Now it wont even start

How important are mass air flow voltage settings for a car to RUN period?
I'm having big issues.

After spending $10K and over a year of time now I cant get my car
running again. Right after the engine install it ran, but idled bad
and ran lean(as far as i could tell). Now ever since ive started to
try different settings on the twecer it doesnt even run anymore. Ive
tried to use the stock eec-iv again to see if it'll run and it wont.
What the hell? The only thing i've changed since is i went from 87
octane to 89 octane un-reformulated gas for my cam setup. Any
thoughts?

Sounds like you're having electrical problems.
When you put the key in the ignition, do all of the lights on the dash turn on? Or is the car completely dead? Do your accessory lights, headlights, and radio turn on? Does the engine turn over?
Sorry for presenting you with more questions than answers. But don't worry, we will solve your problem.

the engine turns over just fine and it wants to start, but the split second its ready to kick over it cuts out and backfires. all the accessories work fine(lights, etc.) although i have no radio or dome light right now cause the interior is not put back together yet. im gonna go out and check for spark at the plugs when i can get somone to help me later.

The description of almost firing then cuttin out and backfiring sure sounds like timing is F-ed up somewhere.

O.K., so far so good. We know that your electrical system is doing its job. If the engine feels like it's backfiring, then we have narrowed the problem down to either cam degree timing, ignition timing, spark plug firing sequence, or fuel pressure. Start diagnosing the easy problems first, the spark plug firing sequence. Make sure no one messed with your cables. I had a "friend" that would play jokes on people by switching spark plug cables around. He could make flames come out of the carbuerator.

the timing is fine cause i havent touched it since it was running. its set at 15 degrees btdc. i havent touched the wires but ill recheck. i'll increase fuel pressure a little too, and give it a try

So the motor ran before you started messing with the Tweecer right? Or did you buy the Tweecer cause you were having engine troubles? Now I'm not to sure how the Tweecer system works, but doesn't it plug inline of the stock computer or does it totally bypass the EEC-IV unit?

OK before we go any farther on the whole Tweecer thing. How long have you had this engine combo together, and has it been tuned and broken in correctly? You say after the engine went it, the motor ran bad and lean? Have you set the correct timing, and fuel pressure with and adjustable regulator? Also did you take the proper steps to break in the cam? I know when I started up my motor for the first time, it ran like shit. The timing was also way off and the stock computer needed to adjust to the changes that were made.

Sorry for the 20 questions, but just trying to narrow things down a bit.

I don't know cause I have no first had expirence but I think the tweecer works inline with the factory computer. What is your cam degreed in at? Also bump the intial timing down to 10-12 degrees BTDC until you get it running.

the tweecer works as an add-on with the computer. you plug it in to the j3 port and your pcm takes calibrations through the tweecer to use. if you disconnect the tweecer from the port, its a stock computer again.

heres what i just tried and results:

checked firing order- just fine

reset fuel pressure one full turn clockwise(increases i believe) - ran for about two seconds then killed again.

replaced battery with one i knew was good - no change

adjusting timing little by little each way - no change(considering the car wont run, i cant tell what the actual degrees are though)

"Before the Tweecer, upon first startup" - the motor ran before i bought the tweecer to the point where it would barely stay running. it had a really low and lumpy idle and sounded like it wanted to kill. in fact in order to start it i would have to press on the gas to get it to start. i set the timing at 10 degrees btdc and it idled bad. then i set if to 15-16 degrees btdc(like my teacher suggested) and ran a lot smoother, but still pretty bad u know. i broke in the cam the exact way my college teacher(who knows everything in the world about engines!) told me to. "once its running, increase rpm's to 2,000ish for 15 - 20 minutes, then slowly let off to idle and turn off." the rest of what he said about cam and engine break in involves driving it. i havent had that liberty yet since it didnt drive then and it wont start now. after talking with 3 or 4 friends of mine they ALL agreed it was most likely my stock computer that was making it run so bad. so that is the reason i bought the tweecer. to recalibrate the stock settings so it would run good and i could drive it. some good that did!

if you need any more info or if you didnt understand that book i just wrote let me know.

:banghead:

what is your mass air set up for, blow through, or draw through, that may have something to do with it. that and how its compatible with your engine setup.

So far so good. You got it to turn over and run for a few seconds. Now try adding a little more fuel pressure. Also, check your throttle body for smooth operation and your intake for vacuum and your exhaust for smell and pressure. Make sure the intake and exhaust are flowing properly. Last but not least, try to reset the computer settings to factory stock. The last step will be most important.
If this doesn't work, start at the top of the electrical list and re-check your alternator.

what is your mass air set up for, blow through, or draw through, that may have something to do with it. that and how its compatible with your engine setup.

blow through/draw through?

its an 80mm vortech maxflow for 42# injectors. the only odd thing i thought of is the mass air meter didnt come with a new box on it. i called the place i ordered it from and he said u use your old one cause the way it works is it fools your computer with the tube inside for 42# injectors.

So far so good. You got it to turn over and run for a few seconds. Now try adding a little more fuel pressure. Also, check your throttle body for smooth operation and your intake for vacuum and your exhaust for smell and pressure. Make sure the intake and exhaust are flowing properly. Last but not least, try to reset the computer settings to factory stock. The last step will be most important.
If this doesn't work, start at the top of the electrical list and re-check your alternator.

higher fuel pressure shouldn't be an issue since ive already added 42# injectors and a 255lph pump. in fact im supposed to run like only 35 psi with my combo. how am i supposed to check my vacuum when my car does run, all the lines are new and most are even clamped on so they wont come off. like i said before i havent changed or touched a thing since it was running besides my gas and hooking up the tweecer(which i have temp. taken off). check the t-body for what? what does the alternator have to do with starting?

What cam are you using? what are the specs on your cam card? It sounds like all the issues you are having are, MAF system inability to handle your cam within the stock parameters. So the Tweecer might be what you need, you just need to get a good baseline set-up before you can fiddle with it.
Oh and please make sure to include Cam Lobe Seperation. If you give me this info I will try to call the boys at Anderson Ford through my work. They will give me some good ideas to help you out. I wish I could help more but I have no real world expirence about the Tweecer. Because AEM is taking forever to come out with there unit for the Mustang. I may go Tweecer to so I'd like to learn about it also.

that would be awesome man, i'll find the cam card and post back in a bit. im using the trick flow stage 2 cam

The cam shouldn't be the problem, cause the Trick Flow stage 2 cam is still streetable. I think your problem will be with the 80mm MAF meter. Though trial and error with a friend of mine, we concluded that the 80mm Pro-M meter she had wouldn't even work on her car, but my 75mm Pro-m worked just fine. Also I have heard numerous people having problems with sample tubes in their MAF meters, that's why I prefer Pro-M. Each unit comes with a calibrated sensor for the correct injectors.

Would it be possible for you to put back in your stock 19 lb-hr injectors and stock MAF meter? Just bump your fuel pressure up to about 50 psi, and see if it runs then?

Oh yeah, I forgot to add to reset your computer after every change like Mendari said.

What cam are you using? what are the specs on your cam card? It sounds like all the issues you are having are, MAF system inability to handle your cam within the stock parameters. So the Tweecer might be what you need, you just need to get a good baseline set-up before you can fiddle with it.
Oh and please make sure to include Cam Lobe Seperation. If you give me this info I will try to call the boys at Anderson Ford through my work. They will give me some good ideas to help you out. I wish I could help more but I have no real world expirence about the Tweecer. Because AEM is taking forever to come out with there unit for the Mustang. I may go Tweecer to so I'd like to learn about it also.

cam lift - .339/.352
valve lift w/ 1.6 rockers - .542/.563

cam timing @ .004 - int. - opens @ 32 deg. btdc, closes @ 74 deg. abdc
cam timing @ .004 - ex. - opens @ 80 deg. bbdc, closes @ 34 deg. atdc

cam timing @ .050 - int. - opens @ 5 deg. btdc, closes @ 39 deg. abdc
cam timing @ .050 - ex. - opens @ 53 deg. bbdc, closes @ 1 deg. btdc
Max lift 107/117

advertised dur. 286/294
dur. @ .050" 224/232

Lobe Seperation - 112 deg.

hiflow50, as far as ive read pro-m only calibrates there mass air meters up to 36# injectors?

check the t-body for what? what does the alternator have to do with starting?
Sorry for being confusing. I meant that you should check the throttle body for movement, make sure it opens, closes and that the cable has the right amount of play. It sounded as if the engine might be starving for air.
For the alternator, the battery will supply power to the starter motor but after that, the alternator sends electrical current to your ignition system/spark plugs. Just make sure that your alternator is producing enough electricity to keep the plugs firing properly.
So far however, the MAF seems to be the favoured suspect.

#1 The TFS 2 Cam shouldn't be an issue with stock MAF.So my guess was wrong thier but I will still ask Anderson Ford
#2 Are 42lb injectors low impedance? I can't remember but for some reason I think they are. If they are that is your problem right there. But some1 needs to confirm this.

#1 The TFS 2 Cam shouldn't be an issue with stock MAF.So my guess was wrong thier but I will still ask Anderson Ford
#2 Are 42lb injectors low impedance? I can't remember but for some reason I think they are. If they are that is your problem right there. But some1 needs to confirm this.
This is a good point as well.

Also, why do you feel the need for 42 lb-hr injectors? Do you have future plans for a power adder?

well i thought about 36 pounders, but i got a great deal on these. i got the set of 8 steeda 42# injectors for $300. Plans for power adder, oh yeah! Either a Twin Cartech or PTK Turbo Kit.

I just dont understand how 'just like that' for no apparent reason it wont start now. It boggles the mind. :cya:

If your 42lbs injectors are low-impedance injectors that is your reason right there. Low-impendace injectors will not work on a stock MAF computer set-up correctly. It will run somewhat but the amounts of fuel you are gettin is all messed up. I think your Tweecer can handle L-I injectors but it needs to be set-up for them. My research will continue

does pro-m make a 80mm bullet for 42# injectors?

maybe i should just switch and see what happens. plus i talked to my engines teacher today and he mentioned several things for my car i never would of thought of to check out. i'll try those any see what happens and then post back.

Ok I talked to the boys at Anderson Ford today. A lot of your problem with the hard starting is the #42 injectors. They are not low-impedance but the are pushing the limits of what a high-impedance injector can do. Most people who have #42 injectors will have a tough time starting thier car. Anderson's PMS has a special fuel start-up setting for starting a car with #42 injectors. But we are trying to figure out what exactly to do with the Tweecer.

A seriour problem you got Stang_racer20.

Listen, might be a stupid suggestion but this is how we "Ukranians" start our Lada's, try to start the car from a roll (you know, call your friends and tell them to give you a push) and then check the engine while its running.

what type of setting are you talking about GTstang. like a different startup fuel table for the tweecer?

the car is an auto ssdisabled, not a manual. and it still wouldnt help any if it was.

what type of setting are you talking about GTstang. like a different startup fuel table for the tweecer?
if it was.

Yea one especially for using #42 injectors which are causing all sorts of problems when starting cars.

u say anderson ford has a table but not for the tweecer?

Anderson Ford has there own unit they have been making for years call the PMS. It's a piggy-back system like the tweecer but has some different things also. But they are cool and know about everything available and we have bought a lot of parts through them so they are helping me out as a favor.

:bananasmi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! :bananasmi

Well i finally got it running again. the spark plugs were so fouled up with gas when i took em out they dripped! so what could of caused that exactly? not only that but 3 of the 8 plugs wires, the silicone plug end had melted the wire to almost nothing. it kinda felt like clay! must of been from the header heat i guess. wow. time for plug wire booties. so im gonna go out and try the tweecer out again and see what i can do. by the way GTstang, is there any way your guy at anderson can send those specs to me or you. the may very well work in my tweecer, ya never know.

i think i still might have some problems with timing though cause as soon as i started it up and it idled i loosend the dis. hold down bolt to adjust timing and no matter what way i turned it, it killed. it only stays running(like shit) right where i had it before turning it. and yes i had the spout connecter out. oh yea, and the tweecer was not connected yet. any thoughts on that?

I'm wanting for the guy ay Anderson to call me back. The plugs drippin with gas are because like i said the stock computer can not handle 42lbs injectors. Be very careful..... Too much gas in your cylinders can cause fuel wash and ruin top your rings.

well to be honest the ywwerent dripping, but the had a nice light coat of gas on the tips. enought to cause a "no fire" issue obviously.

Well they didn't get back to me today and I was too busy to call them back. Are you really in love with those 42lbs injectors???? I mean they can handle 1,000hp FI engines. I don't think you really need them right now and I believe they causing more trouble than they worth.

well what do you recommend for mass air and injector brand for 36# if i were to change over?(C & L, Pro - M, Pro - M Bullet) i still do want an 80mm meter though

Hey stang racer, I was just looking through pics on the web of your car, and your motor looks killer!! What did you use to paint you Trick Flow intake?

Well first I would wait before buying different injectors and MAF. I don't want to see you spend the money on them and find they didn't fix the problem. #36 would be fine even if they are a little too big now they give you room to grow if you went FI or something. For MAF I to like the one's wit changable sample tubes because if you run into a situtation like you are in now.... It saves you money and gives you room for growth agian. Although there are some more accurate MAF designs than the sample tube type.
Just hold off I have been trying to talk to as many people as possible. The Tweecer isn't that old and there really isn't that much widespread knowledge on it. I've looked around Tweecer based Forums and have not been gotten a real definitive answer either. I will keep trying though.

hey thanx HiFlow, they are pretty bad pics too cause it makes the color look way off. its actually a deep blue w. blue metallic flakes, as is the entire block and bracketry. I had them professionally powder coated down at a place by me. They do really good work for good prices. That intake alone only cost me only $80 to do, which included the silver/chrome "Trick Flow".

Hey since when were you a member of MustangWorks, I never ever remember seeing you till just the other day. I assume thats where you saw the pics anyway. I checked out yours too, real sweet man. what kind of plug wires are those you have cause im in need of some new ones. and i thought i was the only other person out there with 95' style 16" Cobra R's. :cheers:

Yeah I noticed the rims too, thought the same thing about being the only one! LOL
I have been a member there since 2000, but haven't posted there in sooo long, mainly cause of this gig.
I had Taylor wires before, but have FRPP wires now. Not sure what I had in the picture you saw.

what size taylors are they, cause ive been looking at the 10.4mm racer ones?

DAMN IT!!!!! The spark plugs are already all fouled up with gas again, what is going on here?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

They were the cheap 8mm ones, not the 10.4mm ones which I thought about as well.

I think GTStang is onto something here. I still think your current injectors are way too big for your motors needs. We'll have to see what he comes up with today.

Well, IMO i would put back all the stock stuff you had on it when it was running and see if it works, if it does then i would, one by one, put back the mods you have and see which one messes up the whole thing. But probably its not as easy as it sounds, right?

SSdisabled, i built the engine with all its mods as a whole and it ran. i have not changed a single mod since then.

I think its either one of two things: The mass air on my car now is a Vortech and is perhaps meant only for a supercharged setup, or like you said the injectors are giving too much fuel. Ive had my engine combo on a computer dyno though that measured it at 500 fwhp so i thought it would be better to have too much fuel rather than too little where it would be starved. i guess it was still too much. the only thing that sucks though is i have no more money now for a while. oh well i wont have it running by the time it snows anyways. im really having major withdrawls here though. its been a year now!

:crying:

any final thoughts on my car problems before i declare her dead for the winter?

Final Suggestion.... throw they stock 19lbs injectors and stock MAF. You car will idle fine with these... if it doesn't then fix that first... once that is done then go back to the 42lbs. But if it won't idle ok with 19lbs something besides injectors is wrong.

Edited: This was all the Great Mustang Mod Hi-Flows idea I stole from pages earlier.

yeah but the 19# injectors arent gonna supply enough fuel to keep it running?

19 will give it plenty of fuel to idle and will only be lean way up in the RPM range. This is just to remove the issue of the #42 injectors as a problem and if there is another problem it will be easier to recognize with this set-up.

well ill give it a try as soon as theres a nice day again. cause its like 40 degrees in my garage these days. damn wisconsin weather!

LOL I hear you it ain't much warmer here in Mass now. I just bought a woodstove to try to keep my garage warm in the winter.

Would it be possible for you to put back in your stock 19 lb-hr injectors and stock MAF meter? Just bump your fuel pressure up to about 50 psi, and see if it runs then?

Humm, I guess it was over looked when I suggested it. :icon16:

No it wasn't overlooked by me. At the time I was trying to think of something to so without him having to do the pain in the ass work of swapping injectors. But I should have credited you oh great 1. Look above I have fixed my ways.

sorry HiFlow i did see your response before, but just like GTStang said i was really looking for ANYthing else to check before fucking with changing out the injectors. thanks though bro :cheers: , but i put her to sleep for the winter. :crying:

LOL I hear you it ain't much warmer here in Mass now. I just bought a woodstove to try to keep my garage warm in the winter.
sounds romantic - a little snow outside, a little woodstove near the front fender, an open hood, grease everywhere, fleetwood mac smoothly playing over the radio - some warm brie, a wool sweater and the gtstang's legendary Mustang.

eh - give me jessica simpson anyday.

eh - give me jessica simpson anyday.
Hell yeah!!! I'd take that dumb blonde anyday! She's F'ing hot!!!!!!!

Hell yea she is hot.... Ya know every1 bitches that she is dumb as shit now that, that show Newlyweds is out.... But I gotta be honest I like it better that she is retarded :iceslolan

One Last Thought! So keep the hormones down, lol!

When I hooked up my aftermarket auto meter gauges I removed the stock senders to replace them with the autometer ones right. Now being that these are different senders than stock i assumed they wouldnt work with the stock gauges properly so I left the stock wires off. Do you think that effected my stock computer in any way since it couldnt read coolant temperature or oil pressure? Would that effect running conditions, such as lopey idle or a "rich condition"!!? Doesnt the computer use ECT in its fuel table? Any thoughts?

I can't remember which guages you did but I know the ECU does use the coolant sensor in it's calculations. So not having it hooked up could cause issue but I don't think it will at idle. But I'd hook it back up anyway

Did you check the terminals at the fuel injector connector and especially the terminal ends for a soild connection on the fuel injector pin itself.