spray making up for boost?

ok, I have been wanting to build a NA crvtec for forever now, and actually have the block and the pistons and most of the money saved up. I am leaving to go fishing for a couple maybe 3 months and when I get back I wont have to work and Ill have plenty of money to start my long-awaited project integra.

anyways, I had always planned to go all motor, and I saw that CRVTEC pushed the crx that looks to have funl interior still to a high 11's http://www.b20vtec.com/FastestNAB20vtecs.html
and it doesnt look like its all out built except for a real hgih cr.

now I really only wanna hit 12's even a mid-high 12 would be fine. and I dont really wanna boost, but IM afraid that with the extra weight on the teg I wont be able to get there without FI.

this is my plan
B20b w/ crower stroker kit/JE pistons 11:1(2.26L)
blockguard
ported/polished B16a head with crower stage 2 cams, dual springs/titanium retainers and pro flo valves
ARP rod bolts/head studs
skunk2 intake manifold
BBK 70mm TB
AEM V2
DC 4-1 one peice
AEM fuel rail/filter/regulator
B&M fuel pump
RC engineering injectors(550cc?)
ACT XACT prolite 8.8 lb flywheel
ACT XTSS clutch (would the XXR6 be streetable?)
Y21 tranny w/ quaiffe.
STRONG axles
AEM cam gears/pullies
UR lightened crank pully
crank girdle
hondata S200
MSD SCI
irridium plugs
NX pro shark kit(75HP)


thats pretty much what I want to do, but I got a few questions/concerns about the setup. at the track Ill probably be revvingthis thing up to like 8k-8500 RPMS down the strip, and revving that high with a block not meant for it, and a blockguard in there, I think it is going to get pretty hot. I was thinking of going with a cooler thermostat and an external oil cooler. aqnd I know I have to have a ITR oil pump to ba able to feed the vtec, but will the oil pump be up to the task of flowing oil through the engine/activating vtec and pushing it thorugh an external cooler? if not who makes high flow oil filters for hondas?

another thing is, about the clutch. I tried going to see how much torque the XTSS can hold but cant find it on the site, and I know if I go to the MAXX plate I have to get the racing 4 or 6 puck discs. would the car be a real big pain in the ass to drive daily with a XXR6 clutch?

and the tranny, will a tranny that cam with a 160HP engine hold the power necessary for a 12 second car? what If I went with a ITR tranny?
and since it is goping to be my daily driver I actually wouldnt mind going with the LS tranny for freeway cruising. how much slower would the car actually be with the taller gearing? a couple tenths of a second? cuz I could deal with that. and would a LS tranny hold up to these demands? who makes strengthened gear sets/trannies for the B series?

one more thing is the juice. I saw that the NX pro shark kit says 200-600 HP, but could I get the kit and then just get 4 more sharx nozzlesto only spray 75HP worth. or do I gotta get a completely different kit. and the hondata says it controls a dry kit by saying when the solenoid opens and you can adjust how much extra fuel it injects, if i wanted to use it for a direct port wet system, then could I just choose when to open the fuel and N2O solenoids and just say 0 fuel enrichment or what?

also, on the streets I will probably shift at like 4 grand when cruising, and even if I get into a street race with the beast, Ill shift at 7k and not spray just to try and lengthen its life a bit. unless a Z06 pulls up next to me, then its 9 grand shifts on the bottle! :evillol:

anyways, I wont be doing this until probably early next year, which is when I plan to return. and when on the boat ill be able to check the web every once in a while I was told by a crewmember. I just want to get everyones oppinions on this setup, and if you think I would be able to hit high 12's on the track using street tires(on slicks runnin high 11's low 12's I still wouldnt beat 1/4 of the guys on slicks at the track around here)

anything on my wish list youd change if you were going ot build this?

oh also forgot to ask, anyone know how much it costs to get your block sleeved?

all i can say is WOW. that is a nice set up. i would not go with the 6-puck. daily driving from what i heard sucks. i do not know from experience. what about a valve job and port and polish that intake manifold? aslong as the intake throttlebody and manifold are port-matched, then its all cool. well, i would go with the ITR tranny it would be better suited for the higher revs. good luck with ur project man, and show us pics when u r done!

I would keave out the stroker kit it will make your r/s ratio worse and the motor will not hold up to 8500 rpm. Also I would go with the LS tranny you will have the power and torque to make good use of the taller gears, actually i think it will be faster with the LS tranny. And I would say go alittle smaller with the fuel injectors 550cc is too big more like 310cc or so and good tunning with the hondata. And as far as the hondata comtrolling the juice I would just not program it into it at all, because of it being a wet kit. And as far as the oil cooler goes the ITR oil pump will be fine the ITR came stock with a oil cooler. You can pick these up on the web like at thepartstrader.com and other swap places and ebay sometimes. Also I would replace the valve guides also while the head is at the machine shop. Get some crower rods and stay with the 11.1 cr and you could easily squeeze more than a 75 shot I wouls say 125-150 and you will be way into the 12's with good driving :iceslolan But yes 75 will be fine and consrevative for the build that you have planned.

1. Skip the stroker kit. I have yet to hear anything good about those and you wont need it to make power.
2. I dont think that block guards do much. Just get it sleeved while you are doing all these serious mods.
3. Skip the ARP rod bolt idea and just get Eagle rods, they come with them.
4. I recommend a Walbro 255 high out put fuel pump from auto performance engineering (http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/). Everybody I know, both Honda and non Honda, use these pumps.
5. RC 440's should be plenty fine for this setup.
6. I have a 6puck clutch on my daily driver :naughty: and its not bad at all.
7. I am using a CTR N1 crank pulley, I got for $115 shipped, and it is really light. However, it is only a one belt pulley so no A/C or P/S.
8. Dont mess with the SCI, its kiddy stuff. Get a Digital 6 and Blaster SS coil, ecspecially since you would like to spray.
9. A b20 and ITR oil pump have the same flow rates. Also, as stated before, I would not mess with a block guard.
10. There are plenty of big guys, even quicker than 12's that are using oem trannies. You wont have any problems.
11. On the nitrous, I dont know anything about the NX kits. I would just get a direct port wet kit and not worry about Hondata controlling it, much simipler.
12. You are going to want slicks. You will be wasting your time if you try running on street tires, trust me :biggrin:
13. I believe that a sleeved block runs about 800-1000 depending where you get it done. It would be well worth it and could stand anything you throw at it. Plus you can get it punched out to 85mm.

Wish I could go fishing for 3 months. :mad: :smile:

it took me almost 3 months to get a spot on this boat, and that was with the cheif engineer putting in a good word for me, BIG waiting list.

anyways, I typed blockguard in the list and then I cactually didnt write sleeved block until I was done then remembered and edited it to put it in and forgot to take out the blockgaurd, and I read that with the stroker kit they move the pin boss up higher in the piston for longer rods, I still dont know what the ratio is exactly, havent got the email back from crower. I also have 84mm 11:1 pistons for the B20, I asked crower if i could use them and thats when they told me the stroker kit comes wiht pistons with the modded pin boss. at leats now that IM not getting the stroker kit I can use them. bored to 85mm though I have an extra 47cc more displacement, I hear the 38cc the B18B1 has over the B18C's is an advantage so Im guessing this is a nice improvement, but if you dont think I need to be 2.26L vs. stock 1.97L is fine, is 2.02L necessary?

and I am gonna go LS now I think. and 6 puck unless someone else who has one hates it. using that MAXX pressure plate every day is probably gonna make my left leg like a tree trunk though.

I am pretty sure the pro shark kit is a direct port. it says 4-8 cylinders and come s with 8 nozzles so I figured thats what it was. does any wet/direct port kit come with some sort of computer that I can choose how much throttle, what RPM's, and minimum speed, I figure I could use a WOT switch and then a window switch for the first two, but I dont wanna accidentally spin up to 4k and then have the N2O kick in and shoot me right to the rev limiter. I figure that if at 7k your at about 30 with the LS gearing then I wouldnt want the juice to kick in til at least 20mph in first, just so I dont have more power than traction. and would a 75HP push me into 12's when I get the driving part down, or would I ned upwards of a 100 shot?

Ill probably go with 440's just to be safe.

I dont really care about AC too much, but I definately want PS, doesnt take any power when going in a straight line anyways, does it? and it is just so much nicer having it for driving slowly through small towns and manuevering in tight places.

I also put port/polish in the list, and for the valve job, I thought the 5 angle valve job was working on the valves themselves to make the flow over them better, but I am getting the pro-flo valves. and for port matching it all, I could bolt the TB to the IM and open it and trace the opening to the IM and then get the dremel or something and taper it form the 70mm back to stock I.D. within a couple inches, and the same at the IM/head joint as well? Ill probably go ahead and do it to the header while I am at it.

and for the street tires, I saw a crx that ran a 13 flat, and he was on street tires, and I never heard no woosh. I will get some slicks to get the absolute best out of the car I can, but I would rather go up agianst other tegs/SRT4's STI's EVO's and stuff like that instead of the chevy luv with the built 350, or 9 second nova I saw there last time. I raced a 641/2 (dont know why with something that classic you make a racecar instead of show car out of) mustang in my hatch and it wasnt even funny, I took off and he smoked me right from the start, he kinda lost it for a second, fishtailed a bit, then you hear that deep rumble and hes off again, I think he ran a low 11 to my mid 16.lol and that was on street tires.

the B&M fuel pump is 255 LPH as well. I might use my stock oil pump then if B20 and B18C5's flow the same, anyone else confirm this fact?

Im gonna start ooking into different ignitions now.

also the stroker kit came with a forged steel crank, should I still get a better crank or are hondas pretty good, I never realy hear of them being upgraded much.

just after I hit submit I remembered that my cars speedo is from the tranny anyways so even if I was peelig out, it will tell me how fast I am going, not my car, so what I said about no N20 before 20mph at around 4-5k in first, well if I peel out up to 4-5k it would think I am going about 20 so my idea wont work. Ill just set the window a bit higher like maybe a couple hundred RPM's below where the engine drops to when I shift, so that everytime I shift and get back on the gas it sprays again, and see how the launches go, then maybe lower the point. is it really bad to be spraying for about 11 seconds at a time?

and what would happen to my VERY expensive engine if.. oh lets say I miss shift, and then the comp tells it to spray since I hit tha gas and WHAM, right to the limiter. is there a way to make the limiter a spark cut and not a fuel cut. cuz even though I know air isnt flammable, N2O is right? and then I got N2O plus all the incoming air wiht no fuel and then a spark, thats a REALLY lean combustion. :eek:

You will be fine with the stock crank and they move the boss's up on the pistons b/c if you didn't the piston would hit the head. And the best thing for nitrous control IMO is the Jacobs Nitrous Mastermind. I have one and I love it is is fully adjustable, you can adjust what rpm to activate the N20 and how much and it adds nitrous based on rpm and not time like other controllers, it also has a feature where you can set it to automatically retard your timming when the N20 is sprayed.

so like the higher the RPM's the more it sprays, that what you mean by RPM's not time. im gonna have to go looking for that mastermind now.

and I knew that a stock length rod/piston combo would hit the head on a stroker crank, but I figured the custom length rod and piston especially for the stroker kit would make it so the R/S didnt go to hell. oh well. if i dont get it is is like 2800 I have to spend on other stuff and 4-6 months delivery time I dont have to wait.

also, do you know who's cam gears are the lightest?

N20 is not flammable. According to ESPN's NHRA program, and a few science teachers I spoke to a couple of years ago.

NHRA had a spot in between races, where they took a look at nitrous oxide systems. The commentator said something along these lines: 'Contrary to popular belief, nitrous is NOT flammable, although if the bottle is damaged, a lot of pressure would be pushing outwards..'

The science teacher I spoke to said something along the same lines: "Nitrous isn't flammable, but if the container it's in is punctured, or damaged, then it'd possibly result in some kind of explosion from all of that pressure being released so quickly".

Besides, N20 isn't much different than pressurized air in the first place. After all, it's got an oxygen atom in it, and if the nitrous isn't flammable, nothing in the mixture is.

and what would happen to my VERY expensive engine if.. oh lets say I miss shift, and then the comp tells it to spray since I hit tha gas and WHAM, right to the limiter. is there a way to make the limiter a spark cut and not a fuel cut.
Thats what the MSD DIgital 6 is for. Read up on it on MSD's site, its perfect for nitrous.

Dont mess with the stroker kit, thats too much money. The only thing that you could use it for would be to brag to the ricers. :lol2:

With the nitrous mastermind it will stop the nitrous flow before it cuts the spark for the revlimiter which it has a knob for as well, but it requires an aftermarket ignition system. Also you can hook up a hobbs switch to it as well to cut the nitrous flow if the fuel pressure falls below a set (by you) psi. It also has a knob to adjust the ignition timming . Mine will go to 15 degrees retareded. Also mine came with the hobbs switch and now i have two LOL. It is a great controller you will be happy with it. And be sure to get the one part# 383456, because they make them for 4cyl, 6cyl,&8cyl. And the 8 & 6 cyl won't work for a 4 cyl .

yeah, I was now looking towards the MSD 6AL w/ blaster HCV coil, and from what i read i assume the soft touch rev limiter is where it cuts spark, and I looked at the mastermind. do you set what % of the full shot it starts at? and how long does it take before you are getting the full 100hp shot, or whatever size you chose?

and so let me get this straight, I will be able to set the N20 to stop flowing if my fuel pressure drops and I will also be able to give a RPM that the N20 will stop flowing as well as a RPM the spark stops sparking.

soI could have it liek N20 only if fuel pressure >65 p.s.i. and N20 cut @ say 8400, then spark cut @ 8500, then fuel cut @ 8600 or something like that, so if I missed a shift it would stop nitrous then spark then fuel, is that a good order or does it even matter considering N20 isnt flammable at all? but if it is a wet kit and it only cuts fuel, with the N20 extra fuel is going in without the ecu injecting it so it will still fire unless i cut one or the other; spark or N20 as well. man this is gonna take some good learning before I will have this thing setup right. I think I am comprehending everything im being told but if I say something that sounds just stupid tell me. and the stroker kit is not on the wishlist no more.

an oh yeah, thanks for all the help so far. :iceslolan

The way it works is you have 4 knobs on the mastermind the first knob controls ignition, the 2nd controls the rpm you want the nitrous to start flowing, 3rd knob controls what rpm you want 100% power from the nitrous, and 4th knob controls the rev limiter. Ok lets start with the 1st knob you set how many degrees you want it to retard the timming when the nitrous is activated. The 2nd knob you set at the rpm you want the nitrous to start. The 3rd knob you set what rpm you want 100% power, anfd the 3rd knob you set the rev limiter it goes to 10K rpm.
Ok now lets say you are going to run a 100hp shot and you want the timming to be retarded 3 degrees and you want good traction so you want it to be at full 100 hp at 6K rpm. So here is what you do set the timming knob to 3 set the start nitrous flow knob to say 3K rpm then set the 3rd knob to 6Krpm and then say you have a 8500 rev limit so set the 4th knob to 8500. Now what will happen is that the nitrous will start tpo flow at 3K rpm and it will be 50hp (50% of 100hp) and the ignition will be retarded 3 degrees and then when you hit 6K the nitrous will be flowing at 100hp (100%) and then at about 8400 rpm it will cut the nitrous and fuel solenoids both b/c it controls both solenoids not just the nitrous solenoid, then at 8500 it will cut spark and you will not go above 8500. Now the progressive part from 3K to 6K will be increseing from 3K (50hp) and 6K (100hp) so at say 4500 you will be flowing at 75hp. Do you see what i am saying? It is kinda confusing at first but once you have the mastermind infront of you and you set it up with test ligts to see how it works it will all become crystal clear. I would suggest setting it up with a test light b/c if you have something set wrong you could do damage to the motor. let me know if you are still confused.

ok, I get it, so then I dont even have to worry about setting rev limters on either ignition or ECU then.

Well youi have to raise the rev limiter on the ecu or it willnot rev past the stock limiter but that can be easily done. What year is your teg? I migt be able to burn you a chip that keeps the stock fuel and ignition maps but raises the rev limiter if your teg is OBD1. Let me know, if you need help with it.

dont have a teg right now, but I will when i get back, and most likely a 94 or 95. seeing as on average they have more miles on them and are cheaper. I knew I would have to set the cut on the others above the MM cut, but wouldntreally care where, as long as its above 8500. and why do i want to kep the stock fuel/ignition maps? I am going with the hondata S200 so that I can tune those. or you mean you can give me a base to start from???

and even if I get a OBD2 teg, cant I get a OBD1 vtec ecu and an OBD1 vtec head and harness and go to OBD1 like that? is OBD2 as bad as some people make it sound. Ive heard it doesnt really matter and i heard its lots easier to mod with OBD1.

I got one more question, I had an

now say I wanted to do the same thing as first stated, hondata/sleeved block/forged internals/big shot of nitrous/all that other junk I listed but started with an H23/H22 head/ecu and it was in an accord sedan. could I come out with similar timeslips? cuz I like the style of a 4 door accord and the practicality of having a sedan for hauling people around/ being comfortable on long trips. but seeing as a stock accord sedan runs like 17's vs the tegs stock 15's.

even though the GSR's even LS's have way better power/weight ratio(LS has 3 HP less and about 400 pounds less) that may be solved with the H22a swap into an accord(LS-about 18.6 lbs/HP, and H22 accord-about 15 lbs/HP), so with the better power/weight ratio and the extyra torque of 2.2 vs 1.8 liters, the accord should come out on top right? but what do accords run with the H22a in it. I saw one at the track once, a 95 coupe, and a H22a with I/H/E but it sounded like it had a million miles on it, sounded like a total heap of shit. ran a 16.5 so I came to the conclusion the car was so old and blew up on their trip home or this guy just DID NOT know how to drive.


so say I swapped in a H23(heard the H will bolt up to the stock accord tranny, Iwouldnt think so seeing as its H and F families but is it true?)and swapped on a H22 head and ecu, adn did the same P&P head, N20, cams, MSD, etc...

could I pull a low 13 in an accord? I know that the accord is like the worst choice if you want a really fast car, since its got all that weight, but it would be nice to have a very fast ca, and still the comfort of a 4 door accord, although the teg does definately have its comfort.