High end name, low end car

Well, this seems to have some meat on it so let's get into it. Some feel that car manufacturers are selling out by producing lower end models. For example, Porsche has the Boxster, Infiniti had the G20, Lexus had the the LS250. And I recently seen a Mercedes that looked like a Hyundai Excel. Admitedly, it gave me the creeps. Some "purist" believe that as a reputable car maker, you should focus on a few top models for the sake of the image. I don't think that always good business. What you say?

i say a jaguar x type is an overpriced ford taurus wth a silver jaguar emblem which is all you're really paying for. i think it's stupid for such a well respescted name to make a low end car. i can't count the number of times i've been driving in traffic and seen a porsche tail just to roll up on it and say "oh, it's just a boxster". it's just to make money. a car maker like that shouldn't make a car to increase revenue, do it to show everyone what the company is capable of. car makers should be enthusiasts first and salesmen second.

i'm not saying cars shouldn't be cheap, but when you think porsche you think exotic, you think hyundai you think economy. stick to what you're known for. i wouldn't buy a low end porsche just like i wouldn't buy a twin turbo v6 daewoo.

I will admit that before today, I knew nothing more about Porsche other than the words fast and expensive. So I went to KBB and did the look up thing. There are only 2 models of Boxster and 2 models of Cayenne. The are 7 models of 911. That fact alone tells me that the 911 is the main stay of the line and the focus of the company. Then I looked at the price to power ratio. Porsche's are not cheap. The low end boxster is still $42,000 with a 2.7L 225hp engine. For $52,000, you can get the 3.2L Boxster with 258hp. That is not far away from the 911 Targa with 320hp 3.6L, though $24K cheaper. The Cayenne has a v8 and weighs in at 340hp for 55K. Ok, This is the same size engine as a Q, with the same power for 10 grand less. Or you can get the turbo model for $90,000 with a wopping 450hp. Now that's a SUV with balls. To me, if anything, Porsche has raised the bar on what Low end models are supposed to be.

I think the base model Boxster is overprice at $42,000. It reads like a $25,000 car to me, no different from a Z3 or a S2000. For same money, buy the Z, have it supercharged and run with the Targa with under $40K. But for the sake of the Porsche name, the boxster has to carry a heavy price tag. I think there still needs to be a boxster in the line up, but bottom one needs to go. Score one for the purist.

creating cars that are more for the masses degrades the reputation of the company, preiod. more accessible(read: cheaper) models mean more models sold, which means we see more on the street. if a vehicle is common, it is NOT prestigious. thus, as companies bring cheaper models to the market, they sell more cars at first, because those cars still carry the holy name. after 5-10 years, nobody cares anymore, cause they're all over the place. voila, brand recognition destroyed. and then, they have to compete with people who know what they are doing in that market, like toyota and honda. it spells disaster from a business standpoint, at least in the long run. even if you choose to buy on of their vehicles, you're getting screwed, cause you're buying a nameplate that got its recognition based on very expensive cars that can perform, while you are buying an overpriced, underperforming vehicle. (ex. BMW 3 series, Merc C class vs. G35) it was bound to catch up to them, and it is finally starting to

While I agree in part, that theory works if you, the auto maker, never plan to improve, change or create new cars. You cannot rest on your reputation in a fickle country like this one. We always want the newest, hottest, hippest thing. BMW isn't losing market share, or prestige, because of cheaper cars. They are losing out because they haven't kept the interest of the market. They have been building the same old thing for a decade. That why the new 745i body style was so controversial. It was way new, but it was also way overdue. That's why they have done the same with the 5 series. That why the 6 series is coming back. They are in desperate need of new blood. Cheap cars or not, if you don't capture the interest of those who can afford to plunk down $70+ on a car, you're still dead. As a consumer, I have no reason to spend that kind of money if the cool-car-of-the-year only cost $30K. Adapt, die or be assimilated.

Ultimately to the uppermost extent you're right about the Boxster, it is way overpriced and the Z has been proven to outaccelerate and outperform it for the money.

I can't see any reason to justify buying that car, nor can I see any reason to justify buying any BMW below an M3 because any 3 series below that is way overpriced and in comparison you can get a G35 Sedan that can and will mirror the performance of it's lower 3 series for $10,000 cheaper.

In the end all you are paying for is the nameplate like BP said earlier.

On the other end of that spectrum while we're at it about manufacturers, what the hell is Nissan waiting for?

By this I mean when are they going to get into the low buck, high powered street racing machines like EVO, WRX and SRT or are they?

They just woke a couple years ago, so they are having to play catchup with rest of the market. That how you get a all new altima, maxima, G35, FX and M45 in a short span. But on the low end is the Sentra SE- R spec V, with a 175hp, 6sp manual, 17" rims and oversized front discs. If I remember correctly, I think it has a big muffler/tailpipe on as well. While the numbers are not impressive, yet, the cars is just under 18k. There is already a body kit for it and a supercharger (bring it up to 220hp).

you forgot to mention the spec v also comes with full brembo brakes one of the only cars in its class next to the Focus SVT.

you forgot to mention the spec v also comes with full brembo brakes one of the only cars in its class next to the Focus SVT.

You see, that's what I'm talking about. This car is tricked out from the factory; open door, insert homey. Brakes, suspension, tires, exhaust and tranny are race ready. The only decision you need to make is boosted, blown or Nitros cause it don't need anything else. Nissan did it's homework and gave the people what they wanted.

Our favorite chew toy, the boxster, should have had a unique body style instead to trying to be a 911 clone. This, I beleive, is a mistake bigger than the price. If the car had more power (270hp) and was a baby exotic, like the Acura NSX, at the right price (45-50k) it would stimulate the public interest. Build 'em for 2 years then pull the plug and do something different. It gets people in the showroom. And while over exposure makes you common, under exposure makes you vanish. You need people to remember who you are, so they don't go buy a Viper.

You see, that's what I'm talking about. This car is tricked out from the factory; open door, insert homey. Brakes, suspension, tires, exhaust and tranny are race ready. The only decision you need to make is boosted, blown or Nitros cause it don't need anything else. Nissan did it's homework and gave the people what they wanted.
you have a good point but i can't see why anyone would even buy an SE-R spec-v. i'd just go pick up a 4th gen maxima. they get the same gas mileage, the max has more hp and is torquier. both have 4 doors and weigh almost the same. for the $10-$12K you'd save you could hook the maxima up way better than the se-R. My 95 maxima laid a whoopin on an SE-R 6 speed and all i had at the time was an intake. and can someone please tell me why the 2.5L 4 cylinder redlines 500 rpm lower than the 3.0 V6? my point being i agree with bk2k, where is our turbo sport compact? even saturn got the jump on nissan with that, what's that nonsense? they should give us the S14/15 silvia's or bluebirds. I'd take something SR20det powered over an srt-4 or cavalier turbo, or saturn turbo coupe, which all plan to use the same engine, and if it was priced right i'd take it over an evo or STI.

my point being i agree with bk2k, where is our turbo sport compact? even saturn got the jump on nissan with that, what's that nonsense? they should give us the S14/15 silvia's or bluebirds. I'd take something SR20det powered over an srt-4 or cavalier turbo, or saturn turbo coupe, which all plan to use the same engine, and if it was priced right i'd take it over an evo or STI.

Because of the price, the STI and the EVO may have played themselves. They crossed over into "big boy" town, with Audi, BMW, Nissan Z, Cobra SVT. These (STI, EVO) are low end car aspring to high end cars. And while I enjoy watching Audi TT or BMW 3 whatever get whooped by them, many would rather buy something other than a Subaru or a Mitsubishi. Think about it. $30K for a compact sedan?

The opposite end of the lower end car theory is trying to rise above your status without paying your dues. If your going to climb into the true sports car arena, you better bring a 2-door. Also, too many tricks and noone will take you seriously. It show that (Subaru/Mitsu) can't build a good engine. They can build a mediocre engine and trick the hell out of it.

Because of the price, the STI and the EVO may have played themselves. They crossed over into "big boy" town, with Audi, BMW, Nissan Z, Cobra SVT. These (STI, EVO) are low end car aspring to high end cars. And while I enjoy watching Audi TT or BMW 3 whatever get whooped by them, many would rather buy something other than a Subaru or a Mitsubishi. Think about it. $30K for a compact sedan?

The opposite end of the lower end car theory is trying to rise above your status without paying your dues. If your going to climb into the true sports car arena, you better bring a 2-door. Also, too many tricks and noone will take you seriously. It show that (Subaru/Mitsu) can't build a good engine. They can build a mediocre engine and trick the hell out of it.

:shakehead you better do a little more research before you post something like this. STI and EVO are serious performance vehicles from companies who have huge credibility as Rally Car makers. EVO is worshipped as a god in other countries (this is the 8th iteration of the Evo, afterall) and Subaru has been making world class rally cars for awhile. a 2.0 liter that makes 270 HP with 22 psi is mediocre??? i don't get that statement. i would drive either of these, for sure, especially with AWD...these two can hang with just about anything in the twisties, have neck snapping acceleration, and incredible braking power
Subaru and Mitsu know their shit when it comes to "compact sedans"

:shakehead you better do a little more research before you post something like this. STI and EVO are serious performance vehicles from companies who have huge credibility as Rally Car makers. EVO is worshipped as a god in other countries (this is the 8th iteration of the Evo, afterall) and Subaru has been making world class rally cars for awhile. a 2.0 liter that makes 270 HP with 22 psi is mediocre??? i don't get that statement. i would drive either of these, for sure, especially with AWD...these two can hang with just about anything in the twisties, have neck snapping acceleration, and incredible braking power
Subaru and Mitsu know their shit when it comes to "compact sedans"

Rally cars are going attract certain kinds of buyers, and that's what we are talking about - buyers. The cars have a very specific style suited to what they are built for, small, compact, powerful and durable. But when cross the threshold of $30K, in the minds of American consumers, the expectations change. This is where the numbers may not as important as perception. We've come full circle. Originally, we were into car with prestigous names making lower end cars to expand market share. Now we have Rally cars entering the sports car market. In the final analysis, I beleive that it still comes down to understanding the buyer.

On the STI engine thing, I was referring the 2.0 engine without forced induction. I'm old school, Turbo/SC are still add ons in my mind. My first car was 1970 Chrysler New Yorker with a 440ci V8 and a 4 barrel carb. Engine=Block w/the factory basics.

you have a good point but i can't see why anyone would even buy an SE-R spec-v. i'd just go pick up a 4th gen maxima. they get the same gas mileage, the max has more hp and is torquier. both have 4 doors and weigh almost the same. for the $10-$12K you'd save you could hook the maxima up way better than the se-R. My 95 maxima laid a whoopin on an SE-R 6 speed and all i had at the time was an intake. and can someone please tell me why the 2.5L 4 cylinder redlines 500 rpm lower than the 3.0 V6? my point being i agree with bk2k, where is our turbo sport compact?.

I would have to agree. I rather have the 4th gen but the thing is the V-spec it has better handling and better brakes, and I do like that Skyline like interior. Now here a nice idea get 4th with the 5th gen ecu and intak or even a 3.0 5th gen with the skyline style seats, brembo brakes of the V-spec if it does fit and work better then you got your self a nice ride.

That is a good point Nissan has no turbo sports compact. The closest we have is the 240SX but no turbo. But then there is the engine swap you can do on the 240SX and Altima's where you can put the Slivia engine in there but that not really from factory. Nissan where the hell are you on a turbo compact like the NEON SRT-4 and, EVO, STI and cars like that?

:shakehead you better do a little more research before you post something like this. STI and EVO are serious performance vehicles from companies who have huge credibility as Rally Car makers. EVO is worshipped as a god in other countries (this is the 8th iteration of the Evo, afterall) and Subaru has been making world class rally cars for awhile. a 2.0 liter that makes 270 HP with 22 psi is mediocre??? i don't get that statement. i would drive either of these, for sure, especially with AWD...these two can hang with just about anything in the twisties, have neck snapping acceleration, and incredible braking power
Subaru and Mitsu know their shit when it comes to "compact sedans"

http://www.carbuyermagazine.com/roadtests/issue_07/subaru_impreza_sti.shtml
http://www.forbes.com/2002/04/15/0415feat_5.html

These reviews/figures may clarify the point I trying to make.

It show that (Subaru/Mitsu) can't build a good engine. They can build a mediocre engine and trick the hell out of it.
I dunno about Mistu but sorry Subaru dosen't make mediocre engine. If I am not mistaken the STI and the WRX and many other Subaru's are all using a form of the Boxter engine found in Porsches.

I dunno about Mistu but sorry Subaru dosen't make mediocre engine. If I am not mistaken the STI and the WRX and many other Subaru's are all using a form of the Boxter engine found in Porsches.
:1: not to metion the STI has nitrous injector ports right on the manifold stock, meaning it's capable of taking shots of nitrous without modification.
and the mitsubishi engine is taking 19lbs of boost stock. if you put that much boost on a stock oz lancer engine, it'd blow. they're both good strong engines and an SR belongs up there with them.

SR? You mean the Silvia engine?

SR? You mean the Silvia engine?
among other applications, yes.

then you forgot to mention the RB engines in the skyline man.

Well, this seems to have some meat on it so let's get into it. Some feel that car manufacturers are selling out by producing lower end models. For example, Porsche has the Boxster, Infiniti had the G20, Lexus had the the LS250. And I recently seen a Mercedes that looked like a Hyundai Excel. Admitedly, it gave me the creeps. Some "purist" believe that as a reputable car maker, you should focus on a few top models for the sake of the image. I don't think that always good business. What you say?


That is how the market is right now.
There is just no chance for survival if only top models are offered. Unless it is backed by a big auto company / group
Like Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and Buggati, they all got a company / group to back them up.
Although Porsche is actually standing alone, but they are expanding their market with new, cheaper models that would fit better with the whole auto market.
They are also working closely with the VW group, as we can see from the Cayenne, after sharing chassis, and now soon to offer a 3.2 V6 from the golf R32 / audi TT 3.2