is this is what people in general see (regardless of how much respect you or I have to these builders for being able to create them from scratch): The Diablo replica driver is pretending to be something he is not (i.e. a rich person who owns a really amazing piece of machinery, when in fact he isn't rich, and doesn't own an amazing piece of machinery.), to a much more extreme way than the Cobra replica driver.

Personally, I can see myself buying a Cobra kit. I would never be caught dead in a Diablo kit. I think the reason why has something to do with what I have typed above, but that is as much as I have nailed it down...

What do you think?

What do I think? What do you drive Jason? Are you opinions based on owning and driving an exotic or what you read on the net? Are you a "rich" person or someone who lives with mom and dad? "Rich" is a relative term. A person with a job and an apartment is rich compared to a person on the street. I would never consider myself rich. I dont look up at people with more wealth and I dont look down to others with less. I can afford a, $80-90K diablo but chose to take half that and build a replica based on the Auto CAD drawings. The other half I put into an investment property. Average home prices have gone up 27.5% a year here in L.A. County. My $400K rental house with a 5/1 arm @ 4.25APR will be worth at least $675K in 3 years. I guess I will be pretending to be rich in my fake car. Hey, I have an idea. I'm going to the Cannes film festivle in France later this month. Bently, Ferrari ETC will have demo shows as usual. The other pilot and I are going to "pretend" to be rich and set up test drives. You should come out and "pretend" with us. Then you will have first person knowledge. Cannes starts on the 12th I think.

lear60man, I am trying to have a discussion here. I have no time to participate in a useless argument. I threw out what I believe to be a possible answer to an, as of yet, unanswered question. I am asking what everyone else thinks.

I previously stated that, regardless of the fact that many people including myself have much respect for those who can build cars from scratch, when they drive a replica of a $300,000 car, many people on the street are going to believe that they are pretending to be rich.

You're right, 'rich' is relative. But, can we assume for the moment that a person who can afford to own and drive a $300,000 car is 'rich', as the general public - the exact people I am speaking about - would believe? I think people vastly underestimate how much it costs to drive a Diablo or new exotic. Making a million dollars doesn't qualify you. Neither does having a few million tied up in real estate. I know quite a few people with big $$ around here, but they have it all tied up in investments. They are rich. But, they can't afford a real Lambo. First, then need to claim the money as personal income. So there goes half of it - the car is already twice as expensive as it first appears. Then there is luxury tax, gas guzzler tax, state / provincial taxes. After that, you want to drive it. So, there's insurance and maintenance. You really do have to be 'rich' (a relative term whose usage here would be accepted by most) to own and drive the real deal.

Basically, when someone drives by in a Diablo, replica or not, most people are going to be utterly amazed that they think they just witnessed a $300,000 car drive by. If it is a replica, that thought is totally unfounded. What the driver appears to be is not what he actually is. People will dislike this greatly. Even if you have no desire for such reactions, you will get them. The point of my post is to find out why.

Quick frankly, it appears that people get less respect from others when they are attempting to be something that they are not. I tend to agree with this. So, if they think replica drivers are pretending (whether they wish to or not) to be 'rich' enough to drive a Diablo, then they will have a lack of respect for those drivers. Whether you like it or not, I think this is a source of a seemingly general lack of respect of exotic replica owners.

I know friends, as I am sure many people do, who try to act like something they are not. Take a look at your own friends, or people you know in general, and think about who you have the most respect for. I am willing to bet the people who are always putting on an act get less respect.

What I do and what I drive does not matter... does it? If you really want to know, I don't blow my money on cars. All I see everywhere is people driving cars they can barely afford. They are liabilities that decrease in value over the years. But if that's what you want to do, because that is what you love... then go for it. I don't look down on anyone for doing what they love. I personally invest into real estate and into my own projects. It sounds like you are going to do well with your properties. Keep at it; I know I will. No, my parents aren't rich. But if they were, and I was driving a brand new exotic bought with their money, I'd be pretending to be someone who has the capability to produce an income large enough to support owning and driving my car. I would, quick frankly, look like an ass and probably get no respect at all - which is exactly what I would deserve. I know people like this, and they are not very well liked. In any case, what does this have to do with the discussion?

<Basically, when someone drives by in a Diablo, replica or not, most people are going to be utterly amazed that they think they just witnessed a $300,000 car drive by. If it is a replica, that thought is totally unfounded. What the driver appears to be is not what he actually is. People will dislike this greatly. Even if you have no desire for such reactions, you will get them. The point of my post is to find out why.>

Ok, so your basic question is to find out why people dislike a person who is pretending to be something that he/she is not. Kinda like how that guy from 'The Partridge Family' got a little surprise from the hooker that turned out to be a guy? I think you are possibly assuming that a Diablo driver must have certain qualifications such as: $$, self made, good debt to income ratio. Others are pretending to be something they are not. I am sure that alot of the kids I see driving Ferraris, Astons, Porsches Etc. in my area dont have any of the above. Some are driving Dads car or are trust funders. But then again there is alot of Tech, Hollywood and Porn money floating around. Another factor is that some come fresh off the boat with a ton of oil money from over seas. Perhaps driving an exotic car helps compensate for a weak education and no real sense of accomplishments in their adult life. For the most part, we are project an image of what we are, or want others to view us as. If this image is an illusion, the viewer feels cheated.

Let me give you two scenarios:
First is a person who is self made, good debt to income ratio, financially stable with a great career. Nice house, healty, with a good attitude towards life.........and owns a replica for a fun car.

Second person. Never went to college, lives in a condo owned by mom and dad, works part time for mom and dad because of a poor work ethic, nobody else will hire them. No sense of money management or worth and has never achieved anything on their own. Drives an exotic (paid for mom and dad) grinds the gears and couldn't change the oil if they wanted to.

In my opinion the first person has more self respect for themselves and it shows in how they have lived their life. Thus others will probably respect them more for their accomplishments. Not for what they drive.

I am basicly that first person. I am a captain on a Gulfstream GIV-SP. One of my cars is a 1994 Jetta. It is my airport car that gets left out in the sun and rain while I am on the road. I admit it looks a little funny when I get out, in full uniform, at the base of the stairs to a 40 million dollar privatly owned jet. I guess in some ways I am pretending to slumm it in the Jetta. There will always be someone else who is richer, better looking, smarter or happier. Be yourself and let others worry about their problemsn not what they think about you.

Kinda long winded but more to your original question I think. Spelling mistakes and all.

Nicely stated post.

For the most part, we are project an image of what we are, or want others to view us as. If this image is an illusion, the viewer feels cheated.
I think the sad part is that so many people are caught up in trying to change how people perceive them. Usually they attempt to appear more successful, due to insecurities (which most of us have, in one way or another) and what better way to do this than to show off wealth (even if it is non existent). I know people who are so caught up in that, that they are largely in debt, and truly unsuccessful. They have nothing to show for except loans and debts on materialistic purchases. Eventually they will reach rock bottom, will lose everything, and snap back into reality in a hurry. However, if you were to compare their current perceived successfulness to my own, according solely to what we drive, then you would be largely misled. I am in the process of sacrificing for a greater return in the long run. Here is a quote I enjoy:

"Too many of us are spending money we haven't earned to buy things we don't need to impress people we don't like." - Unknown

In my opinion the first person has more self respect for themselves and it shows in how they have lived their life. Thus others will probably respect them more for their accomplishments. Not for what they drive.

I completely agree. 100%.

I am basicly that first person. I am a captain on a Gulfstream GIV-SP. One of my cars is a 1994 Jetta. It is my airport car that gets left out in the sun and rain while I am on the road. I admit it looks a little funny when I get out, in full uniform, at the base of the stairs to a 40 million dollar privatly owned jet. I guess in some ways I am pretending to slumm it in the Jetta. There will always be someone else who is richer, better looking, smarter or happier. Be yourself and let others worry about their problemsn not what they think about you.

That was a great post. And I do agree with everything that you are saying. I guess my post was trying to get to the cause of a problem that really should not exist.

If your buying a car to impress ladies, your doing it for the wrong reasons. I can gaurentee you, that if the ladies find out your car is a replica, they will absolutely redicule you. Kind of like pulling out your 10 inch penis and having the 7 inch extension fall off.


:rofl: :cwm27: :lol2: :rofl: :lol2: :lol:

I'm not impressed at all at the cost of a Diablo when I see one drive by 9the once or twice that has happened). The Diablo is an absolutely beautiful car and I admire it simply for that.

My presonal preference would be to own a replica. I have been to Knotts AHA show several times and am very impressed with the quality of some of the cars. I was rather suprised to see so much bashing of the quality of the kits. If the end result is a beautiful car that handles/performs well, why would anyone be disappointed?

I had considered a replica on several occasions (after my dad who owned a Midstates Cobra got me into the kitcar scene). I agree that anyone who buys one of these kits to make themselves look like something they are not needs to consider other ways to spend their money (extreme makeover maybe?). My preference would be to own a car that looks nice and performs well and is fun to drive. For me, the replicas have several advantages. They can be easier/cheaper to work on (Parts for the LS1 MUST be cheaper then the Lambo V12). Plus if you are building your own kit, you can put part of yourself into it. Besides, I wouldn't be comfortable driving the real deal. I'd worry about someone damaging it, or about putting miles on it, etc.

I currently am selling my 1968 SS/RS L78 camaro that is fully restored to stock condition. I wanted a 1st gen Camaro to restore and have fun with. This car is so rare and nicely done, that it isn't any fun. It might be considered fun to a collector, but I want to drive my cars. I just think that a replica would be more comfortable to "play with" then the real deal.

Just to clarify, no, I am not a fresh out of school, pizza delivery kid who can barely make ends meet. I'm a 39 year old professional who supports his wife and kids, owns his own house (in San Diego no less), and owns several collector cars (66 El Camino, 66 GTO Convertible, 68 Camaro, 69 Camaro Convertible, 70 Chevelle Coupe, 70 Chevelle Convertible).

I say that if someone has/wants a replica, and they are happy with their decision, then more power to them. ---Eric

y'know, what impresses me about cars like the ferraris and lamborghinis are not what it looks like (although they are very pretty...) but the rather it is what lies underneath.

the lamborghini (any model) used to have and more or less still do have hand built V12 engines.
everything is fettled and polished by hand.
there is an old lady whose job it was to polish the exhausts of the last ever diablos.

that is the heart and soul of a lamborghini.

if you have a diablo replica, i would argue that it is not a replica (cos even tht is giving it too much praise) but just a poor impersonation of a lamborghini.

i don't care if your replica costs less.
i don't care if it is just as fast.
i don't care if it even looks exactly the same in appearance.
if it doesn't have the lamborghini V12 in it, it is nothing in comparison to a real lamborghini.

y'know, what impresses me about cars like the ferraris and lamborghinis are not what it looks like (although they are very pretty...) but the rather it is what lies underneath.

the lamborghini (any model) used to have and more or less still do have hand built V12 engines.
everything is fettled and polished by hand.
there is an old lady whose job it was to polish the exhausts of the last ever diablos.

that is the heart and soul of a lamborghini.

if you have a diablo replica, i would argue that it is not a replica (cos even tht is giving it too much praise) but just a poor impersonation of a lamborghini.

i don't care if your replica costs less.
i don't care if it is just as fast.
i don't care if it even looks exactly the same in appearance.
if it doesn't have the lamborghini V12 in it, it is nothing in comparison to a real lamborghini.


*sniff* Well said...Well said...

Except that 2nd last part. An impersonation is a replica. To replicate something is to impersonate something. They're both the same word, but I know what you're trying to say.

nonono, a replica, in my mind, is one that tries to fully replicate the original.
to that end, a gtd 40 or even the eagle(?)xkss i would call a replica because they more or less are a re-build of the original gt40 to the best of its abilities.

an impersonation is something that tries to look, or even sound like it but is far from being anything like the orignial.
i.e, an empty shell.
strip away the outside of most "replica's" and what do you get?
some off the shelf engine with the usual engine mods (i am being general here.....).

a simple comaprison.
gtd40.
mr-2 based '355'.
both are called 'replica' but i would say only one deserves to be called that.
the other is a joke.

that's how i differentiate the two.

I appreciate what you're saying, but i'm still confused a little.

To me, your replica and impersonation idea is the same. I'll get it eventually, and I understand what you are getting at, and I agree. But it just is a little confusing for me.

not really the same.
the gtd40 is a car that is built to practically the same spec as the original using more or less original parts.
the eagle xkss is built using original jaguar parts.
the mr-2 based ferrari 355 is nothing more than a standard mr-2 with body panels and a different exhaust.

better?
or am i still making it complicated....?

yeah it's starting to make sence!

to go to an extreme point, i can take £30,000 and buy every single part of a gt40 that is still in production, or near enough to the original as to be a moot point.
then spend too much money making an exact copy of the chassis.
then get an exact body shell made, again costing a hell of a load of cash.
end result is my gt40 replica.

or i can buy a £5000 kit to bolt onto my little second-hand japanese car.
the end result i would not call a replica.
even if i then spend a lot of money to improve performance, noise etc etc it is still not even in the same league as the gt40 replica.